Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Babalonian on October 10, 2011, 04:46:42 PM
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This isn't the first time this has been asked, but it's been a while since I've seen it top-side.
Was there ever a time (or has it ever been considered) that the Spit XIV wasn't perked? I understand why it was/is perked, but compared to many other non-perked aircraft in the MA... would it actualy be over-used or abused if it didn't have a perk cost but rather a low ENY? Has this ever been tested, intentionaly or inadvertently? Contemplated? Would it be likely over-utilized during the intial change (for whatever reason) _and_ after the dust settles?
As is, it feels highly under-utilised (see: hangar queen), especialy compared to the prevolence of Spit XVIs. This has been a question on my mind for a few weeks now as there is a Spit XIV that I see frequently now at the air museum I've been volunteering time at recently.
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Spitfire Mk XIV was perked at 60 when first added to AH and it has been gradually reduced to where it is now. No lowering of it's perk cost has ever had a significant effect on it's usage.
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True, although I didn't know it was originally 60, yikes. But I'm specificaly asking about it's complete removal of cost. That's a different ballgame than simpley a signifigant reduction, or so I would think.
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I dont think we would see a ton of em all of a sudden.
+1 to unperk it.
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I think you would. The XIV out performs the other spits even at lower alts. While the engine would take getting used to, it's still a spit, yanno? :noid
I think a low 2-5 perk is about right, but am okay with unperking.
if unperked then the 109k4 needs a look at its eny. the k4 is the 14's nemesis and there's a disconnect with these two planes relative to each other and the rest of the planeset, imho.
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The 14 is a whole other creature compared to any of the other spits. It takes a fine hand to run a 14 like a 16.
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I think you would. The XIV out performs the other spits even at lower alts. While the engine would take getting used to, it's still a spit, yanno? :noid
I think a low 2-5 perk is about right, but am okay with unperking.
if unperked then the 109k4 needs a look at its eny. the k4 is the 14's nemesis and there's a disconnect with these two planes relative to each other and the rest of the planeset, imho.
I've heard that comparison to the K4 before, that they are nemesis to each other, but you'd never know it in the skies of AH.
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I think it should stay the way it is, it has a well deserved perk value.
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There are a whole bunch of fighters that could stand to use a small perk cost. I could see why the Spit14 would cost 1 or 2, but not 7 or whatever it is. At one time, the P47N and Ta162 were perked as well. HTC woke up. Sooner or later they will drastically reduce the perk price or remove it all together for the Spit14.
What I fail to comprehend is how the Spit14 is perked, yet the P51D, Spit16, La7, and possibly a few others are not perked. Just add up the "good and best" of each plane and tell me which aircraft of the 4 mentioned in this paragraph really out class the others at anything. Figure out why the Spit14 is perked and let me know.
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I think it should stay the way it is, it has a well deserved perk value.
Is it truely well deserved though? Founded, yes. But why do other planes almost as deserving not have one then?
There are a whole bunch of fighters that could stand to use a small perk cost. I could see why the Spit14 would cost 1 or 2, but not 7 or whatever it is. At one time, the P47N and Ta162 were perked as well. HTC woke up. Sooner or later they will drastically reduce the perk price or remove it all together for the Spit14.
What I fail to comprehend is how the Spit14 is perked, yet the P51D, Spit16, La7, and possibly a few others are not perked. Just add up the "good and best" of each plane and tell me which aircraft of the 4 mentioned in this paragraph really out class the others at anything. Figure out why the Spit14 is perked and let me know.
That's along the line of the discussion I'm stirring here, it's not a "waaah, I want free Spit XIVs" but "hey, is it really necessary? it might dilute up the number of Spit 16s you see in a furball.". If removed would it truely be outclassing many other quite capable late-war era machines? I personaly don't think so, but thats the debate I'm trying to stir here.
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Is it truely well deserved though? Founded, yes. But why do other planes almost as deserving not have one then?
That's along the line of the discussion I'm stirring here, it's not a "waaah, I want free Spit XIVs" but "hey, is it really necessary? it might dilute up the number of Spit 16s you see in a furball.". If removed would it truely be outclassing many other quite capable late-war era machines? I personaly don't think so, but thats the debate I'm trying to stir here.
From a perked standpoint, it outclimbs from low to med alt anything else in the game (not 163 duh) Even a 109k or La7 doesn't quite match it. The things pure horsepower.
From an unperked standpoint, I do not see many (I DID NOT SAY EVERYONE..so please do not go there) flyers using it any different than spit16 in which case I'd rather imagine they would be in for an unpleasant surprise.
So I'm on the fence, in the right hands (prolly not mine :uhoh) It's a monster of a plane. But I dont think that alone deserves a perk price, kind of like how I view the Ta152, which used to be perked as well. (also crazy good in the right hands, but not mine...as usual :confused:)
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From a perked standpoint, it outclimbs from low to med alt anything else in the game (not 163 duh) Even a 109k or La7 doesn't quite match it. The things pure horsepower.
From an unperked standpoint, I do not see many (I DID NOT SAY EVERYONE..so please do not go there) flyers using it any different than spit16 in which case I'd rather imagine they would be in for an unpleasant surprise.
So I'm on the fence, in the right hands (prolly not mine :uhoh) It's a monster of a plane. But I dont think that alone deserves a perk price, kind of like how I view the Ta152, which used to be perked as well. (also crazy good in the right hands, but not mine...as usual :confused:)
I did actually. :rolleyes:
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Is it truely well deserved though? Founded, yes. But why do other planes almost as deserving not have one then?
Think of it this way, what is the disadvantage of ever Merlin Spitfire? The speed, they are not fast. They climb great, maintain their energy really good, turn great, can out accelerate anything, but all those advantages do not allow it to fly fast. Griffon Spitfires are overpowered so they do not have the speed disadvantage. Granted Spit14 does loose some of it's maneuverability because of the weight but it can still out turn most (if not all) late war righter. It's the best of both worlds.
People just keep thinking that it's some super cool Spit16 and take it into a furball low and slow, then complain that it does not deserve it's perk value. You just got to know what your doing. It is the opposite of a Spit16.
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I did actually. :rolleyes:
I read it wrong. Your right then.
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I read it wrong. Your right then.
Eh, you explained it better :salute
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There are some really lousy excuses being used in here to justify it being perked.
Results are what count and it fails to even approach the 1) results or 2) usage level of any other perked fighter. It matched or exceeded in performance by the Bf109K-4, which not only has twice the WEP but also much higher performance on MIL.
Either unperk it or remodel it on 150 octane at +21lbs boost.
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There are some really lousy excuses being used in here to justify it being perked.
Results are what count and it fails to even approach the 1) results or 2) usage level of any other perked fighter. It matched or exceeded in performance by the Bf109K-4, which not only has twice the WEP but also much higher performance on MIL.
Either unperk it or remodel it on 150 octane at +21lbs boost.
You compare fighter performance by the amount of time it can stay in WEP?
109 might be fast but it can't out turn Spit14, and it compresses at 400mph. 109 also can't maintain it's energy for nearly as long as Spit14, plus Spit14's guns are better.
And I'll say that Spit14 can take more fire.
There is a reason why 109K has 20 ENY.
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Turn rate between the Bf109K-4 and Spitfire Mk XIV is very close. The Bf109 is also a better gun platform and has centerline mounted guns.
Further, claiming there is a reason the Bf109K-4 has an ENY of 20 as a contrast to the Spitfire Mk XIV is silly as the Spitfire Mk XIV has never had a chance to see where it will fall out in general use. As it is, it barely breaks a 1:1 K/D ratio and has minuscule usage each tour.
You're not so delusional as to think that unfettered from its perk cost it will suddenly dominate are you?
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Turn rate between the Bf109K-4 and Spitfire Mk XIV is very close. The Bf109 is also a better gun platform and has centerline mounted guns.
Further, claiming there is a reason the Bf109K-4 has an ENY of 20 as a contrast to the Spitfire Mk XIV is silly as the Spitfire Mk XIV has never had a chance to see where it will fall out in general use. As it is, it barely breaks a 1:1 K/D ratio and has minuscule usage each tour.
109 is a better gun platform, but it's gun is not good. Sure it might have the power to destroy a plane with one hit but you don't have much ammo and the rate of fire sucks.
It's low K/D ratio is because 99% of the people here use it as a super cool Spit16.
You're not so delusional as to think that unfettered from its perk cost it will suddenly dominate are you?
No it wont, because people will still use it as a super cool Spit16. Those few who actually understand how to fly it wont spend the time to learn the airplane because there are easier planes to learn. That's why it's perk price is so low.
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Used correctly, the P-51D is almost untouchable. Used correctly the Fw190D-9 is almost untouchable. Used correctly the Bf109K-4 is almost untouchable. Used correctly the La-7 is almost untouchable. The fact that people misuse them doesn't justify their being unperked.
That is the same exact argument you are using against unperking the Spitfire Mk XIV. The only criteria for perking is if the unit would be imbalancing if it were not controlled. Do you really see the MA being crushed by hordes of suddenly skilled Spitfire Mk XIVs?
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Used correctly, the P-51D is almost untouchable. Used correctly the Fw190D-9 is almost untouchable. Used correctly the Bf109K-4 is almost untouchable. Used correctly the La-7 is almost untouchable. The fact that people misuse them doesn't justify their being unperked.
All those airplanes can be untouchable (besides the La), but they would they would not be able to get a single kill either.
That is the same exact argument you are using against unperking the Spitfire Mk XIV. The only criteria for perking is if the unit would be imbalancing if it were not controlled. Do you really see the MA being crushed by hordes of suddenly skilled Spitfire Mk XIVs?
Right away, no. After a year or so it will because people will learn. That's why the perk price is so low.
Right now people take it, rip the wings off because they never flew it before, say it sucks and they wasted perks, and never fly it before. If it was unperked loosing it would not be such a problem.
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If people were able to learn, they would have in the nine years it has been in the game. They have not and will not.
Further, even in the worst case scenario, it could simply be perked again.
You're delusional and simply contrarian with no evidence to support your claims.
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If people were able to learn, they would have in the nine years it has been in the game. They have not and will not.
Further, even in the worst case scenario, it could simply be perked again.
You're delusional and simply contrarian with no evidence to support your claims.
No evidence? How about it's performance characteristics and capabilities?
And just for the record, the fact that it's perked means HTC agrees with me.
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The same arguments were made about the Ta152 and the same claims of doom if it were unperked.
It was unperked and no doom happened.
While I respect HTC they are not infallible, nor have they every claimed to be. Your appeal to authority to back up your argument only reveals how weak your argument is.
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The same arguments were made about the Ta152 and the same claims of doom if it were unperked.
It was unperked and no doom happened.
While I respect HTC they are not infallible, nor have they every claimed to be. Your appeal to authority to back up your argument only reveals how weak your argument is.
152 can only BnZ, Spitfire can do everything.
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152 can only BnZ, Spitfire can do everything.
Most fighters in the game will out turn the Spitfire Mk XIV without difficulty. It rolls poorly, particularly at high speed. A significant number of fighters will out run it at AH combat altitudes.
The Spitfire Mk XIV most certainly cannot "do everything".
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Most fighters in the game will out turn the Spitfire Mk XIV without difficulty. It rolls poorly, particularly at high speed. A significant number of fighters will out run it at AH combat altitudes.
The Spitfire Mk XIV most certainly cannot "do everything".
The only fighters that can out turn it are the ones that are a good 100mph slower. Just fight those in the vertical and you'll win.
Sure it's not the fastest on the deck, but it is one of the fastest up high. Can even out run a pony above 10K.
It does not have any roll problems bellow 400mph, above that it does not roll good, but most other airplanes can only fly straight at that speed, so spit14 can still out roll them. Ex: 109, P-38, zero, ect...
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The P-38L has the fastest roll rate in the game at 400mph.
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The P-38L has the fastest roll rate in the game at 400mph.
L has hydraulically boosted ailerons, all the other model's can't roll at that speed.
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L has hydraulically boosted ailerons, all the other model's can't roll at that speed.
Yup, and what percentage of P-38s in the MA are L models do you think?
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Yup, and what percentage of P-38s in the MA are L models do you think?
Given that AKAK flies 90% of P-38s in MA than I'd say most are Js. :lol
What good is L's high speed roll rate when it wont be able to pull out of a dive?
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152 can only BnZ......
you think so?
I have a feeling I can find someone who will out right smoke most anyone in a stall fight, against ANY plane, in the weeds, in a 152.
although I think its a m00t point.........
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Given that AKAK flies 90% of P-38s in MA than I'd say most are Js. :lol
What good is L's high speed roll rate when it wont be able to pull out of a dive?
A P38L can pull out of a dive just as well as the J or G. I'll give you a hint: it's not just the dive brakes that does the trick.
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A P38L can pull out of a dive just as well as the J or G. I'll give you a hint: it's not just the dive brakes that does the trick.
It can be done, but it's a lot harder than most other planes.
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you think so?
I have a feeling I can find someone who will out right smoke most anyone in a stall fight, against ANY plane, in the weeds, in a 152.
although I think its a m00t point.........
I never said no one can't dogfight, I said the plane is for BnZing. Just like AKAK dogfights in P-38s, it's not a dogfighter yet he does it.
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The 38 lockup is no more difficult to get out of than any of the P47s when they overspeed. If anything the 38 slows down a little easier when you chop throttle in my experience.
Wiley.
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I never said no one can't dogfight, I said the plane is for BnZing. Just like AKAK dogfights in P-38s, it's not a dogfighter yet he does it.
no you said..."152 can only Bnz..." that is what you said.
and that is very wrong.
and for the record AKAK picks then climbs back up to his perch..... and runs when he don't have or loses advantage. shoulda used a better example then AKAK :rofl
Guppy now there is a guy that will "dog fight" in a 38 :aok
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no you said..."152 can only Bnz..." that is what you said.
and that is very wrong.
and for the record AKAK picks then climbs back up to his perch..... and runs when he don't have or loses advantage. shoulda used a better example then AKAK :rofl
Yeah but you know what I mean.
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It can be done, but it's a lot harder than most other planes.
Actually pulling out of a dive in a P38 is quite easy. It just takes a certain amount of common sense to be able to do it.
I never said no one can't dogfight, I said the plane is for BnZing. Just like AKAK dogfights in P-38s, it's not a dogfighter yet he does it.
There are many historical records and pilot accounts that will prove your point incorrect about the P38. I am not an allied pro-elitist P38 fanboy, but I certainly am aware that P38s are more than capable of dogfighting.
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Actually pulling out of a dive in a P38 is quite easy. It just takes a certain amount of common sense to be able to do it.
There are many historical records and pilot accounts that will prove your point incorrect about the P38. I am not an allied pro-elitist P38 fanboy, but I certainly am aware that P38s are more than capable of dogfighting.
It's a lot easier to do in every other plane.
There is a reason all other fighters have a single engine.
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Yeah but you know what I mean.
no I didn't :headscratch:
not on ether of those comments ...you made no sense at all...sorry man
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It's a lot easier to do in every other plane.
So with this said, an A6M2 will just blow the P38 away in a dive simply because P38s are difficult aircraft to dive in? I'd like you to test that theory out.
There is a reason all other fighter has a single engine.
Is that so? Please enlighten me. :)
But you are probably right anyways since P38s are actually designed to be twin-engined light bombers that suck in everything related to air-to-air combat. After all, they do use a yoke instead of a stick...
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So with this said, an A6M2 will just blow the P38 away in a dive simply because P38s are difficult aircraft to dive in? I'd like you to test that theory out.
Zero sucks in a dive even more. Compare P-38s diving ability with Spitfire, P-51, F4U, 190, ect...
You know how to kill P-38s when they are on your six? Enter a dive and have him follow you, than pull out and watch him crash.
BTW in AH you can pull the 38 out of a dive with trim, because for some reason trim is immune to compression effects. This needs to be fixed.
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no I didn't :headscratch:
not on ether of those comments ...you made no sense at all...sorry man
If the pilot is good he can dogfight a goon and win, but he'll go a much better job doing it in a Spitfire (or any other fighter than can dogfight).
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It's a lot easier to do in every other plane.
There is a reason all other fighter has a single engine.
There were a number of twin engined fighters in WWII. We even have three of them in AH.
Only the P-38 was really competitive with single engined fighters, though the Mosquito could hold its own if flown with a little panache.
Twin engined fighters of WWII:
Beaufighter
Bf110
Fokker G.1
J1N1
Ki-45
Ki-46
Ki-102
Me210
Me410
Mosquito
P-38
P-61
Whirlwind
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If the pilot is good he can dogfight a goon and win, but he'll go a much better job doing it in a Spitfire (or any other fighter than can dogfight).
thats beside the point....do you retract your statement that 152's can only BnZ?
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thats beside the point....do you retract your statement that 152's can only BnZ?
I'll rephrase it, it's only good for BnZing. If your turning fighting in it you made a wrong decision taking it and should be flying something else.
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There were a number of twin engined fighters in WWII. We even have three of them in AH.
Only the P-38 was really competitive with single engined fighters, though the Mosquito could hold its own if flown with a little panache.
Twin engined fighters of WWII:
Beaufighter
Bf110
Fokker G.1
J1N1
Ki-45
Ki-46
Ki-102
Me210
Me410
Mosquito
P-38
P-61
Whirlwind
Out of that list P-38 is the closest thing to a fighter.
If I were to post a list of WWII single engine fighters it would be a lot longer. If twins were indeed better fighters everyone would be making twins.
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I'll rephrase it, it's only good for BnZing. If your turning fighting in it you made a wrong decision taking it and should be flying something else.
The same exact thing can be said about the Spitfire Mk XIV.
Out of that list P-38 is the closest thing to a fighter.
If I were to post a list of WWII single engine fighters it would be a lot longer. If twins were indeed better fighters everyone would be making twins.
Nobody said they were better, just that they were fighters. You claimed there was only a single twin engined fighter.
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The same exact thing can be said about the Spitfire Mk XIV.
Not really. It's a lot better at BnZing than other Spitfires are it's nowhere near the best at it. Also it can actually turn fight, sure it's not the best at it but it can outturn anything it can't outrun or outclimb.
Nobody said they were better, just that they were fighters. You claimed there was only a single twin engined fighter.
Okay I'll agree they are fighters, but they suck at turn fighting.
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Not really. It's a lot better at BnZing than other Spitfires are it's nowhere near the best at it. Also it can actually turn fight, sure it's not the best at it but it can outturn anything it can't outrun or outclimb.
Most of the fighters in the game will easily out turn the Spitfire Mk XIV. I know you keep insisting otherwise, but you're wrong. Further, there are a at least two fighters that can match or beat it in turning that are also faster, the F4U-4 and the La-7. High altitude speed means jack, drag an La-7 up there and see what happens. I have.
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Most of the fighters in the game will easily out turn the Spitfire Mk XIV. I know you keep insisting otherwise, but you're wrong. Further, there are a at least two fighters that can match or beat it in turning that are also faster, the F4U-4 and the La-7. High altitude speed means jack, drag an La-7 up there and see what happens. I have.
The only airplanes that will easily out turn a Spit14 are a good 100mph slower. F4U-4 does come close but as long as the Spitfire pilot does not drop his speed F4U's flaps wont help much. I'll also add that F4U-4 is better than Spit14, in Aces High (not in real life).
Spit14 can easily out turn the La-7. La-7 sucks above 5K, Spit14 is actually good there.
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Zero sucks in a dive even more. Compare P-38s diving ability with Spitfire, P-51, F4U, 190, ect...
But in your previous statement, you specifically said that every other plane can dive easier than the P38. You say one thing, yet say another.
You know how to kill P-38s when they are on your six? Enter a dive and have him follow you, than pull out and watch him crash.
Those who follow you in a dive and crash their P38s either were not paying attention to their altitudes, or they just simply do not know how to fly the P38.
BTW in AH you can pull the 38 out of a dive with trim, because for some reason trim is immune to compression effects. This needs to be fixed.
It appears that you really do not know what you are talking about then. There is a reason why aircraft have trim tabs on control surfaces. They not only assist in relieving stick pressure, but help control the attitude of the aircraft, particularly at high speeds. I'm sure someone who is knowledgeable in aerodynamics could explain how trim tabs work better than I can.
Try taking a Spitfire, 190, P40, 109, or any plane and put it in a dive. Go fast enough to where your stick cannot maneuver the aircraft. Start trimming your elevators up and you will pull out of a dive (assuming you don't pull too many Gs and rip off your wings).
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But in your previous statement, you specifically said that every other plane can dive easier than the P38. You say one thing, yet say another.
I said most other planes, not all.
It can be done, but it's a lot harder than most other planes.
Those who follow you in a dive and crash their P38s either were not paying attention to their altitudes, or they just simply do not know how to fly the P38.
It appears that you really do not know what you are talking about then. There is a reason why aircraft have trim tabs on control surfaces. They not only assist in relieving stick pressure, but help control the attitude of the aircraft, particularly at high speeds. I'm sure someone who is knowledgeable in aerodynamics could explain how trim tabs work better than I can.
Try taking a Spitfire, 190, P40, 109, or any plane and put it in a dive. Go fast enough to where your stick cannot maneuver the aircraft. Start trimming your elevators up and you will pull out of a dive (assuming you don't pull too many Gs and rip off your wings).
This is not realistic and needs to be fixed. In case of Aces High it's still a lot easier to pull out of a dive with the stick than using trim.
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It's a lot easier to do in every other plane.
I said most other planes, not all.
Nope. Looks like "every other" to me. :)
This is not realistic and needs to be fixed. In case of Aces High it's still a lot easier to pull out of a dive with the stick than using trim.
If you can provide real factual evidence that support your claim, then I will stop harassing you.
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The only airplanes that will easily out turn a Spit14 are a good 100mph slower. F4U-4 does come close but as long as the Spitfire pilot does not drop his speed F4U's flaps wont help much. I'll also add that F4U-4 is better than Spit14, in Aces High (not in real life).
Spit14 can easily out turn the La-7. La-7 sucks above 5K, Spit14 is actually good there.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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As you didn't get my point, I will be blunt about it. I drug a La-7 to 22,000ft and turned on him. He stuck around for a single turn before realizing how outclassed he was and dove away down to the altitudes at which he had the edge. The Spitfire Mk XIV's dominance at 27,000ft is meaningless in AH as it is exceedingly unlikely for it to find anything up there to fight before it runs out of fuel.
FYI, the La-7 is actually very good up past 10,000 and still quite usable at 20,000. What fighters in AH do you actually use?
In addition, the MA is not a duel. While I could have engaged the La-7 down low, I would have been swarmed by his friends as well and the Spitfire Mk XIV does not have the Tempest's speed that allows it to escape with ease.
Throughout this thread you have continually misrepresented the Spitfire Mk XIV's advantages to be much stronger than they are and downplayed the strengths of every other fighter. You have lied about the way it is used as a method of explaining away the only hard data we have on its actual effectiveness in AH.
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Nope. Looks like "every other" to me. :)
If you can provide real factual evidence that support your claim, then I will stop harassing you.
Then your going to stop harassing me? LMAO Let's get this straight, in the end of the day I don't give a $h1t what you guys think or say. I think I'm the only pilot here who actually flies real airplanes so I recommend you actually pay attention to what I say.
Now I will explain why trim is useless, in the hopes that HTC will not fix.
When compression occurs some parts of the aircraft are moving supersonic. Because the airframe is not made for supersonic flight the air coming from behind your wings starts buffeting (see picture bellow). Elevators works well when the air passes smoothly other them, when it's buffeting they loose most of their effectiveness (this depends on the speed, airframe, and location of elevators). You can't pull out of a dive not because the pilot is not strong enough, but because the elevators are not doing anything.
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/2557/p38profile.gif)
Blue is the airflow
It is possible that a trim tab might be able to help, however unlikely. Trim tab changes the shape of your elevator therefore changing the airflow. So if the trim tab is shaped correctly this might work. The odds of it working are extremely low, especially since it was not designed for that purpose. Also the airplane would need to actually have a trim tab, a lot of airplanes' trim works by moving the elevator.
In Aces High using trim to get out of a dive works on every airplane, this is not right.
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As you didn't get my point, I will be blunt about it. I drug a La-7 to 22,000ft and turned on him. He stuck around for a single turn before realizing how outclassed he was and dove away down to the altitudes at which he had the edge. The Spitfire Mk XIV's dominance at 27,000ft is meaningless in AH as it is exceedingly unlikely for it to find anything up there to fight before it runs out of fuel.
FYI, the La-7 is actually very good up past 10,000 and still quite usable at 20,000. What fighters in AH do you actually use?
In addition, the MA is not a duel. While I could have engaged the La-7 down low, I would have been swarmed by his friends as well and the Spitfire Mk XIV does not have the Tempest's speed that allows it to escape with ease.
Throughout this thread you have continually misrepresented the Spitfire Mk XIV's advantages to be much stronger than they are and downplayed the strengths of every other fighter. You have lied about the way it is used as a method of explaining away the only hard data we have on its actual effectiveness in AH.
By "high altitude" I did not mean 27K, I meant above 10K.
I use Spit 14, Spit 8, F4U-1A, and F4U-4.
How did I lie?
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Stuff
Yes, many people in AH mistake heavy controls for compression and don't understand the difference. That said, the P-38 dives and recovers just fine if you keep it below compression. 400mph is well below compression for the P-38.
Your claims of being a "real pilot" are just another appeal to authority and are rejected as such. I've seen "real pilots" give boneheaded and incorrect answers many times.
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Then your going to stop harassing me? LMAO Let's get this straight, in the end of the day I don't give a $h1t what you guys think or say. I think I'm the only pilot here who actually flies real airplanes so I recommend you actually pay attention to what I say.
Now I will explain why trim is useless, in the hopes that HTC will not fix.
When compression occurs some parts of the aircraft are moving supersonic. Because the airframe is not made for supersonic flight the air coming from behind your wings starts buffeting (see picture bellow). Elevators works well when the air passes smoothly other them, when it's buffeting they loose most of their effectiveness (this depends on the speed, airframe, and location of elevators). You can't pull out of a dive not because the pilot is not strong enough, but because the elevators are not doing anything.
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/2557/p38profile.gif)
Blue is the airflow
It is possible that a trim tab might be able to help, however unlikely. Trim tab changes the shape of your elevator therefore changing the airflow. So if the trim tab is shaped correctly this might work. The odds of it working are extremely low, especially since it was not designed for that purpose. Also the airplane would need to actually have a trim tab, a lot of airplanes' trim works by moving the elevator.
In Aces High using trim to get out of a dive works on every airplane, this is not right.
:rofl
damn you crack me up.
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Your claims of being a "real pilot" are just another appeal to authority and are rejected as such. I've seen "real pilots" give boneheaded and incorrect answers many times.
I guess since you guys know everything I'm done with this conversation.
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You lied by claiming people all use it like it should be a super Spit XVI. While I have no doubt that is at times true, the same is going to be true of every other perk fighter as well. I have used it and I do not use it the same as other Spitfires.
It is much harder to survive in it than it is in other perk planes because it does not have the pure performance to get out of trouble. Its best performance attribute is its climb rate, and that is nullified by any fighter that comes upon the fight at a higher altitude. Even a P-40 will over take a climbing Spitfire Mk XIV if it has the altitude on it. In that situation a Tempest can dive away, but the Spitfire will be run down by a fair number of fighters if it tries to do so.
I guess since you guys know everything I'm done with this conversation.
Appeals to authority are an invalid method of arguing. You have to provide data, not simply say "I'm right because Bob said so."
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Hilarious thread :aok
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Hilarious thread :aok
indeed :aok :lol
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I have to say that it is my opinion that none of the spits should be perked. After all it is mostly new folks that need them to get some experience and confidence. We all know that new folks have the least perks to be delving out on birds.
The only folks able to fly them if they are perked are the ones that have been here awhile but don't fly much and require a more forgiving ride.
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Then your going to stop harassing me? LMAO Let's get this straight, in the end of the day I don't give a $h1t what you guys think or say. I think I'm the only pilot here who actually flies real airplanes so I recommend you actually pay attention to what I say.
Now I will explain why trim is useless, in the hopes that HTC will not fix.
You think you are the only pilot who flies real aircraft??? There are several people in AH that fly real aircraft. I'm sure any one of them can tell you the usefulness of trim tabs. Just ask the pilots at the Reno Air Races.
When compression occurs some parts of the aircraft are moving supersonic. Because the airframe is not made for supersonic flight the air coming from behind your wings starts buffeting (see picture bellow). Elevators works well when the air passes smoothly other them, when it's buffeting they loose most of their effectiveness (this depends on the speed, airframe, and location of elevators). You can't pull out of a dive not because the pilot is not strong enough, but because the elevators are not doing anything.
The problem is, none of the aircraft in Aces High reach supersonic speeds. Therefore the trim tabs work just as they should. You don't truly "compress" in Aces High because you are not breaking the sound barrier. As Karnak has stated, there are many people who experience very heavy controls at high speeds and think that they are compressing.
It is possible that a trim tab might be able to help, however unlikely. Trim tab changes the shape of your elevator therefore changing the airflow. So if the trim tab is shaped correctly this might work. The odds of it working are extremely low, especially since it was not designed for that purpose.
Most aircraft in WW2 capable of high speeds had trim tabs that were designed to handle the stresses of high speed flight. If none of the aircraft had trim tabs, we would all be flying at 200 mph at ground level, sweating our butts off trying to keep a consistent level flight path. The other thing is that trim tabs helped improve handling at higher speeds compared to aircraft that did not have them at the time.
Your argument to suggest that trim tabs are weak/useless/pathetic isn't convincing. Don't kid yourself in believing that the military designed combat aircraft in WW2 were going to stop themselves short on designing pieces of sh*t if they wanted to win the war.
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Plazus,
The airspeed over parts of WWII aircraft would go supersonic at higher speeds. When such a pressure wave is over a control surface, particularly the elevators, the aircraft would be in compression. This is what happened to the P-38 at higher speeds.
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Well.... this went well....
So, best I can figure for carrying this conversation forward, closest to the rail it originaly started on, is still a question - is the XIV perked because it exceeds at a quality that is conisdered unbalancing against its general variety of LWMA opponents (I am drawing the opinion that it isn't, although not dismissing that it is quite fast), or is it perked then because it exceeds at the one atribute all the rest of it's bretheren sptifires lack (this I'm thinking is the case, even though it lacks what the rest of its brotheren excell at as well... so again, is the perked price necessary?)?
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Well.... this went well....
So, best I can figure for carrying this conversation forward, closest to the rail it originaly started on, is still a question - is the XIV perked because it exceeds at a quality that is conisdered unbalancing against its general variety of LWMA opponents (I am drawing the opinion that it isn't, although not dismissing that it is quite fast), or is it perked then because it exceeds at the one atribute all the rest of it's bretheren sptifires lack (this I'm thinking is the case, even though it lacks what the rest of its brotheren excell at as well... so again, is the perked price necessary?)?
In my personal opinion, the Spit14 should either have a reduced perk cost, or no perk cost. Not just because of its performance, but because of the current game play environment. It doesn't see much usage, and is pretty equal to the 109K4 in terms of roles and performance. The Spit14 would not overbalance game play because it has relatively short range, does not carry ords, and can only carry one slipper tank, which doesn't hold a whole lot of fuel either. Spit14 usage will increase some, but I feel it would not be enough to affect the game play experience.
Therefore I support the reduction, or removal, of perk cost of the Spit14.
Plazus,
The airspeed over parts of WWII aircraft would go supersonic at higher speeds. When such a pressure wave is over a control surface, particularly the elevators, the aircraft would be in compression. This is what happened to the P-38 at higher speeds.
Yes. I am aware of that. In MachFly's previous post he mentioned that "some parts of the aircraft are moving supersonic", which lead me to believe that he was trying to say that the aircraft itself would be moving supersonic, rather than the air around it.
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It can be done, but it's a lot harder than most other planes.
Not at all, it's very easy to recover from a high speed dive in a P-38L or any other P-38 for that matter. The difficulty comes in when the pilot doesn't know what to do, which is surprising because it is very simple and just a matter of using a little bit of rudder with some throttle control. Once someone learns, it's like riding a bike and they'll never forget and diving at high speeds will no longer be an issue.
ack-ack
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Then your going to stop harassing me? LMAO Let's get this straight, in the end of the day I don't give a $h1t what you guys think or say. I think I'm the only pilot here who actually flies real airplanes so I recommend you actually pay attention to what I say.
Now I will explain why trim is useless, in the hopes that HTC will not fix.
When compression occurs some parts of the aircraft are moving supersonic. Because the airframe is not made for supersonic flight the air coming from behind your wings starts buffeting (see picture bellow). Elevators works well when the air passes smoothly other them, when it's buffeting they loose most of their effectiveness (this depends on the speed, airframe, and location of elevators). You can't pull out of a dive not because the pilot is not strong enough, but because the elevators are not doing anything.
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/2557/p38profile.gif)
Blue is the airflow
It is possible that a trim tab might be able to help, however unlikely. Trim tab changes the shape of your elevator therefore changing the airflow. So if the trim tab is shaped correctly this might work. The odds of it working are extremely low, especially since it was not designed for that purpose. Also the airplane would need to actually have a trim tab, a lot of airplanes' trim works by moving the elevator.
In Aces High using trim to get out of a dive works on every airplane, this is not right.
You are mistaking the regular compression from high speed aerodynamic airflow over the flight surfaces and not "compressibility". Compressibility is actually different from compression suffered during high speeds, the phenomena of compressibility happens, in layman's terms, when the airflow over the leading edge of the wing hits critical mach (speed of sound), pushing the center of lift back towards the tail during high speed airflow. Once the P-38 reached denser air, the pilot was usually able to recover. Also, a P-38 cannot enter into compressibility below 23,000ft as the airflow over the leading edges of the wing will not reach critical mach.
ack-ack
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Then your going to stop harassing me? LMAO Let's get this straight, in the end of the day I don't give a $h1t what you guys think or say. I think I'm the only pilot here who actually flies real airplanes so I recommend you actually pay attention to what I say.
Now I will explain why trim is useless, in the hopes that HTC will not fix.
When compression occurs some parts of the aircraft are moving supersonic. Because the airframe is not made for supersonic flight the air coming from behind your wings starts buffeting (see picture bellow). Elevators works well when the air passes smoothly other them, when it's buffeting they loose most of their effectiveness (this depends on the speed, airframe, and location of elevators). You can't pull out of a dive not because the pilot is not strong enough, but because the elevators are not doing anything.
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/2557/p38profile.gif)
Blue is the airflow
It is possible that a trim tab might be able to help, however unlikely. Trim tab changes the shape of your elevator therefore changing the airflow. So if the trim tab is shaped correctly this might work. The odds of it working are extremely low, especially since it was not designed for that purpose. Also the airplane would need to actually have a trim tab, a lot of airplanes' trim works by moving the elevator.
In Aces High using trim to get out of a dive works on every airplane, this is not right.
:huh
What parts of the airplane would you suggest are moving supersonic mr. pilot. :rolleyes:
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Now P40s ans P39s have more usage in LWA than Spitfire XIV. Why HTC team is wasting resources for making planes and then don't let us fly them? I use all my perks for Spitfire XIV but I need to kill like 50+ 109Ks to earn new ride and there is something not right in that ratio. Of course I take low eny plane and earn points quicker but this drags me away from XIV. I'm not learning it, loosing my plane quickly or playing runstang (again not learning) getting frustrated and stop flying it for a few days.
Lower the perk cost to 3 or 2 and maybe we can reach a half of the sorties Tempest has. I think it won't unbalance arena too much. :bhead
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The thread is lost and HTC will not have read this far.
BUT
The spit 14 would not break the game in MA at all if it were unperked. The 16 pilots who will switch to it, much like the 190D pilots who switched to the TA152 for the same reasons - hay man, its faster, it has better guns, and its so cool looking!! - will yank the stick in a vert stall, throw the rudder at all in a high G low e yo yo and it will spin like a top (sound familiar?) and die. They will die over and over again until they realize, like the dora pilots, that the 16 is still better (which it is). The only thing the Spit 14 will be fantastic at will be BnZ (but there are a host of other planes that can do that), and chasing down P51Ds (again, the dora can do that, but it would be nice to get something else that can too).
All in all, the 14 is actually not that great a plane for the kind of combat we do here in AH2 - it will be able to break some nice high/low situations - but the 109s and KI-84 and even the C205 can do that great already and it will run like a little girl and no one will catch it - but it will suffer from the fuel hungry nature of the spit 16. . . ultimately the spit 8/9 will remain the definitive spit because it has the lazor sighted Hispzookas and some 303s for those seemingly consistent pilot wounds (but that is because in both the 190 and 109 I seem to get a lot of 303 pilot wounds).
There is really no reason to perk it, it will see some action against bombers like the TA152, but it will not break the game below 15k where 90% of the battles take place.
The caveat argument that 'in the right hands its unstoppable' holds true for any plane. After the middle planes (109G2, Spit 8/9 etc) the performance is almost negligible and in fact, the slow speed stability of the plane, especially in the stall and in the roll become much more important then if it does a top speed 5 o 10 miles faster.
Ruah
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The thread is lost and HTC will not have read this far.
Lets keep it up then :D
BUT
The spit 14 would not break the game in MA at all if it were unperked.
:aok
BUT
I think it can be overused for only high buffs scramble. Rocket climb, high alt speed, great punch and no perk cost.
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The Bf109K-4 is much superior for intercepting a high altitude buff. The Spitfire Mk XIV's climb is nothing spectacular without WEP and the WEP would burn out before reaching high alt whereas the the Bf109K-4's WEB would still have three or four minutes left after reaching the bomber's alt.
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I've heard that comparison to the K4 before, that they are nemesis to each other, but you'd never know it in the skies of AH.
IDK, of all the spits in the skys, I loved to see spit 14's. They're not as manuverable for some reason, particularly in roll rate.
And while they have good sustained climb, I found that I could usually out zoom them.
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The thread is lost and HTC will not have read this far.
BUT
The spit 14 would not break the game in MA at all if it were unperked. The 16 pilots who will switch to it, much like the 190D pilots who switched to the TA152 for the same reasons - hay man, its faster, it has better guns, and its so cool looking!! - will yank the stick in a vert stall, throw the rudder at all in a high G low e yo yo and it will spin like a top (sound familiar?) and die. They will die over and over again until they realize, like the dora pilots, that the 16 is still better (which it is). The only thing the Spit 14 will be fantastic at will be BnZ (but there are a host of other planes that can do that), and chasing down P51Ds (again, the dora can do that, but it would be nice to get something else that can too).
All in all, the 14 is actually not that great a plane for the kind of combat we do here in AH2 - it will be able to break some nice high/low situations - but the 109s and KI-84 and even the C205 can do that great already and it will run like a little girl and no one will catch it - but it will suffer from the fuel hungry nature of the spit 16. . . ultimately the spit 8/9 will remain the definitive spit because it has the lazor sighted Hispzookas and some 303s for those seemingly consistent pilot wounds (but that is because in both the 190 and 109 I seem to get a lot of 303 pilot wounds).
There is really no reason to perk it, it will see some action against bombers like the TA152, but it will not break the game below 15k where 90% of the battles take place.
The caveat argument that 'in the right hands its unstoppable' holds true for any plane. After the middle planes (109G2, Spit 8/9 etc) the performance is almost negligible and in fact, the slow speed stability of the plane, especially in the stall and in the roll become much more important then if it does a top speed 5 o 10 miles faster.
Ruah
This is the closest to my train of thought on this matter. I can't help of thinking of our D-9 and 152 in comparison to the Spit XVI and XIV situation, the XIV's lack of equal... 'agility' in many maneuvers is a penalty that you take for trading-up for other exceptional qualities of the aircraft.
Then I've also aproached it from looking at the whole lot of LWMA aircraft, and by itself the Spit XIV doesn't seem deserving of such a punative perk cost, or at least one not so harsh... but then that would be the second time its cost has been reduced in the LWMA... maybe it is time to eradicate it or near-eradicate the cost (1-2 perkies).
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+1 unperk it :aok
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come on!
try it for 2 tours and see what happens.
And I want to shoot at it with the K4 :t
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I don't know about entirely unperking it. I imagine it would be about like the M4, or the M18 if they were free, or possibly even the Firefly with a lower perk cost (most of you remember the hordes of them before they were remodeled).
They would be very numerous, perhaps even unbalancing, as only the 190D, the 109K, and a few other fighters would have any clear speed advantage on the deck. They would possibly replace the P-51 as the stereotypical 'runner' aircraft.
But a perk price of somewhere around 2-4 would keep them from being suicide BnZ'ers, or near-capped field defenders (their stellar rate of climb and acceleration would be a great asset to them in that role). But it wouldn't be so high as to deter people from using them as bomber hunters (spits are pretty frail aircraft, and the Spit 14 is one of, if not THE, worst out of the bunch).
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Tank-Ace,
Why do you think it would be numerous? It is hard to use compared to the Spit VIII or Spit XVI and it can't carry bombs.
I really wouldn't expect it to put up great numbers.
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I think it would be numerous because of several reasons:
1) it would have the best climb-rate of any prop-driven fighter in the game (not sure on acceleration)
2) its faster than the other spitfires, and simply pretty fast, so it would be attractive to many spitdweebs, seeing as spitfires usually can't dictate the fight.
3) If it were free, there would be no cost in learning it. I've flown both the Ta-152, and the Spit 14, and I can say that the spit 14, while showing simmilar characteristics to the 152, its easier to recover from stalls, and it retains at least some of the spitfire's turning ability.
4) It would be, as I stated earlier, an ideal last-ditch defense/suicide BnZ or slasher aircraft, due to its stellar rate of climb and acceleration(?).
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1) it would have the best climb-rate of any prop-driven fighter in the game (not sure on acceleration)
Last I saw the Bf109K-4 and Spitfire Mk XVI were neck and neck with it at low altitudes where the fighting in AH.
2) its faster than the other spitfires, and simply pretty fast, so it would be attractive to many spitdweebs, seeing as spitfires usually can't dictate the fight.
This would likely be true if it weren't for the fact that it gives up almost everything people typically choose a Spitfire for.
3) If it were free, there would be no cost in learning it. I've flown both the Ta-152, and the Spit 14, and I can say that the spit 14, while showing simmilar characteristics to the 152, its easier to recover from stalls, and it retains at least some of the spitfire's turning ability.
Funny that you should mention the Ta152, it also used to be perked. How it ranks compared to the Ta152 is irrelevant. All that matters is if it would be imbalancing.
4) It would be, as I stated earlier, an ideal last-ditch defense/suicide BnZ or slasher aircraft, due to its stellar rate of climb and acceleration(?).
It would probably get used as such at times, but so what. Its low speed handling is horrible. The people taking it for that reason would be far, far better off in a Spitfire Mk XVI or Spitfire Mk VIII. Or heck, and A6M5b.
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Last I saw the Bf109K-4 and Spitfire Mk XVI were neck and neck with it at low altitudes where the fighting in AH.
Spit 14 holds slight lead
This would likely be true if it weren't for the fact that it gives up almost everything people typically choose a Spitfire for.
You mean the manuverability and EZ mode handling (only two things it gives up)? I'm sure many will gladly trade off some manuverability and handling for better speed, climb, and acceleration. Even if doesn't completly replace the other spitfires, I'm willing to bet it will replace a good number of them a good bit of the time.
Funny that you should mention the Ta152, it also used to be perked. How it ranks compared to the Ta152 is irrelevant. All that matters is if it would be imbalancing.
As I said, it displays less of the negative characteristics shared with the Ta-152, and more positive ones. Perhaps you're right, but a big reason people shy away from the 152 is that it is an absolute beast to recover from a flat spin, which isn't uncommon. If you can honestly say that a Ta-152 with 109K manuverabity wouldn't be worthy of perking, then I'll admit you have a point with this one.
It would probably get used as such at times, but so what. Its low speed handling is horrible. The people taking it for that reason would be far, far better off in a Spitfire Mk XVI or Spitfire Mk VIII. Or heck, and A6M5b.
People taking it to turn-fight would be better off with a different spit, an early model 109, an A6M, or many other planes, yes. But thats not what nessicarily makes a good defense fighter. They can't dictate the fight, they can't build energy fast enough to compete with the would-be vulchers, they just don't have the legs to make a top-notch defender.
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I think it would be numerous because of several reasons:
1) it would have the best climb-rate of any prop-driven fighter in the game (not sure on acceleration)
2) its faster than the other spitfires, and simply pretty fast, so it would be attractive to many spitdweebs, seeing as spitfires usually can't dictate the fight.
3) If it were free, there would be no cost in learning it. I've flown both the Ta-152, and the Spit 14, and I can say that the spit 14, while showing simmilar characteristics to the 152, its easier to recover from stalls, and it retains at least some of the spitfire's turning ability.
4) It would be, as I stated earlier, an ideal last-ditch defense/suicide BnZ or slasher aircraft, due to its stellar rate of climb and acceleration(?).
As near as I can tell, the majority of AH players have no interest in taking the time to learn a bird like the XIV. They'd expect it to be a Merlin bird, get confused as to why it's not as simple and give up and go back to the XVI.
What you'd end up with is a group of guys dedicated to the XIV that would be monsters in it, but never in numbers to unbalance the arenas.
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The energy generation of the Spitfire Mk XIV is negligibly better than the Spitfire Mk XVI at low altitude. The low speed handling of the Spitfire Mk XVI is significantly better than the Spitfire Mk XIV.
Also, we may be talking of different things here. I am thinking in terms of a base that has had its defenses pushed back to the point where a vulchfest is likely in the near future and defending fighters are fighting from a distinct E and altitude disadvantage.
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The energy generation of the Spitfire Mk XIV is negligibly better than the Spitfire Mk XVI at low altitude. The low speed handling of the Spitfire Mk XVI is significantly better than the Spitfire Mk XIV.
Also, we may be talking of different things here. I am thinking in terms of a base that has had its defenses pushed back to the point where a vulchfest is likely in the near future and defending fighters are fighting from a distinct E and altitude disadvantage.
You'd want your XIVs coming from the nearest base and being over the top of the 'vulch' while your XVI's would be the ones upping into the mob from below
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I'm talking about how theres either a fair sized horde coming at you, being delayed by a slightly smaller horde, but where 100's of feet and seconds can matter.
Or where there is an NOE horde that is spotted close to you're base, so you need alt and speed, and you need it now.
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I don't know about entirely unperking it. I imagine it would be about like the M4, or the M18 if they were free, or possibly even the Firefly with a lower perk cost (most of you remember the hordes of them before they were remodeled).
They would be very numerous, perhaps even unbalancing, as only the 190D, the 109K, and a few other fighters would have any clear speed advantage on the deck. They would possibly replace the P-51 as the stereotypical 'runner' aircraft.
But a perk price of somewhere around 2-4 would keep them from being suicide BnZ'ers, or near-capped field defenders (their stellar rate of climb and acceleration would be a great asset to them in that role). But it wouldn't be so high as to deter people from using them as bomber hunters (spits are pretty frail aircraft, and the Spit 14 is one of, if not THE, worst out of the bunch).
I'm playing around with it a little in the LWMA recently. Nose down + WEP on = probabley why it has a cost - I definetley see how its speed is worth the price, but it's everything else that is lacking that makes you wonder if it is really abusable beyond "runstang" style players or players who take the time to come in 5-10k above everyone else for a speed/E advantage anyways.
Lets say 10 is the current price now, I'm leaning twords suggesting a 3-5 perk price atm, simpley because I don't think any other non-perked plane can avoid engaging one that has equal or greater advantage unless the Spit XIV pilot lets it. But that's not final from me yet, I haven't had much time in it in the in MA yet to say that's definitive against K-4s, G-14s and LA-7s... this might bankrupt my perk bank, but it's kinda fun.
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Well, Devil5O5 and I winged up in spit 14's about a month or two ago, and we wailed the crap out of some F4U's, 109's, and a lala. Pilot skill and team work might have had something to do with it, but neither Devil or I have logged many minutes in the Spitfires. And its unarguably easier to fly than the Ta-152.
All evidence I've seen (stats being the exception) suggests that its worthy of a 1-2, MAYBE even 3-4 perk price. Its not as manuverable as the other spits, but its more than manuverable enough for the games that its speed and climb rate suit it for. So lets just say the jury is out on this one.
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Thank you HTCs! :cheers: :salute
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SjjLT4haIqU/T6zMXWWKh8I/AAAAAAAAGss/KW_tAXeHJCc/s1600/happy-homer.png)
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Thank you HTCs! :cheers: :salute
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SjjLT4haIqU/T6zMXWWKh8I/AAAAAAAAGss/KW_tAXeHJCc/s1600/happy-homer.png)
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Great thread :aok
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Thank you HTCs! :cheers: :salute
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SjjLT4haIqU/T6zMXWWKh8I/AAAAAAAAGss/KW_tAXeHJCc/s1600/happy-homer.png)
Great to see this happen! Woo!
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Thank you HTCs! :cheers: :salute
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SjjLT4haIqU/T6zMXWWKh8I/AAAAAAAAGss/KW_tAXeHJCc/s1600/happy-homer.png)
Yeah thanks HTC, when I seen that homer pic I actually said woooo in my head :lol