Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: MaSonZ on May 02, 2011, 03:21:18 PM
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Been lookin at the K4 for a few days...but I cant turn it fer the life of me. I cant shoot the tater, and every time i dive in there seems to be a con higher then me on my egress out. Any of you 109 Tater tossing lovers care to help?
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i can shoot, just cant turn. I guess the ground likes me or somethin
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Been lookin at the K4 for a few days...but I cant turn it fer the life of me. I cant shoot the tater, and every time i dive in there seems to be a con higher then me on my egress out. Any of you 109 Tater tossing lovers care to help?
The K4 is awesome, very awesome. Fight "nose up", this doesn't mean use the "community prefered skirt lifting scramble zoom" to stay safe, it means learn to use the verticle while applying tremendous pressure on "less verticle savy" opponents. Harsh angles with minimul verticle separation so you can take advantage of their mistakes quickly!
Most of the Muptards are quite excellent in the K4 and would gladly give you some pointers if asked. :salute
JUGgler
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Been lookin at the K4 for a few days...but I cant turn it fer the life of me. I cant shoot the tater, and every time i dive in there seems to be a con higher then me on my egress out. Any of you 109 Tater tossing lovers care to help?
:salute I was trying to do a forum search for you, but I'm getting some error with loading the "main" template. However, when it works I'll try to find you a few posts that have helped me, or if you're feeling adventurous enough, you could do the same.
Agent360 has some invaluable training videos that he gives audio commentary on what he's doing in the 109K-4 for some nice reversals. Instead of trying to always turn with something, use your opponent’s turn rates AGAINST them. If they’re attacking you, give them some angles so they think they’ve got you in their pipper when you’re really setting yourself up to gain angles on them.
Ardy321 is very good at the K-4 and can give you some great training exercises.
I've been flying the K-4, but I mostly fly in the DA so my score doesn't show up very high. It's a ruff bird to master and I'm slowly getting better at it
I recommend, for gunnery, to set your MGs out to 600 for getting a good reach, and the 30mm in close, somewhere between 200 and 300 works for most people. Why is convergence an issue? Because of the drop rate and how much arc the cannon is going to put into your projectile. You've got to aim very differently in the k-4 to hit anything, it's better to lead too much than too little with the 30mm. The big trick to turning, besides using Yo-Yo's for cutting across your opponents turn radius, is learning to work with, instead of against, your engine torque. Pulling back on the throttle when initiating a right turn helps reduce the engine torque working against you, and you can use that engine torque to aid you in rolling into a left side turn. Another thing about the K-4, as Blazzin once told me, is that it can change energy states quickly. You can drop flaps and cut throttle to slow down near stall, and time your WEP use to gain back your E (though I don't advice getting slow around too many bogies in any plane, but this works well when you need to get a quick angle on a spitsteen).
When diving, watch your speed; cut throttle before going in and glide down. You'll usually have to look for a really good angle before winging over, so have some patients and keep your SA up.
Also, practice Power-On and Power-Off vertical stalling to help you learn about the engine torque. Practice doing several full flap brake turns and see just how many angles you can squeeze out of the k-4 before your wing stalls out on you. This will, again, help you learn to manage your engine’s power and how to work with your rudder (try and keep the ball centered unless you need to do some braking or cutting into your opponent’s flight path). If the plane feels like it’s about to roll, throw in some opposite rudder and maybe pull in (if you’re going left) or open up ( if you’re going right) the throttle a bit to help counter the stalls.
Again, I am not the expert at this bird, but I’ve been flying it for a couple of months. Most of the advice I’ve given you has come from Ardy and Agent360. Keep an eye out, as previously suggested, for any of the Muppets, they are amazing pilots in any crate and many of them know how to make magic happen in the 109K-4.
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crossing shots are alot easier then under nose shots, out alomst doulbe the lead and only shoot about 3-5 taters per burst
make sure to chop throttle in rolling scissors
practise makes perfect with the 30mm
dont dive too hard :lol
Take stall limter "OFF" its a must
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2yFy8-gfL0
notice im attempting to make crossing shots, alot more target to shoot at
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What Owlblink said.
I set the tater to 225 and the MGs to 400 so i can ping and annoy the running enemy from distance and got an accurate shot for the big gun. Basically you cant hit anything with the tater from 400+, its pointless to spray. Get close, set up a crossing snapshot or a deflection shot, and you will hit the target. Dont forget to lead a lot, just like in the MG-FF cannon. It has real poor balistics but 1 ping will usually kill the opponent.
You can turn against all the faster fighters: Las, p51s, jugs, tiffies, 190s etc. Against the others you cant turn, but you can overshoot. The best tactic is the above mentioned vertical rolling scissors with the torq roll on the top. Use your flaps, they are great, but harshly increase the torq. effects. Set up your merges smart, you wanna roll left on the top. Right can be a pain, youll need to chop throttle or/and snap, but in the left, with perfect throttle control it will roll into the needed direction like a dream. The plane is nose-heavy, you can push it hard, reverse under 60mph, you wont fall into a flat spin unless you want to.
Using the snaprolls to force a quick overshoot and a snapshot is another decent tactic. Chop the throttle, bait your opponent, only a very few planes can snaproll better than the k-4, then the 1-ping gun will finish the red guy real quick.
Find a trainer. Ardy123 aka Bunnies is a good k-4 stik and a great teacher. He will show you how to fly "outta airflow", how to tailslide, instantly change your nose direction where and when you want. Krupnsky uses theese tactics all the time and hes real good in it.
GL sir
:salute
Edit: its just my experience. Im not really good in the k-4 tho.
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Don't underestimate the importance of convergence on the K4. Max convergence will sling the 30mm shell upwards quite a bit. Some people enjoy this effect but others don't, its totally a personal thing.
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What Owlblink said.
I set the tater to 225 and the MGs to 400 so i can ping and annoy the running enemy from distance and got an accurate shot for the big gun. Basically you cant hit anything with the tater from 400+, its pointless to spray. Get close, set up a crossing snapshot or a deflection shot, and you will hit the target. Dont forget to lead a lot, just like in the MG-FF cannon. It has real poor balistics but 1 ping will usually kill the opponent.
You can turn against all the faster fighters: Las, p51s, jugs, tiffies, 190s etc. Against the others you cant turn, but you can overshoot. The best tactic is the above mentioned vertical rolling scissors with the torq roll on the top. Use your flaps, they are great, but harshly increase the torq. effects. Set up your merges smart, you wanna roll left on the top. Right can be a pain, youll need to chop throttle or/and snap, but in the left, with perfect throttle control it will roll into the needed direction like a dream. The plane is nose-heavy, you can push it hard, reverse under 60mph, you wont fall into a flat spin unless you want to.
Using the snaprolls to force a quick overshoot and a snapshot is another decent tactic. Chop the throttle, bait your opponent, only a very few planes can snaproll better than the k-4, then the 1-ping gun will finish the red guy real quick.
Find a trainer. Ardy123 aka Bunnies is a good k-4 stik and a great teacher. He will show you how to fly "outta airflow", how to tailslide, instantly change your nose direction where and when you want. Krupnsky uses theese tactics all the time and hes real good in it.
GL sir
:salute
Edit: its just my experience. Im not really good in the k-4 tho.
Just because you don't practice the art of the tater enough, is no reason to spread lies. :D
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Just because you don't practice the art of the tater enough, is no reason to spread lies. :D
Ooopps sorry im real low on the tater aim then...
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Ooopps sorry im real low on the tater aim then...
Actually forget I said anything...
If you are 400+ from you are completely safe.
In fact, feel free to fly straight and level....
:noid
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I've got my tater set to 650 convergence. The extra upward angle allows a more normal snapshot picture with less lead required and you can easily hit at 650+ if needed although most of my shots are still within 400.
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I've got my tater set to 650 convergence. The extra upward angle allows a more normal snapshot picture with less lead required and you can easily hit at 650+ if needed although most of my shots are still within 400.
Only if you're leading a target that's pulling into a turn.
If you're trying to hit something straight and level (i.e. a runner) it'll screw your aim up big time unless he's exactly at 650 yards. I find that happens quite often.
I'm of the opinion you set it to the range you kill most at. Don't set it to "lob"... don't set it to "drop"... That screws with your mental estimation of lob/drop. You should be taking that into consideration rather than compensating and then NOT taking into consideration, if you get what I'm saying?
IMO set the Mk108 to shorter ranges unless you're hunting bombers specifically. It is an inaccurate weapon, no getting around that. Best way to kill with it is closer to the target.
Don't underestimate the importance of convergence on the K4. Max convergence will sling the 30mm shell upwards quite a bit. Some people enjoy this effect but others don't, its totally a personal thing.
Ultimately I do think it comes down to this, but if somebody is new to the 30mm I would suggest a shorter range to become more familiar with it, before deciding that they want to "sling" the round higher. They need to understand it under normal situations before changing it to abnormal.
Not that I'm all that great with it myself, but I get by sometimes.
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You need to be mindful of dispersion when you shoot the 30mm at the longer ranges. You can aim correctly and still miss.
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Tater set at 225 13's set to 325
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MaSonZ,
I am bunnies... (In game ID)
1) hook up with a trainer, have them show you the basics
2) find me in game and I'll show you some stuff to practice
3) hook up with owlblink and others trying to learn it, practice with them.
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MaSonZ,
I am bunnies... (In game ID)
1) hook up with a trainer, have them show you the basics
2) find me in game and I'll show you some stuff to practice
3) hook up with owlblink and others trying to learn it, practice with them.
Bunnies, I'll look for you in game. For the others that wish to learn it, if you see me in game dont be afraid to shoot me a PM. if im in the mood I'll gladly wing up. In-game Im HogDweeb.
as for the convergence, ill set it to my normal 400. I shoot every other gun (ewxcept 20's and the Il2's 37mm) at 400. I know my lead from there, and if i can find the double for it itll help me.
:salute
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Get Agent360's films if you can. You should be able to dig them up in a search of the help board.
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Get Agent360's films if you can. You should be able to dig them up in a search of the help board.
search is down :cry woulda searched and not posted if it was up.
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Actually forget I said anything...
If you are 400+ from you are completely safe.
In fact, feel free to fly straight and level....
:noid
do what VonMessa says. he has beers.
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lol ok ok
if im in that k-4, i can spray all my taters to you if youre flyin str8 400 from me, i wont hit... just thought not im the only one this lame
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I can't hit anything unless I'm within 200 with taters.
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I can't hit anything unless I'm within 200 with taters.
Yea, deflection shots are a different story though, get enough lead and 600yrd shots aren't hard to make.
When I fly the K4 I try to keep my plane above 250mph at all times, gives me enough speed to climb up or dive quickly if I need to get away from trouble.
Don't make the mistake of trying to turn often, for people new to the K4 it's more important to E fight a bit more than you would and learn the torque/stall characteristics at slow speeds. When you get more familiar w/ the K4, going from a turn fight to an E fight in the blink of an eye won't be hard. Practice Practice Practice and experiment w/ different things, best way to learn a new plane.
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do what VonMessa says. he has beers.
WOOT!
Making more tomorrow night, too :rock
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direct link to the films
http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/agent360_narrated.zip (http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/agent360_narrated.zip)
http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/agent360_films.zip (http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/agent360_films.zip)
hope they help
Agent360
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crossing shots are alot easier then under nose shots, out alomst doulbe the lead and only shoot about 3-5 taters per burst
make sure to chop throttle in rolling scissors
practise makes perfect with the 30mm
dont dive too hard :lol
Take stall limter "OFF" its a must
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2yFy8-gfL0
notice im attempting to make crossing shots, alot more target to shoot at
Wow.
What was the maneuver you made during the engagement from 1:02-1:26 (two camera angles of same kill)? Appears to be some kind of tail slide where you spin/reverse and still manage a shot in the stall (inverted, no less). It is a stunningly surprising reverse! (I see why you showed it twice in slo-mo.)
I’d like to have someone show me how this move can be executed, as it seems to defy my perception of physics.
<S>
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Wow.
What was the maneuver you made during the engagement from 1:02-1:26 (two camera angles of same kill)? Appears to be some kind of tail slide where you spin/reverse and still manage a shot in the stall (inverted, no less). It is a stunningly surprising reverse! (I see why you showed it twice in slo-mo.)
I’d like to have someone show me how this move can be executed, as it seems to defy my perception of physics.
<S>
You can find a few more examples of that move in Lepape's Jug film:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,311571.0.html
Even playing as long as I have, that move makes me blink. Can't say I've ever done it (to my awareness) - I'm sure it may have been done to me (but didn't "recognize it")
If anything it's a snap-stall where certain flying surface input combinations create the lift (or lack of it, if you prefer) needed to make the plane do that. Anyone can do it and I guess some have practiced enough to maintain "control" and an acute awareness of where the other plane is, and going, in order to make the shot.
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Wow.
What was the maneuver you made during the engagement from 1:02-1:26 (two camera angles of same kill)? Appears to be some kind of tail slide where you spin/reverse and still manage a shot in the stall (inverted, no less). It is a stunningly surprising reverse! (I see why you showed it twice in slo-mo.)
I’d like to have someone show me how this move can be executed, as it seems to defy my perception of physics.
<S>
Ya, thats a tailslide getting lucky and he is showing it as an only-the-skill move :P
Btw, nice one, you would win that fight easily even without that lucky ping, that pretty much overshot him. Why the heck i never can do it as perfectly?? <S>
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Wow.
What was the maneuver you made during the engagement from 1:02-1:26 (two camera angles of same kill)? Appears to be some kind of tail slide where you spin/reverse and still manage a shot in the stall (inverted, no less). It is a stunningly surprising reverse! (I see why you showed it twice in slo-mo.)
I’d like to have someone show me how this move can be executed, as it seems to defy my perception of physics.
<S>
ah I was a fine day for me :) it was a lucky thing, I do it all the time with many fails, but the reward is well worth the fail! :lolYa, thats a tailslide getting lucky and he is showing it as an only-the-skill move :P
Btw, nice one, you would win that fight easily even without that lucky ping, that pretty much overshot him. Why the heck i never can do it as perfectly?? <S>
heheh I have tried almost 100 times with only 3 times I got a shot 2 of them were kill shots
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Wannabe version of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBgHv_GgAW0&feature=channel_video_title
:neener:
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You can find a few more examples of that move in Lepape's Jug film:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,311571.0.html
Sheesh. The Jug must have been the most maneuverable plane in WWII! :rolleyes:
My first inquiry actually had me interested in learning/practicing more tail-slides. But it's this kind of stuff that makes me question the integrity of the physics as modeled in the game. You can flip over a 40-ton tank by rubbing against a shrub, and the Jug (of all planes) and do this stuff.
Sadly the more I learn and see of AH, the more this looks like pure fantasy to me, and not what I'd expect from a "sim". More discouraging than encouraging, frankly, WRT my wanting to learn/fly more in AH. Just my honest opinion after watching this. Maybe I'm way off base...
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Wannabe version of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBgHv_GgAW0&feature=channel_video_title
:neener:
Speaking of YouTube videos...how's yours coming krupcake? :D :P
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Speaking of YouTube videos...how's yours coming krupcake? :D :P
I've had a few lucky reversals in my 109k, but this stuff makes me want to build an alter to you guys :pray
I'm just starting to get the hang of Hammerheads (and I still stall out at least a quarter of the time). I've done tail slides by accident, but never got a shot off:-P Once I was flying an LA7, trying to outdo a Dhog, and I somehow slid around on my lift vector and almost got a guns solution on the guy. Scared the crap out of him AND me :rofl
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I've had a few lucky reversals in my 109k, but this stuff makes me want to build an alter to you guys :pray
I'm just starting to get the hang of Hammerheads (and I still stall out at least a quarter of the time). I've done tail slides by accident, but never got a shot off:-P Once I was flying an LA7, trying to outdo a Dhog, and I somehow slid around on my lift vector and almost got a guns solution on the guy. Scared the crap out of him AND me :rofl
Really it's just trial and error, I have made hundreds of attempts and failed numerously. Just the times you make it, you gotta let it shine!