Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Reaper90 on October 29, 2011, 12:07:19 PM
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Highly underrated and under-used airframe in LW. Excellent perk farmer. Out turns spits and most everything else once they screw up and get slow (just avoid Zekes and Brews, obviously!).
Warning! (attracts pickers like flies who will disengage and run from multiple cons to try to pick you off whomever you're owning at the moment!)
But seriously, I don't think I had ever flown it more than once or twice before Thursday night, and inside of the course of about 2 hours I was averaging anywhere from 3-4 kills per sortie and collected over 120 fighter perks. Nice little ride.
Other point of note, I noticed it seems to dive very well..... but from everything I've read the 110c had a bad tendancy to shed its entire tail under the strain of a high speed dive. Any thoughts from you historians?
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As long as you fly teh dump truck my K/D will improve. :D
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The 110C is highly under rated but the weak gun package is what I think keeps it from being used more. That and most people probably think it flys like the G.
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As long as you fly teh dump truck my K/D will improve. :D
LOL as long as you stay in that D pony at 400 mph in a cloud of friendlies, you're right!
Obviously the 110c has little chance in the vertical against LW rides like the pony and K4 and isn't gonna win a fight where the driver of the LW uber ride flies his bird correctly. In a furball, however, it holds its own well, though, and can surprise people I think, especially Spit drivers who try to get slow and reverse it. 90% of the time when they tried that they found my 110c floating there, throttled back and flaps out, and they had reversed themselves right into being in front of my nose mounted 20's, inside of D200. :aok
The 110C is highly under rated but the weak gun package is what I think keeps it from being used more.
4 .30 cals and 2 20mm's, nose mounted, roughly the same gun package as the MW spitfires (although I'm pretty sure I remember the German 20mm wasn't quite the laser beam that the Hispano 20mm is) and better than the 109's that don't carry the tater.
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That and most people probably think it flys like the G.
Truth, and they couldn't be more wrong. The 110c and the 110g are as far apart (as far as flight characteristics are concerned) as a A6M2 and a Niki, or a 109F and a 190D-9.
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yeah the C model turns alot better then the G. If I had to dogfight in one the C is what i'd want.
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The Bf110 and the Hurricane remain my two biggest skepticisms flight model wise in this game. I still think that if the Bf110C-4b, Hurricane Mk I, Bf109E-4 and Spitfire Mk Ia performed in reality like they do in Aces High we'd have the Bf110K-4 vs the Hurricane Mk XIV debate and the Bf109 and Spitfire would have been phased out. There is little or no indication that the Bf109E-4 and Spitfire Mk Ia were the superior fighters of the Battle of Britain here.
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I used to consider 110s easy kills, Until i encountered Fish in the DA, and took a ava rocket to the cocpit.
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The Bf110 and the Hurricane remain my two biggest skepticisms flight model wise in this game. I still think that if the Bf110C-4b, Hurricane Mk I, Bf109E-4 and Spitfire Mk Ia performed in reality like they do in Aces High we'd have the Bf110K-4 vs the Hurricane Mk XIV debate and the Bf109 and Spitfire would have been phased out. There is little or no indication that the Bf109E-4 and Spitfire Mk Ia were the superior fighters of the Battle of Britain here.
I don't know, at least with respect to the 110c it does appear to be more nimble in-game than it historically should be, but I think the big factor is the planes it easily out-turns and gets the better of in a turnfight in LW are planes that shouldn't be turnfighting it to begin with, such as slow ponies and 190A's....
Just like in BoB if an AH Bf110c were to run into a Spit1 or Hurricane 1, it would be eaten alive unless the 110c had a big e-advantage.
I've flown Spit 1's and Hurri 1's in a couple of AH BoB snapshots, and the 109E's were more than a match for the Spits and Hurris, unless they got low, slow, and outnumbered. When they stayed high, kept their e up, and flew smart they tore our Hurricanes up.
The problem with AH seems to be that it's not how supposedly inferior plane that's doing the killing is modelled incorrectly, but that the supposedly superior plane being killed is being flown incorrectly.
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Reaper he might mean in the right circumstances.
Myself I remember having an OK time in BoB scenarios while flying 110C. It sure didn't feel like the superior plane there. We could outrun at least the Hurricanes (IIRC), but in the 109/110/Spit/Hurri furballs the 110 was undoubtedly, even if only marginally, not the best tool for the job.
nm, you said the same
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The 110c is a sleeper and can PWN most that underestimate it! One of my favorite rides.
JUGgler
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The 110c is a sleeper and can PWN most that underestimate it! One of my favorite rides.
JUGgler
Prove it! My memory is short. MA is open. :D
:noid
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The Spitfire was the 110C's undoing during the Battle of Britain. The 110C actually enjoyed success against the Hurricane early in the battle, and later in Africa. The 110C was significantly faster than the Hurricane, dived faster, had a better gun package and of course far greater range. Range wasn't an issue for the Hurricane during the Battle of Britain, but on other fronts like in Africa it was a clear strategic advantage for the 110. The rear-gunner was also an advantage, not so much for the gun itself, but because of the extra pair of eyes searching the sky. Most kills in WWII never saw who killed them.
The 110's bad reputation from the Battle of Britain is often overstated and really doesn't reflect its versatility and successes on other fronts and in other roles. During August and September 1940, the 110C units claimed 213 British aircraft destroyed (9 night claims) for the loss of 199 110's to enemy action (+10 losses in non operational flights and 12 in landing accidents). The majority of those claims were RAF fighters, and even taking some over-claiming into consideration the 110C's statistics in the Battle of Britain are not as bad as most people think.
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The Germans overclaimed by more than three to one in those months, you know.
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110C can surprise some, but let's not go calling it "uber" and "can own any plane in the game" and so forth.
AI have flown it in the LWA many times, in an attempt to catch people unawares... If you can get into a flat turn, you have a chance. Getting TO that point is what kills you. Over and over. You have no pilot armor on your glass canopy. You have a slow acceleration and slow climb rate. Your roll rate isn't stellar... If you start out behind somebody you have a good chance of finishing them off.... until the 3 others pick you off, that is.
Overall in the LWA environment the 110C can be a fun challenge, but you'll spend more time getting to and from the fight, figthing smart, and avoiding nasty situations, than you will getting kills.
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110C can surprise some
exacly
but let's not go calling it "uber" and "can own any plane in the game" and so forth.
no one has even hinted at that, not in this thread
AI have flown it in the LWA many times, in an attempt to catch people unawares... If you can get into a flat turn, you have a chance. Getting TO that point is what kills you. Over and over. You have no pilot armor on your glass canopy. You have a slow acceleration and slow climb rate. Your roll rate isn't stellar... If you start out behind somebody you have a good chance of finishing them off.... until the 3 others pick you off, that is.
Overall in the LWA environment the 110C can be a fun challenge, but you'll spend more time getting to and from the fight, figthing smart, and avoiding nasty situations, than you will getting kills.
I've had the most fun in it when the fights are close to our base, and when it's not a horde coming in but 3-5 cons, and we have roughly equal numbers defending. But it does attract bad guys like flies.
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The Germans overclaimed by more than three to one in those months, you know.
Bomber crews on both sides were notorious for over-claiming kills (for many understandable reasons mind you). I don't think the fighter pilots over-claimed nearly that much.
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Bomber crews on both sides were notorious for over-claiming kills (for many understandable reasons mind you). I don't think the fighter pilots over-claimed nearly that much.
As the Battle of Britain progressed German kill claims got further and further from reality. It was not just the bombers doing it either. Frankly, given the armaments of the bombers they'd have to to have been nuts to believe it if the claims were from the bombers, but the Luftwaffe did believe the kill claims and thought the RAF was down to "its last 50 Spitfires".
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Also, I've never understood the "number crunchers" who insists on every kill needs to be accounted for as a loss on the other side. The were many German aerial victories that ended with a ditched Spitfire in a field with the pilot ok and air frame repairable. A few weeks later that same Spit was up again fighting the Luftwaffe. It's still a victory for the German pilot and it would not be recorded as a loss for RAF.
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As the Battle of Britain progressed German kill claims got further and further from reality. It was not just the bombers doing it either. Frankly, given the armaments of the bombers they'd have to to have been nuts to believe it if the claims were from the bombers, but the Luftwaffe did believe the kill claims and thought the RAF was down to "its last 50 Spitfires".
That's due more to bad intelligence on the German side. While the Germans had to send their aircraft to Germany to be repaired, the British were extremely efficient in salvaging and repairing damaged aircraft. Airframes the the Luftwaffe would have scrapped were shipped to the Civilian Repair Organisation, which managed to repair 4196 aircraft between July and December. 60% of aircraft believed to be unrepairable at the aircraft stations were rebuilt, with the contributions of organisations such as British Railways and London Transport. The GErmans would quite understandably believe these aircraft destroyed.
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Also, I've never understood the "number crunchers" who insists on every kill needs to be accounted for as a loss on the other side. The were many German aerial victories that ended with a ditched Spitfire in a field with the pilot ok and air frame repairable. A few weeks later that same Spit was up again fighting the Luftwaffe. It's still a victory for the German pilot and it would not be recorded as a loss for RAF.
I'd argue that, from a military perspective, that was not a kill.
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I'd argue that, from a military perspective, that was not a kill.
Yeah but the LW pilot wouldn't know any different to him it was a kill.
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Yeah but the LW pilot wouldn't know any different to him it was a kill.
Somehow the Finnish pilots managed to not overclaim. The Russians recorded more losses to the Finns than the Finns recorded kills. I think you're making excuses for the horrible accuracy of German kill claims in the Battle of Britain.
Yes, B-17 and B-24 gunners overclaimed at a rate of about 10 to 1, but high command knew the claims were BS, letting them stand for morale reasons. They didn't make operational plans based on those claims.
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Somehow the Finnish pilots managed to not overclaim. The Russians recorded more losses to the Finns than the Finns recorded kills. I think you're making excuses for the horrible accuracy of German kill claims in the Battle of Britain.
Yes, B-17 and B-24 gunners overclaimed at a rate of about 10 to 1, but high command knew the claims were BS, letting them stand for morale reasons. They didn't make operational plans based on those claims.
I was talking about that one scenario predator used. In that instance the LW pilot probably didn't even see the spitfire ditch. I don't know why they over claimed or even if there is truth to that statement.
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110C's in the Battle of Britain scenario are quite good if they are flown to their strengths, which is not escort flying along 200 yards from the bombers at the same speed as the bombers. If they hang out way over the top of the bombers and use their speed to get in on attackers and climb to get back up to their perch, they can be quite dangerous. I wonder if their performance in the real Battle of Britain had to do with how they were used.
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Karnak, the issue is the 110C's performance in the Battle of Britain, not the state of damage of the defeated RAF fighters in question or the strategic impact etc. We all know the Jerries lost and that they way overestimated the RAF casualties. An aerial victory is an aerial victory if the enemy is a smoking hole in the ground or pouring smoke from the oil radiator and diving away to an uncertain fate. Whether that should count as a painted mark on the tail is not important in this context.
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If we advance one year in the war to 1941 the situation was reversed. Now the RAF are conducting aggressive fighter sweeps over France and the Channel attempting to relieve the Soviets by keeping the pressure up on the Luftwaffe in the west. During the period of June to December the RAF claimed 711 Luftwaffe fighters shot down, while losing 411 of its own fighters. Losses according to Luftwaffe records were reportedly just 103 fighters. Should we then conclude that the German fighters were vastly superior to the British with a 4:1 kill ratio? Of course not. The Germans were simply enjoying the same advantage as the RAF did a year earlier in that crippling damage didn't necessarily mean certain destruction when fighting over friendly territory. I'm quite sure that the RAF actually won more or less 700 victories in the air.
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no one has even hinted at that, not in this thread
See JUGgler's post a few above mine.
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110C's in the Battle of Britain scenario are quite good if they are flown to their strengths, which is not escort flying along 200 yards from the bombers at the same speed as the bombers. If they hang out way over the top of the bombers and use their speed to get in on attackers and climb to get back up to their perch, they can be quite dangerous. I wonder if their performance in the real Battle of Britain had to do with how they were used.
So far as I have read, no. The Bf110s did very poorly even before Goering issued the close escort order. The problem with being above like you describe relies on no Spitfires or Hurricanes showing up near, or above, your altitude.
Anecdotal, but Bob Doe, who considered himself the worst pilot in his squadron and was sure he was going to die on his first combat sortie, shot two Bf110s down on that first combat sortie, including the one that dove on his Spitfire.
PR3D4TOR,
When somebody uses the kills claimed vs 110s lost as evidence of how good they were, the veracity of those claims becomes important.
The fact is, deny it though you may, the Bf110 was not a match for the Spitfire or Hurricane. It was not a match for the D.520 either. It did well until it met fighters that were as modern as it was, then it did poorly.
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See JUGgler's post a few above mine.
He said "it's a sleeper and can pwn most that underestimate it."
What he said and what you say he said are two totally different things.
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No need to over-think it. He "hinted at it" like you suggest, and I replied. No biggy.
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No need to over-think it. He "hinted at it" like you suggest, and I replied. No biggy.
:huh Umm, I don't think I hinted at anything, my statement was clear and unambiguous. Krusty I think you have over thought it! Just my $.02 :aok
JUGgler
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The 110c is a sleeper and can PWN most that underestimate it! One of my favorite rides.
JUGgler
Just for clarification !!! :aok
:salute
JUGgler
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The 110c is a sleeper and can PWN most that underestimate it! One of my favorite rides.
JUGgler
Prove it! :bolt:
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I got what you were saying Juggler. No need to worry about it, was simply clarifying for my squaddie there.
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I got what you were saying Juggler. No need to worry about it, was simply clarifying for my squaddie there.
LOL! you were the one who was confused! JUGgler and I were saying the same thing......... :aok
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Highly underrated and under-used airframe in LW. Excellent perk farmer. Out turns spits and most everything else once they screw up and get slow (just avoid Zekes and Brews, obviously!).
Warning! (attracts pickers like flies who will disengage and run from multiple cons to try to pick you off whomever you're owning at the moment!)
But seriously, I don't think I had ever flown it more than once or twice before Thursday night, and inside of the course of about 2 hours I was averaging anywhere from 3-4 kills per sortie and collected over 120 fighter perks. Nice little ride.
Other point of note, I noticed it seems to dive very well..... but from everything I've read the 110c had a bad tendancy to shed its entire tail under the strain of a high speed dive. Any thoughts from you historians?
110 seems like hurris to me. When I'm approaching one, I'm always ready for the 180 deg full facial. They are dangerous if you givem enough room to snap around on you, or if you make the mistake of overshooting them. If you get in close, and match speed, I think they roll and accelerate too slow compared to the single engine stuff and they become easy pickings.
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you were the one who was confused! JUGgler and I were saying the same thing
Perhaps. What he said hinted at a hidden performance/capability. I'm not making a big deal out of it and if we're all in agreement then it's so much the better. It appears we all agree then.
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Perhaps. What he said hinted at a hidden performance/capability. I'm not making a big deal out of it and if we're all in agreement then it's so much the better. It appears we all agree then.
Your statement should have read. "Contrary to what JUGgler clearly said, I am redefining his message and intent so I can agree to disagree with the argument that really was not an argument at all! Therefore I can show how right I am and never defer my superiority to anyone!"
Krusty
How's that?
:aok
JUGgler
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Uh, no. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. Asked and asnwered, any amiguity is already cleared up, nothing more to discuss. Old news.
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Krusty I think you have over thought it
OMG You mean he told someone they were doing what he himself was doing. Wrap your head around that one.
Uh, no. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. Asked and asnwered, any amiguity is already cleared up, nothing more to discuss. Old news.
You can't even admit you're wrong. You'd sooner accuse them of making moutain of molehills, and insist on it till that molehill's a mountain... than simply say, hey you're right. I misread. Or something simple and honest like that.
What's next - telling Juggler he has changed and isn't the old juggler or some nonsense like that? That's a rhetorical question.
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you were the one who was confused!
Perhaps.
Asked and answered. Only reason to go on about it is to derail the topic. There was nothing so objectionable in my post as to warrant this much criticism, especially considering it was only one line that's being picked out, and the rest of the content was agreed with.
P.S. Moot editing more insults into his post... classic...
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It's not even an insult! :rofl It's exactly what youve been doing.
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OMG You mean he told someone they were doing what he himself was doing. Wrap your head around that one.
You can't even admit you're wrong. You'd sooner accuse them of making moutain of molehills, and insist on it till that molehill's a mountain... than simply say, hey you're right. I misread. Or something simple and honest like that.
What's next - telling Juggler he has changed and isn't the old juggler or some nonsense like that? That's a rhetorical question.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
As I've always said, " the awesome awsomeness of Krusty's awesomeness is awesomely awesome! :aok
We all pale in comparison!
JUGgler