Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: olds442 on September 17, 2011, 09:42:38 AM
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http://news.yahoo.com/3-dead-more-50-hurt-nev-air-race-085035102.html
:cry :cry :cry
that pilot is a hero... giving his life to stop his plane from crashing into the grandstands.......
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I heard about this... It seems like I have so much to say, that I have no idea what to say. :uhoh
:angel: :salute
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sux not like there are plenty of 51's left.
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I doubt very much that the pilot was in control at all... A similar incident occurred at the 1998 Nationals when Voodoo lost a trim tab and pitched up generating 10g. Pilot GLOC'd and woke up at 9,000 feet... This P-51 also lost a trim tab, and the result was probably GLOC. In this case, he wasn't as lucky....
Yesterday...
(http://media.sacbee.com/smedia/2011/09/16/20/42/M9KqM.St.4.jpg)
1998...
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/315353_2400433855621_1394292441_32820236_767723004_n.jpg)
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Widewing,
In this case, multiple video recording from various angles shows a defining change of course most attribute to a last second control input by the pilot. We may or may not ever know one way or the other, but the FAA was on site and working before the last of the victims was removed from the area, and I am sure they will have the final word.
In the mean time, I choose to believe that Jimmy did make a conscious effort to save the spectators he saw below him while inverted and rolling in.
Jimmy Leeward, rest his soul, was a true professional, and one of the nicest race pilots I ever had the pleasure to meet in all the years I have been attending the RARA event and prowling the pit area at Stead Airport.
The fact that accidents do happen is a given, but the absolute stupidity of the media is beyond me. Why "the talking heads" have to talk, just to get some air time, and why their higher ups can't get them some information prior to question and answer times in this day of instant communication really torks my jaws.
Point...reporter's asked Mike (Mike Houghton, president and CEO of Reno Air Races), the following questions:
"How old was this airplane?"
(The reporter didn't know it was a WWII aircraft),
"Had this plane been modified in any way?"
(Hell yes, it is in the unlimited class, you idiot),
"Is it possible there was a parts failure leading up to this crash?"
(Here's your sign...)
And these same people are telling you about the news of the day.
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hey HB,
I talked to Mars from TSM last night, he was wondering if u was at the races this year and wanted to make sure u was ok. I am glad to see that you posted because I have a different phone and lost a few hundred phone numbers UGGGGGGGGG...or i would have called you. I am glad that your safe and ok, i will also let mars know that you posted on here so he will know ur ok also.
take care sir <<S>>
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See Rule #4
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Betty, will PM you my number. My phone rang off the hook last night. Talk about good friends!
Employer would not let me have Friday off, so was not there. Kind of glad I did not witness the crash, but it was right in the vicinity of where I normally sit, and where surf35, his bride, and I were last year when they were my guests at the event.
muzik,
To save skuzzy a lot of work, and because you are obviously not worth the ink to respond to, I edited this part of this post.
Thank you for your input into this, but your "80 frkn years old" factoid is wrong. Jimmy was a mere youth of 74.
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Any sane person in the world would do anything they could to avoid going into the crowd. As a matter of fact anyone's first reaction would be to pull out of that dive for self preservation. Either way, what he did was not heroic, it was his obligation.
This is what I was just about to say, most people would try to pull up from a nose dive straight into the ground. Not saying he is to blame as it was a mechanical error (broken trim tab), but yeah...
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See Rule #4
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sux not like there are plenty of 51's left.
Yes. That's the tragedy here. A P-51 was lost.......... :(
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We also lost at least 3 people, which are alot harder to replace. The Mustang is the most popular warbird still
flying, with about 150 left last time I checked. Reno racers may have started as P-51s, but they little resemble the
originals now.
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<snip>
Hero? No! Geriatric glory hound, yes!
Yes. That's the tragedy here. A P-51 was lost.......... :(
Both those beg a response but I'll stick with "no Comment."
And for olds442, and Acidrain... http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,320371.0.html .
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second plane crash in just two days. This time a T-28 Trojan
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2011/09/plane-crashes-during-air-show-in-w-va--66685.html
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We also lost at least 3 people, which are alot harder to replace. The Mustang is the most popular warbird still
flying, with about 150 left last time I checked. Reno racers may have started as P-51s, but they little resemble the
originals now.
It's up to 9 now according to ABC. I was reading somewhere that they had recently done a lot of modifications to the plane prior to this years race which included narrowing the wings among other things. Hopefully, none of the changes were a direct result in the crash.
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Not worth the ink or not worth the embarrassment? Tell it like it is smart ass. Wise choice not sticking your neck out there.
:rolleyes:
Ink. The embarrassment is all yours. Watch your mouth.
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Any sane person in the world would do anything they could to avoid going into the crowd. As a matter of fact anyone's first reaction would be to pull out of that dive for self preservation. Either way, what he did was not heroic, it was his obligation.
As a matter of fact, his judgement shows a decidedly opposite personality. He was 80 frkn years old and should not have been flying over crowds of people. If he has the money and wants to push his limits, there are millions of places in the world to get his kicks without putting others at danger but he apparently chose to selfishly participate in a sport that all conventional wisdom says he is too old for at the risk of the people he just killed.
Hero? No! Geriatric glory hound, yes!
Given the obvious evidence of mechanical failure, you're disgusting.
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Muzik,
You're an idiot. Period...!
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Given the obvious evidence of mechanical failure, you're disgusting.
+1
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Muzik,
That 74 year old had to pass the same medical exam every year as a 17 yr old to continue flying. Why should he be denied based only on his age and no medical facts? Bob Hannah was 41 in 1998 when he lost conscientiousness in Voodoo Chili from the same mechanical failure, link (http://www.warbird.com/voodoo.html) was he too old as well? :rolleyes: Even ATP pilots are allowed to fly till they are 65.
As for Jimmy pulling to avoid the grandstand, it's a nice feel good story, but all of the evidence so far suggests we was in G-LOC and slumped over the stick.
RIP :salute
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Any sane person in the world would do anything they could to avoid going into the crowd. As a matter of fact anyone's first reaction would be to pull out of that dive for self preservation. Either way, what he did was not heroic, it was his obligation.
As a matter of fact, his judgement shows a decidedly opposite personality. He was 80 frkn years old and should not have been flying over crowds of people. If he has the money and wants to push his limits, there are millions of places in the world to get his kicks without putting others at danger but he apparently chose to selfishly participate in a sport that all conventional wisdom says he is too old for at the risk of the people he just killed.
Hero? No! Geriatric glory hound, yes!
:rolleyes:
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Any sane person in the world would do anything they could to avoid going into the crowd. As a matter of fact anyone's first reaction would be to pull out of that dive for self preservation. Either way, what he did was not heroic, it was his obligation.
As a matter of fact, his judgement shows a decidedly opposite personality. He was 80 frkn years old and should not have been flying over crowds of people. If he has the money and wants to push his limits, there are millions of places in the world to get his kicks without putting others at danger but he apparently chose to selfishly participate in a sport that all conventional wisdom says he is too old for at the risk of the people he just killed.
Hero? No! Geriatric glory hound, yes!
I have to kinda agree... 70+ year old people should not be pulling Gs near crowds.
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I have to kinda agree... 70+ year old people should not be pulling Gs near crowds.
I don't think you understand the situation. His age has NO RELEVANCE whatsoever to this accident, it was a mechanical failure, leading to 10+ Gs and unconsciousness. As I already pointed out this guy (http://www.warbird.com/hannah1.jpg) at 41 suffered G-LOC and didn't wake up till he was at 9,000 ft from the same failure. If you where in his seat you'd have been out like a light as well. I'd wager that Jimmy at 74 was in a lot better shape then many pilots are at 40, 50 or 60.
On what ground would you deny him the opportunity to fly? What medical condition does he have that would preclude it? I'll tell you what, NONE. Because if he did, he would not have passed his last medical and his license would be yanked.
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I think the risk lies in the attendance of the event, not the age of the pilot. You have a few tons of aircraft flying over your head , racing, and stuff happens. If you choose a ringside seat, you take the risk and are saying I want to be here.
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As hard is it is to refrain from commenting on the people who have judged this man's motives, intentions
and character without so much as ever meeting, much less knowing him... I will do so...
I will say this. I grew-up and still live in the same town Jimmy Leeward called home. I have had the
occasion to meet both he and his wife Bette several times. Mr. Leeward was an outstanding pilot who
gave alot to this community. He held safety in the highest reguard and nothing other than a pure mechanical
failure caused this tragedy.
As concious as I knew he was about safety and knowing that this tragedy cost the lives of several others,
it can be only literally ripping the heart of of those he left behind. The worst thing that he could have ever wanted to
happen and worked so hard to avoid...... did....
Fair skies Mr. Leeward... May your family and the ones of those hurt or killed in this accident find peace one day
and may those that judge you find forgiveness...
<S>...
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Very elequantly said, BigB. :salute
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Any sane person in the world would do anything they could to avoid going into the crowd. As a matter of fact anyone's first reaction would be to pull out of that dive for self preservation. Either way, what he did was not heroic, it was his obligation.
As a matter of fact, his judgement shows a decidedly opposite personality. He was 80 frkn years old and should not have been flying over crowds of people. If he has the money and wants to push his limits, there are millions of places in the world to get his kicks without putting others at danger but he apparently chose to selfishly participate in a sport that all conventional wisdom says he is too old for at the risk of the people he just killed.
Hero? No! Geriatric glory hound, yes!
"As a matter of fact anyone's first reaction would be to pull out of that dive for self preservation". This is known to be false. AS with your other false conclusions you are using logical fallacies called a false dichotomy. All i have to do is remove myself from your conclusion. "My first reaction would be to save others lives even if it cost my own." While others may wish to save them selves from the ban hammer or think your not worth a reply. I sir stand to challenge your logical fallacies and YOUR saneness.
I stand ready!!!!
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As hard is it is to refrain from commenting on the people who have judged this man's motives, intentions
and character without so much as ever meeting, much less knowing him... I will do so...
I will say this. I grew-up and still live in the same town Jimmy Leeward called home. I have had the
occasion to meet both he and his wife Bette several times. Mr. Leeward was an outstanding pilot who
gave alot to this community. He held safety in the highest reguard and nothing other than a pure mechanical
failure caused this tragedy.
As concious as I knew he was about safety and knowing that this tragedy cost the lives of several others,
it can be only literally ripping the heart of of those he left behind. The worst thing that he could have ever wanted to
happen and worked so hard to avoid...... did....
Fair skies Mr. Leeward... May your family and the ones of those hurt or killed in this accident find peace one day
and may those that judge you find forgiveness...
<S>...
this
If you can't say something nice shut up. It's not that hard NOT to type.
In
/thread
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I don't think you understand the situation. His age has NO RELEVANCE whatsoever to this accident, it was a mechanical failure, leading to 10+ Gs and unconsciousness.
Considering that no report for the accident has been filed yet, how can you be so sure that age played no role in it? It was likely mechanical failure as has been speculated due to the video & photo evidence but pilot error is the leading cause of most aircraft crashes and until the accident report has an official stamp on it no one can officially say yey, ney or maybe.
Simple fact is age is certainly an issue in most professional sports auto sports. There is a reason we don't see 70 year old guys driving F-1 cars or in NASCAR, because regardless of pilot capabilities the human body at 70 is not what it was at 20. I'm sure the guy was very fit and quite capable of a pilot, but it's also very reasonable to question age in this and certainly the official investigators will be looking into that as well.
Until the report is filed, claiming age was an issue is just as silly as claiming it wasn't.
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I think the risk lies in the attendance of the event, not the age of the pilot. You have a few tons of aircraft flying over your head , racing, and stuff happens. If you choose a ringside seat, you take the risk and are saying I want to be here.
Normally, there is no risk to sitting in those seats at the races, as they are 500 yards offset from the front stretch of the course. Matter of fact, the runway that runs parallel to the stands is the boundary of the course. Pilots aren't allowed to cross it. This was a freak accident that couldn't have been anticipated. No more dangerous than watching the Blues or Thunderbirds...
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muzik please enlighten us as to your background in aviation.
Oh that's right, you don't have one. You're just another limp dick on the Internet.
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We seem to be loosing alot of WW2 birds recently... :cry :cry :cry
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Muzik,
You're an idiot. Period...!
+1
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Given the obvious evidence of mechanical failure, you're disgusting.
If you don't mind my asking sir, what mechanical failure?
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If you don't my asking sir, what mechanical failure?
Trim tab came off.
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Trim tab came off.
And that should make aircraft uncontrollable?
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And that should make aircraft uncontrollable?
Depending on the speed and aero setup, oh yea it could, and in a hurry too. Especially if the stick is ripped out of the pilot's hand subjecting him to enough Gs to cause GLOC. Now he's gotta wake up first, figure out where he is, who he is, and why that big brown thing covered with people and trees is rushing up at him.
Not saying that's what happened, but trim malfunctions can be a big problem. The T-37 had a speed restriction of 275kts even thought the aircraft was placarded for over 300, in part because full nose down trim at over 200 kts would give somewhere around 200 lbs of forward stick force, and full up trim at over 250 would instantaneously fail the horizontal stab if the stick was released (or was jerked out of the pilot's hand). I know one guy who punched out of a T-37 in part due to being unable to control the plane in a vertical dive with full nose-down trim.
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And that should make aircraft uncontrollable?
In an aircraft with a fixed horizontal stabilizer traveling in excess of 400 knots, yes. The aircraft will fly to its "trimmed" condition which without the tab is going to be closer to 120-150 knots. This will result in stick forces requiring 200-225lbs per inch nose up as the aircraft hunts for the speed. Aircraft with movable horizontal stabilizers or simply with jammed trim controls will want to remain trimmed for the speed at which trim control was lost.
Because of this tremendous nose up pitch force, G forces in excess of 10G will be experienced (evidenced by the photographs showing the tailwheel extending due to the G force, which will occur around 9G in a Mustang) which will catch any airman off guard. Because their body isn't prepared for the instant onset of G forces, the blood immediately leaves their upper body and a blackout will ensue in about a second. Another factor to consider is even if you were somehow to retain consciousness the G Forces will be pushing you down and forward in the cockpit because the aircraft is also decelerating to get to the neutral trim speed roughly 300 knots below what it's currently flying at.
In other words, the trim tab in a Mustang goes at high speed, the pilot blacks out and you either have a fortunate recoverable situation such as Voodoo in the 1990s or you crash without ever knowing what happened, as likely happened in this case.
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Loss or partial loss of a trim tab can also lead to control surface flutter. But that is often clearly audible to spectators as a loud buzzing and a bang, and may result in the control surface being ripped completely off of the plane well before the crash. It doesn't sound like that is what happened here.
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Yes. That's the tragedy here. A P-51 was lost.......... :(
No. That is not the tragedy here. Lives were lost. An airplane is just a material possession. Old or new it is JUST a plane.
Oh, muzak is an idiot.
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A very very sad :pray
Considering that no report for the accident has been filed yet, how can you be so sure that age played no role in it? It was likely mechanical failure as has been speculated due to the video & photo evidence but pilot error is the leading cause of most aircraft crashes and until the accident report has an official stamp on it no one can officially say yey, ney or maybe.
Simple fact is age is certainly an issue in most professional sports auto sports. There is a reason we don't see 70 year old guys driving F-1 cars or in NASCAR, because regardless of pilot capabilities the human body at 70 is not what it was at 20. I'm sure the guy was very fit and quite capable of a pilot, but it's also very reasonable to question age in this and certainly the official investigators will be looking into that as well.
Until the report is filed, claiming age was an issue is just as silly as claiming it wasn't.
Well said.
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To Eagle, Golfer, and Widewing,
Thanks for all of the information. While I hate that I learned it due to something as bad as this incident I am a bit of an information junkie and you three have really helped me understand potential causes to this accident.
:salute
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I had a suspicion that i knew nothing about aviation , except for what could learn from flying cartoon planes. However after reading your replies (thank you gentlemen), I'm certain that i know nothing. Having said that, not being a pilot and posting judgmental comments is just not wise.
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I had a suspicion that i knew nothing about aviation , except for what could learn from flying cartoon planes. However after reading your replies (thank you gentlemen), I'm certain that i know nothing. Having said that, not being a pilot and posting judgmental comments is just not wise.
Meant as a compliment, I salute you for the above post. Many would not say that aloud.
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http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10720171/tm.htm (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10720171/tm.htm)
A little more intelligent discussion for the most part than some posts here.
Note the pictures ( very good quality) showing:
1. the missing trim tab.
2. pilot not visible in cockpit.
3. extended tail wheel (due to mechanical failure of up-lock due to g-load?)
Check out the video posted by Corsair Jock on page 3. Shows pretty much the entire event from initial climb to impact, not just the brief blurs you get in the other vids.
BTW The pilots are instructed in the event of any emergency to climb and turn left (into the race infield).
Based upon the afore mentioned experience years ago from a trim tab faliure, it would seem that a similar chain of events happened, but with the roll, an entirely different outcome.
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Both those beg a response but I'll stick with "no Comment."
My quote was being very sarcastic. Probably should have chosen a better emote.
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And that should make aircraft uncontrollable?
There is a reason that most modern planes that fly at those kind of speeds or greater have flying tails and/or hydraulic controls.
When that trim tab came off the aero would cause the elevator to deflect to a neutral position. But at speeds of near or over 500 knots a neutral elevator means climbing very fast, since lots of down elevator is required to counter the lift at those speeds. So basically when it came off, he went from level flight to a 10G pitch up and deceleration instantly, he suffers GLOC, the force is great enough to drop the tailwheel, the plane rolls whether from torque or inadvertently as he's unconscious slumped at the controls, and augers.
Of course the NTSB investigation could say something different, but at this point considering the photo evidence it seems pretty obvious. Also considering that the same failure, on a similar airframe, caused nearly the same accident with Bob Hannah in Voodoo Chile in 1998, he was lucky in that the plane continued to climb while he was unconscious though.
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http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10720171/tm.htm (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10720171/tm.htm)
A little more intelligent discussion for the most part than some posts here.
Note the pictures ( very good quality) showing:
1. the missing trim tab.
2. pilot not visible in cockpit.
3. extended tail wheel (due to mechanical failure of up-lock due to g-load?)
Check out the video posted by Corsair Jock on page 3. Shows pretty much the entire event from initial climb to impact, not just the brief blurs you get in the other vids.
BTW The pilots are instructed in the event of any emergency to climb and turn left (into the race infield).
Based upon the afore mentioned experience years ago from a trim tab faliure, it would seem that a similar chain of events happened, but with the roll, an entirely different outcome.
When watching at that complete vid of the crash tailwheel only came out after he was already inverted and pointed into the ground. Seems like he started a climb out but the plane inverted and it sent him straight into the ground. At the angle of the plane in that video he was probably blacked out by the time the plane inverted which is when the tail wheel came out.
Seems like at that point the plane just did what it was going to do and even if he wasn't blacked out, there wasn't anything he was going to do to stop it. Will be interesting to see what the report says.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GftHiruJAPc
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To Eagle, Golfer, and Widewing,
Thanks for all of the information. While I hate that I learned it due to something as bad as this incident I am a bit of an information junkie and you three have really helped me understand potential causes to this accident.
:salute
I completely agree.
When I heard about the crash I knew my first source was going to be this site.
Thank you guys for offering your knowledge here. It's always appreciated. :salute
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Muzik,
That 74 year old had to pass the same medical exam every year as a 17 yr old to continue flying.
Actually, folks over 40 have a slightly more detailed medical exam done....EKG is added to the mix.
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Considering that no report for the accident has been filed yet, how can you be so sure that age played no role in it? It was likely mechanical failure as has been speculated due to the video & photo evidence but pilot error is the leading cause of most aircraft crashes and until the accident report has an official stamp on it no one can officially say yey, ney or maybe.
Simple fact is age is certainly an issue in most professional sports auto sports. There is a reason we don't see 70 year old guys driving F-1 cars or in NASCAR, because regardless of pilot capabilities the human body at 70 is not what it was at 20. I'm sure the guy was very fit and quite capable of a pilot, but it's also very reasonable to question age in this and certainly the official investigators will be looking into that as well.
Until the report is filed, claiming age was an issue is just as silly as claiming it wasn't.
Bottom line, the FAA has set no maximum age limit for private pilots. Therefore, age is not an issue. If there are any Centenarians out there who could pass the medical, they could in theory go fly.
Edited for simplicity
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That is correct saggs.
Many years ago I was at a boat race when the driver of a 280 hydro went straight at the first turn. He was run over by another boat but was already dead from a massive heart attack. The driver was age 25.
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And that should make aircraft uncontrollable?
offtopic here, but why doesnt that happen in ah?
semp
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offtopic here, but why doesnt that happen in ah?
semp
I'm obviously not an HTC rep, but...
Because it's a game. Plus different planes behave differently after suffering damage, and there isn't much flight test data available for what happens when various pieces get shot or ripped off, so you get a single very nice flight model for a lot of planes that were very dissimilar in real life.
Airfoil differences are one huge area that have to be dealt with by HTC when modelling each plane. Just the simple differences between, for example, the elliptical spit wing, the fat hurricane wing, and the supercritical P-51 wing, lead to hugely different flight characteristics in RL. Each airfoil is going to behave differently to various levels of damage or airflow disruption, and HTC has done a ton of work figuring out a reasonable response to various types of damage that keep the game challenging but fun.
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That is correct saggs.
Many years ago I was at a boat race when the driver of a 280 hydro went straight at the first turn. He was run over by another boat but was already dead from a massive heart attack. The driver was age 25.
Yes and teenagers fall over dead on football fields. Yet the odds of a 25 y/o dying from a stroke or heart attack are likely just a tad bit lower than someone whom is 74 years old.
You can play the argument game all day long, but you are only fooling yourself by trying to convince anyone that someone at age 74 shouldn't be under a bit more scrutiny, than say a 25 or 30 y/o when it comes to competing in such a sport. Specially when others lives are also at risk.
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Yes and teenagers fall over dead on football fields. Yet the odds of a 25 y/o dying from a stroke or heart attack are likely just a tad bit lower than someone whom is 74 years old.
You can play the argument game all day long, but you are only fooling yourself by trying to convince anyone that someone at age 74 shouldn't be under a bit more scrutiny, than say a 25 or 30 y/o when it comes to competing in such a sport. Specially when others lives are also at risk.
Of course he is going to be under closer scrutiny, and he was (as colmbo pointed out the medical is stricter for older folks) and he passed said scrutiny. Unless you're going to claim that the MD who did his last medical faked it, and if that's true then that doctor is done. I'm sure the NTSB will look into that as well.
Like I said, unless the FAA changes it's rules, you cannot ground a private pilot based only on their age.
Others lives are at risk anytime anybody goes flying, or driving for that matter, should we not allow 74 yr olds to drive either, heck they might plow into an elementary school playground. Maybe they should raise the minimum pilot age too, I know lots of 17yr olds I don't think are mature enough to handle an airplane. I could think of excuses for why almost anybody of any age could be a dangerous flyer, young people are immature and lack experience, middle age people are having a mid-life crisis and are reckless, old people aren't as strong and forgetful... ...
As has been pointed out several times, he was subjected to 9+Gs (we know that is what is needed to drop the tailwheel) which in 1998, from the same failure, also knocked out a pilot of 41 yrs old, does that mean 41 is too old to compete as well?
Life involves risk, that's just the way it is. A life without risk would be awfully boring. Maybe you'll be content to just sit in your rocker yelling at kids on your grass in your twilight years, I would rather still be active though, and almost all activities involve some level of risk.
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I are 17 year old pilot flies gud.
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As hard is it is to refrain from commenting on the people who have judged this man's motives, intentions
and character without so much as ever meeting, much less knowing him... I will do so...
I will say this. I grew-up and still live in the same town Jimmy Leeward called home. I have had the
occasion to meet both he and his wife Bette several times. Mr. Leeward was an outstanding pilot who
gave alot to this community. He held safety in the highest reguard and nothing other than a pure mechanical
failure caused this tragedy.
As concious as I knew he was about safety and knowing that this tragedy cost the lives of several others,
it can be only literally ripping the heart of of those he left behind. The worst thing that he could have ever wanted to
happen and worked so hard to avoid...... did....
Fair skies Mr. Leeward... May your family and the ones of those hurt or killed in this accident find peace one day
and may those that judge you find forgiveness...
<S>...
probably about the only worthwhile post in this entire thread. the rest is beyond disgusting.
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Any sane person in the world would do anything they could to avoid going into the crowd. As a matter of fact anyone's first reaction would be to pull out of that dive for self preservation. Either way, what he did was not heroic, it was his obligation.
As a matter of fact, his judgement shows a decidedly opposite personality. He was 80 frkn years old and should not have been flying over crowds of people. If he has the money and wants to push his limits, there are millions of places in the world to get his kicks without putting others at danger but he apparently chose to selfishly participate in a sport that all conventional wisdom says he is too old for at the risk of the people he just killed.
Hero? No! Geriatric glory hound, yes!
:aok I like the news making every pilot a hero for trying to avoid buildings and landing in a corn field instead. Well, duh! Given a choice, I am shooting for the corn field also. Every one is a hero now days even if we don't even know if they had control.
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:aok I like the news making every pilot a hero for trying to avoid buildings and landing in a corn field instead. Well, duh! Given a choice, I am shooting for the corn field also. Every one is a hero now days even if we don't even know if they had control.
Well duh, some might have bailed out to save themselves. Of course it sounds like he might have been blacked out when he crashed.
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Well duh, some might have bailed out to save themselves. Of course it sounds like he might have been blacked out when he crashed.
Bail out from a Cessna? Right lol. Just a couple of weeks ago WGN Chicago was praising a pilot for crash landing his Cessna into the corn fields instead of some houses that you could barely see in the horizon. Not saying that some don't risk their lives to avoid hitting people. But for most of them, the best chances for survival are when avoiding buildings and going for an empty field. Just saying that the hero title is given a little too easily now days.
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Bail out from a Cessna? Right lol. Just a couple of weeks ago WGN Chicago was praising a pilot for crash landing his Cessna into the corn fields instead of some houses that you could barely see in the horizon. Not saying that some don't risk their lives to avoid hitting people. But for most of them, the best chances for survival are when avoiding buildings and going for an empty field. Just saying that the hero title is given a little too easily now days.
Well, given that the media doesn't know crap about aviation, its just their ignorance and haste to "make a story" that causes it.
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Well, given that the media doesn't know crap about aviation, its just their ignorance and haste to "make a story" that causes it.
and this in turn prejudices uninformed people against such things.
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Of course he is going to be under closer scrutiny, and he was (as colmbo pointed out the medical is stricter for older folks) and he passed said scrutiny. Unless you're going to claim that the MD who did his last medical faked it, and if that's true then that doctor is done. I'm sure the NTSB will look into that as well.
Like I said, unless the FAA changes it's rules, you cannot ground a private pilot based only on their age.
Others lives are at risk anytime anybody goes flying, or driving for that matter, should we not allow 74 yr olds to drive either, heck they might plow into an elementary school playground. Maybe they should raise the minimum pilot age too, I know lots of 17yr olds I don't think are mature enough to handle an airplane. I could think of excuses for why almost anybody of any age could be a dangerous flyer, young people are immature and lack experience, middle age people are having a mid-life crisis and are reckless, old people aren't as strong and forgetful... ...
As has been pointed out several times, he was subjected to 9+Gs (we know that is what is needed to drop the tailwheel) which in 1998, from the same failure, also knocked out a pilot of 41 yrs old, does that mean 41 is too old to compete as well?
Life involves risk, that's just the way it is. A life without risk would be awfully boring. Maybe you'll be content to just sit in your rocker yelling at kids on your grass in your twilight years, I would rather still be active though, and almost all activities involve some level of risk.
I used to race cars as a hobby, so I understand the stress the human body can be put under. It's a fun and expensive thing to do but the first thing that should always be on any driver's or pilot's mind is are they a risk to others. I don't care what anyone says, but your reactions are not the same as you get older nor can your body take the same kind of abuse.
Even though it's fun as hell and exciting, I really don't think I'll be climbing into a race car at age 74 even if I feel capable of doing so. Simply because I know that other peoples lives are at risk and I wouldn't want cause others harm by not being up to par physically or even mentally.
I simply think at that age he shouldn't of been competing in this kind of event, regardless if it had anything to do with the crash or not. It's one thing to hop in a car or airplane and go for a drive or a flight (still risky enough for some 70+ers) but it's a hell of a lot more stress on the body to compete in a racing event.
Also I'd hope there was more to competing in an event than just having a FAA pilot's license. I know with my racing we had to pass on track drivers tests and well as physical. To be honest though IMO the basic physical that we had to take could have easily been passed by anyone in decent shape. IMO it's really wasn't enough of a test it was just a Doc saying sure you probably arent gonna drop dead tomorrow and you can see straight.
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Mechanical failures don't discriminate. The pilot could have been 16 - 90. At that altitude and speed, it doesn't matter.
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I simply think at that age he shouldn't of been competing in this kind of event, regardless if it had anything to do with the crash or not. It's one thing to hop in a car or airplane and go for a drive or a flight (still risky enough for some 70+ers) but it's a hell of a lot more stress on the body to compete in a racing event.
Also I'd hope there was more to competing in an event than just having a FAA pilot's license. I know with my racing we had to pass on track drivers tests and well as physical. To be honest though IMO the basic physical that we had to take could have easily been passed by anyone in decent shape. IMO it's really wasn't enough of a test it was just a Doc saying sure you probably arent gonna drop dead tomorrow and you can see straight.
So, if he has a 1st class medical, and is otherwise medically qualified to pilot a high performance aircraft, he shouldn't be in the race? What's the magic age? 45? 50? Believe you me, they've been running the races for a very long time and they are fully aware of who's dangerous and who's not. There is no way RARA would have let him fly in the race had they had the slightest concern about his fitness as a race pilot.
Second, do some research on RARA (Reno Air Racing Association) and look at all the qualifications a pilot has to complete in order to fly there. This is not some fly-by-night lash-up just putting planes in the air. There are very stringent pilot training and qualifications required for competition. They are very concerned about safety--of the pilots and the spectators. The seating and course is designed to prevent these types of accidents. Had the mechanical failure not occurred when it did, and the freakishly random circumstances of the planes location when the event occurred, the only casualty would have been the pilot.
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The last first class medical I had featured a stress test and a ekg machine.
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I used to race cars as a hobby, so I understand the stress the human body can be put under. It's a fun and expensive thing to do but the first thing that should always be on any driver's or pilot's mind is are they a risk to others. I don't care what anyone says, but your reactions are not the same as you get older nor can your body take the same kind of abuse.
Even though it's fun as hell and exciting, I really don't think I'll be climbing into a race car at age 74 even if I feel capable of doing so. Simply because I know that other peoples lives are at risk and I wouldn't want cause others harm by not being up to par physically or even mentally.
I simply think at that age he shouldn't of been competing in this kind of event, regardless if it had anything to do with the crash or not. It's one thing to hop in a car or airplane and go for a drive or a flight (still risky enough for some 70+ers) but it's a hell of a lot more stress on the body to compete in a racing event.
Also I'd hope there was more to competing in an event than just having a FAA pilot's license. I know with my racing we had to pass on track drivers tests and well as physical. To be honest though IMO the basic physical that we had to take could have easily been passed by anyone in decent shape. IMO it's really wasn't enough of a test it was just a Doc saying sure you probably arent gonna drop dead tomorrow and you can see straight.
better a 74 year old, with 35 years of experience, than a 25 year old with 0 years of experience, eh/? age wasn't a factor.
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better a 74 year old, with 35 years of experience, than a 25 year old with 0 years of experience, eh/? age wasn't a factor.
We like to think so, as we get older but we don;t have the reflexes of a 20 year old nor can our body take the punishment a 20 year old can. I don't know what happened but if the problem was that he blacked out after the malfunction, maybe a 25 year old wouldn't have. It is all speculation anyway but some 74 year olds should not even be driving, no matter how many years experience they have. Not saying that applies to him. Just saying that experience does not make up for everything.
In either case, millions of people are dieing every day. This is some how sadder because it involved some equipment? Nice :aok
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We like to think so, as we get older but we don;t have the reflexes of a 20 year old nor can our body take the punishment a 20 year old can. I don't know what happened but if the problem was that he blacked out after the malfunction, maybe a 25 year old wouldn't have. It is all speculation anyway but some 74 year olds should not even be driving, no matter how many years experience they have. Not saying that applies to him. Just saying that experience does not make up for everything.
In either case, millions of people are dieing every day. This is some how sadder because it involved some equipment? Nice :aok
You must be talking about a 20 year old that is in really good shape.
There are a lot of older folks who can smoke most younger folks.
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You must be talking about a 20 year old that is in really good shape.
There are a lot of older folks who can smoke most younger folks.
that was/is my point, although i'm trying not to be argumentative in this. just using a rather simple example, i know my 49 year old bellybutton can smoke about 95% of the 20 year olds out there on the tree. this is fact, as i've done it many many times at the track.
so much for slower reflexes.
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that was/is my point, although i'm trying not to be argumentative in this. just using a rather simple example, i know my 49 year old bellybutton can smoke about 95% of the 20 year olds out there on the tree. this is fact, as i've done it many many times at the track.
so much for slower reflexes.
Being young in the US today means a one in three chance of being obese. Computer games and the internet they say....... My advice to old people, stay off the internet and get rid of those couch potato Xbox thingys.
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Being young in the US today means a one in three chance of being obese. Computer games and the internet they say....... My advice to old people, stay off the internet and get rid of those couch potato Xbox thingys.
people like me will never be fat. ever. the only time i've gained weight since high school, was when i started lifting weights. i went from 140(yea, i was only 140 when i graduated) to 175. when i stopped lifting, i dropped to around 160 or so. that was 20-some years ago. i'm still 163.
so that all being said, what does your statement have to do with anything in this thread?
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Bahh I never got on the computer. :D
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We like to think so, as we get older but we don;t have the reflexes of a 20 year old nor can our body take the punishment a 20 year old can. I don't know what happened but if the problem was that he blacked out after the malfunction, maybe a 25 year old wouldn't have. It is all speculation anyway but some 74 year olds should not even be driving, no matter how many years experience they have. Not saying that applies to him. Just saying that experience does not make up for everything.
In either case, millions of people are dieing every day. This is some how sadder because it involved some equipment? Nice :aok
I dont know bro I am 42......my reflexes are faster now then they ever been, and when I was a kid they were blistering, I know its a big difference between 42 and 75, but if the guy has been doing this for many years I dont see it as an issue, I really don't think age had anything to do with this.
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Bob Hanna at 40 was in better shape than 99% of the population and an elite level athlete but he still blacked out when he experienced something similar.
From the reports about the presence of a data acquisition system and cameras that use memory cards, It's possible that they used the AIM evo4 with smarty cam option which is common on high end race cars or planes and should yield the data and video on a fingernail sized memory card.
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that was/is my point, although i'm trying not to be argumentative in this. just using a rather simple example, i know my 49 year old bellybutton can smoke about 95% of the 20 year olds out there on the tree. this is fact, as i've done it many many times at the track.
so much for slower reflexes.
:rofl Common CAP. Did your car lose a major part and you had to respond as fast as possible while the 20 year old lost the same part in the same situation and did not respond as fast? What are you comparing here? The speed of your car or your experience? Yes, experience is a tremendous tool in everything but it will not make up for everything. Next time you smoke a 20 year old try doing it pulling Gs that would black you out. Then you can see if your experience will be of any help. Don;t compare the best of the old with the worst of the young just to make an argument. 49 is not the same as 75 BTW.
I played basket ball for so long I can see the effects every year has on me. Experience helps a lot but when the 20s start running all I can do is watch lol. If experience was everything, football players would be great in their 50s and the best quarterbacks would be in their 70 :lol.
Experience is a tremendous weapon, but it does not make up for everything. Some time strength is what makes the difference. Now, if you can combine the two, you end up with the guys between 25 and 35. There is a reason most athletes reach their prime in that age range.
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broke the wheelie bars on launch. the thing was on its way to being on the bumper......and would've been without quick reflexes.
lost oil pressure(at 131mph). would've lost the entire engine, without quick reflexes.
lost brakes. would've created a nice little pile up without quick reflexes.
reflexes only get slower, if you allow them to get slower.
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broke the wheelie bars on launch. the thing was on its way to being on the bumper......and would've been without quick reflexes.
lost oil pressure(at 131mph). would've lost the entire engine, without quick reflexes.
lost brakes. would've created a nice little pile up without quick reflexes.
reflexes only get slower, if you allow them to get slower.
You are missing the point.
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You are missing the point.
no i'm not. people are trying to allude that his reflexes may have beenan issue(or at least that's what i think is going on). i think, that as golfer(i think), and others have said......no one in that particular situation would have saved that aircraft. and using voodoo's happening isn't this same exact thing.
none of us are gonna know for sure till the ntsb gets finished.
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If he experienced 10 Gs from that pullup, it wouldn't have mattered if Bruce Jenner in his prime was in the cockpit--he's blacking out and losing control of the aircraft...
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If he experienced 10 Gs from that pullup, it wouldn't have mattered if Bruce Jenner in his prime was in the cockpit--he's blacking out and losing control of the aircraft...
that's what others have said...and those that have, i tend to think know enough to know what they're talking about, more than the rest of us.
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no i'm not. people are trying to allude that his reflexes may have beenan issue(or at least that's what i think is going on). i think, that as golfer(i think), and others have said......no one in that particular situation would have saved that aircraft. and using voodoo's happening isn't this same exact thing.
none of us are gonna know for sure till the ntsb gets finished.
Are you answering to me or to them? Were we talking about young vs old? I though I was responding to your better a 74 year old with 35 years of experience than a 25 year old with 0. How did everything else get into our conversation? We were not even talking about this particular case.
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The thread is covering a lot of ground. Not just your conversation.
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The thread is covering a lot of ground. Not just your conversation.
The thread is. Me responding to CAP quoting him is only responding to him. I thought the same applied to everyone when their text is quoted.
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I don't think any of the current stunt pilots are experiencing 10g for anything longer than a second during abrupt direction changes such as snap rolls as the telemetry of routines found in videos rarely shows even 7 sustained G during loops.
I believe galloping ghost may have exceeded 10gs and held a pretty high G loading for at least 5 full seconds.
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Are you answering to me or to them? Were we talking about young vs old? I though I was responding to your better a 74 year old with 35 years of experience than a 25 year old with 0. How did everything else get into our conversation? We were not even talking about this particular case.
The age debate is only possible true. When used in an argument it is begging the question fallacy. It may not even apply in this case. I have not seen any quote of the pilots he was racing with. I would think they would make the best case for or again ts.
The conclusion may or may not be true. It has to be based on known to be true. In this kind of inductive arguemnt both posistions are knonw to be true at differant times.. I personaly would not get my panties in a wad over this kind of arguemnt. just saying.
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The age debate is only possible true. When used in an argument it is begging the question fallacy. It may not even apply in this case.
Yep. Talking in general. Not specifically to the pilot. Even though I do think that he could not have been in a better shape than a 25 year old pilot ( and please don;t pick the worst possible example of a 25 year old just to make a point), that fact may be irrelevant to the accident.
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If he experienced 10 Gs from that pullup, it wouldn't have mattered if Bruce Jenner in his prime was in the cockpit--he's blacking out and losing control of the aircraft...
This is certainly true. There is a caveat, though... Without exception, the ability of the heart and arteries to flow a volume of blood decreases with age as plaque accumulates. This is a normal byproduct of aging.
However, a reduction in blood flow, even slight, can add critical seconds to GLOC recovery time.
I'm thinking that they may want to have a semi-annual Thallium Stress Test as a requirement for race pilots over 60 years of age. It's easy (I've had one) and can reveal a great deal about one's cardiovascular health and fitness.
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I don't think any of the current stunt pilots are experiencing 10g for anything longer than a second during abrupt direction changes such as snap rolls as the telemetry of routines found in videos rarely shows even 7 sustained G during loops.
I believe galloping ghost may have exceeded 10gs and held a pretty high G loading for at least 5 full seconds.
Red Bull racers hit 10+ Gs for the duration of some of their turns. I've seen a few clips of those guys gray or black out during turns, resulting in bounces. None of the clips I saw resulted in fatalities but I'm sure that there have been some. The point being that the Red Bull racing pilots have to pull 10+ Gs during several entire turns to be competitive, so they do. And some GLOC or gray out.
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Red Bull racers hit 10+ Gs for the duration of some of their turns. I've seen a few clips of those guys gray or black out during turns, resulting in bounces. None of the clips I saw resulted in fatalities but I'm sure that there have been some. The point being that the Red Bull racing pilots have to pull 10+ Gs during several entire turns to be competitive, so they do. And some GLOC or gray out.
they wear pressure suits. they also prepare for them.
http://www.redbullairrace.com/cs/Satellite/en_air/Article/Pilots-Praise-New-G-Race-Suit-021242759131068
i didn't know that till i saw it on one of those stupid(or not so stupid) speed channel shows.
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I read this on another forum......
"A couple of us noticed what we thought was a pitch wobble with GG as it banked down into the "Valley of Speed", that hadn't been there the prior 2 laps. I noticed it but said nothing, figuring I didn't know enough to comment. There were 2 guys next to me, both pilots. One said " did you see Ghost has the shakes" and the other guy said "Sure did". Then it happened. We'll never know, as I am not sure if anyone was shooting video at that moment from our location. We were packed quickly into buses right after it happened and our only concern at that point was what the situation in the stands was."
And another....
"I got an email from Bob Martin today. He said, as captain of pylon 1, he was standing about 500 feet from the impact site. He said that the trim tab did partially depart, causing a violent pitch up. He is sure that the g-force caused Jimmy to black out, which would explain the roll over with no throttle change or course change. Bob also said that the box seats were virtually empty compared to how they would have been on Saturday and Sunday."
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The we are kind of in agreement.
The difference in distance covered per second would be the biggest difference and the fact that the plane, and not the pilot, decided it would pull 10Gs meaning relaxed stick backforce during GLOC would not relieve the G loading which kept the pilot in GLOC for the duration.
That said, galloping ghost really did pull off an amazing rate of turn in excess of what we experience in aces high during that event.
Jimmy Leeward had also completely blown past Rare Bear which is no easy feat.
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Another thing to keep in mind with regard to g's is that there is a very large difference between when you are pulling the g's (and in control of it) and when they are exerted upon you by surprise. I flew at Air Combat USA many years ago. I was in great shape (playing ice hockey regularly) and was around 30 years old. At the end of the day, we came cruising back to base, and the instructor pilot slammed the plane into a 6-or-more g turn to bleed off speed without telling me he was going to do so, so I didn't tense up beforehand. I was blacked out sooner than I could react to stop it -- probably within a second or two.
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Apparently, Galloping Ghost had been measured in excess of 525 at minden a couple of weeks earlier and he had just blown past Rare Bear indicating he had made his move to the front to ensure he would be able to contest the Gold heat for overall gold victory.
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speed thrills and speed kills. always has and always will. :salute
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Red bull pilots wear G suits, and they are penalized it they pull 10 G's, I believe it is a 2second penalty.
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nvm.
Quoted a post and accidentally hit the post button.
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Red bull pilots wear G suits, and they are penalized it they pull 10 G's, I believe it is a 2second penalty.
Must be a new rule. The last few races I watched had the G meter tagging 10 repeatedly for all of the competitors. Maybe they put in the rule to try to avoid pilots blacking out. Sort of like restrictor plates or pit lane speed limits...
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Red bull pilots wear G suits, and they are penalized it they pull 10 G's, I believe it is a 2second penalty.
I believe the maximum Gs allowed is 12, not 10.
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Red bull pilots wear G suits, and they are penalized it they pull 10 G's, I believe it is a 2second penalty.
and their entry speed is limited to 250. they took this year off, due to the stalling incidents, in canada, australia, and i forget where the others were.
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Must be a new rule. The last few races I watched had the G meter tagging 10 repeatedly for all of the competitors. Maybe they put in the rule to try to avoid pilots blacking out. Sort of like restrictor plates or pit lane speed limits...
i think 2010 was the first year for the 10g rule, although i'm not sure. the televised races i had seen in 2010, i don't think i saw anyone go over 9.5.
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The thread is. Me responding to CAP quoting him is only responding to him. I thought the same applied to everyone when their text is quoted.
He's responding to everyone..... not just you.
Ask any first responder... they'll tell you. :P
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Yep. Talking in general. Not specifically to the pilot. Even though I do think that he could not have been in a better shape than a 25 year old pilot ( and please don;t pick the worst possible example of a 25 year old just to make a point), that fact may be irrelevant to the accident.
He does not need to be in better shape than a 25 year old.
You are talking general and specifically to the pilot. General includes all pilots including this pilot.
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He does not need to be in better shape than a 25 year old.
You are talking general and specifically to the pilot. General includes all pilots including this pilot.
OK guys, you are correct. A 75 year old is better than a 25 year old in pretty much everything (except turning off their blinkers :neener:)
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Age is irrelevant. He needs to be able to pass a certain field of tests to be "physically qualified" to fly. If he can pass them then he is qualified. If you think the tests are not physically demanding enough then argue that point, not his age, it's irrelevant due to its subjective nature.
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Must be a new rule. The last few races I watched had the G meter tagging 10 repeatedly for all of the competitors. Maybe they put in the rule to try to avoid pilots blacking out. Sort of like restrictor plates or pit lane speed limits...
I'd imagine knowing the move that's coming next helps in preparation for that kind of G load too. Safe and sad to say Jimmy Leeward wasn't expecting it when it hit.
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Age is irrelevant. He needs to be able to pass a certain field of tests to be "physically qualified" to fly. If he can pass them then he is qualified. If you think the tests are not physically demanding enough then argue that point, not his age, it's irrelevant due to its subjective nature.
Comparing 45 to 50 is subjective. 25 to 75 only a fool could think there is no difference. Passing a test means nothing. All of the old ladies that confused the break pedal with the gas did pass a test that said it was OK for them to drive into the local coffee shop. Don't forget that I am arguing the age in general and not specific to this incident or pilot. It was a response to CAP who said your reflexes are not the same at 70+ only if you let them.
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Comparing 45 to 50 is subjective. 25 to 75 only a fool could think there is no difference. Passing a test means nothing. All of the old ladies that confused the break pedal with the gas did pass a test that said it was OK for them to drive into the local coffee shop. Don't forget that I am arguing the age in general and not specific to this incident or pilot. It was a response to CAP who said your reflexes are not the same at 70+ only if you let them.
bolded....i have to agree here. and it's "brake" not "break" :devil
for reflexes, i simply stated from personal experience. i know i'm faster than 90% of those half my age.
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As its been said before in this thread, anyone, regardless of age or physical condition, would have blacked out from an instantaneous +11 G pullup.
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Comparing 45 to 50 is subjective. 25 to 75 only a fool could think there is no difference. Passing a test means nothing. All of the old ladies that confused the break pedal with the gas did pass a test that said it was OK for them to drive into the local coffee shop. Don't forget that I am arguing the age in general and not specific to this incident or pilot. It was a response to CAP who said your reflexes are not the same at 70+ only if you let them.
YOu cant argue general without including everyone in your group or you just defeat your own argument. Age is not the criteria I hate to be the one to tell you. Its amount of reflexes or x,y,z. A 25 year old would get rejected the same as a 26 year old or a 70 year old if they did have x qualification.
There are plenty of teenagers that passed the driving test that drive dads car thru the garage ..... :bhead
I dont care what the content is the context is in error. Its obvious that age does not properly address the issue.
Age = x is not known to be true. x=x is known to be true.
x is 70 and has slower reflexis than y that is 25. x is 70 therefore has slower reflexes than y that is 25
One is a logical error when used in a argument.
One the quantity is not known :headscratch: and thats the very question that needs answered. :bhead Its called begging the question. :bhead :bhead
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Comparing 45 to 50 is subjective. 25 to 75 only a fool could think there is no difference. Passing a test means nothing. All of the old ladies that confused the break pedal with the gas did pass a test that said it was OK for them to drive into the local coffee shop. Don't forget that I am arguing the age in general and not specific to this incident or pilot. It was a response to CAP who said your reflexes are not the same at 70+ only if you let them.
More young folks crash.... ask the insurance companies :P
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Comparing 45 to 50 is subjective. 25 to 75 only a fool could think there is no difference. Passing a test means nothing. All of the old ladies that confused the break pedal with the gas did pass a test that said it was OK for them to drive into the local coffee shop. Don't forget that I am arguing the age in general and not specific to this incident or pilot. It was a response to CAP who said your reflexes are not the same at 70+ only if you let them.
I never said there was not a difference. I said the testing you should be required to pass should be physically demanding enough to where only someone in very good shape as well as with good enough reflexes and all the other in tangibles can pass. I don't think many people in their 70s should be able to pass it just based on normal aging reasons. But that shouldn't disclude somebody simply because they are a certain age, just makes it harder.
And comparing what i said to the test to get your driver's license is a joke.
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More young folks crash.... ask the insurance companies :P
Yes they do, but they do not back out their driveways at 100mph only to do 25mph once they are out. They do not have their blinker on for the past 6 months, and they do not confuse the gas with the break (intentional spelling for CAP :neener: ). They do all kins of other stupid watermelon but that only shows that they are different and therefore 75 does not equal 25.
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As its been said before in this thread, anyone, regardless of age or physical condition, would have blacked out from an instantaneous +11 G pullup.
I agree on that. Everyone would have also blacked out pulling 20Gs. Those are kind of safe numbers but we don;t really know how many Gs he pulled, do we? So, what if he only pulled 9? 9.5? I hate to make this argument about that guy since it started by a mechanical malfunction so it probably would have caught everyone by surprise and have the same results anyway.
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YOu cant argue general without including everyone in your group or you just defeat your own argument. Age is not the criteria I hate to be the one to tell you. Its amount of reflexes or x,y,z. A 25 year old would get rejected the same as a 26 year old or a 70 year old if they did have x qualification.
There are plenty of teenagers that passed the driving test that drive dads car thru the garage ..... :bhead
I dont care what the content is the context is in error. Its obvious that age does not properly address the issue.
Age = x is not known to be true. x=x is known to be true.
x is 70 and has slower reflexis than y that is 25. x is 70 therefore has slower reflexes than y that is 25
One is a logical error when used in a argument.
One the quantity is not known :headscratch: and thats the very question that needs answered. :bhead Its called begging the question. :bhead :bhead
:headscratch: :confused:
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but we don;t really know how many Gs he pulled, do we?
A person was posting here that on-board monitors showed 11+ g's.
However, I think having the g's hit you by surprise is a big factor, as talked about here:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,320402.msg4179123.html#msg4179123
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Hi
One thing is surely odd to me in this topic in general.
According to some folks (in general), the experienced 75y old pilot is more capable to fly 400+mph highly modified air-race plane at near a ground level with younger racers very near by...
Sounds like there's good business opportunity for the good old Common Sense.
Once more :pray
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Hi
One thing is surely odd to me in this topic in general.
I think that the gist of it was folks saying that, in this case, the pilot's age likely had nothing to do with the accident and that whether or not a 75-year-old is qualified to be the race depends on the particular 75-year-old.
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:headscratch: :confused:
" A horses laugh is worth a 1000 syllogisms"
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Those are kind of safe numbers but we don;t really know how many Gs he pulled, do we?
Most of the Unlimiteds have pretty sophisticated telemetry on-board to monitor performance. They have recovered the telemetry data, and it did indicate a +11G pullup once the trim tab departed the aircraft.
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Isn't only one guy below the age of 30 qualified to fly reno racers?
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Isn't only one guy below the age of 30 qualified to fly reno racers?
Steve Hinton Jr. won the unlimited Gold at the age of 22... I believe his old man won a couple of his when he was in his twenties as well. But, by and large, most of the pilots are in their 40s-60s...