Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: TheRhino on November 15, 2011, 04:24:33 AM
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This has probably been mentioned thousands of times, but I think that U-boats and subs should be the next thing added to the game.
(http://adjunct.diodon349.com/us_subs/dbf_photos/guppy_book_pg_9.jpg)
Any comments would be appreciated. :salute
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Do a fly-by of a port, and take a close look.
Wish granted. :noid
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Do a fly-by of a port, and take a close look.
Wish granted. :noid
Yah but we cant use them
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Yah but we cant use them
Exactly my point. I know that we already hav "ragdoll" subs (for want of a better term), but we should also have mannable submersable vehicles.
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Exactly my point. I know that we already hav "ragdoll" subs (for want of a better term), but we should also have mannable submersable vehicles.
WTF?!?!?! That guy just flew under the map! HACKS!!!!
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(http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/11844550/images/1282939758564.gif)
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A mid-war German U-boat? The Pt boats could hear those diesel engines coming.
Could the programmers develop an underwater terrain that interfaces with the current terrain? hmmmmmmmmmmm
(http://www.underwaterworld.com.au/images/bg-body.jpg)
Would be fun if the carrier group or the Pt boats could fight the submarines.
The Pt boats could spawn camp the port to prevent subs from getting out. :D
The subs would also need remote spawns near enemy ports to cut down the time
getting to the fight, much like the GV remote spawns.
Instead of Sheep...............Mermaids? LOL.
:aok
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This has been wished for multiple times in the past. Last time it was brought up, I did give this idea some thought. While this might sound like a good idea on the surface, there are multiple problems that arise when you stop and really think about how the submarine work, it's capabilities in term of speed, firepower and endurance, especially submerged capabilities vs it's target.
First, let's look at the fleet submarine(USN sub) capabilities. We'll take as our 'average' mid/late war 'typical' fleet boat, a Balao class USN fleet submarine. It had a 21 knots surfaced flank speed, with optimal range of 11 000 miles@10knots. It managed a whooping 8.75 knots submerged at flank bell. Let's note here that under the current setup, our carrier group sail at a permanent flank speed of 35 knots, meaning that if one of these spotted a cv group from a trailing position, there is no way for it to get into position. Even if you are ahead of the group, that is no guarantee that you'll catch it. Of course there is always the possibility of spawning one close to a port when a CV get close but then there is still the problem of getting in attack position as in that situation, you'd be submerged and limited to 9 knots vs the 35+ of the CG. Also note that the submerged flank bell endurance is quite limited. And once your batteries start to deplete, it cripple your submerged speed by that much. A type XXI U-boat enjoy a much improved submerged speed at 18kts. Yet still not enough to be practical against one of our CG.
We also have to consider the problems brought up by the ASUW aspect. The introduction of the submarine will create a need for specialized weapons to handle the threat. Some we already have in bombs that could be used against surfaced or very shallow subs, some we don't as the depth charge and some ASUW capable ship like the corvette/destroyer, the PBY (and other sea recon planes). Then we have all the aspect of acoustic detection to consider, as much for the sub as for the destroyer with ASDIC, passive sonar suit, active sonar suit for subs, radar(that were used extensively during mid-late war by the US fleet in the pacific). Capabilities and vehicles and systems that would have to be introduced at the same time as the subs.
One last thing to consider is the time scale at which AH is played. It's basically real time so for a fleet boat doing flank bell @ 20-21kts surfaced(Type XXI U-boat did not go faster submerged or sufaced), we're looking at 1:15h to cross a 25 miles sector. The point is all sub-sim games I played(sub command/dangerous waters/silent hunter 2-3-4) have a time compression capability, allowing the player to skip the tedious part and jump right into the action.
I'm not saying it can not/should not be done. I just have a hard time figuring how this could be made realistic enough, up to AH standard, and yet fun. It would be hard to make it so without profound changes to the way surface warfare is done. We'd need many players manned boat sailing all over the place to make it worthwhile to up a sub. Just chasing CV group would hardly justify the introduction of subs by itself as, as of now, our CG woulkd easily outrun most, if not all, subs used during WW2 and they are just too far in between. If some sort of resupply convoy system could be implemented along with the subs to provide some targets, it would be another thing.
My 2 cents on the matter.
:salute
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HiTech already said that he wants to add it.
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Well, I'm eager to see how it will be done and how they will overcome the limitations of the subs.
I'll just wait and see then.
:salute
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I think they would be great used from PT spawn point at all shore.bases. Sub spawned at periscope depth and is used to defend the shore line base simulating a patrolling sub.
This would help deter cv groups from coming in to close to shore solving the cv ack capping the base problem as.well.
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I think they would be great used from PT spawn point at all shore.bases. Sub spawned at periscope depth and is used to defend the shore line base simulating a patrolling sub.
This would help deter cv groups from coming in to close to shore solving the cv ack capping the base problem as.well.
+1... and maybe add "Sub-Nets" out to sea to keep subs from going out too far and keep enemy "Attack Submarines"(need not be added) from getting in close to shore.
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this would be nice in game for port defence.
Type XXVII B 5 (Seehund) midget submarine
Class overview
Builders: Germaniawerft, Kiel
Operators: Kriegsmarine
French Navy
Built: 1944–1945
In commission: 1944–1945
Planned: 1,000
Completed: 285
Active: 138
Lost: 35
General characteristics
Displacement: 17 long tons (17 t) submerged
Length: 39 ft (12 m)
Beam: 5 ft (1.5 m)
Propulsion: 1 x 60 hp Büssing Diesel engine
25 hp AEG electric motor
Speed: 7 kn (13 km/h; 8.1 mph) surfaced
3 kn (5.6 km/h; 3.5 mph) submerged
Range: 270 nmi (500 km; 310 mi) at 7 kn (13 km/h; 8.1 mph) surfaced
63 nmi (117 km; 72 mi) at 4 kn (7.4 km/h; 4.6 mph) submerged
Complement: 2
Armament: 2 G7e torpedoes
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I have to say that Fugitive got the right idea of how it could pssibly work in AH. I was maybe a little too biased by the fact I took submarine for ocean going sub and did not think of it from a base defense POV. I still believe that confining them to that role only would not render them justice as to the overall capabilities of the weapon system. A submarine is a little like a sniper. Hide, strike and flee.
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Well, I'm eager to see how it will be done and how they will overcome the limitations of the subs.
I'll just wait and see then.
:salute
I'm curious as well, I guess that's why we still don't have them.
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I cant see it working. Ive had a little luck with PT boats (2 or 3 ships so far this tour) but it takes forever to get in range even at ?40mph when they are heading towards you, and assuming no one has seen you. you'd have to spawn right infront of the fleet to have a chance of hitting anything with a sub. and remember subs were mostly used to sink steamers making 10kts at night ...
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Exactly. They were mainly an anti-shipping weapons, though they do have a few warship kills to their credit, but their main usefulness was depriving troops of much needed supply by cutting seaborn supply lines. The sheer amount of time to setup an attack is prohibitive at best. Of course we could see midget sub for port defense, but still their slow submerged speed (about 3kts as per someone post up this thread) make their usefulness against anything but a stopped ship very questionnable. On a passing by CV you'll get but one chance if you're really lucky and spawn at the right place at the right time. I'm still not convinced a submarine is a vehicule that is adaptable to the MMO sandbox game that is AH. At least not how it is today. Last time I played SH4, I went after a Jap merchant column, steaming at a easy 8kts. Spotted at 10 000yds(about 5miles) opening distance. In game time it took 1.5-2 hours to get ahead of the targets in a parallel chase, 30-45 more minutes of submerged chase and 5 minutes to finish of 2 ships out of the 5. That's about 3 hours game time. Took about 20-30min real time with time compression allowing for some paused and real time plotting to calculate optimal position and chase route. I confess I got quite a rush from this game and nothing like a good depth charging to get you on your toes, but the point is, in AH we do not have time compression that chase would have held me at the computer for an entire afternoon. And even then my targets in AH would be racing at 35 kts. No chance to close the distance in my fleet boat unless I happen to be almost in perfect position before I spot the CG.
:salute
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Doesn't every aircraft/vehicle have pros and cons though? It will have a place in aces high, even if it is just a port defence role.
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Doesn't every aircraft/vehicle have pros and cons though? It will have a place in aces high, even if it is just a port defence role.
I would vote on adding the Submarine, Pro's of it would be as long as the periscope is down then the submarine wouldn't be spotted, however with the periscope up it would be visible by the wake left.
A Close enough bomb (250lb direct hit, 500lb close hit) would be enough to sink a submarine, basically using the same formula as the ground vehicle, a close enough hit can either damage the torpedo tubes or the engine.
I certainly agree on adding submarines to Port defense, as it is a single vehicle hanger is just not enough defense at a port.
One suicidal bomb**** and there is no way to defend the port, perhaps adding a second VH would require more precision.
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Consider this. You're driving a sub. It goes something less than 10 knots underwater and maybe twice that above. Not exactly setting the world on fire. You travel for hours getting into position to sink a ship. You're in the periscope ready to go torpedoes lohse and a formation of bombers comes over and sinks "your" target right in front of you. Yeah that sounds like great fun.
Subs are almost like the night fighter argument. Remember subs generally only travelled on the surface at night when they were in range of NME aircraft because if they were sighted during the day they were as good as sunk.
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This has been wished for multiple times in the past. Last time it was brought up, I did give this idea some thought. While this might sound like a good idea on the surface, .....
:salute
Cooffee on desk...... :rofl
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The subs from WW2 were surface vessels that had the ability to submerge. I think we're forgetting about the 'battery drain multiplier' that would come with them.
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Cooffee on desk...... :rofl
It's an idea easily sunk.... :D
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Almost 24 hours and no-one posted this yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhxYFO_7pIU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhxYFO_7pIU)
"...but I've got thousands!"
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:rofl
Hey! We just spotted our first CV. ALL AHEAD FLANK. Let's hope he tries to HO us or we'll never catch it!
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Almost 24 hours and no-one posted this yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhxYFO_7pIU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhxYFO_7pIU)
"...but I've got thousands!"
That video was just awesome, thanks for sharing
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:rofl
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Almost 24 hours and no-one posted this yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhxYFO_7pIU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhxYFO_7pIU)
"...but I've got thousands!"
OMG! :lol :rofl
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Almost 24 hours and no-one posted this yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhxYFO_7pIU
"...but I've got thousands!"
Excellent LOL
:aok
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Actually subs could open up the possibility of anti-shipping for new cargo lanes. Instead of a just the tugboats near ports, actually have true shipping lanes. Wuold probable need 2 uncaptuarable bases added though. Would be kewl to see a convoy added. Cause the strat system really needs to be looked at. Depots, Ports, Trains. And CONVOYS. The whole nine yards. my 2¢
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Almost 24 hours and no-one posted this yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhxYFO_7pIU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhxYFO_7pIU)
"...but I've got thousands!"
:salute :rofl :aok