Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Imowface on March 15, 2011, 04:39:56 PM
-
I know there was a thread for the worst A/C of all time, but I am currious as to what everyone thinks the worst bird of WW2 is, my Vote goes to the Breda Ba.88, This planes performance was so poor, that in one case, out of three aircraft on a mission, 1 could not even get off the ground, and another, oncwe airbourn, was not able to make a turn, and was forced to fly streight from the mediterainian all the way to an italian airfield in north africa, it performed so bad that later in the war they removed all usefull equipment and it was used as decoys so that enemy planes would not shoot up the good a/c during raids on fields.
lets hear your oppinons guys?
-
Me 323
He177/277
-
Breda Ba.88
Blackburn Roc
Bachem Ba 349
Boulton Paul Defiant
Caudron C.714
ack-ack
-
Breda Ba.88
Boulton Paul Defiant
TBD Devastator
I'm sure more will come to mind
-
Sorry, Internet hiccup.
-
He177
:O
:cry
-
Can't have a list of the worst without including the Fairey Battle....
-
Me-210
-
Can't have a list of the worst without including the Fairey Battle....
I think that one might be the tops. To send those guys into combat in that thing was criminal.
-
IMO the guys who said the German planes above were not actually bad, worst fighter IMO was p-400 (no I did not mean p40)
-
The P-39/P-400 certainly wasn't a world class performer by the start of the war but I don't think it can lay claim to worst of the worst.
Fairy Battle may be in the running though. :)
-
Fairey Battle was merely obsolete. Boulton Paul Defiant was a bad idea.
-
IMO the guys who said the German planes above were not actually bad, worst fighter IMO was p-400 (no I did not mean p40)
the p39 is no wheres near close to being the worst plane of ww2. some pilots really liked it. and it got some respectable aces. plus the russians really liked it.
-
Bolton Paul Defiant-Hurricane with a turret? :headscratch:
Fairey Battle-no. just no.
YB-40-like sending a Sherman to protect a Ferrari
-
Boulton-Paul Defiant may have been one of the worst ideas ever.
-
IMO the guys who said the German planes above were not actually bad, worst fighter IMO was p-400 (no I did not mean p40)
You really want to tell me that this wasn't "actually bad"?
Bachem Ba 349
ack-ack
-
Boulton-Paul Defiant may have been one of the worst ideas ever.
+1
P39 was loved by the Russians even when they had upgraded their own airforce equipment. Its relative P400 was far from the worst also
-
I vote Defiant for the worst idea, but I'm afraid Ba.88 takes the first place for worst realization of a classic and proved design (in other words.... worst aircraft of WWII!)
-
Agreed, the funny thing is though, that before it was militarized, it was a great plane, but as soon as they put on extra weight it was catastrophic
-
Yep, I'm sure that with a different construction methodology and power plant, it could have been a fair military aircraft.
-
well, the defiant wasent really a BAD idea....its just that it was too easy to catch on to.
if you think about it, most fighters had there guns pointing towards the FRONT. and when your trying to dogfight your trying to get on your enemies SIX.
The defiant basically created with a "haha fooled ya!" idea in mind.which at first it gave a nasty surprise to those used to fighters shooting from the front and not from the back.
but, it became easy to catch on to. and thats why i think the defiant failed.
i DO think the defiant would of been good as a bomber attacking.
just replace those 4 .303s with say, 2 .50cals or maybe even a 20mm, then fly under a bombers wing and just shoot its wings off from underneath, safely out of reach of the bombers defensive guns.
-
To be honest, if they added forward firing guns to it, it may not have been that bad
-
It was used to some extent as a night interceptor, - the whole idea being shooting from below.
The Germans later used the same idea with the Scrage Muzik.
The Defiant just lacked the power for the draggy turret. Picture a Beaufighter with a turret like that, as well as nose guns, and you have a completely good idea :D
Anyway, - the Breda. Yeachhh!
-
me 163 anyone? excellent performance, but was completely useless in service. Maybe not the absolute worst, but a fail.
-
It was used to some extent as a night interceptor, - the whole idea being shooting from below.
The Germans later used the same idea with the Scrage Muzik.
The Defiant just lacked the power for the draggy turret. Picture a Beaufighter with a turret like that, as well as nose guns, and you have a completely good idea :D
Anyway, - the Breda. Yeachhh!
The japanese also had a semi close idea too with the C6N1-S Saiun.
had a 30mm cannon protruding out the top of the canopy intended to fly under early war b24s and b25s that didnt have any protection under there bellies.
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/xxREXxx_01/c6n1-s_731.jpg)
-
A lot of this is just us using the benefit of hindsight.
The Battle for instance was considered a modern aircraft when it was introduced in the mid 30s, capable of carrying twice the bombload at much higher speeds and greater range than the biplanes it replaced. By 1940 it was obsolete, partly due to Fairey's attempts to give it more power being prevented by the ministry of production. However its decimation in May 1940 was as much to do with stupid RAF tactics as the aircraft itself. The Battles were sent out in small groups at low level and usually unescorted to attack bridges and armoured columns protected by masses of AA and fighters. Any similar plane of the time (Kate, Stuka, Devastator etc.) would have suffered the same fate in the same circumstances. In fact later in the war these planes did suffer exactly the same fate.
The idea of the Defiant was to formate with enemy bombers and use the turret to blast away at them from outside their guns defensive arcs. This wasn't a totally stupid idea when looked at from a pre-war perspective. Enemy bombers coming from Germany would be outside of the range of escorting fighters so Defiants might have done OK. However the Defiant was still a bad idea in so much as a Hurricane could still have done its job better at less cost. The Defiant's mauling in 1940 was as a result of the RAF commiting them to engagements in range of enemy fighters. They should have been kept up in the north of England freeing up Spitfires and Hurricanes for the south. Of course this is me using the benefit of hindsight.
-
You really want to tell me that this wasn't "actually bad"?
Bachem Ba 349
ack-ack
it's just my opinion, doesn't really mean much at all.
-
General Motors P-75 Eagle. GM bought their way out of the B-29 development support group by claiming they had to devote their resources to this monstrosity. Pure fail.
-
General Motors P-75 Eagle. GM bought their way out of the B-29 development support group by claiming they had to devote their resources to this monstrosity. Pure fail.
lets try to keep it to A/C that were actually used chalenge, because there are Far too many failed experiments to compair with the truly bad planes that fought
-
Sorry... didnt read that in your OP. It meats all the criteria originally stated. WWII :D and it sucks... badly!
-
A lot of this is just us using the benefit of hindsight.
The Battle for instance was considered a modern aircraft when it was introduced in the mid 30s, capable of carrying twice the bombload at much higher speeds and greater range than the biplanes it replaced. By 1940 it was obsolete, partly due to Fairey's attempts to give it more power being prevented by the ministry of production. However its decimation in May 1940 was as much to do with stupid RAF tactics as the aircraft itself. The Battles were sent out in small groups at low level and usually unescorted to attack bridges and armoured columns protected by masses of AA and fighters. Any similar plane of the time (Kate, Stuka, Devastator etc.) would have suffered the same fate in the same circumstances. In fact later in the war these planes did suffer exactly the same fate.
The idea of the Defiant was to formate with enemy bombers and use the turret to blast away at them from outside their guns defensive arcs. This wasn't a totally stupid idea when looked at from a pre-war perspective. Enemy bombers coming from Germany would be outside of the range of escorting fighters so Defiants might have done OK. However the Defiant was still a bad idea in so much as a Hurricane could still have done its job better at less cost. The Defiant's mauling in 1940 was as a result of the RAF commiting them to engagements in range of enemy fighters. They should have been kept up in the north of England freeing up Spitfires and Hurricanes for the south. Of course this is me using the benefit of hindsight.
There is much wisdom in this.
I'd go with the He-162. It was a bad idea at the time as well as in practice.
- oldman
-
I was going to say the Boeing P-26 simply because it was so desperately obsolete. But then I read:
Captain Jesus A. Villamor led the P-26As of the 6th Pursuit Squadron, the only ones of their type to see action in World War II, and they were flown with great courage by their Filipino pilots. On December 12, 1941, Villamor brought down a Mitsubishi G3M2 of the 1st Kokutai over Batangas. Lieutenant Jose Kare even managed to shoot down a Mitsubishi A6M2 Zero with his obsolete Boeing on December 23. Generally, however, pitted against overwhelming numbers of superior enemy aircraft, the Peashooters proved as ineffectual as their name implied. The last surviving Filipino P-26s were burned on Christmas Eve to prevent their falling into enemy hands.
Best.
-
Me 321
Me 323
-
A lot of this is just us using the benefit of hindsight.
Well, considering the topic, I'd say that it implies hindsight, don't you think? ;)
On the other hand, just saying "worst A/C" is maybe too generic, we could define better what we mean when we say "worst".
-
I'd go with the He-162. It was a bad idea at the time as well as in practice.
?? :headscratch:
What's so bad about the concept of a lighter, cheaper, more maneuverable jet fighter that can be built and put into service much more quickly than its counterparts?
If you're referring to the concept of it being "so easy to fly" that 'Hitler Youth' would be sent up in them with little training, that was fantasy and never was even close to being realized. The Luft squadrons that eventually got the He-162 were all very veteran units, as it was considered to be a plane that required a very expert pilot due to its very light controls. But it had huge potential and ability, and in its limited use was somewhat successful.
Arguably it did have some teething problems due to being rushed into service, namely faulty adhesive causing delamination in the wings at speed, but that was corrected, and was a production problem, not a design flaw....
At least a couple of RAF Tempests and one Spitfire are known to have been downed in air-air by He-162s during the "Salamander's" very limited combat exposure.... the vast majority of He-162s destroyed were strafed on the ground or crashed during emergency landing attempts, due mainly to very limited fuel capacity causing pilots to run out of fuel before making it safely back to base.
-
MiG-1
-
well, the defiant wasent really a BAD idea....its just that it was too easy to catch on to.
if you think about it, most fighters had there guns pointing towards the FRONT. and when your trying to dogfight your trying to get on your enemies SIX.
The defiant basically created with a "haha fooled ya!" idea in mind.which at first it gave a nasty surprise to those used to fighters shooting from the front and not from the back.
but, it became easy to catch on to. and thats why i think the defiant failed.
i DO think the defiant would of been good as a bomber attacking.
just replace those 4 .303s with say, 2 .50cals or maybe even a 20mm, then fly under a bombers wing and just shoot its wings off from underneath, safely out of reach of the bombers defensive guns.
By 1942, German bombers were faster than the Defiant, and yes, it was a very bad idea for a combat plane design that was supposed to be a fighter. What genius thinks that it's a great design idea to not have forward firing guns on a fighter?
ack-ack
-
I was going to say the Boeing P-26 simply because it was so desperately obsolete. But then I read:
Best.
There is no official record of Villamor's kills in the P-26 and is largely considered to be false since there is nothing to verify the kills. The only official kill credited to the PAF while flying the P-26 was Kare's kill against a Zeke and that kill was verified by coast watchers that witnessed the fight and the Zeke crashing into the ground.
ack-ack
-
What genius thinks that it's a great design idea to not have forward firing guns on a fighter?
Well I guess not everyone learned this lesson, the F-4 didn't have a forward firing gun when the USN and USAF accepted it either.
-
maybe not, but it had other, possibly more dangerous things pointing forwards. :D
-
What's so bad about the concept of a lighter, cheaper, more maneuverable jet fighter that can be built and put into service much more quickly than its counterparts?
If you're referring to the concept of it being "so easy to fly" that 'Hitler Youth' would be sent up in them with little training, that was fantasy and never was even close to being realized. The Luft squadrons that eventually got the He-162 were all very veteran units, as it was considered to be a plane that required a very expert pilot due to its very light controls. But it had huge potential and ability, and in its limited use was somewhat successful.
Arguably it did have some teething problems due to being rushed into service, namely faulty adhesive causing delamination in the wings at speed, but that was corrected, and was a production problem, not a design flaw....
At least a couple of RAF Tempests and one Spitfire are known to have been downed in air-air by He-162s during the "Salamander's" very limited combat exposure.... the vast majority of He-162s destroyed were strafed on the ground or crashed during emergency landing attempts, due mainly to very limited fuel capacity causing pilots to run out of fuel before making it safely back to base.
You've identified some of the reasons that made it a bad idea at the time. In a broader sense it was yet one more example of the Nazis dispersing their available resources on too many projects, rather than focusing on a proven few. This was especially unwise with a project that was so leading-edge at the time - those are the ones you rush at your greatest peril, as your faulty construction examples illustrate. The notion that it would be flown by Hitler Youth (or at least by large numbers of pilots with minimal training) was central to the concept. Otherwise there was already a well-tested jet that the veterans were flying.
- oldman
-
Well I guess not everyone learned this lesson, the F-4 didn't have a forward firing gun when the USN and USAF accepted it either.
TBH didnt the F-4 do very bad against MiG's compaired to the norm for the US against Korea
-
In a broader sense it was yet one more example of the Nazis dispersing their available resources on too many projects, rather than focusing on a proven few.
I think the point that won over the German brass on the He 162 was the fact that the "proven few" planes weren't getting the job done. The prop fighters they had were suffering under the brute force of the allies numerical superiority, and they needed to untilize their technological superiority in order to regain the upper hand. The Me 262 was complex, took a long time to build, depended heavily on materials that were in very very short supply, and was unreliable.. all things that, coupled with it not being fully employed as a fighter until it was too late, meant it never had the chance to have a great impact.
The He 162 could be built much more quickly, used much more easily accessible materials, was cheaper, and was by all accounts a dream to fly.
This was especially unwise with a project that was so leading-edge at the time - those are the ones you rush at your greatest peril, as your faulty construction examples illustrate.
From my understanding that issue arose with only one prototype aircraft, and led to a fatal crash. It was corrected, and was no longer an issue.
The notion that it would be flown by Hitler Youth (or at least by large numbers of pilots with minimal training) was central to the concept.
I think that notion is highly debateable. It may have been lobbied for with that plan in mind, but that notion was abandoned before the He 162 ever got close to production. The core argument FOR the He 162 was ALWAYS that it was cheap, easy and quick to produce, thus they could put several into service for every one 262 that went to a squadron. The notion of kids flying it was merely window dressing for the concept in order to sell it to a desperate regime.
Otherwise there was already a well-tested jet that the veterans were flying.
If anything they should have abandoned the Me 262 and focused solely on the He 162 and other aircraft of its type.... given the relative capabilities of the two, and the numerical disadvantage they faced versus the allies, I would put my money on them being better off with the H2 162 given they could produce 2-3 of the Heinkel for every one of the 262 they could build.
-
The Spruce Goose
(http://www.theaviationzone.com/images/vintage/hk1/bin/hk1_10.jpg)
It was started in 1942, finished in 1947. It barely took off, 30 feet of so off the water, and it never flew again. Even the Ba88 did better than this thing did and for less money.
Final cost? A paltry $38 million...
-
Dang, I couldn't win not even this time! :furious
-
General Motors P-75 Eagle. GM bought their way out of the B-29 development support group by claiming they had to devote their resources to this monstrosity. Pure fail.
Yeah, the P-75 would make my list as well. Just think what could have built with those resources wasted on that junker....
-
TBH didnt the F-4 do very bad against MiG's compaired to the norm for the US against Korea
Rules of Engagement...what happens when the White House tries to micromanage the war.
-
The Spruce Goose
(http://www.theaviationzone.com/images/vintage/hk1/bin/hk1_10.jpg)
It was started in 1942, finished in 1947. It barely took off, 30 feet of so off the water, and it never flew again. Even the Ba88 did better than this thing did and for less money.
Final cost? A paltry $38 million...
it was a cool idea though. the crazy thing is, it was made almost entirely of wood. 24,000hp from 8x3000hp Pratt & Whitney Wasp Majors lifted 400,000 lbs a total of... 70 ft. :o and i heard it was 25m-->7m from Hughes, and the other 18m from the US governement, even though they backed out?
-
The Spruce Goose
(http://www.theaviationzone.com/images/vintage/hk1/bin/hk1_10.jpg)
It was started in 1942, finished in 1947. It barely took off, 30 feet of so off the water, and it never flew again. Even the Ba88 did better than this thing did and for less money.
Final cost? A paltry $38 million...
The only reason why he took that flight was to prevent the government from filing charges against him for fraud and misuse of government funds.
ack-ack
-
he threatened to leave the US if he wasnt allowed to fly that thing, did he not? it was really just a matter of honour, i think.
-
it was a cool idea though. the crazy thing is, it was made almost entirely of wood. 24,000hp from 8x3000hp Pratt & Whitney Wasp Majors lifted 400,000 lbs a total of... 70 ft. :o and i heard it was 25m-->7m from Hughes, and the other 18m from the US governement, even though they backed out?
The sad reality was Hughes was a genius... and by that time, a madman.
Everything I've ever read indicates it was a high speed taxi test, and there was never the intention at that time to become airbourne.... she lifted off rather unexpectedly, and they put her right back down.
-
he threatened to leave the US if he wasnt allowed to fly that thing, did he not? it was really just a matter of honour, i think.
He was in a middle of a Senate investigation into his use of government funds for the project. Depending on what the Senate hearing committee decided, Hughes could have faced criminal charges for fraud and misuse of government funds if the plane never flew.
ack-ack
-
Dang, I couldn't win not even this time! :furious
:devil
-
The sad reality was Hughes was a genius... and by that time, a madman.
Everything I've ever read indicates it was a high speed taxi test, and there was never the intention at that time to become airbourne.... she lifted off rather unexpectedly, and they put her right back down.
read his biography or auto biograpy and I think the reason for the thing flying is because he knew the media had it covered from every angle and he wanted for everyone then and 100 years from now to know it really flies.
-
Fairey Battle was merely obsolete. Boulton Paul Defiant was a bad idea.
Looks kinda cool, What was soooo bad?
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedkingdom/aircraft/fighter/boulton-paul-defiant-fighter/boulton-paul-defiant-fighter-02.png)
-
Looks kinda cool, What was soooo bad?
"Coolest" looking coffin two guys could ask for, I guess.
-
Looks kinda cool, What was soooo bad?
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedkingdom/aircraft/fighter/boulton-paul-defiant-fighter/boulton-paul-defiant-fighter-02.png)
see any forward firing guns on that thing? thats why it was so bad.
-
Bad eyes, I saw that Pitot tube & thought it was a cannon barrel.
-
Fairey Battle was merely obsolete. Boulton Paul Defiant was a bad idea.
Good distinction, though I'd say that maybe the idea for the Defiant was obsolete...?
Another candidate: the intended replacement for the very successful B5N "Kate" carrier-based torpedo bomber, the B6N Tenzan/"Jill" ? Thing was in the testing and development phase for a few years, had structural deficiencies (weak tailhook, weak main gear), handled poorly (unstable in yaw), and always was difficult to fly at low speeds (i.e., landing)...
(http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/NavyJB&W2/B6N-28.jpg)
-
Another candidate: the intended replacement for the very successful B5N "Kate" carrier-based torpedo bomber, the B6N Tenzan/"Jill" ?
Now that you mention the Jill...the SB2C Helldiver would be in the running for worst plane of the war, too.
- oldman
-
Looks kinda cool, What was soooo bad?
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedkingdom/aircraft/fighter/boulton-paul-defiant-fighter/boulton-paul-defiant-fighter-02.png)
Actually it could be quite fun to bring Defiant into AH if it is modeled with the possibility of using AI for pilot (which has already been modeled by HT for CT drones)
You see the enemy, you switch on AI and jump into turret . Pilot AI is trying to follow the enemy plane, while you are trying to shoot it with your turret MGs.
Will be kind of fun for some young fellas here :)
-
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/xxREXxx_01/JSJ_PC_Supermarine_Spitfire_4.jpg)
:noid :bolt:
-
Worst aircraft of WW2? Tough call, there were so many... :huh
(http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/77/Me109_G-6_D-FMBB_1.jpg)
-
Spitfire. Any model.
-
see any forward firing guns on that thing? thats why it was so bad.
The Fairey Battle had a single forward firing .303 caliber machine gun.
ack-ack
-
Now that you mention the Jill...the SB2C Helldiver would be in the running for worst plane of the war, too.
- oldman
I'll throw my money on the TBD Devastator armed with the Mark 13 torpedo. Together those two turds were an embarrassment.
-Sik
-
(http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photog/0104/001351.jpg)
-
Actually it could be quite fun to bring Defiant into AH if it is modeled with the possibility of using AI for pilot (which has already been modeled by HT for CT drones)
You see the enemy, you switch on AI and jump into turret . Pilot AI is trying to follow the enemy plane, while you are trying to shoot it with your turret MGs.
Will be kind of fun for some young fellas here :)
no, the pilot AI wouldn't be trying to follow the enemy A/C, he would be trying to get below/ahead of it, no? the Defiant had no forward firing guns, after all.
-
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/xxREXxx_01/JSJ_PC_Supermarine_Spitfire_4.jpg)
:noid :bolt:
I wanna slap youWorst aircraft of WW2? Tough call, there were so many... :huh
(http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/77/Me109_G-6_D-FMBB_1.jpg)
punch you
Both aircraft are one of the best aircraft ever built
-
SirNuke, whats that plane? looks really funny
-
A restored and reengined Caudron C.714
-
Now that you mention the Jill...the SB2C Helldiver would be in the running for worst plane of the war, too.
- oldman
The Helldiver was plagued with problems for sure but most, if not all, were ironed out with the production of the SB2C-3 and later Helldiver varients.
ack-ack
-
(http://bluejacket.com/usn/images/ac/f/f2a-3_brewster_buffalo_8-42.jpg)
The company who built them was very poorly managed (original executives are charged with fraud) and the gov had to step in, the quality/reliability was garbage oh yeah...
and it didn't come with clown shoes and a rainbow paint job, like a cartoon one, it got its rear handed to it by Japanese pilots.
-
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/xxREXxx_01/JSJ_PC_Supermarine_Spitfire_4.jpg)
:noid :bolt:
Worst aircraft of WW2? Tough call, there were so many... :huh
(http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/77/Me109_G-6_D-FMBB_1.jpg)
What???
the spitfire, 109 & p51 are arguably some of the best fighters of WW2.
-
What???
the spitfire, 109 & p51 are arguably some of the best fighters of WW2.
I said the same thing :bolt:
-
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/xxREXxx_01/fw190.jpg)
:noid :bolt:
-
Kurt Tank ruled the world. fail
-
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/xxREXxx_01/fw190.jpg)
:noid :bolt:
:furious
-
I said the same thing :bolt:
Pathetic troll by by a pathetic squeaker noob, what else can we expect of Tyrannis?
ack-ack
-
Pathetic troll by by a pathetic squeaker noob, what else can we expect of Tyrannis?
ack-ack
i guess ackack cant take a joke. old men get cranky too easily.
-
The Helldiver was plagued with problems for sure but most, if not all, were ironed out with the production of the SB2C-3 and later Helldiver varients.
Sure. But it was a useless plane when put into service. By then the Navy fighters and/or the TBF could carry the same loads (or better) for the same distance and deliver with the same accuracy.
- oldman
-
Pathetic troll by by a pathetic squeaker noob, what else can we expect of Tyrannis?
ack-ack
:lol
Yes it was pathetic, but I responded lol
-
(http://bluejacket.com/usn/images/ac/f/f2a-3_brewster_buffalo_8-42.jpg)
The company who built them was very poorly managed (original executives are charged with fraud) and the gov had to step in, the quality/reliability was garbage oh yeah...
and it didn't come with clown shoes and a rainbow paint job, like a cartoon one, it got its rear handed to it by Japanese pilots.
Yet Finnish pilots kicked Soviet butt, having the best victory ratio of any WW2 a/c. Just maybe the pilots made the difference. :devil
-
Yet Finnish pilots kicked Soviet butt, having the best victory ratio of any WW2 a/c. Just maybe the pilots made the difference. :devil
It wasn't so much the Finnish as it was the Russians. Stalin killed off anyone with any skills, and then threw the masses of noobs in 1920's era planes at the fins. I remember reading German pilots during the initial invasion of Russia, being amazed at the fact that the many of the Russian planes were missing sites and the pilots had drew them on the windscreen.
-
me 262, ground attack version. pretty much was like neuturing a bull.
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/xxREXxx_01/me262au401.jpg)
-
Surely that's an experimental fit, meant to target bombers, not used operationally?
-
Surely that's an experimental fit, meant to target bombers, not used operationally?
not sure, its just a quick pic i grabbed off yahoo images after i typed in "me262 ground attack version.
edit: your right, it was an experiment. 50mm cannon attached to the nose to shoot bombers, but it jammed too easy to be effective so they abandoned it.
website:"One Schwalbe was fitted with a Rheinmetall 50 millimeter cannon to shoot down Allied bombers. The big gun tended to jam badly, and it also seems that it blinded the pilot with its bright muzzle flash. This experiment was abandoned."
http://www.vectorsite.net/avme262.html
-
me 262, ground attack version. pretty much was like neuturing a bull.
No, that was not the ground attack version of the Me 262. The picture is of a prototype Me 262 A-1a/U4 with the Bk5 50mm cannon and was intended to be used as a bomber destroyer and not ground attack. The ground attack version of the Me 262 was the Me 262 A-2a "Sturmvogel" that had provisions for bombs and retained only 2 of the 30mm cannons.
ack-ack
-
It wasn't so much the Finnish as it was the Russians. Stalin killed off anyone with any skills, and then threw the masses of noobs in 1920's era planes at the fins. I remember reading German pilots during the initial invasion of Russia, being amazed at the fact that the many of the Russian planes were missing sites and the pilots had drew them on the windscreen.
You really should find better reference sources, instead of the tabloid types.
-
maybe the finn's were better pilots then us, but probably not, look what happend to them after Yak's and La's started to replace the older types that were getting shot down by brewsters
-
YB-40-like sending a Sherman to protect a Ferrari
The problem with the YB-40 was that, unlike the B-17s that it was escorting, it couldn't drop the weight of the armor over the target, which meant that it couldn't keep up with the bombers on the return flight unless they all throttled back to stay with the YB-40.
Everything I've ever read indicates it was a high speed taxi test, and there was never the intention at that time to become airbourne.... she lifted off rather unexpectedly, and they put her right back down.
More accurately, Hughes claimed after the flight in his own defense that the aircraft lifted off unexpectedly and he couldn't hold it down. How much of that is true is debatable, given the man's desire to see it fly.
-
Haven't seen the name Shiva in a while. Wouldn't be an old Airwarrior guy would ya?
-
maybe the finn's were better pilots then us, but probably not, look what happend to them after Yak's and La's started to replace the older types that were getting shot down by brewsters
What happened then?
To my knowledge, to those Yaks and Las were then being shot down by the Brewsters.
New tactics had of course to be invented and things were harder for the BW-pilots, but the fine planes struggled on until the wars end, in the end flying against the Germans. Not bad for a pre-war design.
-
Whatever the type was that should be considered the worst of WW2 this game would not be complete without it. There are literally hundreds of additions that could be made to this game, and it would make it that much more interesting. In that perspective I don't understand why HTC expanded into WW1. From a marketing standpoint yes, but from a gameplay standpoint, absolutely not.
-
I agree with you vortex if the Ba.88 was in game, i would fly it lol
-
Whatever the type was that should be considered the worst of WW2 this game would not be complete without it. There are literally hundreds of additions that could be made to this game, and it would make it that much more interesting. In that perspective I don't understand why HTC expanded into WW1. From a marketing standpoint yes, but from a gameplay standpoint, absolutely not.
Turner, aren't you supposed to be working on High Blue Pt II?????
!!Back to your movie studio!! :furious :furious
:rofl
-
You really should find better reference sources, instead of the tabloid types.
lol, I assume you must be Finish?
If so, don't let your sense of national pride obstruct the truth, Finish pilots weren't demigods, nor were the American pilots total garbage, nor was the Brewster anything hot...The Germans had huge successes against the Russian air force in the early half of the war for the same reasons.
BTW, by 1943, for the most part the Finns switched to 109g2s, around the same time the Russians started to get their act together.
-
Ardy123,
MiloMorai is not Finnish. He was likely referring to the absurd claim that the Soviets were using 1920s era aircraft against the Finns. You will find, with slight research, that the I-16, I-153 and DB-3 were not remotely 1920s aircraft, let alone the Hurricanes and LaGGs.
-
MiloMorai,
the finnish pilots were very well trained. Tipical quality vs quantity story.
Plus their rides were modern in '40, and they updated them.
-
Ardy123,
MiloMorai is not Finnish. He was likely referring to the absurd claim that the Soviets were using 1920s era aircraft against the Finns. You will find, with slight research, that the I-16, I-153 and DB-3 were not remotely 1920s aircraft, let alone the Hurricanes and LaGGs.
Ok, so the 1920s may have been a slight exaggeration, but at the time of "Operation Barbarossa" (1941), less than 25% of the soviet air-force had 'modern' equipment and aircraft.
I haven't seen anything to imply that they had tons of LaGGs and Hurricans, and I-16 was considered out of date...
"Fewer than a quarter of the WS's fighters were modern MiG-3s and LaGG-3s; more than a quarter of the remainder were biplanes, even more out of date than the ageing I-16s which were the most numerous type of plane in use"
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-1459288/The-Soviet-Air-Force-versus.html (http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-1459288/The-Soviet-Air-Force-versus.html)
Remember the Winter war started in 1939, and the follow-up continuation war started in 1941.
-
I'm sorry but the US/British F2A would have been easily bested by the Finnish B-239. The allies added too much to it in my opinion and turned it into a dog. I also would love to remove the US skins from the 239 in game.
-
Ardy123,
MiloMorai is not Finnish. He was likely referring to the absurd claim that the Soviets were using 1920s era aircraft against the Finns. You will find, with slight research, that the I-16, I-153 and DB-3 were not remotely 1920s aircraft, let alone the Hurricanes and LaGGs.
Thanks you Karnak and Debrody. :cheers:
Nice breakdown of claims by a/c by Finnish aces, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_aces_from_Finland
The Soviets deployed 3,885 a/c against the Finns. http://www.winterwar.com/forces/SAF.htm#sovplanes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aircraft_of_Finland
"The Finns were overjoyed, and they began flying their new fighter. Of the six Buffalo B-239 fighters delivered to Finland before the end of the Winter War of 1939–1940, five of them became combat-ready, but they did not enter combat before this war ended."
So Ardy123, the Finns used their B-239s in the Continuation War against modern Soviet a/c.
-
Ardy was talking about the soviet air force in '41. There were no Laggs, Jaks, Ils, mostly I16s. The most modern fighter was the Mig-3, what was fast at high altitude, but was a brick and had very weak guns. The new generation of soviet fighters arrived at about the siege of Moscow, but still in limited numbers. And the finnish front was only a secondary war to the red army and air force, they had to face and beat Germany first. The old planes were in service in the finnish front when they were retired on the main fronts. True, the finns had some old aircrafts too, but their superior pilot training could balance the soviet policy to send untrained masses to the battlefield.
But i bet, Imow and WMaker knows much more than me.
-
While the P-39 was not the worst plane of WWII, it is perhaps the most wasted potential. A series of brilliant decisions such as removing the supercharger castrated the plane into uselessness. Same as with the P-51 that was a meh plane for low alt work till a Merlin and two stage supercharger later it became one of the top WWII planes - the P-39 could have been a legend as well and be that legend in 1942 already.
There was a website that had a detailed story of how this plane was crippled. Can't seem to find it now.
-
There was a website that had a detailed story of how this plane was crippled. Can't seem to find it now.
It's what happens when domestic industry wage war among eachother for govt contracts. Engineering brilliance routinely gets squandered in fruitless projects that despite their potential are sorted out in favor of a different corporation.
It's just how the industry works and it's the same during peacetime. For a modern day example check up on the Polish Bielik (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmptiW_aoM4) jet trainer. It was a domestic polish project and with modern materials very economically efficient even if you disregard the fact it would be a domestic product thus the money would go into the Polish economy. So what do the Polish govt do? They buy British Hawks, used and bruised since the 70's and 80's and far more expensive to operate.
Another example from Poland would be the PZL-230F Skorpion. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVnGF8XbgcA&feature=related)
That's the power of bribes and the fallacy of corrupt politicians. So I have to ask, exactly how do you think this would be any different in wartime?
-
maybe the finn's were better pilots then us, but probably not, look what happend to them after Yak's and La's started to replace the older types that were getting shot down by brewsters
The newer types still got shot down by Brewsters far more than Brewsters got shot down by them. :) Exchange ratio of 26:1 tells us something considering that the Brewsters were flown operationally throughout the Continuation War and therefore had to face plenty of the newer types of Soviet fighters.
-
BTW, by 1943, for the most part the Finns switched to 109g2s,
Incorrect.
Finland recieved its first G-2s in March 1943. Total of 30 G-2s were recieved in the spring of '43. Majority of the Finnish fighter force still consisted of older types.
-
MiloMorai,
Plus their rides were modern in '40, and they updated them.
True and, as pointed out elsewhere w/r the ingame Brewie is the export version, ie., NOT the USN version.
-
Also, and it may have come up in the intervening 6 pages (I'll wait for the movie to come out), I don't see how we can have this discussion without the Devastator getting a nomination.
-
You've identified some of the reasons that made it a bad idea at the time. In a broader sense it was yet one more example of the Nazis dispersing their available resources on too many projects, rather than focusing on a proven few. This was especially unwise with a project that was so leading-edge at the time - those are the ones you rush at your greatest peril, as your faulty construction examples illustrate. The notion that it would be flown by Hitler Youth (or at least by large numbers of pilots with minimal training) was central to the concept. Otherwise there was already a well-tested jet that the veterans were flying.
- oldman
You've got it all wrong there Oldman. The 162 WAS the improvement on the trusted and tested platform.
Look at the 110s, look at the 410s, the twin engine fighters didn't get as much a boost from that second engine, yet required much more resources, money, and engines to build for the same number of airframes. They all ended up heavier, slower, and less manuverable than the single engine counterparts that were winning the war.
With Germany's resources stretched so thin, producing jet engines with the rare metal in them that can withstand the forces needed was a strain to meet 262 and other jet needs. It was quite logical to take that 262 design, retain the top speed, add manuverability, make it smaller, more nimble, oh, and use only 1/2 the engines (allowing 2x the airframes to fill the sky for the same number of limited engines).
It was the next step forward.
As an aside, there were actually supposedly 2 hitler youth units training and gearing up on the 162, along with the 2 actual Luftwaffe units, but records to verify this are sketchy as records were burned in mass bonfires in the streets as Berlin was being invaded.
-
You've got it all wrong there Oldman. The 162 WAS the improvement on the trusted and tested platform.
Look at the 110s, look at the 410s, the twin engine fighters didn't get as much a boost from that second engine, yet required much more resources, money, and engines to build for the same number of airframes. They all ended up heavier, slower, and less manuverable than the single engine counterparts that were winning the war.
With Germany's resources stretched so thin, producing jet engines with the rare metal in them that can withstand the forces needed was a strain to meet 262 and other jet needs. It was quite logical to take that 262 design, retain the top speed, add manuverability, make it smaller, more nimble, oh, and use only 1/2 the engines (allowing 2x the airframes to fill the sky for the same number of limited engines).
It was the next step forward.
As an aside, there were actually supposedly 2 hitler youth units training and gearing up on the 162, along with the 2 actual Luftwaffe units, but records to verify this are sketchy as records were burned in mass bonfires in the streets as Berlin was being invaded.
While I often get things all wrong, I think not this one. Germany didn't have time for a next step forward, it had to deal with the here and now. The Viper was a big step forward, the 163 may have been a step forward, heck even the Do 335 may have been a step forward, but all of them dispersed Germany's efforts when those efforts should have been focused on immediate production of tested designs. The 163 probably would have required another six months or year of testing before it was reliable, not to mention figuring out how to set up a child-pilot jet training program, and the Germans didn't have that time.
- oldman
-
Incorrect.
Finland recieved its first G-2s in March 1943. Total of 30 G-2s were recieved in the spring of '43. Majority of the Finnish fighter force still consisted of older types.
So tell me, according to a previous post, there was only ever a total of 44 Brewsters in the air force, yet there was 48 109 g2s and 109 g6s... what does it take to qualify for replacing then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aircraft_of_Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aircraft_of_Finland)
-
So tell me, according to a previous post, there was only ever a total of 44 Brewsters in the air force, yet there was 48 109 g2s and 109 g6s... what does it take to qualify for replacing then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aircraft_of_Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aircraft_of_Finland)
G-2's were purchased with an agreement that all losses would be replaced. Those 18 G-2s are replacements that came as the original ones were destroyed for one reason or another. First G-6s came to Finland as late as April '44 and bulk of them were flown to Finland during the summer of '44. Even then, Brewsters weren't replaced as fighters. They still were flown by the Fighter Squadron 26, allthough not in the hotests "hotspots" of Karelian Isthmus, right until the armstice with Soviet Union and after that against the Germans in Lappland.
I suggest you read up on Finnish Air Force history a bit more before making errorous claims.
-
While I often get things all wrong, I think not this one. Germany didn't have time for a next step forward, it had to deal with the here and now. The Viper was a big step forward, the 163 may have been a step forward, heck even the Do 335 may have been a step forward, but all of them dispersed Germany's efforts when those efforts should have been focused on immediate production of tested designs. The 163 probably would have required another six months or year of testing before it was reliable, not to mention figuring out how to set up a child-pilot jet training program, and the Germans didn't have that time.
- oldman
It really didn't disperse much. More than 1500 Me262s were built. Half of them were destroyed parked waiting for shipping. They still got the other half out, flew bomber missions, night fighter missions, daytime interception missions. Not counting the Ar234s and other jets.
Production wasn't the issue. They built more Bf109s in the last months of the war than they did any month leading up to that, if I recall. They had the production distributed out to so many garage industries that no bombing run could shut down a plant. They simply assembled the planes at the factories. It was that initial design phase that cost money and time. It was making the frames and rigs to build the parts (the patterns, or whatever). They got that done on the 162 in record time. By any standard it was fast, and it was good. Can't really blame bad glue for losing a wing here or there. Tragic yes, but hardly unique. Ta154 was grounded because of glue as well and it showed as much promise as the RAF Mosquito.
Their production was so ahead of their actual pilots and bodies to put in the planes that they could and did branch out and build many different things with no detrimental impact. This wasn't the case in 1939/1940, but at the end? They had more than enough "wiggle room."
-
Half of them were destroyed parked waiting for shipping
Some 611 Me162s were damaged or lost completely before delivery. Of these 611, some 114 were repaired, leaving 497 as total loss. Hardly 1/2.
They built more Bf109s in the last months of the war than they did any month leading up to that, if I recall.
These are neubau numbers for the 109:
1944
Jan - 932
Feb - 715
Mar - 804
Apr - 1006
May- 1065
June - 1230
July - 1043
Aug - 1374
Sept - 1718
Oct - 1793
Nov - 1558
Dec - 1147
1945
Jan - 1221
Feb - 876
Mar - 716
-
Spitfire, just think about the number of Germans that hated it. :devil
-
Spitfire, just think about the number of Germans that hated it. :devil
And a certain Hungarian lawyer. :x
-
Production wasn't the issue. They built more Bf109s in the last months of the war than they did any month leading up to that, if I recall.
Paraphrasing what I recall of Speer, yes, I believe it is generally correct that fighter production peaked late. What killed the Luftwaffe was not aircraft production so much as a lack of pilots, fuel, and ultimately, places to build and land them. Thus, I'd be sruprised if the "last month" claim is accurate but production peaked late in the war, certainly.
Also, many of the facilities were hardened and extended. Indeed, F-dubs were being assembled under Templehof right to the end.
<edit> and I see from Milo that, yes, it was a late war peak but not "the last month". Thanks for that, Milo.
-
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=2462&page=3&highlight=neubau+109
See Post #28 for a file showing all neubau.
-
And also I could be thinking of all fighter types, as the Fw190s were produced heavily up til the end, both inline and radial. Other types were also becoming more common (such as 262, such as twin engined night fighters, etc)
-
And a certain Hungarian lawyer. :x
Who are you talking about?
-
Who are you talking about?
What, you have not heard of the infamous Bararossa Isegrim, aka Barbi, aka VO101 Isegrim, aka VO101 Kurfurst, aka Kurfurst from Budapest.
-
German a/c production,
http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/sturmvogel/exhibit.html
-
What, you have not heard of the infamous Bararossa Isegrim, aka Barbi, aka VO101 Isegrim, aka VO101 Kurfurst, aka Kurfurst from Budapest.
Hehe Kurfurst...I bet he cries a bit every day because Germany lost.
ack-ack
-
Hehe Kurfurst...I bet he cries a bit every day because Germany lost.
ack-ack
He runs that Kurfurst website correct? Whats his story?, he was before my time at AH..
-
Never heard about him. I know about that 109 performance site tho.
Hungarians arent crying becouse Germany lost. We lost way more than Germany. I wont break the rule about politics here.
Just google what was the peace threaty of Trianon.
-
Hungarians arent crying becouse Germany lost.
when I mentioned Kurfurst, my reference was to him crying and not Hungarians as a whole. Kurfurst was, to put it mildly a Luftwhiner and a historical revisionist.
ack-ack
-
Also, and it may have come up in the intervening 6 pages (I'll wait for the movie to come out), I don't see how we can have this discussion without the Devastator getting a nomination.
It got it.
Breda Ba.88
Boulton Paul Defiant
TBD Devastator
I'm sure more will come to mind
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=2462&page=3&highlight=neubau+109
See Post #28 for a file showing all neubau.
Milo, could you please post that file in here? One can download it from that forum only if one's logged in.
-
I would if I knew how Gianlupo.
Worth while to register on that site, though.
-
when I mentioned Kurfurst, my reference was to him crying and not Hungarians as a whole. Kurfurst was, to put it mildly a Luftwhiner and a historical revisionist.
And a nasty, mean-spirited SOB, too.
- oldman
-
BF109K4...definately worst plane of WW2
-
BF109K4...definately worst plane of WW2
Worse than Blackburn Roc? Amazing...
-
BF109K4...definately worst plane of WW2
actually there is some truth to this...
A good plane in ww2 would need to be easy to get kills in for low skilled pilots. By this definition, the Spitfire is the first ride that comes to mind. Remember, most WW2 pilots had a lot less 'practice' than we do in our cartoon world. K4s are hard to fly effectively and hard to aim but if flown correctly, they can rack up kills. So the K4 is a very capable aircraft but not a good aircraft for the job, as the amount of stick time needed in it to do well.
-
In Bob Doe's first combat, flying the Spitfire Mk Ia during the Battle of Britain, having only ever fired 30 rounds into the channel and being sure he was the worst pilot in the squadron and going to die, he shot down two Bf110C-4s.
-
Bob Doe was lucky he was up against Bf110s for his first encounter. Others, were not so lucky. Luck has a lot to do with it, like how Hartmann despite his own potentially fatal mistakes in his first combat survived, learned the lesson and went on to become the most successful fighter pilot of all time.
-
Haven't seen the name Shiva in a while. Wouldn't be an old Airwarrior guy would ya?
From back when it was still exclusively on GEnie, yes. I was away for a while after I discovered that I couldn't get XP64 drivers for my rig, but that they would be released 'soon'... and 'soon' never came.
-
Hmmm. Flew with a guy named Shiva but it was in the AOL days
-
Bob Doe was lucky he was up against Bf110s for his first encounter. Others, were not so lucky. Luck has a lot to do with it, like how Hartmann despite his own potentially fatal mistakes in his first combat survived, learned the lesson and went on to become the most successful fighter pilot of all time.
The first Bf110 he got was a confidence builder for Bob Doe as he realized the Spitfire was really very good. The second was pure luck he hadn't died as after being dumbfounded that he'd shot the first down another almost got him. He pulled into a climbing turn just in time, and through sheer luck as he had no idea the Bf110 was there. He said he heard the thud-thud-thud of its 20mm cannons as it passed. He rolled back in and bagged that one too.
After landing he gave a lot of thought to what had happened, why it had happened and what to do to make surviving not be based on luck. He came to the conclusion that the tight formations they were being told to keep, with everybody but the leader, focused on maintaining position were a bad thing and the key to surviving and winning was to keep a constant lookout so as to have as good an idea of what was happening around you as possible.
-
He came to the conclusion that the tight formations they were being told to keep, with everybody but the leader, focused on maintaining position were a bad thing and the key to surviving and winning was to keep a constant lookout so as to have as good an idea of what was happening around you as possible.
That's got to be the old "Vic", soon to be supplanted by the "4 pairs are better than 1" finger four.
-
G.55
-
G.55
Why? I know wasnt the best at low altitudes, but i dont think it was the worst.
-
That's got to be the old "Vic", soon to be supplanted by the "4 pairs are better than 1" finger four.
For sure the vic formation killed a lot of young pilots before the old men got a little wiser. It was a classic case of adopting the tactics of the enemy, for they are proven to be more effective.
-
Hmmm. Flew with a guy named Shiva but it was in the AOL days
I played SVGA Air Warrior when it was on GEnie, then on the Net when they opened it up to telnet connections to the server, then AW4W, then moved through the sims that were developed by the people who weren't satisfied with Kesmai's glacial update speed -- Confirmed Kill, then Warbirds, then AH, following the rest of the Damned.
-
This thread is like the energizer bunny..... Too much for me :bolt: