Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Donpost on April 20, 2011, 07:56:49 AM
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Like a lot of new players, I am getting shot down regularly. I fly the P38L, and would like to stick to it rather than chasing the "win button" plane, if such a thing exists. Anyway I have a couple of questions:
1) What's the best way to improve your dogfighting skills? Practicing in the arena is the obvious choice, but flying for 15 mins just to get shot down as soon as you reach the flight is a very time consuming and frustrating way of going about it, especially since you get no feedback of what you did wrong.
2) Often I will be in the situation where the other aircraft has an alt advantage over me. Usually we will be heading towards each other, just the other guy is 2k above me or thereabouts. 99% of the time, the enemy plane with fly over me, then pull a split S to come down on my tail. Now basically there are 3 moves I might try in this situation: a) split S, b) immelman, or c) flat turn. However, no matter which move I pull, the enemy always ends up on my tail and I end up dead. Are there any tips for this situation? I am considering just running from any higher alt enemy fighters in future.
Er, that's it for now I guess. But any tips for improving would be gratefully received. :salute
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You might want an aircraft with better turn performance while you are learning the basics.
You'll get more dogfighting practice in the duelling arena or training arena if you can find somebody there to fight 1v1.
Read up on ACM to understand the theory of dogfighting.
Film your fights to help you analyze what you did that helped you and what didn't work.
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Like a lot of new players, I am getting shot down regularly. I fly the P38L, and would like to stick to it rather than chasing the "win button" plane, if such a thing exists. Anyway I have a couple of questions:
1) What's the best way to improve your dogfighting skills? Practicing in the arena is the obvious choice, but flying for 15 mins just to get shot down as soon as you reach the flight is a very time consuming and frustrating way of going about it, especially since you get no feedback of what you did wrong.
2) Often I will be in the situation where the other aircraft has an alt advantage over me. Usually we will be heading towards each other, just the other guy is 2k above me or thereabouts. 99% of the time, the enemy plane with fly over me, then pull a split S to come down on my tail. Now basically there are 3 moves I might try in this situation: a) split S, b) immelman, or c) flat turn. However, no matter which move I pull, the enemy always ends up on my tail and I end up dead. Are there any tips for this situation? I am considering just running from any higher alt enemy fighters in future.
Check this thread, and others like it: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,307387.0.html
Go into the training arena, find a trainer to work with.
As for your #2, you're timing and possibly your energy are probably a bit off. If the enemy is already above you, and climbs on the merge, you aren't likely to match his climb Do something else - turn, dive - while you keep him in sight and work him down. If instead you approach each other approximately co-alt, put your plane in a slight dive, pass under him and pull up promptly after.
Anyway, good to see someone trying to improve his skills, if you can't find a trainer stop into AvA some night, people there are happy to work with you. FLS makes a good point: the P-38, along with the Corsair, the 109s and a few others, are difficult planes for experienced people to fly well. You might want to pick some other ride while you're learning.
- oldman
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So then, if I may ask, what are some of the recommended starting aircraft for dog fighting?
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So then, if I may ask, what are some of the recommended starting aircraft for dog fighting?
Spitfires are always good planes to start with. They are easy to handle, allowing you to concentrate on learning combat & ACM basics without learning the various quirks & vices of your ride first. For the LW arena, I'd suggest Spit IX, VIII or XVI. They all have moderate top speed, but good to very good acceleration and climb rate, good maneuverability and views and adequate firepower.
Spit I and V have too much limitations for a new player, XIV is a perk plane anyway.
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Spitfires are always good planes to start with. They are easy to handle, allowing you to concentrate on learning combat & ACM basics without learning the various quirks & vices of your ride first. For the LW arena, I'd suggest Spit IX, VIII or XVI. They all have moderate top speed, but good to very good acceleration and climb rate, good maneuverability and views and adequate firepower.
Spit I and V have too much limitations for a new player, XIV is a perk plane anyway.
These Spits are the traditional beginner planes. Also easy to fly while you work on tactics: A6M5, Brewster, Hurri IIC, FM2 (all slow, but don't worry about that just now). N1K2J, La7 are a bit faster and still easy to fly.
- oldman
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Don,
One of the best thing you can do is what we were doing on Monday,flying around chasing each other and trying to get an advantage.
Your correct in the fact of flying in the Main arenas,while fun,is a slow way to learn and improve.Seat time,reading and Dueling will be the best way to improve. Read Oldman's suggestion of planes to use and pick 1 you like and use it until you have a good understanding of flight combat,then if you wish you can switch over to the 38. That would be a good time to setup some time with 1 of the trainers who flies the 38 regularly,Delirium and Soulyss both come to mind.
Above all have fun,you'll improve with time!
:salute
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You might be interested in this : http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/inpursuit.pdf.
It's a write-up on ACM and general online air combat by Johan Kylander I found on my squad BBS. It's a little long but it made for a very interesting read. I found it a very complete guide and helped me figure out my options. At least on paper....
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Happy to spend some time in the TA with you, if you're interested shoot me a PM here and we can set aside some time.
Far be it from me to tell someone what to fly, ultimately you gotta fly whatever you find interesting and fun. However the 38 isn't the most beginner friendly plane in the stable from a combat point of view (ironically because of zero net torque it's also one of the easiest to pick up and fly). It can do a lot of things well but many of the more common planes that you will run into in the MA will be able to rely on one or two things and will be able to do it better than the 38. What this means is you have to change tactics a lot and the one area where the 38 truly stands out can be hard for a newer player to exploit, ie it's phenomenal low speed handling, stability, vertical performance, and nose control.
I think some of the other planes mentioned above are better beginner planes, the Spits (VIII, IX, XVI), N1K, the Lavochkin family (LA-5, LA-7). The P-51's and 190 series (particularly the 190D) can also be a decent choice from a survivability stand point but will require very conservative tactics at first. Their high speed helps keeps you out of trouble but leave new players with few choices once that speed bleeds off.
However if you want to give the 38 a go I'm happy to try and help out in any way I can. :)
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Hey Donpost :salute Im glad you found your way to the BBS, there's a LOT of great information barried in here, enough to fill a great book. There are also a lot of confusing and sometimes contradicting (seemingly, but that toonwill make sense later in your pilot career) information, however if you take the time to read some air combat books and flight theory you will eventually develop the key in understanding the different arguments posted here.
1) For getting the most battle experience, check out the Dualing Arena. You will die a lot, but you can learn a LOT too! But keep reading on things like energy management and try and always wing up with someone, the furball lake in the DA can also produce bad flying habbits. As long as you learn to develop your SA and learn to time your moves, you will improve.
2)use the split S as a ditching effort to get away. It can sometimes help you, but it usually will not help you out in an angles or energy fight. What will help you most is to learn high and low Yo-Yo like moves or Siccors for ACM. The name of the game is to get the pilot who has more Energy (alt {seperation} and speed, to keep it sympol for now) to burn his energy up while you conserve and store as much as you can. Learning WHEN to pull a flat turn or any other ACM is what makes all this work. That takes time, studying, and practice
Dont get too frustrated and NEVER fly when you are angry or in a bad mind set. Air combat IS a form of martial arts and psychology plays a big roll. You want to take advantage of the enemies mind state and learn to defend against him trying to do the same with yours
If you see me, Owlblink, on in the DA, give me a shout out ( .p Owlblink). Im far from the best pilot, but its good to know people.
:airplane:
PS a lot of pilots tend to have big egos, dont take it personal if you ever offend someone in game and they call you out, that is also part of the psychological game. be humble and avoid the Trolls :old:
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Wow, lots of useful replies - good stuff :aok
Morfiend - After our meeting in the TA the other day I did as you suggested and spent some time setting up my joystick. It has helped a lot; now I just need to practice.
I'm the kind of person who likes a bit of structure and planning, so this is what I think I'm gonna do:
1) Switch to the SPIT! I'm British so I should really be flying that anyway :rock
2) Practice gunnery on the offline drones. Is there any way to make the drones behave a bit more erratically? It's one thing to shoot a plane flying in a lazy circle around an airfield, another thing entirely to shoot something that is trying to maneouvore out of your way!
3) Practice the common ACMs in and empty arena so I can pull them off effectively and learn the effect on alitude, direction, and airspeed.
4) Review recordings of my dogfights. I heard you can also view them from the POV of the enemy, is that true? If so it'd be really handy in seeing where I went wrong.
5) Get with a trainer! Although really I feel like I should get some basic skills that can be obtained through practice obtained first. Wax on, wax off type stuff :D I am based in the UK, are there many trainers from this timezone? What's the best way to organise some scheduled (one-to-one?) training?
Thanks,
donpost
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When you practice with the drones don't just tail chase, attack them from every angle. Fly formation with a drone and see how close you can hold your position. Practice your basic fighter maneuvers with a runway as your reference point then do them with a drone as your reference point. Fly continuous barrel rolls around a drone while keeping it in sight. Be creative. Drones are useful tools.
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Just had a blast at some targets offline and I've found out two things:
a) It's best to mount your stick on something rather than just hold it in you lap like I was doing.
b) Turning the tracers off helps me :huh
I was actually trying to come at the drones from side on as well as behind, but my aim is still not good enough for that. And I STILL lose the enemy plane below my nose when shooting. I have my hat-forward bound to a view that looks over the left-top of the engine which is handy for following the enemy aircraft but not much help when shooting at it.
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Just had a blast at some targets offline and I've found out two things:
a) It's best to mount your stick on something rather than just hold it in you lap like I was doing.
b) Turning the tracers off helps me :huh
I was actually trying to come at the drones from side on as well as behind, but my aim is still not good enough for that. And I STILL lose the enemy plane below my nose when shooting. I have my hat-forward bound to a view that looks over the left-top of the engine which is handy for following the enemy aircraft but not much help when shooting at it.
It's not uncommon for hit % to go up a bit with tracers off. With the tracers on you tend to just watch the tracers and try to walk them into the target, with tracers off you pay more attention to the gunsight itself and where the pipper is in relation to target. Sometimes there's a slump when you first turn them off but once you start to require the sight picture it's not uncommon to see a little bump in accuracy.
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Donpost,
Get some basic knowledge from the trainers then go to the DA and ask people to duel you. In the duels, you will probably loose but don't worry, every time you loose you learn and try and execute some of the moves the trainers taught you.
Its really all about repetition, the more you practice the better you get, and don't get frustrated if it seems like your not getting better, you are. Also, remember, many people have been playing the game for years so give it at least a year to get up to par.
If you choose to go to the dueling arena, don't go to the lake, you will not get much out of it.
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Wow, lots of useful replies - good stuff :aok
I'll offer you a couple of things. Understand my position. I've been playing for about 2 years as time permits. Many on the bbs are far more experienced, many are more talented. Some of these guys are monsters of the game (Soulyss killed me last night).
1. There's a lot to playing well that has to do with flying in a way that may not be intuitive (you sidestep much of this in a Spit or Zero). Consider, for example, how much time you spend making a 2g turn while holding your airspeed above a certain level. Developing a "feel" for such things is difficult and, at least in my experience, takes a lot of time. Patience is required.
2. The game (and bbs sometimes) is full of what the Germans might call "arscheklownen". Thus, there will be times where you can make every mistake there is and still get the kill - and vice versa. Why? Because arscheklownen come in all varieties.
3. Leon Badboy Smith, Robert Shaw, and Oswald Boelcke are probably the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (not in that order) of ACM and tactics. I'd recommend looking at Badboy's E-M Diagram simple tutorial right away. You can find it online if you search "Badboy Aces High E-M diagram". Shaw's book is always available somewhere. I bought my copy on amazon. It's called "Fighter Combat", IIRC.
4. Somebody else has written this before but I always feel I learn a lot by flying a nemesis aircraft now and again. For example, I started with the 190d and, while I may still get killed by a good Dora stick now and again, never am I especially afraid to face one. I know what he's got, after all. I only fear a Spitty when it's something like co-E. Low and slow, it's a target, albeit one of the more dodgy ones.
5. Get some squaddies. Buds can help you learn a lot over the radio and in combat. Your newbie status will, in some ways, help them. Actually, we'd (JV44 Wurger) probably take you if you want to be a Luftwannabe.
6. Try AvA, per Oldman. The focus there is small group or even 1v1. No icon makes for better realism, too.
Just last night I had an hilarious battle in AvA 1 on 3 using a 190A-5 against 3 Spitty 5s. By using the shameful tactics of ack-hiding and a Ho, I actually got home with 2 kills and the loss of an elevator, aileron, and a bunch of wing skin, judging by the holes. Was it textbook? No way. Did I use every advantage I had. Yep - and that's fair game 1 versus 3, as I see it. That's not really in the spirit of the game, I figure, but I'll take it. That's point 7. - enjoy the ride, whatever it brings. Otherwise, you end up a squeaker.
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Don,
Check out the Offline missions Forum,I'm sure you can find a mission or 2 that will give you a target that doesnt just racetrack around a base.
Not sure what you use for a joystick but you could attach it to a piece of ply or MDF to hold it permanently then secure that to the desk without marring the finish on the desk. Checkout the hardware forum for simpits and the like as there's many clever ideas to mount a joystick.
If Mtnman would be so kind to post a pic of the mount he made that fastens to any computer chair that might help too.
Next time we meet in the TA I can suggest a few British players who may be willing to help you along in your timezone.
:salute
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If Mtnman would be so kind to post a pic of the mount he made that fastens to any computer chair that might help too.
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/Mtnman_03/DSC_2766.jpg)
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/Mtnman_03/DSC_2753.jpg)
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/Mtnman_03/DSC_5151-1.jpg)
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/Mtnman_03/DSC_5155.jpg)
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/Mtnman_03/DSC_5153.jpg)
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/Mtnman_03/DSC_5157.jpg)
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ask a vet who likes to help...many here have volunteered, the TA its better then the DA for you wont die and can just re merge :aok
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There are alot of 'vet's who would be more than willing to help you, you just have to ask. Also, depending on the ride you are interested in mastering, there are different people you can ask, ex MtnMan is godly in an f4u.
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Thx Mtnman,
I'm sure your mount will inspire afew to build something simalar!
:salute
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Just had a blast at some targets offline and I've found out two things:
a) It's best to mount your stick on something rather than just hold it in you lap like I was doing.
b) Turning the tracers off helps me :huh
I was actually trying to come at the drones from side on as well as behind, but my aim is still not good enough for that. And I STILL lose the enemy plane below my nose when shooting. I have my hat-forward bound to a view that looks over the left-top of the engine which is handy for following the enemy aircraft but not much help when shooting at it.
If you're not worried about marring your desktop you could try some 2" wide velcro.
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Mtnman. Thanx for the pics of the mount. :old: :aok
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Thx Mtnman,
I'm sure your mount will inspire a few to build something simalar!
:salute
Mtnman. Thanx for the pics of the mount. :old: :aok
No problem guys...
One of the benefits to a set-up like mine is that my arms (elbows) are supported by the chair arms. For me, this helps with keeping fine control. It also reduces fatigue.
When I played a ton way-back-when, I actually played so much that I ended up having back problems from holding my arm up/out onto my joystick which was velcroed to the top of my my desk. I also had neck problems because my monitor was too low.
I raised the monitor by building a base under it, and built this joystick/throttle apparatus. No more back/neck problems, and better control, more comfortable, etc...
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Like a lot of new players, I am getting shot down regularly. I fly the P38L, and would like to stick to it rather than chasing the "win button" plane, if such a thing exists. Anyway I have a couple of questions:
1) What's the best way to improve your dogfighting skills? Practicing in the arena is the obvious choice, but flying for 15 mins just to get shot down as soon as you reach the flight is a very time consuming and frustrating way of going about it, especially since you get no feedback of what you did wrong.
2) Often I will be in the situation where the other aircraft has an alt advantage over me. Usually we will be heading towards each other, just the other guy is 2k above me or thereabouts. 99% of the time, the enemy plane with fly over me, then pull a split S to come down on my tail. Now basically there are 3 moves I might try in this situation: a) split S, b) immelman, or c) flat turn. However, no matter which move I pull, the enemy always ends up on my tail and I end up dead. Are there any tips for this situation? I am considering just running from any higher alt enemy fighters in future.
Er, that's it for now I guess. But any tips for improving would be gratefully received. :salute
Start by learning Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM). Find one of the many great sticks in here that will teach you the basics and then practice, practice, practice. Once you get the basics down and your muscle memory kicks in, you'll start turning the table on those guys that were at your six all the time. Keep it simple for a while... The KISS principle. If you try to learn this in the horde attacks in the MAs, you'll become the designated grape. ....and one more thing. Always check six and under your belly. Always be prepared for someone to be lurking around those two places. :salute
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Another thing that you may find helpful; find someone to ride along with, send a join request, and watch how others do it. This may help the learning curve also. Happy hunting and.....
Check Six! :salute
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I'll add that THE hardest thing to learn for me is not to bite more than I can chew. I always get eager and realize too late that i'm in big doo doo. And also take EVERY shot you can. I was wasting shot opportunity because i was always looking for the perfect shot. Dont. Most plane have enough ammo to allow for liberal spraying of the sky, so dont hesitate to squeeze that trigger. and a final trick
what i do, is to fly past em, and then throw big aluminum parts at em. if that doesn't work, i throw a spikey heel at em..... :noid
so always keep a spikey heel handy. :devil
Seeya in the sky gentleman
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Maybe its because I spend most of my time in bombers. Maybe its because I have an 8 year old Saitek ST290 Pro (twisty rudder). Maybe its because my view angles are not set correctly. Maybe its because I have wireless Satelite.
For whatever the reason, I have a hard time flying fighters both offensively and defensively. I've been playing this game for 3 years. I get my breaks here and there, but overall I have some of the worst luck in this game.
1.) I get put into the tower before I even here the first bullet hit me. Half of my deaths are instant tower or fatal damage.
2.) It doesn't matter what I'm in or at what altitude, the other guy is always both faster and more maneuverable.
3.) Currently, my forward view is only set to look directly down the gunsight. If I ever get into a turn fight, I can never see what my bullets are doing because when I pull lead the engine block/instrument panel covers the target. This never seems to be a problem for other guys, who seem to pull impossible angles where your sure they don't have a solution on you, then - BOOM, DEAD.
4.) Energy is a mystery to me, its almost illogical. I've benzed guys who were TnB'n going over 500 miles an hour, pulled straight up in the vertical, and got shot down by the guy who was low and slow (I stalled first!). Reverse that situation, I've had guys benze me closing at a rate of 1k per second, then all of the sudden pull in with me like my shadow at d400 with every juke I pull.
5.) I fire a lot of rubber bullets. At times I've hit guys with enough >.50 cals to think to myself, "that would have been enough to kill me 5 times over". Most of the time I'll give them a fuel leak, I can never put anyone away.
Before you guys say "review the films", Ive already done that. Its the same old crap. With internet lag on my end, I have no idea how many bullets my opponent had to fire or at what angle he had to truly be at to kill me. Most of the time in film viewer it shows me dying from 1 ping by an opponent nose on with an imaginary point 20 yards behind me. Rant over, I'm tired and frustrated.
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Maybe its because I spend most of my time in bombers. Maybe its because I have an 8 year old Saitek ST290 Pro (twisty rudder). Maybe its because my view angles are not set correctly. Maybe its because I have wireless Satelite.
For whatever the reason, I have a hard time flying fighters both offensively and defensively. I've been playing this game for 3 years. I get my breaks here and there, but overall I have some of the worst luck in this game.
1.) I get put into the tower before I even here the first bullet hit me. Half of my deaths are instant tower or fatal damage.
2.) It doesn't matter what I'm in or at what altitude, the other guy is always both faster and more maneuverable.
3.) Currently, my forward view is only set to look directly down the gunsight. If I ever get into a turn fight, I can never see what my bullets are doing because when I pull lead the engine block/instrument panel covers the target. This never seems to be a problem for other guys, who seem to pull impossible angles where your sure they don't have a solution on you, then - BOOM, DEAD.
4.) Energy is a mystery to me, its almost illogical. I've benzed guys who were TnB'n going over 500 miles an hour, pulled straight up in the vertical, and got shot down by the guy who was low and slow (I stalled first!). Reverse that situation, I've had guys benze me closing at a rate of 1k per second, then all of the sudden pull in with me like my shadow at d400 with every juke I pull.
5.) I fire a lot of rubber bullets. At times I've hit guys with enough >.50 cals to think to myself, "that would have been enough to kill me 5 times over". Most of the time I'll give them a fuel leak, I can never put anyone away.
Before you guys say "review the films", Ive already done that. Its the same old crap. With internet lag on my end, I have no idea how many bullets my opponent had to fire or at what angle he had to truly be at to kill me. Most of the time in film viewer it shows me dying from 1 ping by an opponent nose on with an imaginary point 20 yards behind me. Rant over, I'm tired and frustrated.
A LOT of this is going to be solvable with a little time with a trainer. I have the same twisty stick I used while I was on the road and while not as good as my beloved CH Fighterstick it was a decent stick.
Having your views set is very important. Default views are OK, but adjusting for a better view helps. Go to the trainers page and get Murdrs views he has posted there. Most of the planes are there (vile is old so the newer planes are not on it) but seeing how the other are set you'll be able to set the new planes.
Firering with that big old engine block in the way is even easier to fix. You are flying in 2d. Like I use to do up was up and down was down and the canopy points up and the gear points down. Get that out of your head ! If there was no land to "tell" you whats up or down you wouldn't know. What you have to concentrate on is pulling your nose out in front of your target....even if they are under your nose, then roll so that your wings are level with THEIR flight path...so they fly from your wing tip to wing tip. Now you have all those windows to track them with and time your shot.
Spraying bullets from one wing tip to the other isn't going to knock a plane out of the sky...well ok it will take the wing off a spit :P The trick is to move your plane in the same direction as your target to get your bullets to hit the same spot. In the above set-up with a plane running from your wing tip to wing tip if you just fire off a burst you'll get hits in a line along his plane, if you kick your rudder as you shoot your guns follow his path and you land your hit more in one spot.
The rest is SA (with good views) and timing which takes practice.
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Maybe its because I spend most of my time in bombers. Maybe its because I have an 8 year old Saitek ST290 Pro (twisty rudder). Maybe its because my view angles are not set correctly. Maybe its because I have wireless Satelite.
For whatever the reason, I have a hard time flying fighters both offensively and defensively. I've been playing this game for 3 years. I get my breaks here and there, but overall I have some of the worst luck in this game.
1.) I get put into the tower before I even here the first bullet hit me. Half of my deaths are instant tower or fatal damage.
2.) It doesn't matter what I'm in or at what altitude, the other guy is always both faster and more maneuverable.
3.) Currently, my forward view is only set to look directly down the gunsight. If I ever get into a turn fight, I can never see what my bullets are doing because when I pull lead the engine block/instrument panel covers the target. This never seems to be a problem for other guys, who seem to pull impossible angles where your sure they don't have a solution on you, then - BOOM, DEAD.
4.) Energy is a mystery to me, its almost illogical. I've benzed guys who were TnB'n going over 500 miles an hour, pulled straight up in the vertical, and got shot down by the guy who was low and slow (I stalled first!). Reverse that situation, I've had guys benze me closing at a rate of 1k per second, then all of the sudden pull in with me like my shadow at d400 with every juke I pull.
5.) I fire a lot of rubber bullets. At times I've hit guys with enough >.50 cals to think to myself, "that would have been enough to kill me 5 times over". Most of the time I'll give them a fuel leak, I can never put anyone away.
Before you guys say "review the films", Ive already done that. Its the same old crap. With internet lag on my end, I have no idea how many bullets my opponent had to fire or at what angle he had to truly be at to kill me. Most of the time in film viewer it shows me dying from 1 ping by an opponent nose on with an imaginary point 20 yards behind me. Rant over, I'm tired and frustrated.
Luck doesn't sound like the issue. Like Fugitive suggested, spend some time with a trainer/someone who knows the basics, i.e., BFM and get it down solid.
If energy is a mystery, you may benefit from reading up on the "energy egg" concept. Google it along with BFM and ACM. Any author who is worth his salt will include the "egg" in his discussion. Energy management is an essential part of air to air combat. Once you understand the basic concept and practice it, you'll see a big difference in your level of success. BFM and energy management will get you to a guns tracking solution.
Then, it's a matter of perfecting your aim and laying it to your opponent. And remember....
Check Six! :salute
......the guy you are lining up on has a wingman who is converting to your six. :O
Oh, and another thing; there isn't much in the way of BFM required to fly bombers. If your desire is to get better in air to air combat, ya gotta practice a lot. ...and most of all, have fun with it! :aok
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Only thing I can add besides encouraging you to get some instruction time with Soulyss is to read as much as you can. Follow the links on the trainer's sites and study up on the plane evaluations in the AH wiki. If a particular plane is giving you grief check its performance ratings against your ride (Doku has a good if somewhat dated comparison program, again available through links on the trainers site) and see what the advantages and disadvantages are. Sadly, with the 38L you'll find a couple of birds that will pretty much outclass you in everything, but good piloting skill will make up for that. (and I've got enough 38-produced holes in my cockpit to verify that.)
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Here's a link for some excellent BFM and ACM "How To" instruction.
https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder5/T45/P-1230.PDF
Even though written for modern day jets, the principles still apply to our WWII rides. Early in the document, there is a good description with graphics of the "energy egg". Enjoy! :aok
Check six! :salute
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Here's an even better reference, courtesy of Jappa52: http://sci-ops.net/data/Air-to-Air%20Reference%20Text.pdf
:salute
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Hi all :salute
Just dropping in to say I'm still in the game :aok Thanks for all your posts - I have read a lot of the texts you've put up and they are really helpful.
However, I think I'm going to need some 1 on 1 tuition on actually putting the theory into practice because online the fights are far between and the MA doesn't tell you what you did right or wrong. What's the best way about getting some 1 on 1 help? I drop in the training arena every now and then but there isn't always someone who is free to help.
My current tactic in the MA is, avoid a fight unless I clearly have a massive advantage :x
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However, I think I'm going to need some 1 on 1 tuition on actually putting the theory into practice because online the fights are far between and the MA doesn't tell you what you did right or wrong. What's the best way about getting some 1 on 1 help? I drop in the training arena every now and then but there isn't always someone who is free to help.
Best bet would be to send one of the trainers a PM (private message) here on the forums to set up an appointment. I've recently switched from the training staff to the CM's (event staff) but I'd be happy to set aside some time to go over a couple of the more common MA situations that you typically find yourself in.
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Thanks I appreciate that. Who are the trainers? I'm in the UK so the time difference might cause problems
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UK probably wouldn't be possible during the week, that's 8-9 hours ahead of me here (west coast, US). I don't think we have a UK based player on the training staff, but there are some people based on the east coast which would shave 3 hours or so off the difference. You can try contacting Delirium, he's on the east coast here but he's been pretty busy being a dad lately so his time may be limited.
Some of the other trainers include
Morfiend
BigRat
Silat
FLS
GhostH
Rodent57
Rolex
Tequilla Chaser
Rapier
I still have access to the trainers forum for the time being so I'll drop a post in there and see if anyone is free.
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Thanks I appreciate that. Who are the trainers? I'm in the UK so the time difference might cause problems
Hi Donpost,
I'm in the UK so we should be able to hook up.
I've sent you a PM with some times.
Badboy
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Hi Donpost,
I'm in the UK so we should be able to hook up.
I've sent you a PM with some times.
Badboy
Show's what I know. :D
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There is a lot of great stuff in this thread so I'll just add this bit.
If your train 1v1 you get very, very good at 1v1. The problem if you fly in an arena the fights are only rarely 1v1. Even if they start that way they morph. You have to be ready to morph with them.
That means if you enter a 1v1 you have to fly it with the thought of "What if another enemy enters this fight either: low? co-alt? higher?" When you do that, you start to survive the fights that morph on you because you are ready for it. There are lots of great pilots in a 1v1 that get waxed the moment a second bandit joins the fight. It's because everything has been focused on beating the one other guy and now there are two.
IMHO, a really good pilot has the SA to change with the changing situation and not only survive but win and get kills as the battle shifts.
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2) Practice gunnery on the offline drones. Is there any way to make the drones behave a bit more erratically? It's one thing to shoot a plane flying in a lazy circle around an airfield, another thing entirely to shoot something that is trying to maneouvore out of your way!
I am just your average AH user, once in a while if my aim gets even worse than usual, I fly offline to try and get it sorted with tracers on (I fly tracers off in the MA). The thing is don't just saddle up behind a drone. Whilst the tail end shot will show you how much you need to lead a slow target in a gentle turn, that will only help so far. Try attacking from the side and you will soon find that you need quite a bit of lead in anything other than straight and level. In the Main Arena I find that in a tight turn fight I have to pull the nose over the target to get enough lead to hit it. Also the aircraft generally are flying faster in the MA so you need even more lead than you will learn offline.
On the survival side of things, if you do end up with some-one saddled up on your six, remember to jink. Maybe only a little if you are getting away, more so if you are not. The game is not just about shooting some-one down although that is my main objective. Learning defense means you may avoid getting shot down. It also helps you understand how to attack the guy with a good defense!
As a UK user, I do fly Spits in the main. - You will get Jibes about being a Spit dweeb but just ignore them.
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I do not recommend you follow my advice.
I recommend you follow the proven methods stated in this thread.
However, if you would like to take a more unconventional approach then I have a few ideas.
I am serous..this is not a joke post.
Fly a crappy plane such as a ki61, spit 5 or 109f4. These are not necessarily crappy...in fact they are good...what makes them crappy is the top speed. There are other crappy planes...just pick one. A 30 eny plane is crappy enough.
Fly at 8k or less. Try to outsmart them. DO NOT follow a faster plane into a vertical stall. Break off and dive.
Take off from another base...NOT THE ONE that is under attack. Come in at 8k or less with max speed.
Pick a target and go after it.
Fly your plane to a spot that will intersect their flight path....try to ram them in essence...but fire ahead before...and don't actually ram.
DO NOT go head on with any target...roll out and stay fast.
DO NOT get trapped by a hord....egress to friendlies
Maintain your energy...stay at 5k....egress to 5k and come back.
Altitude doesn't matter...SPEED is the key in ANY PLANE.
Everything is a 4 way stop....run over the curb and crash into the other guy.....meaning fire across the yard.
Cut every angle you can....always always always cut the angle off....fly ahead and set your shot.
FIRE ALL YOUR ammo...if you died with ammo then you didn't fire enough.
Forget about landing kills.
Forget about score.
Forget about the gangtards and hotards...you WILL get ganged and hoed..planes are free. FOR GET ABOUT IT.
Don't fly good planes like the spit16, La7, p51, and others like them.
STAY IN A CRAPPY PLANE.....You wont learn jack until you can figure out how to beat a better plane in a crappy plane.
You Will die thousands of times..it is a fact...therefor you mise well get used to that fact. Expect to die on every sortie.
The point is to learn. You will not learn crap if you fly a spit16.
There is more but try this out first.
Good luck.
Agent360
----Bad bad Agent the badest pilot in the whole dam cemetery---
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Crappy does not equate to "Clown Wagon". No you will not get better if you constantly fly a zero or a spit V or a brewster. You need a plane that has a middle of the road turn rate as well as middle of the road speed.
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Crappy does not equate to "Clown Wagon". No you will not get better if you constantly fly a zero or a spit V or a brewster. You need a plane that has a middle of the road turn rate as well as middle of the road speed.
preying mantis (ardy) is wise.
crouching tiger (agent) fly with your mind. Do not use a hammer to smash a fly. Do not use a feather to crush a beer can.
Young grasshopper (Donpost)....you must learn to catch the bait before you can catch the fish.
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Badboy - Thanks for the PM, I have replied :aok
There is a lot of great stuff in this thread so I'll just add this bit.
If your train 1v1 you get very, very good at 1v1. The problem if you fly in an arena the fights are only rarely 1v1. Even if they start that way they morph. You have to be ready to morph with them.
That means if you enter a 1v1 you have to fly it with the thought of "What if another enemy enters this fight either: low? co-alt? higher?" When you do that, you start to survive the fights that morph on you because you are ready for it. There are lots of great pilots in a 1v1 that get waxed the moment a second bandit joins the fight. It's because everything has been focused on beating the one other guy and now there are two.
IMHO, a really good pilot has the SA to change with the changing situation and not only survive but win and get kills as the battle shifts.
This is so true. I have been concentrating a lot on this recently and it has helped tremedously.
The other day in the MA I came across 3 red 109s at higher alt than me. Rather than just climbing up to meet them, I turned away as soon as they appeared as specks in the sky to gain some E and await friendlies. What would be the point in me going 3v1?! Anyway, long story short, two friendlies arrived making it an even fight. I came back co-E, circling and waiting for the 109s to kill their own E and for the chance to attack whilst preventing them from getting a chance to attack me. Patient. Ended up getting a kill and damaging another into RTB without a shot even being fired in my direction.
So yeah in my limited experience, SA and patience go a long long way.
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Like a lot of new players, I am getting shot down regularly. I fly the P38L, and would like to stick to it rather than chasing the "win button" plane, if such a thing exists. Anyway I have a couple of questions:
1) What's the best way to improve your dogfighting skills? Practicing in the arena is the obvious choice, but flying for 15 mins just to get shot down as soon as you reach the flight is a very time consuming and frustrating way of going about it, especially since you get no feedback of what you did wrong.
2) Often I will be in the situation where the other aircraft has an alt advantage over me. Usually we will be heading towards each other, just the other guy is 2k above me or thereabouts. 99% of the time, the enemy plane with fly over me, then pull a split S to come down on my tail. Now basically there are 3 moves I might try in this situation: a) split S, b) immelman, or c) flat turn. However, no matter which move I pull, the enemy always ends up on my tail and I end up dead. Are there any tips for this situation? I am considering just running from any higher alt enemy fighters in future.
Er, that's it for now I guess. But any tips for improving would be gratefully received. :salute
d) Time a pull up so that he overshoots below you...an exchange of positions. Reversing an E advantage expeditiously is based on the principle of making him go nose down to the take the shot and ending up above him as many times as is nessecary for things to finally equal out.
Bandit barreling down on you:
Believe it or not, the more overtake he has on you, the easier your job is, and vis versa. The major defensive trick is to initiate a break turn at the right time, usually at least somewhat obliquely downwards. Try to get 90 degrees when he comes into firing range. If he pulls up and you don't have the speed to follow him up (you probably don't-yet), go on a path away from him. You can go straight and level, dive, or climb at high speed, depending your energy state. Try to stay at maneuvering speed. If he is tracking you for a shot, poing your wingtip at him, giving a narrow profile, and go up or down, depending on E level. The "out of plane jink" part as it is called will spoil most peoples shots, and if have the airspeed to jink with a pull up, he overshoots beneath, and you've done the reversing positions thing which will help cut down his speed overhead.
The P-38 is a pretty decent plane, and I would not discourage a new person from flying it. It seems worse than it is in a dogfight for two reasons: One, its planform makes a big target. Two, hordes of late-model Spits that do everything better and are very easy to fly. Okay, let me add a caveat: A plane with the P-38's speed, climb, turn and roll numbers would be a POS if it were single engined. However, the P-38 is NOT single engined. It has no net torque, so balls to the wall, almost no airspeed? No problem. Outstanding with the nose up, single engine jobs will run up against torque and flip over trying to pull the same maneuvers. The P-38 requires extensive flapwork to get the best out of it.
I'm going to disagree strongly with Agent here. I think turn performance is the easiest to use attribute in ACM and big stunter of a player's development in using geometry to gain the shot, rather than simply holding the stick back and listening to the stall horn until the bandit's tail is waxed. Pretty much a personal choice about how you use speed. You can use it to HO and go...or you can use it catch stuff and force fights, and disengage from the umpteen vs. you situations from which you will learn nothing except how lamely some people will strive to earn 1/10th of a kill. The P-51D would be an ideal primary trainer if its turning attributes were a little better...quite possibly it still is, because you can find other P-51s, Jugs, Typhoons, 190s, and other poor turners to fight. I may be burned at the stake for this, but I'm going to toss out the La-7...its a good but not uberturner, and it is fast enough to catch up and force a fight with just about anything. Just don't "Ho and go" in it, please. Its guns will force you to maneuver for the sort of close range, dead-easy shots that should be your bread and butter in any plane.
Oh yeah, one of your most important maneuvers in any plane is going to be chopping throttle and standing on the rudder. That is the only "air brake" most of these planes have. Remember when I said earlier that a bandit barreling down on you fast was easiest to avoid? Well, you are going to want to close to firing range expeditiously, but once you get there you want your closure rate to be reasonable so you have an easier shot. There is alot of talk about conserving your energy, and it has its place, but many times you will be far better off if you saddle up and kill that bandit NOW, before a second one comes in, instead of trying to conserve your energy while fighting the one and ending up fighting two at the same time.
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Learn B F M. All the great tips offered in this discussion are additive to knowing the basics first. :salute
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I do not recommend you follow my advice.
I recommend you follow the proven methods stated in this thread.
However, if you would like to take a more unconventional approach then I have a few ideas.
I am serous..this is not a joke post.
Fly a crappy plane such as a ki61, spit 5 or 109f4. These are not necessarily crappy...in fact they are good...what makes them crappy is the top speed. There are other crappy planes...just pick one. A 30 eny plane is crappy enough.
Fly at 8k or less. Try to outsmart them. DO NOT follow a faster plane into a vertical stall. Break off and dive.
Take off from another base...NOT THE ONE that is under attack. Come in at 8k or less with max speed.
Pick a target and go after it.
Fly your plane to a spot that will intersect their flight path....try to ram them in essence...but fire ahead before...and don't actually ram.
DO NOT go head on with any target...roll out and stay fast.
DO NOT get trapped by a hord....egress to friendlies
Maintain your energy...stay at 5k....egress to 5k and come back.
Altitude doesn't matter...SPEED is the key in ANY PLANE.
Everything is a 4 way stop....run over the curb and crash into the other guy.....meaning fire across the yard.
Cut every angle you can....always always always cut the angle off....fly ahead and set your shot.
FIRE ALL YOUR ammo...if you died with ammo then you didn't fire enough.
Forget about landing kills.
Forget about score.
Forget about the gangtards and hotards...you WILL get ganged and hoed..planes are free. FOR GET ABOUT IT.
Don't fly good planes like the spit16, La7, p51, and others like them.
STAY IN A CRAPPY PLANE.....You wont learn jack until you can figure out how to beat a better plane in a crappy plane.
You Will die thousands of times..it is a fact...therefor you mise well get used to that fact. Expect to die on every sortie.
The point is to learn. You will not learn crap if you fly a spit16.
There is more but try this out first.
Good luck.
Agent360
----Bad bad Agent the badest pilot in the whole dam cemetery---
Actually there's some good advice here so it's worth quoting. :aok
I had to read it throught 2 or 3 times... :o ya I'm abit slow... :old: but Agent speaks volumes if you take the time to actually read it.
:salute
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.... There is alot of talk about conserving your energy, and it has its place, but many times you will be far better off if you saddle up and kill that bandit NOW, before a second one comes in, instead of trying to conserve your energy while fighting the one and ending up fighting two at the same time.
not to hack your reply...but this is something that I completely disagree with and from my perspective is very wrong.....when I began I was all about "saddling" someone to get my kills, I flew like this for years, until about two years ago when I started flying with Grizz regularly, he showed me the error in my thinking, and since I changed my "tactic" I went from a hit % of 4 to all the way up to 9%(almost over night) and was easily holding a K/D of 2+ the only thing I changed was the way I attacked nme cons, instead of trying to saddle I started cutting their circles and going for crossing shots, it gives you a much larger target. also conserving E as much as possible.
my reasoning
the dead 6 shot is the hardest to make of all the shots.(<----this is uncontested..IE-Fact) its not as easy to saddle someone and kill them "now" as you make it out, while you are trying to saddle someone you will most likely be jumped by his friendlies, if instead you cut off the angles and make crossing shots, which are far easier to make, the bandit will be dead long before you could saddle him, and you will be ready to kill the next con.
if you don't kill him, you will still have the E to get above him and contend with the second con, not be low E from trying to saddle someone.
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It all depends on the situation, energy state, SA, and number of bandits to be dealt with. A snap shot or saddling up both work effectively if used properly in conjunction with BFM. Neither one is better than the other "all the time". :salute
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I share the feeling you have for flying the 38L but you going to face big challenges with this aircraft. That’s not to say you should choose something else but you will really need to work on learning BFM then ACM and use all the strategies and tactics associated to be successful. When I joined the 82nd (who flew the 38 as their primary ride) one of the first things they did was test your knowledge of basic flight maneuvers and teach or hone your skills because they knew that you needed to be proficient to be successful in the 38. I’d been learning from Puma for a while beforehand but still learned loads from those guys, they were great.
Best advice I can give would be to practice what has been said in this thread. There is a ton of wonderful information and experience here. Don’t get frustrated, get experienced. Take a few extra seconds and gain a little more altitude and choose your fights. You have basically chosen the “flying-bait” aircraft and will attract every red guy for sectors and they will give up all advantage and other, easier targets to shoot you down : )
Keep your speed as high as possible, fly it as smooth as possible and nose low, NOSE LOW!!
This is the energy egg, one of the most basic principles. Once you understand this you will have an advatage over those that dont as you will know what manuvers they are capable of doing from their current position. Then you will know where to place yourself to best counter or attack them.
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff44/jappa52/tactical_egg.jpg)
**And cheers to the community, this thread is a wealth of knowledge and shows that AH hasn’t gone FPS yet :salute