Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: higheye on January 29, 2011, 02:25:45 PM

Title: Stick Stir
Post by: higheye on January 29, 2011, 02:25:45 PM
This is my first post on the forum, something has became a real bummer to me as of late and I just wanted to see what others opinion of it was.  I have noticed a large increase in pilots using completely impossible aircraft manuvers to avoid a six shot.  Now I know that noone wants to be shot down in here, but when pilots are doing manuvers that no sane pilot would ever attempt on a regular basis (even in an Extra 300) there seems to be a problem.  Doing these stick stirring manuvers just shows a lack of, or even an attempt to learn air combat manuvers.  I strongly feel that there should be a way for the combat to be more realistic, in the long run it would mean more fun for all.  <Salute> Aces High nation, and thanks.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: Dichotomy on January 29, 2011, 02:36:33 PM
howdy high...

might want to toss out some jackal repellent and a flameproof suit because I can hear them coming ;)

Welcome to the boards regardless.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: Yeager on January 29, 2011, 02:36:48 PM
they are just frustrated noobs.  cut em some slack, fall back a bit and then whack em when they come out of the seizure.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: Mar on January 29, 2011, 02:44:07 PM
This is my first post on the forum

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,254067.msg3135132.html#msg3135132

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,284749.msg3605083.html#msg3605083

:headscratch: :neener: :bolt:


Seriously though, I personally have enough trouble with my aim without that crap, but measures against it have already been taken and it seems anything else risks interfering with normal flight.

Just remember that flying in Aces High is better than putting your life on the line for real.

<<S>> Higheye
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: FLS on January 29, 2011, 03:01:35 PM
There's a lot of things no sane pilot would try unless somebody was shooting at them.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: lulu on January 29, 2011, 03:11:02 PM
Stick stirring ... what is it exactly?

Any film?

 :salute
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: BnZs on January 29, 2011, 03:11:57 PM
I wish something could be done about the very rapid alternating of positive and negative Gs. Rolling and skidding the plane seems plausible, but "porpoising" between blackout and redout?
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: MachFly on January 29, 2011, 03:18:16 PM
This is my first post on the forum, something has became a real bummer to me as of late and I just wanted to see what others opinion of it was.  I have noticed a large increase in pilots using completely impossible aircraft manuvers to avoid a six shot.  Now I know that noone wants to be shot down in here, but when pilots are doing manuvers that no sane pilot would ever attempt on a regular basis (even in an Extra 300) there seems to be a problem.  Doing these stick stirring manuvers just shows a lack of, or even an attempt to learn air combat manuvers.  I strongly feel that there should be a way for the combat to be more realistic, in the long run it would mean more fun for all.  <Salute> Aces High nation, and thanks.

In reality there are a lot of things I would not do in the extra that I would in a real dogfight (not training). No one wants to be shot down.

What do you mean by "impossible aircraft maneuvers"?
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: lulu on January 29, 2011, 03:18:38 PM
When you move too fast, then controls stop working. Right?  -- You must to shake your joystick as crazy man !

So i think that higheye is speaking about something else.

 :salute
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: Mar on January 29, 2011, 03:25:11 PM
When you move too fast, then controls stop working. Right?  -- You must to shake your joystick as crazy man !

So i think that higheye is speaking about something else.

 :salute

It's still possible to make those maneuvers, just not so many at once.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: MachFly on January 29, 2011, 03:28:37 PM
It's still possible to make those maneuvers, just not so many at once.

What maneuvers? Please explain.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: bj229r on January 29, 2011, 03:38:33 PM
What I witness among DA Lake graduates is 'the windmill' (They are twirling their stick in a fast windmill pattern, forcing micro-warps ) A real plane could never duplicate what the cartoon plane does in this scenario, and it often forces an overshoot...most annoying
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: oTRALFZo on January 29, 2011, 03:42:18 PM
What I witness among DA Lake graduates is 'the windmill' (They are twirling their stick in a fast windmill pattern, forcing micro-warps ) A real plane could never duplicate what the cartoon plane does in this scenario, and it often forces an overshoot...most annoying
Ive seen that. Its common in comming across a 1A or Chog and definatly brings the game to a new form of gamey
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: Mar on January 29, 2011, 03:43:38 PM
What maneuvers? Please explain.

Constantly and rapidly changing direction.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: Zoney on January 29, 2011, 03:55:48 PM
Since in real life,if you did not blackout from these manuvers you would surely be quite sick to your stomach and probably hurl.  IRL I believe these "manuvers" would be debilating.  I know that would be difficult to code but maybe, just a suggestion here, it could be treated as a pilot wound currently is.  Vomit covering the canopy screen and since this would weaken you they could code that as only haveing half of the force on the controls.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: MachFly on January 29, 2011, 03:55:55 PM
When do you that controls get locked, so how can you do that?
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: MachFly on January 29, 2011, 03:56:57 PM
Since in real life,if you did not blackout from these manuvers you would surely be quite sick to your stomach and probably hurl.  IRL I believe these "manuvers" would be debilating.  I know that would be difficult to code but maybe, just a suggestion here, it could be treated as a pilot wound currently is.  Vomit covering the canopy screen and since this would weaken you they could code that as only haveing half of the force on the controls.

That's only if the pilot is untrained.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: lulu on January 29, 2011, 04:09:48 PM
Perhaps these can be real. So no vomit !?

They seems to act like in AH.

 :salute
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: lulu on January 29, 2011, 04:17:44 PM
Would be interesting if one of these pilots (has <--- mistakes i know!) flies in AH and tell his impressions.

 :salute
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: lulu on January 29, 2011, 04:20:42 PM
This is better - less acceleration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46wfa4g-Urg&feature=channel
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: oakranger on January 29, 2011, 04:24:18 PM
What I witness among DA Lake graduates is 'the windmill' (They are twirling their stick in a fast windmill pattern, forcing micro-warps ) A real plane could never duplicate what the cartoon plane does in this scenario, and it often forces an overshoot...most annoying

Is this something new of not being killed?
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: MachFly on January 29, 2011, 04:47:19 PM
This is better - less acceleration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46wfa4g-Urg&feature=channel

better than what?
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: MachFly on January 29, 2011, 04:49:18 PM
Would be interesting if one of these pilots (has <--- mistakes i know!) flies in AH and tell his impressions.

 :salute


I fly.

I'm still having though time understand which maneuvers your talking about (controls get locked when you move them fast), can someone post a recording?
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: bj229r on January 29, 2011, 06:45:34 PM
Is this something new of not being killed?
I might actually get to fly tonight, will film it if I see it
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: TinmanX on January 29, 2011, 06:57:12 PM
Throttle back a touch and watch the show. It's quite amusing.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: TUK on January 29, 2011, 07:06:08 PM
I put a defensive  move on 4 bad guys on the deck last night, that made me! throw-up after the move. (Brewster).. :neener:
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: oakranger on January 29, 2011, 07:36:23 PM
I might actually get to fly tonight, will film it if I see it

I would life to see this.  I never encounter this but have seen interesting activity that i can not figure out.  The biggest B.S. i came across was a 262 that i chased down.  going +400 mph, that 262 was all over the place with rapid movement (it was not warping) with out ripping it wings off. 
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: kvuo75 on January 29, 2011, 08:28:34 PM
Throttle back a touch and watch the show. It's quite amusing.


 :aok


wait till they flop themselves out of airspeed and cant flop anymore!
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: SQUAT! on January 29, 2011, 08:46:30 PM
The stick stir is like hoing and ganging. Only those without any skill or acm knowledge at all do it.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: oakranger on January 29, 2011, 11:42:14 PM
The stick stir is like hoing and ganging. Only those without any skill or acm knowledge at all do it.

i would say more like ack hugging.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: zack1234 on January 30, 2011, 03:28:01 AM
 German planes are best for stick stir, and flying at 25k waiting for the vultch :joystick:
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: wil3ur on January 30, 2011, 12:19:21 PM


Since in real life,if you did not blackout from these manuvers you would surely be quite sick to your stomach and probably hurl.  IRL I believe these "manuvers" would be debilating.  I know that would be difficult to code but maybe, just a suggestion here, it could be treated as a pilot wound currently is.  Vomit covering the canopy screen and since this would weaken you they could code that as only haveing half of the force on the controls.


 :rofl
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: SectorNine50 on January 30, 2011, 12:41:20 PM
I think what we're seeing is the attitude prediction system having a fit when people change their vectors too much.  Perhaps if the game updated positions more often it would help (but would also require more bandwidth).
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: caldera on January 30, 2011, 06:05:17 PM
Spit VIII vs F4F-4:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?1q7smu0tmuhh4z7

(1:11)   I would call this stick stirring or maybe just flopping.  :lol
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: MachFly on January 30, 2011, 07:12:18 PM
Spit VIII vs F4F-4:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?1q7smu0tmuhh4z7

(1:11)   I would call this stick stirring or maybe just flopping.  :lol

What he did is called a torque roll, he stalled his wings and used full engine power to rotate the aircraft. The problem was he did not do the complete maneuver and his stall limiter was on, therefore he got shot down.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: Dichotomy on January 30, 2011, 07:14:21 PM
'tall limiter'?  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: MachFly on January 30, 2011, 07:16:33 PM
'tall limiter'?  :headscratch:

fixed, it was supposed to be stall limiter.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: The Jekyll on January 31, 2011, 09:32:44 AM
Unrealistic moves, lets see. Unlimited high-G maneuvers with no effects on your body, red-out to black-out with no ill effects on mental thought, ability to pull the stick through full limits with 0 effort or tiring of muscles; thus no muscle strain or fatigue, ability to fly hours through multiple engagements without burning a calorie or feeling spent when the new nme shows up who is not tired or drained. Ability to get out of the chair and scretch, lack of collar burn from scanning the skies for hours, flying with vertigo from ear infections and the pain of bladder infections from lack of facilities in flight. Mental fatigue from seeing buddy after buddy die a fiery death and the emotions that fill your mind every flight thereafter.
  Yep, this game is strife with unrealistic maneuvers but it is in the end.....a game and therefore by definition.....unrealistic.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: SectorNine50 on January 31, 2011, 10:39:33 AM
Unrealistic moves, lets see. Unlimited high-G maneuvers with no effects on your body, red-out to black-out with no ill effects on mental thought, ability to pull the stick through full limits with 0 effort or tiring of muscles; thus no muscle strain or fatigue, ability to fly hours through multiple engagements without burning a calorie or feeling spent when the new nme shows up who is not tired or drained. Ability to get out of the chair and scretch, lack of collar burn from scanning the skies for hours, flying with vertigo from ear infections and the pain of bladder infections from lack of facilities in flight. Mental fatigue from seeing buddy after buddy die a fiery death and the emotions that fill your mind every flight thereafter.
  Yep, this game is strife with unrealistic maneuvers but it is in the end.....a game and therefore by definition.....unrealistic.

Everything you listed may be realistic, but impossible to simulate.

What is being requested could potentially be simulated and fixed to make it more realistic.  I see no reason that it shouldn't be pursued.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: MachFly on January 31, 2011, 10:43:47 AM
Unrealistic moves, lets see. Unlimited high-G maneuvers with no effects on your body, red-out to black-out with no ill effects on mental thought, ability to pull the stick through full limits with 0 effort or tiring of muscles; thus no muscle strain or fatigue, ability to fly hours through multiple engagements without burning a calorie or feeling spent when the new nme shows up who is not tired or drained. Ability to get out of the chair and scretch, lack of collar burn from scanning the skies for hours, flying with vertigo from ear infections and the pain of bladder infections from lack of facilities in flight. Mental fatigue from seeing buddy after buddy die a fiery death and the emotions that fill your mind every flight thereafter.
  Yep, this game is strife with unrealistic maneuvers but it is in the end.....a game and therefore by definition.....unrealistic.

WHAT?  :confused:
Ok lets brake this down:

Quote
Unlimited high-G maneuvers

They seem limited to me. I know the video does not show any instruments but the max I'd say he pulled is 3Gs, maybe 4, that is not a problem for a trained pilot.

Quote
high-G maneuvers with no effects on your body, red-out to black-out

There are not shown in the recording.

Quote
no ill effects on mental thought

Why should Gs effect mental though? As long as your not blacking out completely you'll be fine. (I don't know this for 100% because I'm not a doctor and when your pulling Gs you don't really know how well your thinking)

Quote
ability to pull the stick through full limits with 0 effort or tiring of muscles;

What makes you think he is using the full motion of the controls?

Quote
no muscle strain or fatigue, ability to fly hours through multiple engagements without burning a calorie or feeling spent when the new nme shows up who is not tired or drained. Ability to get out of the chair and scretch, lack of collar burn from scanning the skies for hours, flying with vertigo from ear infections and the pain of bladder infections from lack of facilities in flight.
An average flight in AH is about 40min, most of which is cruising. 40min really does not seem like a problem.

Quote
Mental fatigue from seeing buddy after buddy die a fiery death and the emotions that fill your mind every flight thereafter.

Well I never seen anyone go down in flight so I can not answer answer this based on experience, and emotions are generally different for all people. My general rule is if you bring your emotions into the cockpit there is a high chance you will not survive. Ofcource were all human and we can't just act like a machine, but you can't be siting in that cockpit concentrated on what just happens.





Also don't forget that it's a simulator, you can't model everything. Well you can (everything but Gs), but it would be really expensive and I'm sure most of the people here do not want to pay millions of dollars for a level D simulator.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: The Jekyll on January 31, 2011, 10:54:55 AM
What? :headscratch:
The game,,,the game..think bigger,,,the game.

Unlimited High=G,,,in the "game" a "gamer" can pull unlimited G's, ie. over and over, and over, with no ill effects on the body. Try that in real life, in WWII, and see if you still sit in your chair without any redution in physical ability.

Try red-out to blackout in real life, over and over, and see if your brain still functions normally during the fight.

Pull stick through full limits. Read Gallands book, he describes in a section the agonizing effects on the muscles after a mere 2-3 minutes of trying to pull the stick against the forces and the mere fact that the more fit person has a better chance of survival. In game, 20-30 minutes of pulling our "joystick" has zero effects on our muscles except maybe a minor cramp. Maybe for you 40 minutes is really no problem but historically the pilots who describe the actual effects tell a much different stor

You can't continue the fight without reflection of the past. After 3 1/2 years of combat I can attest to that. I can only imagine what pilots of those days went through emotionally. If you have the ability to completely void yourself of the realities of combat while in the cockpit more power to you. But I digress to the written words of the greats like Galland, Johnson, Boyd, etc. They, as great as they were, often could not.

Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: MachFly on January 31, 2011, 11:04:14 AM
What? :headscratch:
The game,,,the game..think bigger,,,the game.

Unlimited High=G,,,in the "game" a "gamer" can pull unlimited G's, ie. over and over, and over, with no ill effects on the body. Try that in real life, in WWII, and see if you still sit in your chair without any redution in physical ability.

Try red-out to blackout in real life, over and over, and see if your brain still functions normally during the fight.

Pull stick through full limits. Read Gallands book, he describes in a section the agonizing effects on the muscles after a mere 2-3 minutes of trying to pull the stick against the forces and the mere fact that the more fit person has a better chance of survival. In game, 20-30 minutes of pulling our "joystick" has zero effects on our muscles except maybe a minor cramp. Maybe for you 40 minutes is really no problem but historically the pilots who describe the actual effects tell a much different stor

You can't continue the fight without reflection of the past. After 3 1/2 years of combat I can attest to that. I can only imagine what pilots of those days went through emotionally. If you have the ability to completely void yourself of the realities of combat while in the cockpit more power to you. But I digress to the written words of the greats like Galland, Johnson, Boyd, etc. They, as great as they were, often could not.



No you can not pull unlimited Gs, the AH will not allow you. You will either backout, lose your wings, or the airplane will just be in a continues turn.
Why would you be pulling negative Gs all the time? Thous hurt. The proper procedure it to turn inverted and pull.
Dogfights rarely last 2-3 minutes (as you said), usually it's a lot less.

You said in the game you pull your still for 20-30min? You must really be doing a lot of circling. Why?

As I said I can only speak about emotions based on my experience, and I do not have combat experience. However I never heard thous aces that you mention speak of emotional problems.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: Dichotomy on January 31, 2011, 11:09:01 AM
fixed, it was supposed to be stall limiter.

joking Mach :D
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: MachFly on January 31, 2011, 11:09:57 AM
joking Mach :D

cc lol
 :)
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: RTHolmes on January 31, 2011, 11:16:20 AM
Spit VIII vs F4F-4:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?1q7smu0tmuhh4z7

(1:11)   I would call this stick stirring or maybe just flopping.  :lol

nothing wrong there at all.

next ...
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: FLS on January 31, 2011, 12:18:31 PM
Some things are unrealistic because there was no issue with net lag in WW2 air combat.
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: Changeup on January 31, 2011, 07:41:20 PM
Higheye...what's up my friend? 

I know of what you speak...here's the fix...

Chop throttle and aim and the center of the twirling mass of skilllessness.  Usually, one of their wings or tail or wing root passes through your cannon or 50's stream and its done...just don't run into what's left of their plane.

Changeup
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: Coronado on February 01, 2011, 03:34:45 PM
Since in real life,if you did not blackout from these manuvers you would surely be quite sick to your stomach and probably hurl.  IRL I believe these "manuvers" would be debilating.  I know that would be difficult to code but maybe, just a suggestion here, it could be treated as a pilot wound currently is.  Vomit covering the canopy screen and since this would weaken you they could code that as only haveing half of the force on the controls.
Bacon and eggs on the windscreen with a little coffee for a propellant,,,i like it!!
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: Dadsguns on February 01, 2011, 03:43:52 PM
Best thing to do, saddle em up on their six, dont fire a shot and enjoy the dancing show    :devil
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: Changeup on February 01, 2011, 03:50:17 PM
Best thing to do, saddle em up on their six, dont fire a shot and enjoy the dancing show    :devil

Saddling up without pullin your pistols is like buying condoms to shape your wallet.  It aint right...

Changeup
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: Messiah on February 01, 2011, 05:52:49 PM
ManeTMP was the master of stick stirring
Title: Re: Stick Stir
Post by: bj229r on February 01, 2011, 09:18:54 PM
ManeTMP was the master of stick stirring
Most thoroughly unhappy human being I've ever come across online