Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Nypsy on September 19, 2011, 05:31:07 PM
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The recent crash at Reno reminded me of the first and only time I took my wife to an air show.
This was at Sussex Airport in northwest NJ. A small local field in 1982, I am guessing the year.
When I say Sussex was small, I mean small. We all set up chairs in the grass along the runway and watched the show, right in front of us, almost over us and sometimes right on the runway as the Flying Farmer would land his Cub on a flatbed truck.
The show started with the Army Golden Knights parachute drop, with a couple T6's circling them.
As the chutes and the planes get lower, the T6's are getting louder, props are popping at times, I hear my wife say, "This is dangerous."
"What?" is my snappy reply.
"This is dangerous and I want to leave now!"
Now I never once thought of danger while at an air show, I am too mesmerized by the sights and sounds. I was flabbergasted.
"Leave?! The show just started!", I point out while pointing up at a T6 right overhead.
"I want to leave now."
We left, she was scared and it was not fair to subject her to that type of situation.
Thinking about my wife's fear made me realize that, heck yeah air shows are dangerous. Did I stop going? Heck no.
Not trying to make any kind of a point really. Just telling a tail about seeing the world through anothers eyes.
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We all have our opinions.
Many of us want to be in the thick of things...... usually knowledgeable about the dangers. Always keeping an eye out for that one wrong move.
With airshows and car races... it happens really quick.
The worst part after loss of life is the fact that folks were looking for entertainment. Something that makes them happy. To go from permagrin to such an awful occurrence in a split second is almost unfathomable.
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Driving to work is technically dangerous. I'll take the relative danger to enjoy something I like.
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The recent crash at Reno reminded me of the first and only time I took my wife to an air show.
This was at Sussex Airport in northwest NJ. A small local field in 1982, I am guessing the year.
When I say Sussex was small, I mean small. We all set up chairs in the grass along the runway and watched the show, right in front of us, almost over us and sometimes right on the runway as the Flying Farmer would land his Cub on a flatbed truck.
The show started with the Army Golden Knights parachute drop, with a couple T6's circling them.
As the chutes and the planes get lower, the T6's are getting louder, props are popping at times, I hear my wife say, "This is dangerous."
"What?" is my snappy reply.
"This is dangerous and I want to leave now!"
Now I never once thought of danger while at an air show, I am too mesmerized by the sights and sounds. I was flabbergasted.
"Leave?! The show just started!", I point out while pointing up at a T6 right overhead.
"I want to leave now."
We left, she was scared and it was not fair to subject her to that type of situation.
Thinking about my wife's fear made me realize that, heck yeah air shows are dangerous. Did I stop going? Heck no.
Not trying to make any kind of a point really. Just telling a tail about seeing the world through an others eyes.
By far, the most dangerous thing you and your wife did that day was drive to and from the airshow.
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By far, the most dangerous thing you and your wife did that day was drive to and from the airshow.
True, but I think his point is that many of us enthusiasts attending Air Shows, with our heads/eyes/thoughts stuck in the sky, fail to realise just how dangerous and aishow can be, and many of us should acknowledge that fact as well as (although this might just be my spin on things) admire and respect the effort that goes into the hundreds across the nation that are performed every year without incident.
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paranoid to go to the Wings Over Houston this October :uhoh
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Exacty what you said "hundreds across the nation that are performed every year without incident" and then this happens, the news media starts reporting without the facts, whips up the sensationalism, and loses track of reality. How about the 40,000 people a year killed in car wrecks in the U.S.?
Did anyone see Fox News today when Megan Kelly, in her typical sensationalism, explained the difference between Mr. Leeward's Mustang and an unmodified Mustang by showing a side by side picture of a P-51A and P-51D that both appeared to be in stock configuration? Complete and grossly inaccurate reporting on her part. :x
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Exacty what you said "hundreds across the nation that are performed every year without incident" and then this happens, the news media starts reporting without the facts, whips up the sensationalism, and loses track of reality. How about the 40,000 people a year killed in car wrecks in the U.S.?
Did anyone see Fox News today when Megan Kelly, in her typical sensationalism, explained the difference between Mr. Leeward's Mustang and an unmodified Mustang by showing a side by side picture of a P-51A and P-51D that both appeared to be in stock configuration? Complete and grossly inaccurate reporting on her part. :x
No, no I didn't, but if you got an email address that Fox actually listens to, I'll gladly join the lynch mob pointing out her gross inaccuracies.
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Big respect to you for understanding how your wife felt and leaving to make her feel safer. Even though clearly you really wanted to stay for yourself. Afterall, a husband's job is to protect the family, not to scare it. I hope she appreciates your sacrifice.
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I used to go to Sussex almost every year <lived in Roxbury> and that show was a bit unusual. The field itself
was too small for the usual crowd seperation, but Paul Styger had an exemption from the FAA. As far as I know, the
exemption ended either because he died or because he was convicted of embezzling FAA funds in 2009.
If your wife thought being at the field was unusual, I wonder how she would have felt about being on "Freeloader's
Hill" where the performers came literally overhead :lol
2004 Flying Farmer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj-CYjE-RWY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj-CYjE-RWY)
2004 Warbird Flypast, shows the proximity of the crowd:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Exa335NfNfY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Exa335NfNfY)
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Driving to work is technically dangerous. I'll take the relative danger to enjoy something I like.
+1
At 42 years old I've made my peace with dying and would rather die doing something I enjoy, like attending an airshow, car, boat or motorcycle race, etc than any other way. Yes there are things I'd like to do, but my kids are mostly grown and the grand-kids I have are well taken care of. No regrets.
Just sayin
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No, no I didn't, but if you got an email address that Fox actually listens to, I'll gladly join the lynch mob pointing out her gross inaccuracies.
mailto:Kelly@foxnews.com
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Big respect to you for understanding how your wife felt and leaving to make her feel safer. Even though clearly you really wanted to stay for yourself. Afterall, a husband's job is to protect the family, not to scare it. I hope she appreciates your sacrifice.
Well said. Family first.
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I agree, airshows and airplanes in general are dangerous. However, so is everything else, just the level of danger changes. Humans tent to be scared of what they don't understand, I say that's the main reason of such things. I say if your really think that you should stay away from everything that is dangerous than build yourself an underground bunker that can withstand a nuclear exploration and live there, technically even that will be dangerous as you might has miscalculated on your lifetime supply of air, food or water.
I fly few times a week and I don't see it as something super dangerous. Technically for me the drive to the airport is a lot more dangerous as I decide to forget about the existence of speed limits and focus my attention on the nearby flying aircraft (I might be exaggerating it a bit but you get the point).
I am not saying that you should be doing things that you think are dangerous, if you don't like something don't do it. Nypsy, I think you did the right thing for leaving on that day and for continuing to go to airshows after that (because you like it).
Every time you hear about an airplane crash it's sad, but the pilot died doing what he loved. There are way too many crashed and fatalities to feel sorry for all of them. If you do, you'll go crazy.
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I was at Reno this past Friday and saw the accident first hand..
Will I be at the races again next year if they continue? You're damn right I will.. I still love aviation and the races regardless of the risks, and I strongly believe most of the people that were at the show Friday afternoon feel the same way.
If people aren't willing to take the risk, don't show up.. Plain and simple..
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Technically Reno wasn't an airshow even though there was an airshow element. It's an air racing event. That is inherently more dangerous than an airshow. Racers are tuned to the limit and flown up to and beyond the limits. Airshows on the the other hand are quite carefully controlled and the aircraft are not flown to the limits. As a result most airshow accidents are rare and kill the pilot only.
I doubt very much if there were many casual attendees at Reno. Most would have been enthusiasts and knowledgeable and probably knew there was a risk. Much like motor racing. I haven't been to the Indy 500 or a Formula 1 race. But I'm sure there's signs telling everyone that motor racing is inherently dangerous. As if they didn't know.
But it is perceived risk. I'm a skydive pilot, every flying day some 30 to 40 first timers throw themselves out of my aircraft with the sense they are doing something really dangerous. But it's all carefully controlled and regulated. Then they get into their cars in a euphoric state and drive home! We all know where the greatest risk lies.
As it happens I did see an airshow crash way back in the eighties. The weird thing is that I had a bad feeling about it all day and even picked a spot in the crowd that in my opinion was the least likely place for an aircraft to come down. Added to the anxiety was the fact that my kid brother was with me. As it was the plane missed the crowd but almost hit some skydivers on the ground. It never put me off airshows though. I still realised that I was in more danger going home on my motorcycle.
There's no need to overstate the danger. Airshows are mostly more dangerous for the pilots taking part.
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Dont take her to Action Park in Sussex NJ, its even more dangerous there :D
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Exacty what you said "hundreds across the nation that are performed every year without incident" and then this happens, the news media starts reporting without the facts, whips up the sensationalism, and loses track of reality. How about the 40,000 people a year killed in car wrecks in the U.S.?
Did anyone see Fox News today when Megan Kelly, in her typical sensationalism, explained the difference between Mr. Leeward's Mustang and an unmodified Mustang by showing a side by side picture of a P-51A and P-51D that both appeared to be in stock configuration? Complete and grossly inaccurate reporting on her part. :x
That is the difference between NEWS and NEWS SHOWS. NEWS SHOWS are for entertainment only and only slightly parallel real life occurenc es.
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Sometimes I wonder if those statistics about how dangerous driving is are helpful. Basically don't they just take the number of deaths in auto accidents per year per capita, or per total number of miles driven, and then claim that is everyones's statistical chance of dying while driving? I mean is such a general figure really is valid? Certainly the East Coast rush-hour driver has a different chance of mortality than the rural Midwest driver who is making a mid-afternoon trip to the local market?
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The point being, numerous people (a great deal more than last Friday at Reno) are killed in car wrecks every day and that's no big deal to the national media because it's not sensational enough. An aircraft wreck with fatality(s) that's a another story worth sensationalizing and misrepresenting the facts.
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Sometimes I wonder if those statistics about how dangerous driving is are helpful. Basically don't they just take the number of deaths in auto accidents per year per capita, or per total number of miles driven, and then claim that is everyones's statistical chance of dying while driving? I mean is such a general figure really is valid? Certainly the East Coast rush-hour driver has a different chance of mortality than the rural Midwest driver who is making a mid-afternoon trip to the local market?
QFT
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The point being, numerous people (a great deal more than last Friday at Reno) are killed in car wrecks every day and that's no big deal to the national media because it's not sensational enough. An aircraft wreck with fatality(s) that's a another story worth sensationalizing and misrepresenting the facts.
The crash has shock factor, and the media eats that up. Nothing more to it than that.
Just as we hear about small aircraft that crash on the local news.. We only hear about it because it happens so rarely
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well difficult time for Airshows, its one thing to do what you like, but i'm responsible for my family too, i'm not sure
if this all is worth to take the kids with me. I like Airshows, and i fly paragliders knowing the risk, but family is first,
and if they dont want, its more then ok for me.
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We all have our opinions.
Many of us want to be in the thick of things...... usually knowledgeable about the dangers. Always keeping an eye out for that one wrong move.
With airshows and car races... it happens really quick.
The worst part after loss of life is the fact that folks were looking for entertainment. Something that makes them happy. To go from permagrin to such an awful occurrence in a split second is almost unfathomable.
Should we mention that half the people are there hoping to witness an accident?
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Should we mention that half the people are there hoping to witness an accident?
thought that was only with nascar :headscratch:
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An accident at a race car event 99% of the time results in the driver getting out and waiving to the crowd.
An accident at an airshow 99% of the time results in death.. The two cannot be compared to any degree, and thinking people were at the air races hoping for an accident is just plain sick..
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and thinking people were at the air races hoping for an accident is just plain sick..
I agree. And as we know, people are not like that at all :aok
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thought that was only with nascar :headscratch:
nascar, nasplane whats the diff? Can those things bank to the right? :O :bolt:
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I agree. And as we know, people are not like that at all :aok
You ever been to the air races before?
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That is the difference between NEWS and NEWS SHOWS. NEWS SHOWS are for entertainment only and only slightly parallel real life occurenc es.
It was worse than that... Megan Kelly had a reporter who stated that (paraphrasing), "these are greatly modified aircraft, that are much faster than the P-51 of WWII, which could not do anything near 400 mph."
I wrote the following email to Kelly:
I just heard a reporter state that the WWII era P-51 Mustang could not get anywhere near 400 mph... This is not only incorrect, but belies the lack of any attempt to learn even a little about the subject. This reporter probably has internet access, and therefore he could simply Google "P-51 Mustang".
The facts are these...
The P-51B of 1943 vintage was capable of speeds in excess of 440 mph at 27,000 feet.
The P-51D of 1944 vintage was capable of at least 437 mph at 25,000 feet.
The P-51H of 1945 vintage was capable of approximately 487 mph at 25,000 feet.
Leeward was flying a modified P-51D.
Please, ask these folks to do some research (the hallmark of good journalism) before going on the air... If they can't get something like this right, with ample sources at their fingertips, what else are they making errors with?
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nascar, nasplane whats the diff? Can those things bank to the right? :O :bolt:
:huh Double the speed and the addition of the third dimension has a pretty significant impact on the mortality rate.
What's the over/under on how many lawsuits this will cause? I hope the number is 0, but I have my doubts.
As to the news getting technical stuff wrong, nothing surprises me anymore. I'm surprised people even watch them considering the gross inaccuracies that occur daily.
Wiley.
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:huh Double the speed and the addition of the third dimension has a pretty significant impact on the mortality rate.
What's the over/under on how many lawsuits this will cause? I hope the number is 0, but I have my doubts.
As to the news getting technical stuff wrong, nothing surprises me anymore. I'm surprised people even watch them considering the gross inaccuracies that occur daily.
Wiley.
:lol the nascar comment was a joke. As far as law suits, people need to learn that they are responsible for them selfs. Unless that plane was deliberately aimed at them with intent to harm (and it was not), there should not be grounds for any law suit. There is an inherent danger with everything we do every day. Every one attending should have known that. But in this country, lawyers will be calling people that were not even there offering to sue instead of the people looking for lawyers. The spectators chose to take a risk - no matter how small - and I am pretty sure the pilot was not out to hurt anyone.
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:lol the nascar comment was a joke.
Ah. Disregard then. My sarcasmometer is finicky some days. :)
As far as law suits, people need to learn that they are responsible for them selfs.
They do need to learn that. I wonder if we'll ever get there... I hope I'm wrong and there are really none.
Wiley.
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Ah. Disregard then. My sarcasmometer is finicky some days. :)
They do need to learn that. I wonder if we'll ever get there... I hope I'm wrong and there are really none.
Wiley.
Nah, we already know, but when people get a bunch of phone calls explaining to them how they are entitled to compensation, they decide that they actually do. Why not if a lawyer is telling you are entitled to it? So, I am pretty sure there will be plenty and the real cost will be that the races may not happen anymore or will be modified, until the next accident.
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Why not if a lawyer is telling you are entitled to it?
People are ultimately responsible for their actions. Just because someone says you're entitled to it doesn't make it the right thing to do. Unfortunately that attitude is less than prevalent these days.
Wiley.
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I have been around air shows all my life, literally. My folks crewed on Scatterbrain kid, and with White lightening, when I was in a stroller. I ran an oil crew for the CAF when they were out of Harlingen, before I had a drivers license. The airport my folks owned hosted many fly-ins, I have crewed on response teams at air shows, and i was on the D.A.R.T when I was in Iraq. I have been to hundreds of air shows. I have flown in dozens of them before my dad crashed, and that broke our plane set and team up. I have seen many aircraft crashes, and only 5 of them had anything to do with an airshow. Air shows are as safe as we can make them. The pilots don't just go jump in a bird and go fly, there are safety briefings, oh god the safety briefings, the FAA is ALWAYS there, with their little ramp check sheets, and god forbid you miss something on a ramp check. I am sure it is even more restrictive for the pilots at air races, I am sure that there are more rules, and guidelines involved, and I really don't even want to think about the safety briefings. But accidents do happen, airplanes break, there are set crowd lines that you do not cross, I am sure that they are there at races. When Frank and Amanda crashed, due to a catastrophic engine failure he turned away from the crowd and put the Waco in the trees. Air shows are safe, they are fun, and they encourage young people to get involved with aviation. I just wish they were not so expensive.
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in the mid 70's my dad was an R/C enthusiest we went to all the shows
1976 we went to the AMA nationals {American Model Association}at wright pattison airfield.the pylon races were cool but they often got together and crashed sometimes on the tarmac but one in particular lost control and went down in a parking lot between two cars,everyone talked about how it was a good thing the AMA makes everyone carry insurance,no one even mentioned that if one of those lil balsa wood planes went into the crowd that someone would get hurt.the following year we were in toledo at an RC trade show and a helicopter demo was going on,RC helicopters were new and we went to watch. as the pilot hovered a strong wind kicked up off the river and turned the aircraft on its side,my Dad grabbed and threw me under the car behind us and the helicopter crashed right in front of where we were standing, it scared the hell out of him and he talked the whole way back about how dumb it had been to try and fly in that wind.I will never forget that day and yet I take my son to the airshows and we enjoy every minute I still try to kep a watchful eye on the aircraft that are flying.I hope this accident doesnt ruin airshows in the future
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People are ultimately responsible for their actions. Just because someone says you're entitled to it doesn't make it the right thing to do. Unfortunately that attitude is less than prevalent these days.
Wiley.
I am just saying that people can be easily convinced by a lawyer to sue. They probably would have never done it if it was not for a lawyer talking them into it. After all, that someone talking to them is someone that knows the law, and if the law says one is entitled to compensation, why argue with the law? In my opinion, the lawyers need to be controlled somehow. A law forbidding them from contacting you about anything unless you contact them first would be nice. Late nigh TV is full of advertisements on how you may be entitled to compensation.
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It was worse than that... Megan Kelly had a reporter who stated that (paraphrasing), "these are greatly modified aircraft, that are much faster than the P-51 of WWII, which could not do anything near 400 mph."
I wrote the following email to Kelly:
I just heard a reporter state that the WWII era P-51 Mustang could not get anywhere near 400 mph... This is not only incorrect, but belies the lack of any attempt to learn even a little about the subject. This reporter probably has internet access, and therefore he could simply Google "P-51 Mustang".
The facts are these...
The P-51B of 1943 vintage was capable of speeds in excess of 440 mph at 27,000 feet.
The P-51D of 1944 vintage was capable of at least 437 mph at 25,000 feet.
The P-51H of 1945 vintage was capable of approximately 487 mph at 25,000 feet.
Leeward was flying a modified P-51D.
Please, ask these folks to do some research (the hallmark of good journalism) before going on the air... If they can't get something like this right, with ample sources at their fingertips, what else are they making errors with?
Just wondering, maybe that statement about a WWII P-51 not reaching 400mph is correct if you are talking about race altitude - looks to me like they don't get more the 500' off the ground?
One of our TV news anchors here kept referring to it as a "P-41". :bhead
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Just wondering, maybe that statement about a WWII P-51 not reaching 400mph is correct if you are talking about race altitude - looks to me like they don't get more the 500' off the ground?
One of our TV news anchors here kept referring to it as a "P-41". :bhead
Naw, within the context of what the reporter was talking about, it was obvious that he was clueless about the topic. My wife's cat knows more about cold fusion than this knucklehead did about aircraft.
Besides, you can dive a P-51 to Mach .75 skimming the tree tops.
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An accident at a race car event 99% of the time results in the driver getting out and waiving to the crowd.
An accident at an airshow 99% of the time results in death.. The two cannot be compared to any degree, and thinking people were at the air races hoping for an accident is just plain sick..
Many times there are accidents, hard landings and even crash landings here in Reno, from which the pilot walks away, but the media never reports the news that a race pilot walked away from a possible deadly crash.
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Many times there are accidents, hard landings and even crash landings here in Reno, from which the pilot walks away, but the media never reports the news that a race pilot walked away from a possible deadly crash.
Yeah I'm aware of that.. There was a Questair Venture that put it in the dirt on Wednesday where the pilot walked away, but I was just trying to make a point.. Airshow accidents are MUCH more serious and deadly than auto racing.. Cars are designed to withstand a crash, aircraft are not..
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Just wondering, maybe that statement about a WWII P-51 not reaching 400mph is correct if you are talking about race altitude - looks to me like they don't get more the 500' off the ground?
One of our TV news anchors here kept referring to it as a "P-41". :bhead
Well, when they take off and circle to get their line abreast formation for the start of the race they do have lots of altitude. When the pace plane pilot tells them, Gentlemen, you have a race", he pulls up, they dive down, and for the most part are 50 to 100 feet AGL for the remainder of the race.
A local reporter asked the race director a couple of great questions, and was very serious about it... "Was this a new plane", then "How long had the pilot been flying this stunt plane?"
Answer to question 1, "Mame, this plane was originally built during, or just after, WWII, which ended in 1945. It has been rebuilt and modified many times since then.
Answer to question 2, "Mame, this was not a stunt plane. This was a highly modified WWII Fighter that had been turned into a race aircraft. Please, no more questions.
Anyone else have a question I can answer that is relevant and will not make you look foolish? (End of questions!!)
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Yeah I'm aware of that.. There was a Questair Venture that put it in the dirt on Wednesday where the pilot walked away, but I was just trying to make a point.. Airshow accidents are MUCH more serious and deadly than auto racing.. Cars are designed to withstand a crash, aircraft are not..
NOVA, If the races continue, it would be my pleasure to hook up with you out there next year.
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NOVA, If the races continue, it would be my pleasure to hook up with you out there next year.
Hey HB, that would be great. Let's plan on it :cheers:
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Hey HB, that would be great. Let's plan on it :cheers:
Done! :D
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Big respect to you for understanding how your wife felt and leaving to make her feel safer. Even though clearly you really wanted to stay for yourself. Afterall, a husband's job is to protect the family, not to scare it. I hope she appreciates your sacrifice.
when my son was about 4, we spent all day camping at the park to get good place for the 4th of july fireworks. when the first firework went up my son got scared because he thought it was dangerous. we left without even thinking about it. I have never regretted it either. your family's sanity/health/wellbeing is more important than anything else.
semp
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By far, the most dangerous thing you and your wife did that day was drive to and from the airshow.
ESPECIALLY in NEW JERSEY! :bolt:
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ok this is true and scary
last night i was on my computer ANDZ GU335 W1/7!
i feel off my chair......... I WAZ LEIKZ AHHHZHZHHZHZHZHZHZ!...
I made a law and sent it to teh govermant... 'NOZ ONZ SHAZZLS SITZ ON TEHZ CHAIRZ MY HEAD HRTS LEIKS ALOTZ!!, CHAIZES SHOULDZZ BEZ BANDZZZZZZ!
B3C1/AU35 THEY MAKZ MEZ HAED HUTZ! BADZ!"
i got sent a letter back it said "LAW #901823 HAS NOT PASSED DO TO HANDWRITING NOT READABLE"
thatz makez me :cry