Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: PuppetZ on March 22, 2011, 10:37:05 PM
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I was test driving the f4u-1a tonight in TA. I had stall limiter off as I try to get accustomed to it. I experienced very frightening situation of deep stall when I felt I didn't push the envelope much. I was doing around 250 and pulled a LH flat turn not even blacking out. The plane quickly became very jerky and stalled all of a sudden without giving much of a warning. It was brutal. One second I was flying a plane half a second later I was rinding a brick. Do I try to fly it too slow or what? Should I employ flaps at these speed? I usually fly the a6m5 and never touch the flaps. The f4u's seem very touchy...
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I've been flying the 1D around my self (Im new so take this as a grain of salt.)But I have noticed that the 1D starts with two notches of flaps already at startup. I assume this is because that they are Carrier Craft and is needed for take off. But could this be your probably be your problem as well? I hope it helps. But if it doesn't. I'm sorry, and I am sure that someone will come over with better information for you :)
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Two flaps on spawn sounds like auto-take off is turned on.
Riding the stall of a plane is comparable, from an input POV, to riding the edge of traction on a car. You want to be riding the edge as smoothly as possible. Doing this you'll get a good feel for the limits of a given plane, and also find its behavior beyond the limits a little less abruptly. This way you'll have a clearer feel of where the plane is going in that departure, and have more time to straighten it if you wish.
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Well, that certainly could be the case for me, I use auto take off most of the time. I just thought that could be the issue with Puppetz stalling issue as well. :) I know flaps are to help keep stability at lower speeds. But they also burn a lot more speed off, especially if you are not expecting them to be already engaged.
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Flaps generally make planes mushier even if they're almost or already "bottomed out". If he was a bit flapped out, the abrupt departure could be due to his not realizing how near the edge of the envelope he was because of the flaps "masking" effect on what would otherwise clearly be serious departure.
It's really best to try to film everything. With film you can really cut to the chase on what went wrong, and then move on to explore any related what-if's.
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If you're familiar with the term "load factor" (if not, do a google search) then you know that if you pull 2Gs in a turn, you increase the weight of the plane to double its 1G weight. This means you have to create twice the lift, generally speaking, to compensate. If you don't create sufficient lifties, you'll stall. This is called an accelerated stall, because the planes stalls at an airspeed higher than its 1G stall speed. A Zero is almost impossible to get into an accelerated stall, unless it is very slow, because you will typically black out or run out of pitch authority before you can get it into an a stall. A Corsair is much heavier, so in hard turns, you have to be careful not to load up the plane too much. You'll get used to it eventually, and will learn how to ride the edge without taking it beyond.
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I don't understand flight as much as others. I'm more of a if it does this, then do this type of guy.
You took the stall limiter off. Did you reset the elevator axis to 1 or slightly less than 1 going up to 1? Do not change the roll axis from default. You can change the rudder a bit though. You have to feel that out. If you kept it at default then it becomes jerky and you lose lift under your wings because you are use to jerking it around with no bad effects. Another thing is, as some one else I think was pointing out, you have to match throttle to air speed. Tough to learn. So if you are stuttering, cut throttle and add flaps.
I suggest going to the TA and feeling this stuff out.
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It could also be Puppetz' stick spiking.
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I was test driving the f4u-1a tonight in TA. I had stall limiter off as I try to get accustomed to it. I experienced very frightening situation of deep stall when I felt I didn't push the envelope much. I was doing around 250 and pulled a LH flat turn not even blacking out. The plane quickly became very jerky and stalled all of a sudden without giving much of a warning. It was brutal. One second I was flying a plane half a second later I was rinding a brick. Do I try to fly it too slow or what? Should I employ flaps at these speed? I usually fly the a6m5 and never touch the flaps. The f4u's seem very touchy...
250 indicated or true?
if you're not used to stall limiter being off you'll be flying more bricks than you think you should...
Few things about the F4U line:
--The landing gears were made to deploy at high speed as an airbrake (really useful in some situations but also changes the center of gravity)
--Most flaps on american planes are maneuvering flaps. The F4Us can deploy limited flaps at higher speed than many planes to do so. Just make sure that when doing this you go flaps up immediately after youre done with them (one notch flaps sometimes may be the best choice over full flaps extended)
--It is also an extremely maneuverable plane but the F4U1 line (A,C,D and original) can lose their energy extremely fast if not conserved correctly and it can be hard to get out of low and slow fights without a plan (this slow fighting without flaps can lead to stalling).
--Getting slow in an F4U is very easy. Getting back to speed isnt as easy (although easier than other aircraft). But the F4U can also keep its speed and energy very well also. ZnB tactics can work well in them but once this doesnt work it'll turn for you and keep you alive low and slow. Just make sure theres no more enemy near you when you try to get out of what you got into.
Any F4U fanatics please chime in with any fixes to what i have said, the F4U is my favorite CV plane but not the plane im most experienced with (P51s P38s)
BTW... A6Ms work really well over the top with flaps sometimes :aok
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I was test driving the f4u-1a tonight in TA. I had stall limiter off as I try to get accustomed to it. I experienced very frightening situation of deep stall when I felt I didn't push the envelope much. I was doing around 250 and pulled a LH flat turn not even blacking out. The plane quickly became very jerky and stalled all of a sudden without giving much of a warning. It was brutal. One second I was flying a plane half a second later I was rinding a brick. Do I try to fly it too slow or what? Should I employ flaps at these speed? I usually fly the a6m5 and never touch the flaps. The f4u's seem very touchy...
Puppetz, I really would like to help you figure out the F4U series
you say yo was doing 250 ( was this IAS or TAS? IAS = Indicated Air Speed = white needle TAS = True Air Speed = Red needle ) for all intents and purposes when I ( and I figure most others) talk about maneuvering in a plane and at what speeds they all usually refer to IAS (Indicated Air Speed / White needle )
ok, at 250 IAS and lets say 5,000 ft altitude....you say you went into a flat left hand turn er/or Left hand horizontal turn then you was in to a stall with in a 1/2 second.... with this information provided, all I can assume is you entered an accelerated stall or entered to high of an Angle of Attack ( or AoA ), even though you did not enter a blackout which at 250 IAS(or even TAS at this speed) you would be right near the point of where it be hard to pull the 6 G's needed to go into blackout you may be able to get to some possible tunnel vision perhaps though..... or may be briefly enter a slight black outbefore bleeding your speed down
sorry I am sleepy and I feel like I am repeating myself....
some other things that might of thrown you into a stall so quickly could have been the use of elevator /ailerons and rudder in a crossed control use or mixture of something similar.....this is especially easy if one uses a Twisty Stick Rudder....... without film it is really hard to say what exactly caused you to stall though.......
as for the 2 notches of flaps when using Auto Take Off...... several patches back. HTC incorporated this on the F4U1D, F4U1C ( and I think F4U4 ). I do not think or recall the F4U-1A or F4U-1 having their flaps lowered 2 notches though.......only the later 3 F4U's I have noticed this..... this was done to help newer player learn to get off the CV deck easier when launching
back to the F4U-1A doing a flat or horizontal turn at 250 IAS...... you should be able to pull a pretty hard turn at that speedat a mid to high G load of 3 to 5.5 or so without any problems, and it is personal preference if one would want to deploy the 1st notch of flaps or not, depending on the situation they are currently in
hope this makes sense, and hope it helps
TC
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--The landing gears were made to deploy at high speed as an airbrake (really useful in some situations but also changes the center of gravity)
I really don't like this. Some people seem to feel it works, but the only situations where I use the landing gear in combat is 1) my initial dive into a fight when I have a significant altitude advantage and don't want to overspeed, or 2) when dive-bombing ground targets. The landing gear can bleed off TOO much airspeed, and the earlier model Hogs take too long to get it back again. This is a desperation move, and when I see another F4U drop his gear in a fight I'd say 95% of the time I've got him dead to rights. If my opponent's gear go down in a low-speed turning fight my nose goes UP.
And as usual in these sorts of threads: RUDDER! RUDDER! RUDDER! RUDDER! RUDDER! I can NOT emphasize the rudder of the Corsair enough. The flaps on the Corsair are great, but IMO their importance is somewhat exaggerated and learning to manage that big rudder is even MORE important to flying the Corsair effectively.
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I was test driving the f4u-1a tonight in TA. I had stall limiter off as I try to get accustomed to it. I experienced very frightening situation of deep stall when I felt I didn't push the envelope much. I was doing around 250 and pulled a LH flat turn not even blacking out. The plane quickly became very jerky and stalled all of a sudden without giving much of a warning. It was brutal. One second I was flying a plane half a second later I was rinding a brick. Do I try to fly it too slow or what? Should I employ flaps at these speed? I usually fly the a6m5 and never touch the flaps. The f4u's seem very touchy...
It could simply be that you aren't used to flying with the stall limiter off. I'll just add a little to what was already posted. Whenever you turn you will slow down from lift induced drag. The load that you can put on your wings without stalling decreases when your speed decreases. If you film you can look at your speed and G load in the cockpit and that will help you to understand what happened. The stall limiter will automatically decrease your wing load by decreasing your angle of attack but with the stall limiter off you have to unload by easing your pull on the stick.
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I can see two things for your problem, because at 250 mph you should be able to turn hard without departing into a stall:
1) you simply pull way too hard on your stick and too fast maybe, so you might actualy rather enter into a snap stall.
2) What was your fuel loadout? if your wings were heavy and asymetrical weight between the 2 could have played a role as well.
As someone said earlier a film could help understand better what you did or didn't do.
my 2 cents.
<S>
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Two flaps on spawn sounds like auto-take off is turned on.
I always ride with auto takeoff off so I had no flaps out. Besides I ride with combat trim on and when flaps are out, it make the nose want to go up big time so it's not it.
Puppetz, I really would like to help you figure out the F4U series
you say yo was doing 250 ( was this IAS or TAS? IAS = Indicated Air Speed = white needle TAS = True Air Speed = Red needle ) for all intents and purposes when I ( and I figure most others) talk about maneuvering in a plane and at what speeds they all usually refer to IAS (Indicated Air Speed / White needle )
ok, at 250 IAS and lets say 5,000 ft altitude....you say you went into a flat left hand turn er/or Left hand horizontal turn then you was in to a stall with in a 1/2 second.... with this information provided, all I can assume is you entered an accelerated stall
Good assumption here. about 250 IAS and 2.5K. I tend to fly low (between 3 and 5K) and let them come down to me so that's where I practice.
It could simply be that you aren't used to flying with the stall limiter off.
Whenever you turn you will slow down from lift induced drag. The load that you can put on your wings without stalling decreases when your speed decreases.
with this information provided, all I can assume is you entered an accelerated stall or entered to high of an Angle of Attack ( or AoA )
Right on. I'm not. But I was just real surprised by how fast I entered the departure. The rides I usually fly give much more of a warning. Back to my A6M5, this one will give a fair warning It's about to stall it start to shake and all so you have time to adjust. Not so much in that F4U. I should clarify here what happened. I banked and pulled hard. About 2-3 sec in the turn (probably lost a good deal of speed by that time exacerbated by the fact I have a slight tendency to turn nose high a wee bit) I started to show sign of departure and within that 1/2 sec it went upside down and fell out of the sky. And well these alt if something goes wrong your screwed unless you know what your doing. I lawndarted :eek: .
On another note, I mentioned I like to fly an A6M5, not a lot of speed but good turn capabilities make gun defense much easier IMHO. So my general strategy is like I said is to fly rather low, between 3 and 5K ASL. Most BnZ'ers will have a 2-3 and possibly more alt advantage over me. But they will pick up lots of excess speed diving on me so I kind of try to sucker them into thinking they have an easy shot by pulling a gentle turn and when they get within 1000yds i begin to pull harder to defeat their gun solution. Since they're fast they can't follow. I'm beginning to be good at playing that little game, but I wonder if it would be a sound strategy riding a F4U?
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Sounds like a wing stall possible to angle of attack decreasing lift over the wing allowing the engine torque to contribute to control loss. Snap roll very possible as well. Also, how were the wing tanks loaded at the time? This is my fav plane due to the way it can turn on you.....or bring you home. :cheers:
Throttle management can utilize engine torque to assist riding a stall or mushy controls/over controlling. Flaps are great only when you need them due to drag...get used to working them during a fight.
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Puppetz, you're not listening to me. (I'm insulted hehe). Let's go to the TA and I will prove what I say. Name a time.
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I'm no expert on the F4U but if you want to learn it thoroughly I believe it should help to watch and learn the training film at http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/F4U.html . I know I would. Look at the stall demonstration starting about 13 minutes into the film. Interesting footage regardless.
Good luck!
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Sounds like a snap-stall/snap-roll to me. You can do one on purpose to see if it's the same thing: at 250 go into a left-hand turn. Then move the stick all the way left, then quickly pull down on it. Should send the plane into a violent stall. Add a little opposite rudder and ease off throttle to get out of it.
I don't advocate using it much in combat by the way. Only time it's worked for me was by accident.
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Did you reset the elevator axis to 1 or slightly less than 1 going up to 1?
I don't get what your talking about. How should I do this?
Another thing is, as some one else I think was pointing out, you have to match throttle to air speed. Tough to learn. So if you are stuttering, cut throttle and add flaps.
Won't cutting throttle make me loose speed even faster. Isn't the propeller used to 'pull' the plane trough the turn?
Sorry if I overlooked your post. Next round is on me :cheers:
I could be on tonight around 8 eastern if you still want to show me and are not too offended :D
to myself : boy I'm gonna get my bellybutton kicked again...sigh
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Sounds like a snap-stall to me.
Given what's already been said that's a fair guess. I agree with your assessment of the situation.
I don't advocate using it much in combat by the way. Only time it's worked for me was by accident.
Did it? Well given how fast it rolled and fell, no one gonna be able to follow this one :joystick:
I'll call it my special 'technique' :lol
Fast way to cause an over shoot
hard part is to put your gun on the bad guy...
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Puppet I think Getback is suggesting you scale your stick's pitch axis. It's in the advanced controller setup on the clipboard.
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Puppet I think Getback is suggesting you scale your stick's pitch axis. It's in the advanced controller setup on the clipboard.
So I need to scale so max input do not give max control surface deflection?
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You don't want to lose max deflection. Try the default scaling to start. There is a visual aid that shows you the effect. I suggest default scaling for pitch and rudder. You don't need to scale roll.
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hard part is to put your gun on the bad guy...
Exactly. I'd recommend the barrel roll defense instead: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,276908.msg3476738.html#msg3476738 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,276908.msg3476738.html#msg3476738)
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I always ride with auto takeoff off so I had no flaps out. Besides I ride with combat trim on and when flaps are out, it make the nose want to go up big time so it's not it.
G'afternoon Puppetz,
have you noticed how others have been able to offer more advice since your reply above ( reply shortened to save space )
this time you offered a lot more info / description to what you originally experienced and it gave us all more insight to what really happened.....
as for the bolded outlined part of the shortened quote above........
I recommend reading up on trim in Aces High and how it works
Auto-Trim in Aces High by Lephturn
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/trim/trim.htm
If you would like to get together in the Training Arena with me and work on fine tuning your skills in the F4U, then just shoot me a PM, I be glad to work with you
I for one do not encourage using Combat Trim in the F4U, especially when slow under 200 IAS....... at these speeds the Combat Trim will be an impeding henderance when you want to lower your flaps......
with that said Combat Trim is a personal preference..... but using it it only trims the plane for the given speed as if you were in level flight.. combat Trim does not take into account the extra Lift the flaps will be providing.....
hope this helps
TC
( PM me if you want to set up a Training Session )
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I don't get what your talking about. How should I do this?
Won't cutting throttle make me loose speed even faster. Isn't the propeller used to 'pull' the plane trough the turn?
Sorry if I overlooked your post. Next round is on me :cheers:
I could be on tonight around 8 eastern if you still want to show me and are not too offended :D
to myself : boy I'm gonna get my bellybutton kicked again...sigh
LOL, okay, 8 pm. Bring your ears and listen. Oh you can ask questions hehe.
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,
this time you offered a lot more info / description to what you originally experienced and it gave us all more insight to what really happened.....
Noted. I'll try to be more specific with my future posts. When I originaly posted I was on a hurry because I just quit TA and was going to log on MA ASAP so I did not loose too much play time to wife ack :D ATM it did not happen to me I was way too vague with my description of the event.
I would be honored if you were willing to show me some tricks. I'll PM you so we can work something out. I'm usually available 7-11pm eastern.
I for one do not encourage using Combat Trim in the F4U
Interesting read about CT and AP. I'll look for the way to turn CT off altogether since AP can be used to manage trim and I already make extensive use of that feature. If one take care it can be more efficient that way.
LOL, okay, 8 pm. Bring your ears and listen. Oh you can ask questions hehe.
Ok, I'll be there. Should I bring a six-pack for after? :lol
Do drinking and flying mix? I wonder.....
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Fly a manly plane! Fly a 109! :joystick: :old: :airplane:
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Fly a manly plane! Fly a 109! :joystick: :old: :airplane:
I own 109s. :lol
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Won't cutting throttle make me loose speed even faster. Isn't the propeller used to 'pull' the plane trough the turn?
Yes. Near stall the last thing I would do is reduce power. You need all the thrust you can get. However once the airplane does stall you should reduce power to aid in a quick return to controlled flight.
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I for one do not encourage using Combat Trim in the F4U, especially when slow under 200 IAS.......
The one place I'll disagree here is when you want to quickly neutralize your trim before taking a shot. Otherwise, as TC suggests I generally turn CT off for the most part in the F4U.
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Interesting read about CT and AP. I'll look for the way to turn CT off altogether since AP can be used to manage trim and I already make extensive use of that feature. If one take care it can be more efficient that way.
I'm one of those guys that flies the F4U a fair amount of time too.
What I do with CT is set it "off" by default, but have a button near my thumb mapped to toggle it on/off. That way I can quickly flip it on if I want, but with it defaulted off it never messes me up by being on when i don't want it on.
I also have the trims mapped, and like to trim for straight/level at about 270mph or so.
I use the CT for takeoff, and general flying around. I flip it off when I get into combat that takes me to speeds where I use flaps. If I hang out for a stall, but need to quickly dive I generally get my flaps up, nose down, and CT briefly engaged as I dive. If I get down to about 275 or so again, the CT is turned off...
The F4U does some fantastic things, and IMO is the best and most versatile plane in the game, especially when you factor in the -4. But... It's also one of the "busiest" planes to fly, if your going to get the most out of it. Those flaps need to go up and down quickly depending on the situation, good throttle use is a must (and I certainly wouldn't recommend lowering it near a stall as mentioned; I'd firewall it and hit WEP. In some cases backing it off to recover from a spin is good though, AFTER you've entered the spin), and awesome SA is all-important and potentially difficult with the big nose and canopy plate. CT on and off, or manually trimming as needed. Lots to do, but lots of reward once you figure it out.
Get with a trainer ASAP...
I'm one that doesn't scale my stick settings either. I like all my sliders maxed out along the top for rudder, elevator, and aileron. I like to fly with small, controlled movements, and like the stick to be sensitive. Scaling causes me to over-control, because I don't get as much deflection as I expect with a given stick movement. I don't like the mushy feel scaling gives me. Many players love it though, so it's worth a try.
The F4U can have some nasty stall/spin characteristics, but you can get past them with a little practice. You should have seen the nasty stall/spin my F4U caused in an A6M5 last night, lol.
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What I do with CT is set it "off" by default, but have a button near my thumb mapped to toggle it on/off. That way I can quickly flip it on if I want, but with it defaulted off it never messes me up by being on when i don't want it on.
i'll try to work with that. Since I rigged myself a freetrack cap, I have a few more switch available on my hotas so i mapped manual trim to the old view switch.
Those flaps need to go up and down quickly depending on the situation, good throttle use is a must, and awesome SA is all-important and potentially difficult with the big nose and canopy plate.
I'll need to work these flaps thingy. Alot to coordinate at the same time. Already have my hands full with the manual trim and such. I agree with throttle work. I'm beginning to realize that sometimes it's good to reduce thrust a bit if I only need to dump just a bit of E. Experimented with it tonight vs Soulyss. Had the greatest time since I play this game and nothing even went BOOM! :lol . He's all humble but this man knows his thing. And he can babysit you trough the fight. Kudos to you :aok . I could get angle on his jug with my -1D if I started with a speed/alt advantage. but co-alt, forget it. Good thing he didn't shoot I'd still be crying from :ahand :lol. He does thing with his plane I didn't even think possible(that prop hanging thing was just awesome and if you don't know what I mean see FLS avatar that thing actually going BACKWARD).
SA has gone up alot since I rigged that freetrack thingy. If someone is interested I could show you how to do it for under 30$. Canadian of course :lol .
I'm one that doesn't scale my stick settings either. I like all my sliders maxed out along the top for rudder, elevator, and aileron. I like to fly with small, controlled movements, and like the stick to be sensitive.
The F4U can have some nasty stall/spin characteristics, but you can get past them with a little practice. You should have seen the nasty stall/spin my F4U caused in an A6M5 last night, lol.
I found that the biggest problem with my having trouble controlling the plane was almost all related to my stick scaling. It was rigged at default scaling and it made the f4u almost un-flyable. Like riding a wild stallion. At the advice of Getback, I put all the slider to the top for pitch. Problem gone. And yes, as FLS did remark, it's, indeed, equivalent to no scaling at all. That's what i'll stick with from now on. Sure the A6M5(my usual ride) can be induced to a nasty stall if your not careful. But I got the feeling it's much more forgiving of my noobage (is that even a word?). In the F4U I need speed to turn, or alt of which I don't need that much in the zeek. Of course, SA is all. Bad SA will kill you in any rides. As a matter of fact I read somewhere that most of the plane shot down during ww2 were taken by complete surprise, not even realizing they were followed.
Again thank you so much getback,FLS and soulyss. I'm having a blast and it's in a big way thanks to you guys. :salute :cheers:
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I really don't like this. Some people seem to feel it works, but the only situations where I use the landing gear in combat is 1) my initial dive into a fight when I have a significant altitude advantage and don't want to overspeed, or 2) when dive-bombing ground targets. The landing gear can bleed off TOO much airspeed, and the earlier model Hogs take too long to get it back again. This is a desperation move, and when I see another F4U drop his gear in a fight I'd say 95% of the time I've got him dead to rights. If my opponent's gear go down in a low-speed turning fight my nose goes UP.
And as usual in these sorts of threads: RUDDER! RUDDER! RUDDER! RUDDER! RUDDER! I can NOT emphasize the rudder of the Corsair enough. The flaps on the Corsair are great, but IMO their importance is somewhat exaggerated and learning to manage that big rudder is even MORE important to flying the Corsair effectively.
i've used the gears low and slow. i do it when im about to slightly overshoot my target and keep my throttle full to avoid stalling. 95% of the time for that, im right behind them again shooting his arse off :aok
i also kick my gears when im pulling a maneuver at the top near the stall to avoid being shot, it makes the F4U go nuttier but more stable it seems when im coming out of the forced spin.
Also, when im on the deck, kicking the gears at the right time gets me down just enough speed for an extra notch of flaps to avoid being shot.
Usually throwing my gears down at the right time saves my life and gets me a kill or two...
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I have flown against MtnMan in F4U's a good several times, and outside of my wild arse tantics to really get down in the sub 100 MPH range in dogfights against spitfires, ki84s, zekes when I am in my F4U1.for the most part MtnMan and myself fly the F4U under the same conditions, scale settings, trim settings, etc..... MtnMan prefers 270 range level flight for his trim setting.... I prefer 325 to 340 MPH level flight trimmed....and I leave it trimmed to that level flight speed thruoghout my entire fight.......
instead of ever dropping the gear to bleed my E or slow down...I find it much faster and easier to cross control and stick that F4U Rudder in the wind....it takes less time to do this than it does waiting for the gear to come out and then for the gear to be raised again.........even 1/4 of the gear being in the airstream is adding additional drag when you do not want it
as for the trimming to 325/340 mph range........ I find it helps in everyway ....
-I do not have to deal with nose bounce when trying to put my sights on the enemy...
-I find that I can regain speed quicker when coming over the top or going nose low, because I am not flying against the slow reaction of the trim to catch up to the current speed, etc....
-I find that I do not experience that Nose popping UP each time I have to lower a notch of flaps
as for thinking you have to keep fast and fly and maneuver at a certian speed range...... I always recommend flying whatever aircraft you are in, in the parameters of the planes combat performance/flight envelope ( best sustained turn speed to best corner speed ) when in a dogfight.....to stretch that a little bit more I would extend those endpoints to Stall Speed point to Compression Point......once you have advanced and learned a bit more about the F4U.....
there are tons of stuff to learn about each and every plane....... and regardless of your favorite ride, you must also start learning the Good & Bad attributes of the planes you are going to be coming up against...... so you can learn to access the situation and know what your F4U ( or favorite ride ) is good at or weak at and viceversa against the plane type you are fxing to engage....
this is going to be one of the key things that hooks your interest in wanting to become the best you possibly can in dogfighting these cartoon WWII Fiter Planes...... do not rush it, do not overload your brain .take it easy and learn things a little bit at a time......
some of us have been doing this for 10/15/20 years......and we still learn everyday...... learning and practicing all the while having fun playing is what keeps us coming back......
just don't overload, do not try to learn it all in a day/week/month/year..... trying to do so will only cause you to burn out or become disgruntle and give up.....
look forward to hooking up with ya
TC
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I have flown against MtnMan in F4U's a good several times, and outside of my wild arse tantics to really get down in the sub 100 MPH range in dogfights against spitfires, ki84s, zekes when I am in my F4U1.for the most part MtnMan and myself fly the F4U under the same conditions, scale settings, trim settings, etc..... MtnMan prefers 270 range level flight for his trim setting.... I prefer 325 to 340 MPH level flight trimmed....and I leave it trimmed to that level flight speed thruoghout my entire fight.......
instead of ever dropping the gear to bleed my E or slow down...I find it much faster and easier to cross control and stick that F4U Rudder in the wind....it takes less time to do this than it does waiting for the gear to come out and then for the gear to be raised again.........even 1/4 of the gear being in the airstream is adding additional drag when you do not want it
as for the trimming to 325/340 mph range........ I find it helps in everyway ....
-I do not have to deal with nose bounce when trying to put my sights on the enemy...
-I find that I can regain speed quicker when coming over the top or going nose low, because I am not flying against the slow reaction of the trim to catch up to the current speed, etc....
-I find that I do not experience that Nose popping UP each time I have to lower a notch of flaps
as for thinking you have to keep fast and fly and maneuver at a certian speed range...... I always recommend flying whatever aircraft you are in, in the parameters of the planes combat performance/flight envelope ( best sustained turn speed to best corner speed ) when in a dogfight.....to stretch that a little bit more I would extend those endpoints to Stall Speed point to Compression Point......once you have advanced and learned a bit more about the F4U.....
there are tons of stuff to learn about each and every plane....... and regardless of your favorite ride, you must also start learning the Good & Bad attributes of the planes you are going to be coming up against...... so you can learn to access the situation and know what your F4U ( or favorite ride ) is good at or weak at and viceversa against the plane type you are fxing to engage....
this is going to be one of the key things that hooks your interest in wanting to become the best you possibly can in dogfighting these cartoon WWII Fiter Planes...... do not rush it, do not overload your brain .take it easy and learn things a little bit at a time......
some of us have been doing this for 10/15/20 years......and we still learn everyday...... learning and practicing all the while having fun playing is what keeps us coming back......
just don't overload, do not try to learn it all in a day/week/month/year..... trying to do so will only cause you to burn out or become disgruntle and give up.....
look forward to hooking up with ya
TC
That is my practice, to lock the rudders when in an f4u1a or any f4U for that matter. It can be done at any speed, can prevent augers and keeps you behind the enemy. Further release is instant unlike lowering and raising the gear. Lowering the gear signals to me I can out loop you or at least pull up faster. (Oh, be careful not to pull up under a hammer) Then again I can exit the fight cleanly as well should I have the overwhelming E caused by the opponent lowering his gear.
One thing positive about lowering the gear is that if your opponent is in a long nosed craft, like the f4u's, you instantly dip out of site and line of fire. So then the target has the element of an unseen ACM. These can be compensated for but you will have to move off target for a second. Anticipation is so key.
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as for the trimming to 325/340 mph range........ I find it helps in everyway ....
Does pressing (X auto-level) once you arrive at the desired speed trim the same as doing it with the manual trim keys?
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Does pressing (X auto-level) once you arrive at the desired speed trim the same as doing it with the manual trim keys?
Pressing auto level takes you to combat trim.
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Does pressing (X auto-level) once you arrive at the desired speed trim the same as doing it with the manual trim keys?
That's correct. If you don't have trim mapped to an analog control the auto level is a quick way to set your trim to level flight at your current speed. You can use auto angle to set your trim with the nose trimmed up or down to your current pitch angle. If you have combat trim set to on in preferences then you will revert to combat trim when you turn off auto trim by hitting X again or by moving a controller.
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So combat trim off - hit auto level at 275 IAS, wait a few seconds, move the stick and toggle off combat trim. Then you'll be trimmed for level flight at roundabout 275. Is that correct?
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That's correct. If you don't have trim mapped to an analog control the auto level is a quick way to set your trim to level flight at your current speed. You can use auto angle to set your trim with the nose trimmed up or down to your current pitch angle. If you have combat trim set to on in preferences then you will revert to combat trim when you turn off auto trim by hitting X again or by moving a controller.
Thanks FLS, I use a twisty stick and keyboard so not many buttons to map on the stick, I need to pick and choose carefully.
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Does pressing (X auto-level) once you arrive at the desired speed trim the same as doing it with the manual trim keys?
-using X for auto pilot / Auto Level will trim your plane for that speed at which you are flying....
-using combat Trim and flying straight will Trim your plane for the current speed you are flying ( do not have any flaps out )
-using Shift X ( auto angle? I think it is with out looking ) if you are level or in a nose low atitude will trim your plane for the speed you are at
all will trim your plane just the same as if you were manually trimming it , by trimming the elevators, ailerons and rudders seperately......
some people have manually trimmed for so long it is second nature to them..... I started out using manual trim adjustments, but switched off to using the Combat Trim mapped to my FighterStick , so I can toggle it on and off any time I desire......
When I take off to go on a sortie, I will normally engage Combat Trim and fly with it on until I am about to get into an area I might get in to a fight.... at this time I will nose down slightly to get my desired speed.. once I reach 325 to 340 MPH IAS, I will toggle CT(Combat Trim) off.......
when I am setting my Speed / Trim where I want it to be, I make absolutely positive that I do not have any stick input or rudder input going on, nor any notches of flaps deployed....
I also make sure I do not have WEP engaged... the extra Torque that you get from using WEP will trow off your trim also.......
I want my plane to be in a clean straight line of flight with none of the control surfaces being moved....... This assures me that my Plane is trimmed where I need it.... and it does not take very long to get my plane trimmed , by doing it this way..... Please note if you have any bit of stick or rudder input going on when setting the trim, it is going to be out of whack / will throw you off
Now, trimming manually or trimming to a set Trimmed out speed may not be for everyone...... it all is personal preference.... some people who have been here a very long time and are very very good use Combat Trim all the time ... and on the other hand their are people who use Manual Trim and are just as good as those who use CT...
I do not advocate "Constant Trimming"..... I find it much better to Trim my plane to it's level cruise speed or close to it's level cruise speed and leave it there and not mess with it anymore...... going to the fight area or RTBing to base, I do not worry about it. I will use all the auto climb, auto angle, auto pilot, Combat Trim etc...... but if I feel I am fixing to get in a fight.. I quickly trim back to that prefered Trimmed Speed
one could say that I trim to a nuetural type trim setting....
I look at it like this.... back when WWII was going on, they did not have Combat Trim, or Auto Angle, Auto Speed etc..... a Fighter Pilot trimmed his aircraft for level cruise flight speed while patrolling, and once he got into a fight the last thing on his mind was turning "trim wheels" to trim his plane..... he might of made 1 or 2 small adjustments if any but he did not constantly Trim his aircraft during a dogfight like Aces High's "Combat Trim" feature does.....
as for my selected Trim speed... I know that most of my flying/fighting is going to be below the Trim speed, so when I am doing say 250 or 200 IAS and I want to bring guns to bare on my opponent... I can gently/steadly pull the gun sight on to my opponent..... I do not have to push/pull/push/pull to steady the bore sight because I am not in Combat Trim and I am not having to fight the Combat Trim..... ( throw flaps into that equation while using Combat Trim and it just gets worse......... Combat Trim is for level or straight flight speeds, it is not taking in to account any notches of flaps being used )
sorry for being so long winded
hope this helps
<S>
TC
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So combat trim off - hit auto level at 275 IAS, wait a few seconds, move the stick and toggle off combat trim. Then you'll be trimmed for level flight at roundabout 275. Is that correct?
If you have combat trim on by default it may change the trim settings slightly before you toggle it off. I'm not certain because I've never had it on by default. If you have combat trim off by default and toggle it on when you need it then it will certainly work as you described.
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If you have combat trim on by default it may change the trim settings slightly before you toggle it off. I'm not certain because I've never had it on by default. If you have combat trim off by default and toggle it on when you need it then it will certainly work as you described.
Thanks FLS, appreciate it.
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This thread is turning into one of those rare "nuggets of gold" types. Thanks everyone for their inputs. I am going to start experimenting with trimming options and see what happens. :salute
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This thread is turning into one of those rare "nuggets of gold" types. Thanks everyone for their inputs. I am going to start experimenting with trimming options and see what happens. :salute
I'll give you another tip for analog trim. Analog trim, which is trim mapped to an axis control, is over-ridden by auto trim and combat trim. When you turn auto trim or combat trim off you will get whatever trim you previously set manually.
Your most efficient acceleration in any aircraft is at 0 G when you don't have any induced drag from lift. If you set manual elevator trim to give you 0 G at your best sustained turn speed, then you can dive out of your best sustained turn at 0 G just by centering the stick without having to look at the gauge. As your speed builds you might pitch down a little to maintain 0 G but usually you won't dive for very long. When you get to your max level speed you'll find that the same trim position that gave you a 0 G dive now gives you close to level trim. Just be careful when you're slow and close to the ground because you can auger very quickly by easing your pull.
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So, FLS, if I trimmed my nose up a bit and go to combat trim and then turn combat trim off again it's back to the manual trim?
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So, FLS, if I trimmed my nose up a bit and go to combat trim and then turn combat trim off again it's back to the manual trim?
Only if you have trim wheels mapped to your joystick/throttle, IIRC.
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So, FLS, if I trimmed my nose up a bit and go to combat trim and then turn combat trim off again it's back to the manual trim?
Only if you have trim mapped to an axis as EskimoJoe said. If you use keyboard keys for trim the trim will stay at the last position that combat trim or one of the auto trim modes put it in.
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Is rudder trim really important? I use a x-45 and it got only 2 wheels. Also, should I invest on rudder pedal?
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Is rudder trim really important? I use a x-45 and it got only 2 wheels. Also, should I invest on rudder pedal?
Not really, only elevator
Yes get peddles I love mine
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Is rudder trim really important? I use a x-45 and it got only 2 wheels. Also, should I invest on rudder pedal?
I played the game for the first few months without rudder pedals, and once I got a set, it totally changed what I could do with the plane in-game. I'd highly recommend them. Not mandatory to enjoy the game, but highly recommended.
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Is rudder trim really important? I use a x-45 and it got only 2 wheels. Also, should I invest on rudder pedal?
Rudder position determines if your aircraft is pointed in the direction you're traveling. This affects drag and gunnery. You can set rudder position with trim or your controller, just center the ball in the gauge that looks like a level, or center it with auto trim or combat trim.
With only 2 axis I would assign elevator trim to one and let auto trim set the rudder and aileron trim. I would use the second axis for RPM or zoom but it's a personal preference.
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Only if you have trim mapped to an axis as EskimoJoe said. If you use keyboard keys for trim the trim will stay at the last position that combat trim or one of the auto trim modes put it in.
I need to do some testing because I'm still confused. So if I trim with my keys, or in my case my stick buttons, and hit combat trim on it goes back to the original settings until I trim again?
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I need to do some testing because I'm still confused. So if I trim with my keys, or in my case my stick buttons, and hit combat trim on it goes back to the original settings until I trim again?
No. Combat trim and auto trim both set your trim as if you had set it with the keyboard. Trim would only revert to a previous setting if you had trim mapped to an analog axis like a rotary control or a lever.
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I need to do some testing because I'm still confused. So if I trim with my keys, or in my case my stick buttons, and hit combat trim on it goes back to the original settings until I trim again?
If you turn CT on, it'll trim you out. When you shut it off, your trims will stay were CT left them (even if that isn't the best place for them to be). If you manual trim with buttons or keys, you'll "lose" your trim settings when you turn CT on (or auto-level, auto-angle, or auto-speed/climb).
When you turn CT off again, you'll need to readjust your trims. You can do that by memorizing where you prefer to have the trim indicators, or you can fly at your desired speed and adjust them for straight/level. As your speed changes, your trim will change.
As TC mentioned, I wouldn't worry about that while in a fight.
If, however, you have your trims mapped to rotary dials or sliders, you can "pre-set" your trims, and they'll return to those settings anytime CT is disabled. On my X52, I actually set the trims for straight/level at my desired speed, and then take a Sharpie marker and mark the side of my dials so if I bump them I can return them to my desired setting while still using CT (or, I can visually verify that they're set right at any given time).
IMO, the rotary dial option is best, but the downside is that you need to calibrate your dials anytime you calibrate your sick in AH. If you forget, they won't work right until you re-calibrate them.
Having trim mapped to rotary dials is nice, because it allows me to put my plane into a "familiar" trim-state, where I know how everything "feels" and responds. The key for me was to have CT off by default, and turn it on when I want it. Having it on by default and shutting it off when I didn't want it didn't work nearly as well. If I bump the toggle or get confused for a moment, I don't want CT taking over...
CT is a great tool for the game, and makes flying much more enjoyable. However, it really only works properly for "basic" flight, clean, at medium speeds, and full throttle. When speed gets high or low, or gear or flaps come out, or you're "roping", etc, manual trim works better and gives you an edge (once you get proficient at it) IMO.
CT won't throw you into the ground, but it will "fight" you at times. For example, try landing with CT, and then landing without CT. With it on, you'll need aileron and elevator input to overpower the CT trim settings. You'll be approaching the runway with the stick in the corner...
With CT off, and trimmed manually, you can approach with your hand off the stick... The plane almost lands itself! There's a big difference when you're trying to RTB while missing big parts of your plane too... You'll trim to allow you to fly home, and then need to re-trim when you drop flaps and gear.
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I played the game for the first few months without rudder pedals, and once I got a set, it totally changed what I could do with the plane in-game. I'd highly recommend them. Not mandatory to enjoy the game, but highly recommended.
Especially, as I already said, for the F4U. I use rudder extensively for everything I fly, but nothing benefits more than the Corsair. Watching that big nose heel over with a hard kick to the inside rudder while rolling over the top of a breaking bandit and dropping into the saddle on him is a thing of pure beauty.
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If you turn CT on, it'll trim you out. When you shut it off, your trims will stay were CT left them (even if that isn't the best place for them to be). If you manual trim with buttons or keys, you'll "lose" your trim settings when you turn CT on (or auto-level, auto-angle, or auto-speed/climb).
When you turn CT off again, you'll need to readjust your trims. You can do that by memorizing where you prefer to have the trim indicators, or you can fly at your desired speed and adjust them for straight/level. As your speed changes, your trim will change.
As TC mentioned, I wouldn't worry about that while in a fight.
If, however, you have your trims mapped to rotary dials or sliders, you can "pre-set" your trims, and they'll return to those settings anytime CT is disabled. On my X52, I actually set the trims for straight/level at my desired speed, and then take a Sharpie marker and mark the side of my dials so if I bump them I can return them to my desired setting while still using CT (or, I can visually verify that they're set right at any given time).
IMO, the rotary dial option is best, but the downside is that you need to calibrate your dials anytime you calibrate your sick in AH. If you forget, they won't work right until you re-calibrate them.
Having trim mapped to rotary dials is nice, because it allows me to put my plane into a "familiar" trim-state, where I know how everything "feels" and responds. The key for me was to have CT off by default, and turn it on when I want it. Having it on by default and shutting it off when I didn't want it didn't work nearly as well. If I bump the toggle or get confused for a moment, I don't want CT taking over...
CT is a great tool for the game, and makes flying much more enjoyable. However, it really only works properly for "basic" flight, clean, at medium speeds, and full throttle. When speed gets high or low, or gear or flaps come out, or you're "roping", etc, manual trim works better and gives you an edge (once you get proficient at it) IMO.
CT won't throw you into the ground, but it will "fight" you at times. For example, try landing with CT, and then landing without CT. With it on, you'll need aileron and elevator input to overpower the CT trim settings. You'll be approaching the runway with the stick in the corner...
With CT off, and trimmed manually, you can approach with your hand off the stick... The plane almost lands itself! There's a big difference when you're trying to RTB while missing big parts of your plane too... You'll trim to allow you to fly home, and then need to re-trim when you drop flaps and gear.
That's true on trimming a damaged plane. I think there's some things I yet need to learn and I thought I was doing so well. :lol at myself!
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I use manual trim on all axles, always, and recommend it.
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I use manual trim on all axles, always, and recommend it.
I leave the roll alone. I do trim the pitch and have been experimenting with the rudders. No conclusive results yet.
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Trimming elevator all the way up (IE:Elevators making you go 'up') will help
you return to level flight (or avoid the ground) during compression in a dive,
provided you have enough altitutde.
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I leave the roll alone. I do trim the pitch and have been experimenting with the rudders. No conclusive results yet.
You'll probably get a lot more bang for your buck if you drop the rudder trim, and trim for aileron instead. I do all three, but 99% of the time rudder is "close enough" so I don't monkey with it. If you ignore aileron and trim for rudder instead, you're probably not trimming very cleanly, and are trimming for a straight/level "skid" which is burning E.
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Trimming elevator all the way up (IE:Elevators making you go 'up') will help
you return to level flight (or avoid the ground) during compression in a dive,
provided you have enough altitutde.
This is kind of true, but not for the reasons most believe.
In a high-speed dive, the CT is actually going to trim your elevators full down. The problem when you try to pull out is that even when you fully deflect the stick, you're still fighting all that down trim, so you're not getting full up deflection. It's a perfect example of a situation where CT is fighting you, and where you'd be better off with manual trim...
As soon as you start feeding in up trim, you'll start pulling out of your dive. But you'll be out of your dive before you even reach "neutral" trim, let alone "full up" trim (for the most part). Going to full-up trim would be equally as bad in most situations as full-down, even though it kept you alive momentarily. In this example, once you've pulled out of your dive you'll probably want to zoom climb or extend, and you'll need to fight that full-up trim to do so...
The point of manually trimming is to minimize the amount of fighting the plane you need to do, so you can put that effort into fighting your opponents.