Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Raptor05121 on July 10, 2011, 04:29:37 PM
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Hey guys I'm looking to expand my envelope here. I'm mostly a bomber buff but I've been getting a few more name in lights with the Newbfire, Pony, and Jug. I know there is more fun to have wither the 109 and 190 so I'd like to get my hands into that german cannonry, but I have no idea where to start. Can someone give me an overview of each of the models of the 109 and 190? Such as pros/cons, notes, etc. I tried searching but I'm getting too specific stuff on single models. Just looking for an overview to help my transition into the German rides.
<S>
Alex
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Think of the 109 as a Newbfire and Pony mixed together, it's fast, maneuverable, and can climb extremely well. The 190 is most closely related to the P47, although the P47 has more of an edge in maneuverability.
You need to lead shots amost twice as much as you would with .50s
The best advice you're going to get is by flying them for yourself and figuring out what works for you.
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I'm one who is extremely partial to the 109F.... Why? Back when the revised 109s were introduced, and the flight model revised, I started flying the 109F a great deal. I remember how I introduced many to the uber flaps. One well known and highly respected player (and very capable dueler) met me in the TA to explore the capability of the 109F. He flew just about everything in the inventory against my 109F. Zeros, Spits, LaLas, Niki, F4Us and the like. The 109F won every duel. Of course, you fly it differently depending upon the opposing fighter.
It's not like the 109F hasn't weaknesses. It does. However, those weaknesses can be avoided. For example, every 109 has torque issues at low speed. This is magnified if you have the flaps out. At high AoA, very low speed, 109s simply will not roll to the right with the throttle up (even with full right rudder)... You can pull off power, but you risk a stall. I learned that it is invariably better to simply roll left and adjust as required.
Bighorn2 (using one of his many aliases), and I slugged it out with me in a 109G2 and him in an La-7. The 109G2 was better overall. However, only as long as I avoided the torque issues by sticking to my dictum of "always go left". The reason is that going right takes too much time or depletes E by chopping power. Without exception, going left was quicker and left me in a better position to fight. If I had broken with my rule, the La-7 would have gained an advantage. This is a general rule and it applies to every 109, including the K model.
All 109s suffer from control stiffness at very high speeds. Keep it below 500 mph. Use trim to get them out of high speed dives if necessary. Visibility is marginal... Don't load external guns (gondolas) unless you plan to attack bombers and not have to deal with fighters. Utilize the excellent climb and acceleration. 30mm cannon will kill any fighter with one hit... If you're new to 109s, avoid the 30mm if possible until you have some time in the 109s. The 30mm ballistics are poor and it takes much practice to develop good accuracy. On the other hand, the 20mm is more than adequate if you can get several hits.
All in all, any model of 109 will be fun and lethal....
190s... I fly them a bit in the MA. I duel in them often enough to feel confident in the aircraft. Ultimately, 190s depend upon maintaining E, either in the form of speed or altitude that can be quickly converted. Do not expect to out turn anything short of a bomber, and some bombers can turn inside any 190 (Boston and A-20G being two). This is a fighter that thrives on being flown fast and in the vertical. It can change lift vectors instantaneously, which is beneficial in getting a pursuing enemy out of sync... Don't bother with a flat scissors. Why? Because any pursuing pilot worth a hoot will simply high yo-yo and shoot off your winkie post-haste. Remember, the way to avoid an overshoot is to change directions. Going vertical is a great way to take advantage of a 190 driver trying to force an overshoot with a flat scissors. He's burned off his E and you're sitting above him with every advantage. 190s are well armed and well armored... They can give and take a beating.
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I have to disagree with 'Always Roll Left'. SunsFan told me that along time ago, since then I've tried rolling right and have gained the advantage in fights countless times by going against the torque, it burns alot of E but that's not always a bad thing when fighting certain planes.
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I have to disagree with 'Always Roll Left'. SunsFan told me that along time ago, since then I've tried rolling right and have gained the advantage in fights countless times by going against the torque, it burns alot of E but that's not always a bad thing when fighting certain planes.
Remember, I call this a general rule... Under certain circumstances, reducing power and rolling right may be beneficial. I have films where I did just that, but not against an equal pilot in a fighter than rolls right easily when I have no advantage at the time. For someone new to 109s, I'd suggest sticking to the rule until they have the skill level to do otherwise, assuming they advance that far.
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I haven't flown in a bit, but if, at close range, the red 109 icon resolves itself into a red "109F", my next move in the Mossie is to Run Away. Not so for other 109s.
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Fly a 109F and g6 first. Good learning planes. 109F favorite 109 to deliver ze pown!
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good tips. keep them coming
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Widewing gave a great overview of them. I'm not a very good 190 stick so I'll let others cover those. As a general rule with the 109 series the later the model the more emphasis was placed on speed vs manueverability. eg. 109F will out turn a G6, but the later models with the more power, you tend to use them more as an energy fighter then a turn fighter. The G2 and G6 tend to be the middle ground 109's, not bad in either area of use. I persoanlly find the G2 to be the most versatile of the bunch, but firepower tends to be a bit weak in this model (same gun package as the F). When you get to the G14 and K4 you start talking some serious power and the torque issues that go along with them. The G14 tends to be a bit more agile then the K4, some will argue this, as I tend to feel the K4 is easier to fly hard. The K4 is all about power, the thing is simply awsome in the verticle fight, and it doesn't turn bad for such a high powered plane. It's main drawback for newer players is trying to hit with that 30mm hub cannon. The 109's all fly similiar but there are big differences between an F and K, the trick is to find one that fits how you want to fight or fight most often.
:salute
BigRat
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If you want to get easy kills, dont fly the G-6.
But if you want to improve fast, fly the G-6 and nothing else.
Its not fast, about the same as the spit16, climbs and runs a little bit worse, but has like 9 minutes of wep. 315mph on the deck, 337 with wep, but rapidly increasing up to 6k when it can do 360 with wep. Also climbs the best at 6k. Over this altitude, you wont notice any major speed improvement, tops out at 21k, 395mph.
The maneuverability isnt as bad. Clearly better than the Pony, a little bit better than the La, about in par with the ki-84 but clearly worse than the spits. Dont turn with them unless youre very light on fuel (under 35%), open the flaps soon and overshoot, use the snaprolls (the 109 excels in it). The turn radius is better than the turn rate, avoid the flat turns, the scissors are your friend. Try to fight uphill if possible, even this weaksauce 109 has its biggest strenght in the vertical scissors.
Its nose-heavy, you can push it hard, wont fall into unrecoverable spin. The nose-heavyness also helps in the reversals, you can go "up" until you totally run out of speed, then simply chop throttle, kick the rudder and instantly turn 180 degrees. It can and will do crazy stuff, but always go nose-down very soon.
Best luck, sir. Any more questions in connection with the G-6, send a pm.
:salute
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If you want to get easy kills, dont fly the G-6.
But if you want to improve fast, fly the G-6 and nothing else.
Its not fast, about the same as the spit16, climbs and runs a little bit worse, but has like 9 minutes of wep. 315mph on the deck, 337 with wep, but rapidly increasing up to 6k when it can do 360 with wep. Also climbs the best at 6k. Over this altitude, you wont notice any major speed improvement, tops out at 21k, 395mph.
The maneuverability isnt as bad. Clearly better than the Pony, a little bit better than the La, about in par with the ki-84 but clearly worse than the spits. Dont turn with them unless youre very light on fuel (under 35%), open the flaps soon and overshoot, use the snaprolls (the 109 excels in it). The turn radius is better than the turn rate, avoid the flat turns, the scissors are your friend. Try to fight uphill if possible, even this weaksauce 109 has its biggest strenght in the vertical scissors.
Its nose-heavy, you can push it hard, wont fall into unrecoverable spin. The nose-heavyness also helps in the reversals, you can go "up" until you totally run out of speed, then simply chop throttle, kick the rudder and instantly turn 180 degrees. It can and will do crazy stuff, but always go nose-down very soon.
Best luck, sir. Any more questions in connection with the G-6, send a pm.
:salute
I second this, I haven't flown in a little under 2 years now but the G6 hands down is the optimal 109 to learn them in.. It's not entirely out of the rookie category but it does require some basic 109 knowledge to get the full potential out of it. The nose heavy trait is what sets it apart from the other 109s (excluding the K4 rocket), It's not the fastest nor the slowest and it's weight makes it very stable at low speed knife fights and vertical maneuvering. The gun package is what makes it shine, those 13mm MG's and 20mm nose cannon will knock down just about every single engine fighter and twin engine fighters are big enough to put a solid burst to bring them down without a problem... If you're looking for more firepower the 30mm is a step above insuring kills almost every time your bullets land on target.
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The 190 is most closely related to the P47, although the P47 has more of an edge in maneuverability.
:huh
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:huh
Sir, why we cant see a 190 virtuose who does moves like Lepape? ;)
MjTalon, i would disagree about the shinig firepower. It sukks in a many vs many, you have to stay behind your target for a while, snapshots wont bring it down. Its pretty much enough in the 1v1 tho.
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Final word on which to stick to: G6 or F?
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Its only on you, sir.
The F is the german spit-9, a very good turnfighter.
The G6 is only marginally faster but turns much worse.
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:huh
I'll take a P47 on in an A5 or 152 any day, if you had to compare each one to another plane in the game, they'd be the most similar.
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While it's true - and has been commented - that 109 control stiffness above 500kts is notable, never forget that all 109s come equipped with a large speed brake. Most call it the rudder but, full deployed and combined with the right throttle setting, it will keep you from needing your trim keys. I use the speed brake a lot when carrying gondos because this, combined with the stellar climb of the g-14, enables you to get alt quickly, dive in a controlled manner to acquire a 6, get the snapshot, and then zoom out after zeroing the rudder.
True, that drag burns E - also true: you can't retain all your E in a dive with the 109 -the high speed handling won't permit it.
Otherwise, it's the only fighter that feels "right" to me somehow. I think it's the climb and WEP and range of underwing stores (all of which detract from pure fighting ability). Now, someone please tell me how best to defeat a SpitXVI with a G-14 from a co-E situation.
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Otherwise, it's the only fighter that feels "right" to me somehow. I think it's the climb and WEP and range of underwing stores (all of which detract from pure fighting ability). Now, someone please tell me how best to defeat a SpitXVI with a G-14 from a co-E situation.
if your plane cant win the fight, then you have to fly better than the opponent : )
overshoot, snapshot
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Well guys. My first two hours in a G6 landed me 4 kills in three sorties, so I think I'll be flying her from now often. Anyone have any in-depth reading on the 6?
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Sir,
i spent my whole AH career in the G-6. Pm me, what you want to know, ill answer.
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if your plane cant win the fight, then you have to fly better than the opponent : )
overshoot, snapshot
So, if I'm reading you correctly, force the overshoot since the XVI is notoriously miserly on keeping its E. Then snap the ponk-ace, in keeping with the fact that only the worst type of scoreponk flies the XVI... Am I reading you correctly? I gues=s my next question would be how best to force the overshoot. My natural inclination, from my old Dora time, is to roll. This is good for forcing, generally, a missed shot and overshoot on the high-speed b n' z pass or, worst case, a rolling scissor fight. Most of these pony and jug boys like to see you turn because they can hit a turner - so I don't do it. However, because the 109's roll rate is no doubt worse than the XVI's (especially when I'm saddled with my gondies) and because the XVI generally comes in for a bite with a lot less smash, usually I just get killed for this tactic when I'm up against the Spitty. So then what? Snap Roll? Pull into an accelerated stall? What?
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Sir,
i dont want to disappoint you, but in a stallfight, the G14 has no chance agains the spit16, that spitty can do everything better than the Gustav. Against an equal pilot, you will lose every single time.
What you can try?
I like the fast snap-rolls, repeat them many times, burn as much speed as i can, open the flaps, kick the rudder, chop throttle, and you may have a chance til the spitty realizes that you got behind him and starts a sustained turn or finally can open its flaps. You have two very small speed-windows when the planes are almost equal: 165-180mph (second flapnotch) and under 100mph where the nose-heavy 109 can gain advantage in the vertical hammerhead-style reversals.
I dont like to turn with the spitfires if i have too much fuel. In the G-6 i avoid the turnfights with them when i have more than 50% fuel. The G-14 isnt as much heavyer than the G-6, even with the tater gun, what gives you an awsome firepower for the snapshots. I never fly with the gondolas on, it may be hard to aim the tater, but once you get used to it, it makes you almost unstoppable.
There are virtuoses, like Krupnski, who mastered the tailslide tactics. It can be useful if you exactly know how the plane will turn to the control inputs, but can turn you into an easy, big target right in front of the opponents guns. Ask a muppet, they will show you how to reverse in the top of the scissors, basically 70% throttle, pull the stick full back n left plus full right rudder at very low speeds and the plane will turn instantly nose-down.
:salute
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Against equal pilots, in a co-e situation, you have one chance to nail a spit16, so don't updog it. The 109s can slow down much faster, so force an overshoot and take the snapshot, if you fail, run!
Thankfully, most spit 16 pilots are not very good, so you can often get away with turning with them and still win.
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Whats the general consensus on the G6? Avoid turn-fighting? It seems a 38L and Spitty can out-turn me, so what to do with them, BnZ?
Whats a good way to get someone off your tail with this? Its not as easy to bleed speed as the 51
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A plane with a great roll rate can beat a plane that turns well. Not just in the vertical...
A 190-A5's roll rate is incredible. If you are directly above a plane you can out roll it's uber turning as you come down on them. Being directly above them is ideal for this technique. In effect, you have nullified the planes superior turn-ability.
At least on this pass. ;-)
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Only problem being, unless you land the shot, you'll run out of E or alt, depending on whether you're rolling nose up or nose down... Of course, your quarry is burning it too in his high-g turn.
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Whats the general consensus on the G6? Avoid turn-fighting? It seems a 38L and Spitty can out-turn me, so what to do with them, BnZ?
Whats a good way to get someone off your tail with this? Its not as easy to bleed speed as the 51
The p-38 shouldnt outturn you. Be brave against them, dont be afraid about the turnfights, avoid their rope and you cant lose. hint:open the flaps, kick the rudder, force the overshoot
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Once a P-38 drops flaps and commits to a turn fight with your 109G6 take your fight nose-high, as the P-38 will now be much less capable in the vertical. Roll over on him or if he dives away now you're behind him and can control the fight better.
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109s and 190s climb very well, much better than most people realize. The reason is because people often keep full power until the torque causes them to get dragged over and down. As an experiment, go vert & as your airspeed reaches ~100 gently pull off the throttle until by the time your going 65mph you have the throttle off, you will be surprised how far you climb and 'glide' vertically. Then, to reverse, give some rudder and just enough throttle to roll and drop the nose.
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I think most people know the reputation of a 109 is to be a monster of a climber. The 190s won't do it nearly as well, having a much worse sustained climb rate, but are still sometimes better than the average US ride they might meet in combat.
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I think most people know the reputation of a 109 is to be a monster of a climber. The 190s won't do it nearly as well, having a much worse sustained climb rate, but are still sometimes better than the average US ride they might meet in combat.
Oh, sure they know it can, but I'm trying to help explain to them how to get every inch of climb out of it.
The charts aren't working for me right now, but the 190D-9 (late war 190 to use as an example) will climb better than most in game rides.
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True... The Dora will climb 4000 fpm from sea level up to 5-6k-ish. Above it drops rapidly, but I agree that most folks probably don't know that detail.
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Once a P-38 drops flaps and commits to a turn fight with your 109G6 take your fight nose-high, as the P-38 will now be much less capable in the vertical. Roll over on him or if he dives away now you're behind him and can control the fight better.
Yes, please fight us P-38s in the vertical -- we're awful at getting the nose up at low speeds. ;)
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Yes, please fight us P-38s in vertical ? we're awful at getting the nose up at low speeds. ;)
you want to know what drives the '38s batch1t crazy, fake a rolling scissors and bait them into a flat scissors, pull nose high do one barrel roll with them, then as they pass on the left, roll and slightly to the left, then snap roll to the right and turn and shoot as the pull up right in front of you from below.
Its esp fun to do it to Cactus and Silat. The former will auger :D and the latter's high heals almost hit you every time :D
EDIT: In all seriousness, I recommend fighting them both, they are cool people and you will learn a lot.
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Yes, please fight us P-38s in the vertical -- we're awful at getting the nose up at low speeds. ;)
Your nose goes up through sheer habit anytime anybody gets near, but if you're slow enough to have comitted to a flaps-using turn fight, your nose ain't going up very much.
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you want to know what drives the '38s batch1t crazy, fake a rolling scissors and bait them into a flat scissors, pull nose high do one barrel roll with them, then as they pass on the left, roll and slightly to the left, then snap roll to the right and turn and shoot as the pull up right in front of you from below.
Its esp fun to do it to Cactus and Silat. The former will auger :D and the latter's high heals almost hit you every time :D
EDIT: In all seriousness, I recommend fighting them both, they are cool people and you will learn a lot.
Yeah, but you forgot the bit between the point where you shoot and I auger.
Right when you shot, I roll to show you my top profile. You fire, and thanks to horrible rof of Mk 108, the first round goes through the space between the horizontal stab and the wing (that's why it was built like that). By the time the second round fires, I've zoomed past you. Then I'm hanging on the props at 0 mph while you're struggling to control your torque after bleeding your E for the shot. I cut one engine and do 540 degree hammer (540s are better than normal hammerheads). Right when I'm about to take the winning shot I realize I forgot to power back up my engine and then spin into the ground.
You forgot that bit. :D :neener: :bolt:
Your nose goes up through sheer habit anytime anybody gets near, but if you're slow enough to have comitted to a flaps-using turn fight, your nose ain't going up very much.
Please follow this advice 109 pilots! Particularly if you're fighting me!
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If you want to truly learn the 109, don't fight in the vertical.
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If you want to truly learn the 109, don't fight in the vertical.
....be the flat scissors mastah!
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....be the flat scissors mastah!
Or learn to shoot a tater :old: :joystick:
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Or learn to shoot a tater :old: :joystick:
well that's hopeless.. that's like getting wmaker to not be angry
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After flying the F, I've realized its guns are like rubber bullets. I like the 1000mg/600can but I put about 500/200 into a lanc at 200 and it wouldnt go down.
going back to the G6.
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Sir, if you wanna hunt buffs: up a G-2/G-14 with gondolas, small ammo load in the motorcanaone, set the convergence to 500ish or up a K-4/G-14 with the tater, put 4-5 potatoes to the same spot.
Be aware tho, those gondies hurt your speed/turn performance badly.
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After flying the F, I've realized its guns are like rubber bullets. I like the 1000mg/600can but I put about 500/200 into a lanc at 200 and it wouldnt go down.
going back to the G6.
You were doing it wrong :P
While the Lanc is currently a damage sponge, you can still take it out with a 109F4. The 7mms are very very weak but still can do some damage. You simply have to get them and the cannons all in the same spot.
If you're raking it from stem to stern and wingtip to wingtip, you might not do much. You need to land your hits in one spot in order to cause a failure somewhere (wing, tail, whatever).