Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Tank-Ace on October 31, 2011, 09:52:58 PM
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Haven't been able to fly them against actual opponents. How do they stack up against some of the more common LW rides, what about the MW ones?
They very popular?
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None of the aircraft handle like the older models, imo. First, HTC correctly modeled the E more closely (no WEP), and the C (old B) now has a DT and 500lbs bomb available. The C too is a bit more lively on the controls. The F seems to be the race horse. Even though it is the heaviest of the P40's, the Merlin engine really pulls it along nicely. The F also seems to be the most lively at mid to higher alts. The N has better WEP performance down low, but it doesnt last long.
Vs LW aircraft, if the pilot can keep his wits about him and maintain its E and not get into a blatant turn fight or out n out run-n-gun fight it will be fine. I like both the F and the N for high speed attacks, but the urge to immediately re-engage the target has to be tamed since the P40 needs all the alt and speed it can get. Oddly enough, without looking it up, I think most of my victims have have been targets that I've been able to out turn at high speeds (zekes, etc) or aircraft that I've been able to match in a dive because I was able to hold my me long enough to get the guns in them.
IN short, they are good but not for the inexperienced or real eager players. Patience, intuition, and proper ACM will carry the day for a crutch plane it is not. :D
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First, HTC correctly modeled the E more closely (no WEP)
I think the correct thing to say might be HTC modeled the early US -E. The WEP was perfectly allowable, considering a later 1943 version where those extra power settings were allowed for short term periods of time. This rather limits our -E to a very narrow time window, BUT, I think this is okay because we have the F for later scenarios/setups. It does limit the -E's viability in the LWA, though.
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I'll start working on shark teeth skins....
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None of the aircraft handle like the older models, imo.
Agreed. Have only played around with the F and N so far. Unlike SmokinLoon, I am having no success with either model, even varying the gun and ammo loadouts. I sense that, at least within the AvA crowd, my experience is not unique. My preliminary conclusion is that the new P-40s fly very much like they were supposed to have flown in real life, and hence they will be similarly uncompetitive here.
- oldman
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Some minor changes were also felt that ended up reducing the overall "monster"-ness of the La-7 and the N1K2 when they were remodeled, as well. I think it's just that they are able to better represent the aerodynamics/physics/whatever now that they're updating the older rides.
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The first attempt by the 80th to fly formation with the new P-40's ended in a predictable manner, when asked for comment former-CO CorkyJr was quoted as saying "at least we got a nice tight grouping this time".
(http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq209/Soulyss/20fae32398cd.jpg)
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No obvious jokes? Okay then....
That's the infamous RAAF "Ostrich" squadron... They were quickly disbanded but the RAAF never could pull those P-40s out of the ground afterwards!
:banana:
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(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGylC0bzbF0ffItrNelAVUfkj2R2FuxWd1gcMREfRM115NQPXRwg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVR2pPFnkDU&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVR2pPFnkDU&feature=related)
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flaps been fixed yet or do they still deploy at 195mph?
ack-ack
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flaps been fixed yet or do they still deploy at 195mph?
ack-ack
Haven't tested but from the notes on 2.26 patch 2
Revised the flap speeds on the P-40s.
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Haven't tested but from the notes on 2.26 patch 2
Patch 2 was I believe the patch that incorrectly raised the flap speed to 195mph.
ack-ack
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I haven't played with it, but I thought from reading the forums the flaps were too SLOW, and the patch brought them back up to the other P-40 speeds ?
:headscratch:
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190 and 109 pilots routinely used flaps in combat at speeds in excess of 300mph. German manuals only give speeds for flap use at LANDING only, not the speeds at which they can be safely during flight. Jugs, OTOH can use them
at speeds way above 300, even though it says right in the d-11 cockpit (in game!) Do not lower flaps above 195mph!
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b36/legionaires/thm_41724.jpg)I haven't played with it, but I thought from reading the forums the flaps were too SLOW, and the patch brought them back up to the other P-40 speeds ?
:headscratch:
Correct, they now lower a notch at 195 or so...
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190 and 109 pilots routinely used flaps in combat at speeds in excess of 300mph. German manuals only give speeds for flap use at LANDING only, not the speeds at which they can be safely during flight. Jugs, OTOH can use them
at speeds way above 300, even though it says right in the d-11 cockpit (in game!) Do not lower flaps above 195mph!
I am likewise skeptical that the Ki-84's combat maneuvering flaps could not be used above 168mph, but I have not been able to find anything to support that. It is pretty much unimaginable that a plane built for speed would have a combat setting that could only be used that slow.
The planned frill airbrake on fighter Mosquitoes was canceled when it was found that the same effect could be had by lowering the landing gear of the Mosquito. Try that in AH and you'll lose the landing gear.
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Where do you guys get those manuals. I'm looking for some to go along with my models
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I haven't played with it, but I thought from reading the forums the flaps were too SLOW, and the patch brought them back up to the other P-40 speeds ?
:headscratch:
The speed the flaps had deployed at originally (140mph) was the correct speed as stated in the flight manual for the P-40, the current speed is incorrect and should be reverted back to the correct speed. If all the other planes are held to the speeds stated in the flight manuals then the same should apply to the P-40.
ack-ack
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But they aren't. No where that I've seen in the german aircraft manuals does it explicitly say not to lower flaps above 300km/hr, but thats the limit for the 109.
The P-47 cocpit (in-game) says don't lower flaps above 195mph (I belive I've seen some manuals that say don't lower flaps above 225mph, but don't quote me on that), but they have them available right upto 375 IIRC.
Don't know about the Ki-84, I'm not an expert on Japanese aircraft.
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The speed the flaps had deployed at originally (140mph) was the correct speed as stated in the flight manual for the P-40, the current speed is incorrect and should be reverted back to the correct speed. If all the other planes are held to the speeds stated in the flight manuals then the same should apply to the P-40.
ack-ack
140 mph represents speed limit for deploying full flaps, according to AVG pilot Eric Shilling..... Moreover, the pilot's manual states not to retract flaps at speeds below 160 mph.
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Haven't been able to fly them against actual opponents. How do they stack up against some of the more common LW rides, what about the MW ones?
They very popular?
Get a active account then complain.................
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140 mph represents speed limit for deploying full flaps, according to AVG pilot Eric Shilling..... Moreover, the pilot's manual states not to retract flaps at speeds below 160 mph.
I believe that retraction was for taking off with a full DT, and more of a CYA than a mechanical failing. I've seen them retracted at no speed before, up and down really fast in WW2 footage of a P-40 on the ground.
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Moreover, the pilot's manual states not to retract flaps at speeds below 160 mph.
Only for taking off with 170 gallon drop tank but that doesn't change the fact that flaps can be currently deployed at 195mph, which according to the flight manual is incorrect. The manual states, "CAUTION: DO NOT LOWER WHEN AIRSPEED IS ABOVE 140MPH". Nowhere in the flight manual does it indicate that caution is for full flaps.
ack-ack
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The speed the flaps had deployed at originally (140mph) was the correct speed as stated in the flight manual for the P-40, the current speed is incorrect and should be reverted back to the correct speed. If all the other planes are held to the speeds stated in the flight manuals then the same should apply to the P-40.
ack-ack
I understand the "by the book" theory, but anyone who has spoken with a pilot of WWII knows that those pilots did things they were not supposed to do either because they could or because they had to.
The current 160 mph (?) flap deployment is more accurate to the manual than where it was at in the old models. Give some take some.
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I understand the "by the book" theory, but anyone who has spoken with a pilot of WWII knows that those pilots did things they were not supposed to do either because they could or because they had to.
The current 160 mph (?) flap deployment is more accurate to the manual than where it was at in the old models. Give some take some.
"By the book" is how the deployment speeds for flaps are modeled for all planes, it would be incorrect to make an exception for the P-40 when all other planes are held do the speeds dictated by the flight manuals.
ack-ack
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AKAK, then can you explain the P-47? 190 and 109?
I've seen manuals stating "don't lower above..." speeds for the P-47 flaps, usually in the 190-230mph range, yet P-47's have them available upto 375mph.
And I've seen speeds for LANDING FLAPS for the 109 and 190, but never anything where it explicitly says "do not open 10 degrees of flaps above 300km/hr (or about 195mph)", yet thats the in-game limit for combat flaps, not just landing flaps.
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AKAK, then can you explain the P-47? 190 and 109?
I don't have to explain to show the flaps are deployed in the P-40 at the incorrect speeds as stated in the manual.
ack-ack
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I know, but I was wondering if you knew. I don't know how, but you're usually pretty on top of things in the realism department.
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Additional data on the P-40...
http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40N-Flight%20Limits.pdf (http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40N-Flight%20Limits.pdf)
http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40E,K%20&%20N%20data.pdf (http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40E,K%20&%20N%20data.pdf)
http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40E%20vs%20N%20data.pdf (http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40E%20vs%20N%20data.pdf)
http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40N%20RAAF%20A29-412%20&%20418%20Test.pdf (http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40N%20RAAF%20A29-412%20&%20418%20Test.pdf)
All from this website: http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/p40_data.htm (http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/p40_data.htm)
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Where do you guys get those manuals. I'm looking for some to go along with my models
http://www.flight-manuals.com/ (http://www.flight-manuals.com/)
Great source for all manuals! :aok
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Thanks Clerick
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Additional data on the P-40...
http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40N-Flight%20Limits.pdf (http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40N-Flight%20Limits.pdf)
http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40E,K%20&%20N%20data.pdf (http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40E,K%20&%20N%20data.pdf)
http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40E%20vs%20N%20data.pdf (http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40E%20vs%20N%20data.pdf)
http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40N%20RAAF%20A29-412%20&%20418%20Test.pdf (http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/P40N%20RAAF%20A29-412%20&%20418%20Test.pdf)
All from this website: http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/p40_data.htm (http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/p40_data.htm)
here is the subdirectory
http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/ (http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/)
:salute
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This is an interesting document. It describes combat units resetting maximum MAP to 66 inches (in some cases 70 inches), which generates as much as 1,770 hp in the Kittyhawk. Allison points out that while this may work well enough in the P-40E/Kittyhawk, it is not acceptable for the P-40K, P-40N, P-39N and P-39Q (-81, -83 and -85 engines listed in the document) due to higher intake temperatures with those engines. Reliability with the -39 and -73 engines had apparently been very good, despite the abuse.
I can only guess at the increase in performance associated with nearly 1,800 hp in a P-40, but I would imagine speeds in the 345-350 mph range at sea level, with substantial increase in climb rate. That would make for a formidable P-40.
http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/Allison%201710-39%20abuse.pdf (http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/Allison%201710-39%20abuse.pdf)
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I'm not quite so sure. Look at the boost in HP from the P-40C to the P-40N. That large of an increase in hp only yields about a 25mph increase in level speed on the deck.
I think the P-40 had some serious drag issues that limited its speed.
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I'm not quite so sure. Look at the boost in HP from the P-40C to the P-40N. That large of an increase in hp only yields about a 25mph increase in level speed on the deck.
I think the P-40 had some serious drag issues that limited its speed.
You think? The P-40E had a drag coefficient of .0242, which is about average for a WWII vintage fighter.
The P-40C had 1,040 hp at take off, the P-40E had 1,150 hp, and the heavier P-40N had 1,200 hp for take off. The N had a combat power rating of 1,360 hp. That's a relatively modest increase in power over many models. Another 400+ hp should result in at least 345 mph at sea level.
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320 hp isn't inconsiderable. Boost the 109K4's engine by 320hp, and you would likely have something comperable to the Tempest.
Another 400hp would maybe kick it upto 330mph, but I doubt 345. The faster you go, the more drag there is, and the more power it takes to go even faster.
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The German flap speed chart for 109 says 109 can safely use up to 20 degrees of its infinetely adjustable flaps at speeds of 450 kph, which is 280mph!
Some P40 manuals say not to even start to raise flaps till you hit 160 when taking off!
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Stumbled across this USAAF document on limitations to be observed while flying the P-40 that covers the E, K, M, and N models.
P-40 Limitations (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?h0wnprl7xa384au)
ack-ack
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The German flap speed chart for 109 says 109 can safely use up to 20 degrees of its infinetely adjustable flaps at speeds of 450 kph, which is 280mph!
Some P40 manuals say not to even start to raise flaps till you hit 160 when taking off!
Again, the same old mis-representation...
The flaps could retract at any speed below that all day long. This 160 was for full load with a drop tank, and was to keep wet-behind-the-ear pilots from stalling out and crashing. It was doctrine based, not a limitation.
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Its a speed restriction for lowering flaps. To full down. P-40 can lower them to full down right at 140 just like its supposed to.
Partial lowering is another can of worms.
Almost every fighter currently in Aces High that has variable flap settings (like the P-40) can drop partial (1/4-1/5 notch) flaps above 175 mph: Ki-61, Ki-84, A6M, 109, 190, 110, P-39, P38, P-51, P-47, C.202, C.205, F4U, F6F, F4F, Brewster, Yak-9T, Yak-9U, LA-5, LA-7, and Mosquito can all do it.
HTC has it correct.
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Squire, read it again. He's talking about a retraction restriction (as in don't retract them slower than this speed) as part of the basis for what speed they can be deployed.
I would doubt pilots used it much [ed: on the P-40s]. With minimal motion the hydraulic pumps shot those flaps out full in a second. Trying to get any fine-tuning, or "combat turning" setting would be an exercise in optomism.
Some planes just didn't have combat flaps. Despite how this game models them as some wonder tool, they just were not as useful in WW2. I always thought the high-speed flap deployment on the previous generation P-40E was rather high.
Do we even have any one combat report or official manual stating P-40s used flaps for combat manuvering? If not we should just give them single-stage flaps like the Hurr1, right?
:devil
:bolt:
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Its a speed restriction for lowering flaps. To full down. P-40 can lower them to full down right at 140 just like its supposed to.
Nowhere in the flight manuals or in that document I posted state that its the max speed for deployment of full flaps, the cautions clearly state do not lower flaps above 140mph IAS.
ack-ack
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This is what Pyro stated in the other thread.
The data posted is not mutually exclusive. Some planes will have a different max speed for deploying the flaps than the max speed for having the flaps down. In AH we only have one speed per flap setting, so we have to bridge those differences as best we can.
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(as in don't retract them slower than this speed)
No, it says "Maximum permissable speed" as in dont lower them faster than 140 mph IAS. Same as the Landing gear speed restriction "Maximum permissable speed" as in don't lower the gear faster than 170 mph IAS. Thats for either taking of, landing or level flight. Its a do-not-exceed speed.
Nowhere in the flight manuals or in that document I posted state that its the max speed for deployment of full flaps, the cautions clearly state do not lower flaps above 140mph IAS.
...and nowhere in the flight manual does it state its referring to partial flaps. Lowering means lowering. To the down position. The 140 restriction for the down flaps is modelled in the game correctly.
Do we even have any one combat report or official manual stating P-40s used flaps for combat manuvering? If not we should just give them single-stage flaps like the Hurr1, right?
Why would they model the aircraft with single stage flaps when they didn't have them? sorry you have lost me there. Or is we just do that for certain planes that you don't like?
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Was going to add re the flaps used in Aces High. I am all for having the flaps jam in the position they are in if and when the max speed restrictions modelled are exceeded. Im not a fan of the auto retracting flaps. With that modelled in the game you would quickly find many not dropping flaps all the time every time. Not just for the P-40...for all of them. Players would have to pay attention to IAS and actually be familiar with the various safety settings of the planes. Perhaps have an "ez mode" flight setting similar to auto trim that would enable newbies to fly them and the flaps would only deploy if the gear was lowered. If later they wanted to disable that in settings thats fine but then they are taking that step knowing that if they mess up their flaps will jam.
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From the P-38 flight manual. "Wing flaps down" as in full down. No parsing words here I guess. "DOWN" doesn't require any complicated explanation to its multiple hidden meanings in english. Btw when the manuals say to retract gear is that full up? just wondering.
b. NORMAL LANDING
1. Tank selector valves to MAIN or RESERVE whichever contains the most fuel.
2. Mixture control AUTO-RICH.
3. Propeller levers to about 2600 rpm position.
4. Electric fuel pumps ON.
4a Check landing gear warning horn switch for ON.
5. Landing gear DOWN (not over 175 mph).
6. Pump the brake pedals a few minutes to ensure that brakes are working.
7. Wing flaps DOWN (not over 150 mph).
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Was going to add re the flaps used in Aces High. I am all for having the flaps jam in the position they are in if and when the max speed restrictions modelled are exceeded.
The problem with that is people could and would let them jam, knowing once they are jammed they would never retract at higher speeds, allowing them to exploit the game, finish their fight in an unrealistic way, and then fly home for a new plane. Say the jam point is N mph, so the pilot could jam it then keep making wild manuvers in a hairy dogfight at N+100, N+200, even making hard dives and pulling out in the vertical (and with the flaps still "working" would be able to pull major moves).
I'd much rathe the flaps SNAP OFF and disappear, with all additional lift GONE. That way you wouldn't intentionally jam them.
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How do the "new" p-40s compair to the airacobras? When last I played the 40s appeared to be too agile when compared to the 39s. This looks slightly contradictory from what I have read.
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They felt less like a slow spitfire when I tried a couple out offline. The old P-40 would be surprisingly nimble (inaccurately so, I'd argue). I think it's a lot more in-line with historical accounts now. Just a bit more sluggish.
In hindsight that's also how I'd describe the La-7 and N1K2 when they were redone. Just a tad less responsive. Just a tad less capable. Maybe it's such a small margin that it's placebo effect, but that's how it feels to me so far.
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I've found the P40N to be a particularly lethal GV bomber. It can get around quick and put 500lbs right where you want it.
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I haven't tried that yet, but since the bombs got removed from my 109E/F, I'm lacking a "cool" jabo. I'll definitely have to try that on the P-40N!
I wonder what climbs faster? 3-bomb P-40N or 3-bomb (and rkt?) P-47?
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The P40N w/ %50 fuel and 3/500 lbs climbs at roughly 1300ft a min at low level, I dont remember if that was with or w/o WEP. FWIW, the P40N has a major performance boost with WEP at lower altitudes.
Overall, I think the F is my favorite for air to air combat. The wee bit extra speed is nice. Im not exactly sure of the slightly heavier weight actually hinders it at all. Time will tell.
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About that... It doesn't make sense to me. Why should the P-40N have such a difference between mil and WEP?
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=120&p2=72&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
It's not all that much faster at FTH than the E or F, but its milpower is that much slower! Shouldn't it be more like a P-40E without WEP?
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Not entirely sure on this source I found, but it says the P-40E has 1150, P-40F has 1300, and the P-40N had 1325 (doesn't mention if those numbers are at military power, or WEP).
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Was going to add re the flaps used in Aces High. I am all for having the flaps jam in the position they are in if and when the max speed restrictions modelled are exceeded. Im not a fan of the auto retracting flaps. With that modelled in the game you would quickly find many not dropping flaps all the time every time. Not just for the P-40...for all of them. Players would have to pay attention to IAS and actually be familiar with the various safety settings of the planes. Perhaps have an "ez mode" flight setting similar to auto trim that would enable newbies to fly them and the flaps would only deploy if the gear was lowered. If later they wanted to disable that in settings thats fine but then they are taking that step knowing that if they mess up their flaps will jam.
In terms of the P-40s, if the pilot moves the flap control to "Neutral", as he's supposed to do after lowering them to where he wants them, the flaps will not jam at speeds in excess of the 140 mph. They will simply blow up.
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They will simply blow up.
I could see that being a motivator to keep them within parameters. Oh well its a topic that has been driven around before more than a few times on the BBS.