Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Lusche on July 20, 2011, 04:59:50 PM
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... which I'm really curious about how it will play out is the thickness of the turret and hull top armor. So far the best protected tanks in AH have 25-26mm of armor there, but according to several sources I have checked, the Tiger II has 40-44mm.
Against the Il-2 and the Hurricane IID, that could make a difference. If so, it could make for some interesting offensive options...
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... which I'm really curious about how it will play out is the thickness of the turret and hull top armor. So far the best protected tanks in AH have 25-26mm of armor there, but according to several sources I have checked, the Tiger II has 40-44mm.
Against the Il-2 and the Hurricane IID, that could make a difference. If so, it could make for some interesting offensive options...
Never fear, the 1999 enabled yard big RED icon will show the bomb tards right where he is sitting. The other Achillies heel of the KT is going to be turret traverse. Did this thing have true pivot ability like the Panther and Tiger?
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(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/AH2%20screenshots/kt.jpg)
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Never fear, the 1999 enabled yard big RED icon will show the bomb tards right where he is sitting.
Yes, but you can disable ords at enemy fields. And then you have an opportunity... that's what happened in the old times. Ords went down and a few couple of GVs spawned in. If there were one or two Tigers amongst them, the base was in trouble and you could really have a exciting battle, as - in absentia 37mm Il-2 and B-25H - the only thing that could then reliably stop a Tiger was another Tiger.
But of course, in most AH situations the undoubtedly highly perked Tiger II will be playing on home turf only, mostly on concrete...
(That's one general problem in AH ground gameplay - if you spawn in to attack an enemy base, you are basically a dead tank from the start. Few are really willing to gamble a huge amount of perks if the chance of getting "home" in any way are almost nil.)
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Actually I believe the new Tiger 1 has 40mm of top turret armour as well. The last few months of Tiger 1 production had this mod incorporated, along with the monocular gunsight and some other stuff and that's the version HTC have modelled. Not sure if the old AH Tiger 1 had 25mm or 40mm top turret armour though.
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If only it would break down, and run out of fuel like the real deal :)
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It does run out of fuel after a while.
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Actually I believe the new Tiger 1 has 40mm of top turret armour as well. The last few months of Tiger 1 production had this mod incorporated, along with the monocular gunsight and some other stuff and that's the version HTC have modelled. Not sure if the old AH Tiger 1 had 25mm or 40mm top turret armour though.
the old AH Tiger 1 has 26mm, according to the info in hangar and the ease at which my Hurri D kills it :)
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The NS-37, unusually for the USSR, used a short-recoil mechanism and was belt-fed. It was a particularly slim weapon, with a compact mechanism, suitable for fitting between the banks of a liquid-cooled vee-engine to fire through the hollow propeller hub. The powerful 37x195 ammunition is quoted as penetrating 48mm / 500m / 90 degrees, enough to pose a threat to the side or rear armour of virtually any tank.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm)
...so it'll be hardest tank to kill with an Il-2 but according the above still very much killable.
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The NS-37, unusually for the USSR, used a short-recoil mechanism and was belt-fed. It was a particularly slim weapon, with a compact mechanism, suitable for fitting between the banks of a liquid-cooled vee-engine to fire through the hollow propeller hub. The powerful 37x195 ammunition is quoted as penetrating 48mm / 500m / 90 degrees, enough to pose a threat to the side or rear armour of virtually any tank.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm)
...so it'll be hardest tank to kill with an Il-2 but according the above still very much killable.
"Very much" is somewhat debatable. ;)
The thing is, very few players are able to dive on their target at such a steep angle while still being able to hit the moving tank and not to auger. Even 60? dive angle is quite difficult and rarely seen in Il-2 attacks in AH. It's easy to misjudge the diving angle, the actual dive is often far less steep as one thinks when sitting in the cockpit. (I recently reviewed some of my successful Hurri D runs and what thought being 60-70? dives were in fact only 45? ones when I measured the angle :uhoh ....)
An armor plate being 40mm thick at 90? dive angle would have an effective thickness of 46mm at 60? and 57mm at 45?. And this is not taking into effect any additional glancing modifiers caused by the slope. For example I know that the 37mm APCR round of the Ju-87D could penetrate ~95mm of armor at 600m and 90 degrees, but only half of that at 60 degrees.
great... now the forum is also changing the degree symbol into a "?" :rolleyes:
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What is the side thickness of an M4/76? I know that I can take out those at with a 0 deflection at lawnmower alt in an IL2 with a decent burst. Once again it seems with any deflection there is high chance of a richocet, and you're a sitting duck for the main gun.
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Wonder what the armor penetration of a Mollins 57mm gun was?
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What is the side thickness of an M4/76? I know that I can take out those at with a 0 deflection at lawnmower alt in an IL2 with a decent burst. Once again it seems with any deflection there is high chance of a richocet, and you're a sitting duck for the main gun.
38mm
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well thats closer, but that extra 2-6mm could be a world of difference.
do you know if certain "weak" spots are modeled in our GVs, like the ammo bin on the upper front side of the m4?
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It is also much easier to get a near 90 degree hit on a M4A3's side armor than it will be to get a similar hit on the deck armor of a Tiger II.
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To illustrate:
This is a typical, successful attack on a tank by me in a Hurricane D:
(http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/97/45degrees.jpg)
And that's only 45 degrees.
Against a T-34/76 or a Tiger I would have used a steeper angle (up to 60 deg), but that takes a very careful setup and is quite easy to foil for the enemy tank if he's free to move. Most regular players I see doing attack runs in Il-2s come in at angles between 30 and 45 degrees.
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Here is a link showing some information about the Mollins 57mm.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Molins.htm
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The King Tiger?s 88mm main gun has a muzzle velocity of 1000m per second when firing armor piercing rounds. It was highly accurate and able to penetrate 150mm of armor at distances exceeding 2200m. Since the flight time of an armor piercing round at a range of 2200m is about 2.2 seconds or less, accuracy and correction of fire against moving targets is more important than with older anti tank guns. This made this heavy predator ideally suited to open terrain where it could engage enemy tanks at long range before the opponent?s weapons were even in range.
Krupp had designed the turrets to fit both the Porsche and Henschel chassis. The initial design called P-2 Turm (or commonly known as Porsche turret) mounted a single piece (monobloc) barrel of the 88mm and had a curved mantlet in the front. The front armor was 100 mm thick, the sides were 88mm thick sloped at 60 degrees and the top armor was 40mm thick. It had space to carry 16 rounds of ammunition in the turret. However, the curved mantlet in the front acted as a shot trap by deflecting incoming shots downwards towards the roof of the hull. A new design was ordered to fix this but as an interim measure, it was decided to go ahead with the production of 50 units with this turret. This was commonly referred to as Porsche turret. The new design called Serien Turm, or commonly known as Henschel or Production turret was to retain the many features of the Porsche turret and was to be adopted for mass production. Henschel turret had the front curved mantlet replaced with one 180mm thick armor plate sloped at 81 degrees. The sides were altered to slope at 69 degrees and it could carry an additional 6 six rounds or 22 rounds of ammunition in the turret. The full combat weight was 68,500kg when fitted with the Porsche turret and 69,800kg with the Henschel turret.
Armor (mm/angle) Front Side Rear Top/Bottom
Porsche turret 100/curved 80/30 80/30 40/77 40/90
Henschel turret 180/9 80/21 80/21 40/78 40/90
Superstructure 150/50 80/25 N/A 40/90 40/90
Hull 100/50 80/0 80/0 40- 25/90
Some intresting info here.
http://www.worldwar2aces.com/
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I wonder how well the turret rear hatch handles a 37mm...
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(That's one general problem in AH ground gameplay - if you spawn in to attack an enemy base, you are basically a dead tank from the start. Few are really willing to gamble a huge amount of perks if the chance of getting "home" in any way are almost nil.)
I'll do it. I often take out perk tanks on base assults if I know more than 4 vehicles are up. I just in a place no one would expect untill things quiet down, or I 'll just drive off.
do you know if certain "weak" spots are modeled in our GVs, like the ammo bin on the upper front side of the m4?
Side ammo bins of the M4(75). Located along the top edge of the hull.
Side driver's comparment of the T-34, just above the tracks.
Side of the Panzer's turret really seems to be vulnerable to the Il-2's 37mm
Sweet spot for the panther is on the upper engine decking, just behind the turret. You punch through the top armor and get your shells into the fighting compartment, rather than in the engine compartment I would guess.
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well thats closer, but that extra 2-6mm could be a world of difference.
do you know if certain "weak" spots are modeled in our GVs, like the ammo bin on the upper front side of the m4?
Icepack how do you know these weak spots are a part of AH. I am looking for more info than a "hunch" IE. is this part of the coad?
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Icepack :headscratch:? I'm not sure if they're part of the coad, and I'm not sure if HTC would be willing to disclose those sweet-spots if they WERE in the coad
i KNOW the T-34 one is, or at least was real untill the Panther was added if its not still around. IIRC, its the only place you can kill it with an HE round (from a tiger and maybe a panther) aside from the top.
Theres a good aim spot at the base of the M4's hull, its real, its been identifed by the GV community. Would you consider that a weak spot? The same spot is also good for the T-34. Its a weakess with the curved armor. Since it has to curve around to become the bottom of the hull, the slope is less (and in some places non-existant), which results in an area protected by fewer mm of armor.
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OOPS, I meant that question for tank ace :uhoh
starting to confuse them :confused:
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ummmmm...... Icepack hasn't even posted in this thread ;).
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"Very much" is somewhat debatable. ;)
Many things are. :)
Then there's always the tracks which I haven't really fired at a lot because il-2 can kill all tanks in AH outright. If AH continues modelling the tank keeling significantly as the track is gone, that'll make the needed angle smaller.
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If AH continues modelling the tank keeling significantly as the track is gone
They don't do that anymore since tour 135
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They don't do that anymore since tour 135
Aah! Thanks!
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You can see the lineage up through the Leopard II series.
The big question, will the King Tiger PzVI get stuck in sand and 6" of water? haha
Boo
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To illustrate:
This is a typical, successful attack on a tank by me in a Hurricane D:
(http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/97/45degrees.jpg)
And that's only 45 degrees.
Against a T-34/76 or a Tiger I would have used a steeper angle (up to 60 deg), but that takes a very careful setup and is quite easy to foil for the enemy tank if he's free to move. Most regular players I see doing attack runs in Il-2s come in at angles between 30 and 45 degrees.
Great pic Lusche, just out of curiosity your convergence set at 200?
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just out of curiosity your convergence set at 200?
350.
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Lusche you are saying the 20mm from the Hurricane will not track a tank like the T-34/76 anymore. If so that explains a lot to me, thanks.
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Lusche you are saying the 20mm from the Hurricane will not track a tank like the T-34/76 anymore
No I'm not. I'm a bit confused - how you got the impression I may have? The only thing I was talking about in this thread was the Tiger II top armor thickness and its possible consequences.
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TIGER 2 :O :bolt:
All i want to know is how i kill it in my T34-85?? :headscratch:
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All i want to know is how i kill it in my T34-85?? :headscratch:
Flank it.
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Never fear, the 1999 enabled yard big RED icon will show the bomb tards right where he is sitting. The other Achillies heel of the KT is going to be turret traverse. Did this thing have true pivot ability like the Panther and Tiger?
So no more F3 view in the IL2 ?
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350.
I do 300 yards, and dont fire until the range indicator shows 400 yards, and then usually no more then 2-3 volleys before I pull up and reset for another pass.