Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Noah17 on March 18, 2011, 05:50:49 AM
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Can we have a discussion pros/cons of these two?
So, I know the F4U is going to turn better, have a good barrel roll and, should be a little more durable generally speaking. The 190D is faster, climbs better and, rolls better.
The advantage would seem to be w/ the 190 however I don't get killed by them much.....Except yesterday when I had run out of fuel and Pervert got me....He made a good shot, I don't want to take credit away from him. I still don't normally lose to a 190 unless; I never saw him, or I run out of fuel/was already damaged. Normally a 190D attacking me works like this: He started w/ more altitude, makes a pass at high speed I wait for his inevitable spiral climb....I normally say to myself "oh geez can't they do anything else?" I'll avoid the attempt to rope me and I keep going until I reset the fight at a similar level of E. At that time I'm generally able to reverse, lead turn him from head on and, by that point he has to decide to turn fight me....I'll win, go away and come back w/more E to try again or, just go home.
I've been thinking about it since yesterday and can't think of anything; else what am I missing?
:salute
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In any sort of fight the f4u is going to eat a 190 up. The 190s options are to wait for a pick, make a couple bore n zoom passes and run, and burn off all his e trying for a quick kill. If he doesn't get it within the first 15-20 seconds, his choice is to run or die. If its a 190a he won't even be able to run.
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For what it's worth, here's my take on it.
Flying the 190 is all about angles and lead shots, sure the D model turn a whole lot better, is faster and climb better but it always comes down to the pilot and his ability to make use of the advantages as they are presented to him or gained by him. I don't really understand your query, half the fight is before the fight when you position yourself. Situational awareness is a key factor in any fight. Trying to extend or separate from the enemy is not a bad thing when it's the only option you have in order to avoid to get shot down, however some jocks don't have the fine ability to judge when this is indeed necessary and when not.
Situational Awareness -> Positioning & Timing
Tactical Understanding -> Maneuvering & Timing
Gunnery Understanding -> Guns Solution & Kill
Did I forget something? I probably did, but when it comes to air combat and the necessary maneuvering associated with it there's a paradox in that nothing can be specified without making gross generalizations. So all that remain is generalizations. A pilot less skilled in one area may be able to compensate for this by the use of a better aircraft, to aquire better skills in another area (situational awareness f ex) or both.
In reference to Urchin's statement, which is more of the nature of expressing a opinion than that of presenting fact, I am a living example which disprove his standpoint. I fly the 190D somewhere around 85-90% of my ingame time, and would like to think of myself as a decent stick in that type and more than capable of shooting down a F4U. In the end, it comes down to who's piloting it and his ability to handle the situation. However sometimes it's just a matter of my capacity or lack thereof to place rounds where they need to be.
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I've been thinking about it since yesterday and can't think of anything; else what am I missing?
Fuel status awareness.
You know. The ability to leave the combat area with enough fuel to avoid being shot down by someone you'd normally be able to defeat easily.
So many things to remember.
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I know the F4U is going to turn better
The 190D is faster, climbs better and, rolls better.
The advantage would seem to be w/ the 190 however I don't get killed by them much.....Except yesterday when I had run out of fuel and Pervert got me....He made a good shot, I don't want to take credit away from him. I still don't normally lose to a 190 unless; I never saw him, or I run out of fuel/was already damaged. Normally a 190D attacking me works like this: He started w/ more altitude, makes a pass at high speed I wait for his inevitable spiral climb....I normally say to myself "oh geez can't they do anything else?" I'll avoid the attempt to rope me and I keep going until I reset the fight at a similar level of E. At that time I'm generally able to reverse, lead turn him from head on and, by that point he has to decide to turn fight me....I'll win, go away and come back w/more E to try again or, just go home.
I've been thinking about it since yesterday and can't think of anything; else what am I missing?
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I agree that it really does boil down to pilot ability. The 190 Dora can play the energy game and if the pilot is patient enough he can get the corsair low and slow. I'm not a fan of putting the corsair into 'zeke mode', slow with flaps out, because it's a bigger target than other turn birds. On the other hand, the Corsair has very good energy retention qualities, so it can give the Dora a heck of a fight. It all boils down on who can manage their energy better.
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In any sort of fight the f4u is going to eat a 190 up. The 190s options are to wait for a pick, make a couple bore n zoom passes and run, and burn off all his e trying for a quick kill. If he doesn't get it within the first 15-20 seconds, his choice is to run or die. If its a 190a he won't even be able to run.
Its not that bad Urchin. The 190 Dora has much better e-building ability. If the Wurger pilot is *patient* he will be able to build enough margin for a high-side guns pass. The only factor of difficulty is the Corsair's ability to remain nose up and practically 0 airspeed and get lucky with long range pings.
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Yeah I remember this although I have no film so I don't know which one of the 2 hogs you were until I shot you down, tbh and I hope you won't take this the wrong way, even from a posistion of disadvantage it was pretty easy to avoid you guns and you and the other fella burnt your E advantage sticking the stick in your gut for a quick shot. Once a friendly came in and kept your buddys attention, with a 6 posistion on you I can decide how much E your burning relative to me burn less go vertical and let you hang yourself, your only chance there is another friendly helping you or as BnZs says a lucky long range shot in the stall.
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F4u vs 190D....
so just add a 109k4 to get into a turn fight with the f4u and have the 190 blow through and pick the f4u. :aok
... more points if he collides with the f4u too.
Rudboi doesn't remember this from last night or anything... :D
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Noah,
I know you know my skill with an F4U, you may not know I'm a terrible 190 stick. But I know the Corsair well enough to know that I can beat it fairly easily with a little patience with a 190D. You simply must use the 190's far superior accelleration, and consistently stay in a verticle fight with the hog, never letting the hog go nose down, and never letting it have a long enough straight run to build up any speed. You basically ends up working like this. Co E Co alt pass, both planes will go verticle, second pass (where the 190 has to be carefull), you'll have to take the hog verticle again and the more verticle the better. After two verticle passes the hog should be drained. After passing the hog on the 2nd merge extend a little bit, enough to take your Dora verticle again, but not far enough that the hog will regain enough E to do the same. On the next merge this will force the hog to do one of two things, either have to slightly nose down to follow your next verticle merge (giving up alt), or flat turn under you giving up even more speed. Either case you are above and a higher potential E state. Once in this position the fight is under your control.
The opposite side of this, if I know I'm going into a fight with a superior accelarating plane I'm going for the high ground early. With a Hog this means trying to come into the fight higher or if possible diving in outside of icon range, so I'm coming in with a mountain of speed. Making my first merge as verticle as possible trying to have the eg. Dora fight up from the start.
Fortunately for most hog drivers, patience isn't something commonly seen in the MA's :lol
:salute
BigRat
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Noah,
I know you know my skill with an F4U, you may not know I'm a terrible 190 stick. But I know the Corsair well enough to know that I can beat it fairly easily with a little patience with a 190D. You simply must use the 190's far superior accelleration, and consistently stay in a verticle fight with the hog, never letting the hog go nose down, and never letting it have a long enough straight run to build up any speed. You basically ends up working like this. Co E Co alt pass, both planes will go verticle, second pass (where the 190 has to be carefull), you'll have to take the hog verticle again and the more verticle the better. After two verticle passes the hog should be drained. After passing the hog on the 2nd merge extend a little bit, enough to take your Dora verticle again, but not far enough that the hog will regain enough E to do the same. On the next merge this will force the hog to do one of two things, either have to slightly nose down to follow your next verticle merge (giving up alt), or flat turn under you giving up even more speed. Either case you are above and a higher potential E state. Once in this position the fight is under your control.
The opposite side of this, if I know I'm going into a fight with a superior accelarating plane I'm going for the high ground early. With a Hog this means trying to come into the fight higher or if possible diving in outside of icon range, so I'm coming in with a mountain of speed. Making my first merge as verticle as possible trying to have the eg. Dora fight up from the start.
Fortunately for most hog drivers, patience isn't something commonly seen in the MA's :lol
:salute
BigRat
I've got to agree there...
The Dora can really make it tough on an F4U-1A if the pilot is patient. The same is true for the 109 vs the F4U.
It's a lot like the F4U vs Zeke or Spit. If the F4U is patient and uses his plane to his advantage, there's not a lot of hope for the slower plane.
Speed and climb-rate mean a ton!
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Good points all.
Patience is one thing I don't always have and I fly at my worst if I'm in a bad mood. I end up getting low in the weeds and inevitably get bounced. Not a place for the F4U to be........
:salute
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I disagree. The 190s are so unmaneuverable that any advantage they have on paper is pretty much negated in practice.
If its a co-alt, 1v1 merge and I'm in an F4U, I'm not even going to go vertical at the first merge. I'll avoid the inevitable HO, and keep my speed up in a sweeping (horizontal) turn as the Dora goes up. If the Dora really cranks it around I know right then he has lost his speed advantage - so I'll tighten my turn up to present him with my 3 or 9. If he really tries for the shot he'll blow any energy margin he has away and probably miss anyway. If he makes a half-assed pass, he'll definitely miss the shot and we'll be back to square one.
If the Dora wants to bleed my speed down to the point where I'll have a tough time dodging his pass, he will have to aggressively persecute the fight - and if he does that our E states will converge. Once that happens, even if the Dora has an initial position advantage his only options are to run or die.
Or wait for some friends and come back for a pick but that was already covered.
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Urhin what you are describing is a fight vs a 190 whose pilot simply does not know how to fly a 190D to its advantages. Admittedly most players in AH don't and make the mistake to handle it like a turn fighter. Something the Dora simply isn't and flying it that way will only get you shot down. If a 190D try to keep up with a F4U maneuvering it's doomed, so it's very simple. Stay fast and work the angles while retaining as much E as you can. This technique can be used in any type of aircraft by the way and is superior to turn fighting, but few ever bother to try and learn it because somehow furballing is considered the finer point of the art by many. :huh
You will never be able to make up for bad tactical decisions through maneuvering unless you fly the more maneuverable aircraft in a fight, get lucky or is up against a bad stick. This is why the good 190 sticks become good tacticians, because they have to. While the furballers call them names out of frustration because of their inability to get to them.
Tactics and maneuvering should not be confused. They are related but not the same. A maneuver is the result of a tactical decision whether you are aware of it or not. Tactics involve time, angles, position and speed while maneuvering is what is required to change these factors. I'd argue that when furballers lock on to a target to pursue it they are not thinking tactically, because they disregard everything else. I'm not saying every furballer do this, but it's a common mistake which I too have made hundreds of times literally.
Anyway, just wanted to chip in because I don't think it's fair to the 190D (or any type for that matter) to describe its best performance based on a mediocre or bad stick.
One of the best overall fighters in the game is without doubt the Spit XVI, it can E fight, turn fight and everything in between. But we rarely if ever see it flown to its true advantages simply because those who fly the spit16 are usually in love with only one aspect of it.
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The point I was making is that in a 1v1, the D-9 simply cannot do what you describe as " Stay fast and work the angles while retaining as much E as you can. This technique can be used in any type of aircraft by the way and is superior to turn fighting, but few ever bother to try and learn it because somehow furballing is considered the finer point of the art by many.
It isn't able to manuever hard enough to keep the pressure on an F4U without bleeding off so much E that the only option the D-9 stick has is to run if it can't get the kill in the first 10-20 seconds (and against a competent F4U stick, he won't be able to).
Of course, I am referring to actually fighting. If your idea of the pinnacle of "tactics" is to make one pass, run for 6.5 clicks and zoooooooooooooooooooooom until you stall, then come back for another pass if the guy you are "fighting" is actually fighting someone else then you are right, the D-9 is a helluva good "fighter".
It isn't as good as the Temp/Tiffy, or the P-51 (imo anyway), but the speed and good acceleration at least make it easy to run away when the guy you are "fighting" figures out you are "fighting" him.
As true E-fighters, the 190s are atrocious. As Bore n Zoom cherrypickers they are marginally better - but the poor visibility and mediocre firepower means they aren't truly great at that either.
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Interesting perspective but you seem more interested in argumentation rather than a honest discussion of facts. I do not feel inclined to follow you into that snakepit.
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All I can give is my opinion based on what I know of the planes in the game. I am not interested in blowing smoke up anyones ass.
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I think both Vortex and Urchin make good points and, any plane has to be flown to it's strengths to win. I just don't know for sure if the 190D can bring it's real historic ability to the game.
What I mean by that is that in the game it should be almost an unbelievably dominant aircraft but I don't feel it is. I was hoping to be proved a little wrong or, clued in to what I was missing. Anyone who's read my thread's knows I'm an F4U guy but, I've flown the 190D a couple times too and although I really like the plane it seems like you can't really dominate a fight like you think you might. I was hoping to learn something a good 190stick might do for my own use. I remember in Shaw's book a paragraph from a 51 pilot fighting a 190D (maybe John Meyer?) where the 51 pilot was in a fight vs. a 190D and couldn't gain an advantage. I'd like to learn more about that.
Fighting in the vertical is superior to the TnB and the 190D should do this well however; as well as it rolls to line up a target on it's dive it seems very easy to alter your course and keep yourself out of the 190's sights enough to avoid getting killed.
As long as I'm not willing to let myself get roped and avoid HO's the plane is not much more than a nuisance. It has such a wide turn arc that it's easy to roll out of it's way. The only other way he'll get me is if I throw away my SA or, like the earlier fight I mentioned I ran out of fuel and was coasting along at 125 MPH (sometimes you should just let a friend get killed so that he'll learn not go drop in to the weeds and call you down to help...thereby getting yourself killed too lol).
SA is easier to maintain in AH than it was in WWII. Here we have Bar and Dot Dar and, Icon's. IMO the 190D is defeated by these more then it is by other planes or pilot skill because you know where it is and what it can do. The only way I've seen for a Dora to rack up big kills is staying level around 5k and racing back and forth through the furball hoping that someone flys relatively close enough in front so that the con can be hit with a cannon shot. The BnZ takes the 190 a lot more time as it seems to normally need at least several passes if it is going to have any luck and, doing that means the 190 is going to sacrifice it's own SA and could get jumped by someone else in the process.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
:salute
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Noah,
Easily enough tested. Catch me in the TA, I can up a Dora and you can up a 1a and we can see how this works. It's very easy to do in a K4 by the method I described earlier, I'm a terrible 190 pilot but I'd be using the same strategy with a plane with similiar power to weight, so it should work. In theory I should be in control of the fight in 3 merges, given a first equal merge.
Now saying that, I've had good 190 pilots fly against me in a 1a, and if you are real carefull with your E retention in the 1a you can give them a real hard time and make them pay for the slightest mistake. But in all these fights it was always the 190D that controlled the tempo of the fight for the most part, eg. it could disengage and reset much easier then I could. The biggest reason for this is it's much better accelleration and therefore quicker raising of E state.
:salute
BigRat
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In game the D-9 does have an advantage over the P-51 (again, in my opinion). The P-51 isn't anywhere near as manueverable as the F4U.
I think people read accounts of the 190s and say to themselves "There is no way that a plane this awful could have been a replacement for the 109!". I think that happens especially when you compare the 109 family to the 190 family - the 109s are outstanding fighters. They are manueverable, they climb like scalded cats, and they accelerate like rockets. They have fairly poor views out of the cockpit and poor firepower, but they have excellent performance.
The 190s on the other hand are about as manueverable as an airborne brick, climb like de-clawed cats (the D-9 isn't too bad, at speed anyway).
However, the 190s do offer relatively docile handling at speed (where 109s are decidedly unresponsive), and they have better firepower than the 109 family. Air combat in WW2 wasn't anything like air combat in Aces High. The D-9 brings its 'real historical strengths' to the game, but those are not the strengths that offer a real performance advantage in the game.
1v1 an F4U will eat up a 190. 10v10, the D-9s should eat up the F4Us. That is the 'historic ability' of the 190.
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As long as I'm not willing to let myself get roped and avoid HO's the plane is not much more than a nuisance. It has such a wide turn arc that it's easy to roll out of it's way. The only other way he'll get me is if I throw away my SA or, like the earlier fight I mentioned I ran out of fuel and was coasting along at 125 MPH (sometimes you should just let a friend get killed so that he'll learn not go drop in to the weeds and call you down to help...thereby getting yourself killed too lol).
A few points your friend was not in the weeds, it was you being chased down by me, your buddy came in with the alt advantage and cleared your tail. You could have rtb'ed there and then but decided to stick around now it was 2v1 to your advantage, and for all the reasons you have posted so far in this thread you presumed the 190d would be an easy kill, you and the other guy overshot every attempt at guns and blew your E cranking your plane around for the quick shot or failed to keep enough pressure on me for me to lose or keep building my E, this went on for 5 + minutes, when a friendly strayed into the mix to make it 2v2 you decided to rtb and dove to the deck at this point I was at 6k and so was your friendly.
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It was a long time since I regarded the F4U1a a threat in the MA. They are easy kills for a Dora flown tactically correct.
I'll add to this that flying a 1v1 is very different and negates the pre-positioning before the fight. This plays heavily in favor of the F4U unless the D can stay out of its gunsight long enough to gain advantage through acceleration or climb. If it's a 1v1 starting on equal terms between a 190D and a F4U4, the 190D is dead meat. A 190D pilot simply can't engage in a fight on equal terms with a F4U4 and expect to survive, that's where situational awareness and sound tactics are decisive in the MA or any other type of arena encounter. If a pilot rely too much on the performance of his aircraft he will get tactically sloppy and develop bad habits, or otherwise known as "the F16 syndrome".
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I'll add to this that flying a 1v1 is very different and negates the pre-positioning before the fight. This plays heavily in favor of the F4U unless the D can stay out of its gunsight long enough to gain advantage through acceleration or climb. If it's a 1v1 starting on equal terms between a 190D and a F4U4, the 190D is dead meat. A 190D pilot simply can't engage in a fight on equal terms with a F4U4 and expect to survive, that's where situational awareness and sound tactics are decisive in the MA or any other type of arena encounter.
Thanks Vortex, that's kinda what I was getting at.A few points your friend was not in the weeds, it was you being chased down by me, your buddy came in with the alt advantage and cleared your tail. You could have rtb'ed there and then but decided to stick around now it was 2v1 to your advantage, and for all the reasons you have posted so far in this thread you presumed the 190d would be an easy kill, you and the other guy overshot every attempt at guns and blew your E cranking your plane around for the quick shot or failed to keep enough pressure on me for me to lose or keep building my E, this went on for 5 + minutes, when a friendly strayed into the mix to make it 2v2 you decided to rtb and dove to the deck at this point I was at 6k and so was your friendly.
Pervert this thread isn't about you and, the person I dropped down to help was not my squaddie that came along in the F4U afterwards. If you would like to start a "F4U-1A w/no engine vs. 190D with an engine thread" go ahead......I never said/presumed that anything flown by anyone in AH is an easy kill.
BigRat are you still in the TA at the same times? I'll see if I can find the account of the 51D pilot I was thinking of and try to drop by....That would be a very constructive/helpful way of learning something. Thanks for offering.
Thanks again for everyones thoughts I appreciate it and my original intent was not intended to to call any plane/pilot out, throw under a bus, or anything like that. I was just looking to learn more about an aircraft that was a great one in WWII and compare it's use here.
:salute
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There's a certain irony in the fact that the D model is considered one of the best fighters of the war. The FW190D was never anything but a interim emergency solution which became the most effective Luftwaffe fighter fielded in any relevant numbers.
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Pervert this thread isn't about you and, the person I dropped down to help was not my squaddie that came along in the F4U afterwards. If you would like to start a "F4U-1A w/no engine vs. 190D with an engine thread" go ahead......I never said/presumed that anything flown by anyone in AH is an easy kill.
I don't regard it as you 'calling me out' I'm trying to help you. This thread is about an incident you had with me in the MA
the 190 however I don't get killed by them much.....Except yesterday when I had run out of fuel and Pervert got me....He made a good shot, I don't want to take credit away from him.
I can read and understand the bit in red, and yes there is no offence taken on my part.
Had a lot more typed out here but deleted it, it isn't worth my time tbh good luck.
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1v1 an F4U will eat up a 190. 10v10, the D-9s should eat up the F4Us. That is the 'historic ability' of the 190.
With the exception of the TA 152 and the 190D, I've only been able to have success in the MA with the 190 when I start the fight with and alt adv, and only then, if I am able to keep the adv. One of the challenges that is not at all like WW2 is that as soon as you kill someone, the tower out and up again, this time coming back to the fight above where they encountered you the previous time.
As a result, if I am forced to get slow for defensive reasons (ie do a reversal and get the overshoot w/ snapshot), I am usually toast, as many more planes subsequently saddle up and its over.
I would love to learn how to learn how to fight with the 190s from a disadvantaged position successfully.
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It all depends on whos flying the plane, but In this case with a skilled pilot the 1A checkmates the 190D <IMO>.
<S> greens
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Interesting perspective but you seem more interested in argumentation rather than a honest discussion of facts. I do not feel inclined to follow you into that snakepit.
I think he's being quite factual. Pretending you're Marseille in a D9 (any 190 really) is very difficult. It is much better suited for those who emulate Hartmann.
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Of course, I am referring to actually fighting. If your idea of the pinnacle of "tactics" is to make one pass, run for 6.5 clicks and zoooooooooooooooooooooom until you stall, then come back for another pass if the guy you are "fighting" is actually fighting someone else then you are right, the D-9 is a helluva good "fighter".
That is a pretty lame straw-man, even if it does represent the norm in the MA.
A good E-fighter knows that it's not useful to wait too long to start the reverse/climb for the rope. The guy who is chasing you needs to be gently guided down the primrose path. If done right, you will hand your opponent the noose and he will hang himself.
I have done slow spirals in 190s vs much better turn fighters that have less climb. The result depends on the quality of the other pilot. If he's good, he either avoids me entirely or is able to stay out of my gunsights when I do my reverse. If he's not so good... he usually ends up dead.
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That is a pretty lame straw-man, even if it does represent the norm in the MA.
A good E-fighter knows that it's not useful to wait too long to start the reverse/climb for the rope. The guy who is chasing you needs to be gently guided down the primrose path. If done right, you will hand your opponent the noose and he will hang himself.
I have done slow spirals in 190s vs much better turn fighters that have less climb. The result depends on the quality of the other pilot. If he's good, he either avoids me entirely or is able to stay out of my gunsights when I do my reverse. If he's not so good... he usually ends up dead.
A good E-fighter gets his target so excited that said target makes a mistake and is destroyed...
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I think he's being quite factual. Pretending you're Marseille in a D9 (any 190 really) is very difficult. It is much better suited for those who emulate Hartmann.
I didn't say that it was easy, nor am I pretending anything. I just can't relate to people who somehow think it's lame to extend or even disengage from combat because you're in a unfavorable position, it's routine in ACM. If you can't catch the guy, good for him. Sometimes I disengage solely because I don't like the positioning, speed or angles only to come back unexpectedly. There is no logical reasoning behind laying the blame on me because someone else decide I'm no longer a threat and decide to scan a different section of the sky. They are to blame for they made a bad decision in not paying attention. In real life dead people don't talk. In AH they come back and nag, or post away on the bbs pretending to be hotshots. These are facts and I do believe we can all agree on them because it should be obvious.
I rarely engage in these bbs discussions because they are largely fruitless. If someone knowledgeable despite these facts decide to enlighten the mob with accurate information the ignorant ones will come back and take a dump on him as a thankyou for sticking out his nose. Unless he happens to have a background in the RAF or USAF then they revert to humping his ankles. On the bbs everyone are their own expert, and I'm not trying to tell people otherwise. It really is a waste of time.
So in conclusion I'll tell you that the F4U, regardless of type, will own a FW190D any time if the pilot has enough skill and brains.
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Air combat in WW2 wasn't anything like air combat in Aces High. The D-9 brings its 'real historical strengths' to the game, but those are not the strengths that offer a real performance advantage in the game.
Urchin hit it out out of the park with this statement.
Very few pilots from WWII were real 'killers', most of them were inexperienced and scared kids where a moderate speed advantage over their rivals also increased the margin of safety. In Aces High, you'll find those that 'yank and bank' know the edge of the envelope much better than their historical counterparts, mostly from repetition.
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I didn't mean "pretending" to come off as an insult - I was under the impression that we are all pretending one thing or another in this cartoon airplane game. I do think that one camp of players "defends" their actions saying "look at hartmann!" while another group says, "look at Marseille." You apparently fall into the Hartmann camp.
I'm not making judgments on that one way or another. This isn't the forum for them.
I didn't say that it was easy, nor am I pretending anything. I just can't relate to people who somehow think it's lame to extend or even disengage from combat because you're in a unfavorable position, it's routine in ACM. If you can't catch the guy, good for him. Sometimes I disengage solely because I don't like the positioning, speed or angles only to come back unexpectedly. There is no logical reasoning behind laying the blame on me because someone else decide I'm no longer a threat and decide to scan a different section of the sky. They are to blame for they made a bad decision in not paying attention. In real life dead people don't talk. In AH they come back and nag, or post away on the bbs pretending to be hotshots. These are facts and I do believe we can all agree on them because it should be obvious.
I rarely engage in these bbs discussions because they are largely fruitless. If someone knowledgeable despite these facts decide to enlighten the mob with accurate information the ignorant ones will come back and take a dump on him as a thankyou for sticking out his nose. Unless he happens to have a background in the RAF or USAF then they revert to humping his ankles. On the bbs everyone are their own expert, and I'm not trying to tell people otherwise. It really is a waste of time.
So in conclusion I'll tell you that the F4U, regardless of type, will own a FW190D any time if the pilot has enough skill and brains.
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I do think that one camp of players "defends" their actions saying "look at hartmann!" while another group says, "look at Marseille." You apparently fall into the Hartmann camp.
I honestly don't understand how you come to that conclusion. It is no matter to me.
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I honestly don't understand how you come to that conclusion. It is no matter to me.
Well, read up on how they both approached air combat, and then re-read the posts in this thread where you have described how you approach air combat.
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I respectfully disagree, and am not unfamiliar with the pilots you mentioned.
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Marseille = Famous for having 'grizz' like aim and made slashing attacks at Allied Lufbery formations.
Heartman = Stalked from above, dove in with the sun on his back, killing in one pass and shooting when super close.
Its hard to compare their styles because their styles developed as a reaction to the environment they were fighting in and the planes they attacked.
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Marseille = Famous for having 'grizz' like aim and made slashing attacks at Allied Lufbery formations.
Heartman = Stalked from above, dove in with the sun on his back, killing in one pass and shooting when super close.
Its hard to compare their styles because their styles developed as a reaction to the environment they were fighting in and the planes they attacked.
I'd say one was famous for taking stupid risks while the other was not.
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I stopped reading after the Urchin/Vortex33 debate, but
Hey Noah17,
you said you usually end up down in the weeds in the F4U-1A? if so, the F4U-1A is faster than the FW190D9 under 2.5K Alt...... that is one place that the F4U1A will ultimately wear out the 190D9 , when fighting under 2.5K alt
hope this helps
TC
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Pervert, I honestly thank you for trying to add to the thread. I complimented you earlier because it was truly a good shot however I didn't intend to make this thread about that particular sortie. I had flown a bunch that day and in a few different areas of the map. It just happened that there were a couple more 190D's around that day. I've been in flight sims/AH for about 1 1/2 years now and have had many experiences with the Dora but had never bothered to ask until now so, if it appeared that it was any reflection upon you or that particular sortie it was unintended and my apologies.
Vudak earlier said that the style of flying that would be more successful here is Hartmann like; I agree....Of course you can fly it like you want to.....All I've been trying to figure out is other than the rope or, shooting while unseen what are some great ways to land kills quickly in the 190D and, if so will it be useful for the F4U jock? If you're constantly trying to rope people that will get you killed in an area congested with bad guys; it's time consuming. As, you're slow at the top somebody will come along co-alt and kill you. Or if you have to make 3 - 4 passes to get someone slow; while your doing so someone again comes along and kills you or chases you away.
A 51 or F4U is better at the BnZ because they have a better combination of roll AND pull. Any 190 will roll better than those 2 but, when you're done rolling you're still gonna need your elevator's. In a dive either of these 2 can pull the nose on a target while the 190 is giving you the "buffet" noise when you pull more than a little. If you use energy saving moves/vertical turns the F4U retains energy so well that you can sidestep the 190 almost all day if you're 1 on 1. As much as he is waiting for me to go too vertical and rope myself, I'm waiting for him to pull too hard in a turn and stall or, if he's diving on me go too far below me and then I'm above chasing him. Of, course if there is a big mix of good and bad guys there are too many variables. I think communication/check 6 here is even more important than the plane or individual skill.
I don't want to thread to be about who is right and who is wrong, I think everybody has made some interesting points. I'm just trying to learn something new.
Salute All!!
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I stopped reading after the Urchin/Vortex33 debate, but
Hey Noah17,
you said you usually end up down in the weeds in the F4U-1A? if so, the F4U-1A is faster than the FW190D9 under 2.5K Alt...... that is one place that the F4U1A will ultimately wear out the 190D9 , when fighting under 2.5K alt
hope this helps
TC
No way?!?!? Huh? I thought it (190D) was second fastest on the deck after the LA?
And yes that would help! LOL
According to the speed charts 190d is faster w/WEP.
:salute
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I lost about a good 1000 190D9s tryin to figure how to turnfight it. Conclusion is it shouldn't be turnfight against anything but the BnZ planes like it. IE: 190s, P51 ( though good tnbner will work the hell outta other 190s, good thing most AH 51 sux at tnb ), Tiffies. People can moan and cry about 190 not engaging in a tnb 1 v 1, especially if they're in spitty and brewies talking smack. Just ignore em and don't fall for their game. Now if you were in a 109s then hell tnb all day. E fight til you're outta E then tnb til you die xD
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you said you usually end up down in the weeds in the F4U-1A? if so, the F4U-1A is faster than the FW190D9 under 2.5K Alt.....
Only at MIL, not under WEP.
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No way?!?!? Huh? I thought it (190D) was second fastest on the deck after the LA?
And yes that would help! LOL
According to the speed charts 190d is faster w/WEP.
:salute
Keep in mind though that 2.5k is almost nothing, so fairly regular zooms will take you out of that advantageous altitude layer.
I checked the charts and according to those it's only for MIL. WEP'd the D9 is faster.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/images/b/b5/190d9spd.jpg)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/images/c/ca/F4u1aspd.jpg)
dang, snails are faster than me.
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You can match any turn radius with roll, and the tighter they turn the better it is for the dora. The concept of a shaping a vertical roll to match a horizontal turn elludes 90% of the ma imo. Noah thats no problem mate. I am a big fan of finding out the reality of a situation you should film your sorties and review i found that what really happens and what i thought happened are rarely the same. This is the point i was trying to make sorry if it came across in the wrong way mate. <S>
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You can match any turn radius with roll, and the tighter they turn the better it is for the dora. The concept of a shaping a vertical roll to match a horizontal turn elludes 90% of the ma imo. Noah thats no problem mate. I am a big fan of finding out the reality of a situation you should film your sorties and review i found that what really happens and what i thought happened are rarely the same. This is the point i was trying to make sorry if it came across in the wrong way mate. <S>
Pervert, I have spent a fair amount of time messing with displace rolls to do much the same, can you go into more detail about this... I'd like to learn more about it, esp setting it up and the timing of it.