Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: EVZ on December 31, 2011, 11:34:11 AM
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Only 22 of these produced by wars end I think ... But? I see requests for P51H, Meteor, and we already have the P-47M ... This plane would add a new dimension to late war and provide some serious competition for the 51s, 262s, and LA7s ... PLUS - it's really cool !!!
:aok
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We have requests for any and all, that's not the measure.
And unlike the Do 335, the P-47M was in regular service and did see combat.
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I also doubt the P-47M would have ever been added had it not used the exact same geometry as the P-47D-40. It was, artworkwise, a free addition.
The Do335 most certainly would not be such.
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Still, I'd take out a Do-335 just to have something besides a 163 to intercept those 38K HQ raids.
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Still, I'd take out a Do-335 just to have something besides a 163 to intercept those 38K HQ raids.
^
Ehmmm.. can't follow you.
Why do you think the 335 would be so much better interceptor as the ones we already have in game, so it that would be the only plane next to a 163 to intercept HQ raids? (Which implies currently there is not even another capable interceptor but the 163, which I can't follow either)
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^
Ehmmm.. can't follow you.
Why do you think the 335 would be so much better interceptor as the ones we already have in game, so it that would be the only plane next to a 163 to intercept HQ raids? (Which implies currently there is not even another capable interceptor but the 163, which I can't follow either)
We hardly have any interceptors designed to tackle the usually 25-40k buffs in Aces high. P47? 109? 190? what else? not much.
G.55 would be an interesting edition, not sure if it did well over 22k - I wish we had more interceptors for 20-30k, anything above that the buff driver can spend his 4-5 hours alone.
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We hardly have any interceptors designed to tackle the usually 25-40k buffs in Aces high. P47? 109? 190? what else? not much.
First of all, the 335 is NOT a high altitude bomber interceptor. In fact, it's not an interceptor at all. Planes like the 152H, the P-47M, P-47N and a few more have a superior performance at very high altitudes. The 109K is way outperforming the 335 in climbing to altitude (that's one of the main features of an 'interceptor')
And many planes in Ah do quite well in the buff hunting role at 20-25k, and quite a number still fine for 25-30k. The 335A had it's best performance at 20k by the way, just like many fighters of WW2.
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This shot was posted by caldera of an intercept he did on a formation of Mosquito Mk XVI's at 40,000ft:
(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/AH2%20screenshots/40kjackpot.png)
His account of the intercept:
He hit our strats and was RTB when I first made an icon on him. It was around 25k and he was 5.5k above me (at 40k on the dot). Must have been a long trip for him, as this was on a large map. Interception was easy, since he flew more or less straight. At 40k, he wasn't going all that fast; either from reduced power at such a high altitude, or reduced throttle to milk it home. I just dropped the RPMs a bit and saved WEP for the very end. He did start maneuvering seconds after the first bullets hit, but then it was too late.
Fighters we have that are decent or good interceptors for the 20,000 to 30,000 range:
Bf109K-4
F4U-1
F4U-1A
F4U-1C
F4U-1D
F4U-4
Me163
Me262
P-38J
P-38L
P-47D-11
P-47D-25
P-47D-40
P-47M
P-47N
P-51B
P-51D
Spitfire Mk IX
Spitfire Mk XIV
Ta152H-1
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First of all, the 335 is NOT a high altitude bomber interceptor. In fact, it's not an interceptor at all. Planes like the 152H, the P-47M, P-47N and a few more have a superior performance at very high altitudes. The 109K is way outperforming the 335 in climbing to altitude (that's one of the main features of an 'interceptor')
And many planes in Ah do quite well in the buff hunting role at 20-25k, and quite a number still fine for 25-30k. The 335A had it's best performance at 20k by the way, just like many fighters of WW2.
You completely misread what I said, I won't bother to comment anymore on the subject, I happen to know the performance of the 335A, my comment was directed elsewhere which was completely missed.
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We have requests for any and all, that's not the measure. And unlike the Do 335, the P-47M was in regular service and did see combat.
There are at least a couple of Allied combat sightings of the Do 335 on record, a flight of Tempests reported they were unable to keep up and failed to obtain firing range on it ... Much of the German paperwork was lost, destroyed, captured by the Russians, or Classified by US - Strategic Services. There isn't any ? available test data (that I know of?) on rate of climb ... The ref. to 25,000 ft in 15 min was a casual comment. 2 complete aircraft WERE captured and returned to the US ... In the transit to the french coast, it was reported - "The Do 335 was easily able to out distance the escorting Mustangs and arrived at Cherbourg 45 minutes before the P-51s." Top Speed was recorded as 474 MPH in level flight at 20,000 ... This plane would have created HAVOC for existing bombers and escorts. 120 were ordered initially and over 2,000 were scheduled for production (various models).
:cool:
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There are at least a couple of Allied combat sightings of the Do 335 on record, a flight of Tempests reported they were unable to keep up and failed to obtain firing range on it
That does not mean it was in regular service. There was no place Germany had where they could test fly new aircraft without risking an encounter with Allied fighters.
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That does not mean it was in regular service. There was no place Germany had where they could test fly new aircraft without risking an encounter with Allied fighters.
Agreed, if I remember correctly - there were a few prototypes that did regular flight testing very late in the war - I think it may of been pierre clostermann who ran into a Do-335 while in a tempest, in which the 335 opened the throttle and sped away, however this claim has be de-bunked a few times, as some documents say the test pilot never ran into "Tempests". However I've always been open to speculate on this, how can you mis-identify a Do-335 with any other German aircraft, and how many other aircraft can open throttle and speed away from a Tempest?
I would love to see the Do-335 added in game, one of those "what if" situations
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That does not mean it was in regular service. There was no place Germany had where they could test fly new aircraft without risking an encounter with Allied fighters.
Did someone claim the 335 was in regular service or is that just something else you are making up so you can argue about it?
AFAIK ... Testing continued at Bavarian Bases until the last few weeks of the war ... Bavaria was largely ignored by allied air operations which were focused on the N Sea and Berlin.
:huh
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Did someone claim the 335 was in regular service or is that just something else you are making up so you can argue about it?
You directly implied such by posting an apparent rebuttal of Luche's comment that you quoted.
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Did someone claim the 335 was in regular service or is that just something else you are making up so you can argue about it?
AFAIK ... Testing continued at Bavarian Bases until the last few weeks of the war ... Bavaria was largely ignored by allied air operations which were focused on the N Sea and Berlin.
:huh
The 335 was never in regular service, and never left the prototype stage, given the amount created it would be correct to state it was still in prototype.
However with the numbers produced it could be argued, usually there are 2-5 in prototype before production - however there are number of reasons otherwise that could simply state it was still being tested when the war ended.
I don't recall anyone who stated the 335 was in production except a few years back when Wikipedia was being updated once a week by 12 yr olds.
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Fighters we have that are decent or good interceptors for the 20,000 to 30,000 range:
Bf109K-4
F4U-1
F4U-1A
F4U-1C
F4U-1D
F4U-4
Me163
Me262
P-38J
P-38L
P-47D-11
P-47D-25
P-47D-40
P-47M
P-47N
P-51B
P-51D
Spitfire Mk IX
Spitfire Mk XIV
Ta152H-1
I would drop the F4U-1 and the Me-262 from the list. Acceleration will have dropped to just about nothing at 30k, and thats also an important factor for an interceptor. It needs to be able to quickly reach and maintain combat speeds after climbout.
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I would drop the F4U-1 and the Me-262 from the list. Acceleration will have dropped to just about nothing at 30k, and thats also an important factor for an interceptor. It needs to be able to quickly reach and maintain combat speeds after climbout.
30,000ft is only one extreme in the 20,000ft to 30,000ft range, and the Me262 is quite capable of intercepting bombers across most of that altitude range. Not as sure about the F4U-1. Possibly the Fw190D-9 should be on the list too.
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i would love to see this plane get added to the game, wouldn't mind flying a pusher prop plane :rock
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30,000ft is only one extreme in the 20,000ft to 30,000ft range, and the Me262 is quite capable of intercepting bombers across most of that altitude range. Not as sure about the F4U-1. Possibly the Fw190D-9 should be on the list too.
Dora is a capable interceptor, even for Aces High - except for dealing with the buffs not the escort. The K4 deals with escorts far better then buffs, assuming they don't dive out and run.
If I had to make a mission to bust a Buff raid, 109K4s and Spit14s would tackle fighters while Ta-152/Dora9s take on buffs.
With Aces High sometimes you don't get the luxury of scrambling 3 sectors away, which means 80% of aircraft are written off.
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I feel the 190's just don't work real well for high alt intercepts (solo, that is). Low-mid alt, they're great. But at high alt they just don't have the speed that some other fighters do, which is nessecary if bombers are escorted; really, they top out at 21k or so. And the D9, with its fairly high wingloading, just feels a bit too heavy.
G-14 might be worth of that list (no worse than the P-51D).
But then the G-14, like some others, aren't really top of the class interceptors. IMO, whittle it down to a few of the top interceptors in the game.
IMO:
109K
Spitfire Mk XIV
Ta-152
P-47 M/N
Me-163
F4U-4
Spit 9 (maybe, I've never flown it at alt, and only have charts to go off of)
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given the amount created it would be correct to state it was still in prototype.
There seems to be a documented consensus that the last batch of 11 planes delivered were PRODUCTION contract aircraft ... They may have been on acceptance flights when the combat incidents occured as the proposed (1st) squadron was never formed or assigned. The production contract WAS a captured document and was for the finalised design, NOT prototypes ... production scheduling for 2,000 planes was also recovered, so this wasn't a "MAYBE" aircraft ...
:cool:
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There seems to be a documented consensus that the last batch of 11 planes delivered were PRODUCTION contract aircraft ... They may have been on acceptance flights when the combat incidents occured as the proposed (1st) squadron was never formed or assigned. The production contract WAS a captured document and was for the finalised design, NOT prototypes ... production scheduling for 2,000 planes was also recovered, so this wasn't a "MAYBE" aircraft ...
:cool:
oh ya, they were defenitaly gonna put it into mass production eventually, they just didn't have enough time to do so is all
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There seems to be a documented consensus that the last batch of 11 planes delivered were PRODUCTION contract aircraft ... They may have been on acceptance flights when the combat incidents occured as the proposed (1st) squadron was never formed or assigned. The production contract WAS a captured document and was for the finalised design, NOT prototypes ... production scheduling for 2,000 planes was also recovered, so this wasn't a "MAYBE" aircraft ...
:cool:
And from Wikipedia you gather, what size was the biggest flight flown by Do-335s? Gruppe? doubtful. Staffel? probably not. At best would be a Schwarm and that's if it can be proven which is highly unlikely due to end of the conflict.
In the dire situation it might of been pressed into action for last minute action, but it was never in operational strength, let alone in Staffel Strength.
If it was in Rotte strength (armed and fueled) I am quite sure someone would of read about it, I know a few spotted prototypes flying around at the end of the war, and I would probably not even attempt to research beyond that due to the lateness of the war, let alone shortage of war materials.
I'd give half a nut to have the 335 in game, although I don't think master card would come collect.
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The Do335 was intended for production and service, but it never fired a shot in anger nor reached a service squadron.
The A7M2 and J7W1 also fall into those categories.
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The Do335 was intended for production and service, but it never fired a shot in anger nor reached a service squadron.
The A7M2 and J7W1 also fall into those categories.
The P-80 was intended for production and never fired a shot in anger, assuming Operation Downfall went through the same argument is said for F8F and F7F.
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The P-80 was intended for production and never fired a shot in anger, assuming Operation Downfall went through the same argument is said for F8F and F7F.
P-80 yes (no combat for it in Korea?), but I'd say the F7F and F8F fall into a different category as they were in squadron service, they just didn't make it into combat.
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oh ya, they were defenitaly gonna put it into mass production eventually, they just didn't have enough time to do so is all
Exactly ... Not an unusual circumstance.
Look at the P-47M - it WAS in the field testing phase as the war ended ... "By the time the bugs were worked out, the war in Europe was nearly over. However, P-47Ms still destroyed 15 enemy aircraft in aerial combat - Twelve were lost in operational crashes (engine problems) with the 56th Group resulting in 11 deaths, two after VE Day, and two (44-21134 on 13 April 1945 and 44-21230 on 16 April 1945) were shot down in combat, both by ground fire."
This is not exactly an extensive combat record ... is it ??? Yet we DO have the plane in the game. Sure HT had the basic modeling already and the graphics were very close ... no complaint ... but I think there IS precedent for considering the DO-335.
:cool:
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Look at the P-47M - it WAS in the field testing phase as the war ended ... "By the time the bugs were worked out, the war in Europe was nearly over. However, P-47Ms still destroyed 15 enemy aircraft in aerial combat - Twelve were lost in operational crashes (engine problems) with the 56th Group resulting in 11 deaths, two after VE Day, and two (44-21134 on 13 April 1945 and 44-21230 on 16 April 1945) were shot down in combat, both by ground fire."
This is not exactly an extensive combat record ... is it ??? Yet we DO have the plane in the game. Sure HT had the basic modeling already and the graphics were very close ... no complaint ... but I think there IS precedent for considering the DO-335.
:cool:
The P-47M was not in field testing. It was in service. There is no comparison between the P-47M and Do335, regardless of how hard you try to manufacture one. There is simply no aircraft in AH, not the Ta152, not the Me163 and not the P-47M that was still in prototype and had not gone to squadron service.
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The Do335 was intended for production and service, but it never fired a shot in anger nor reached a service squadron.
The A7M2 and J7W1 also fall into those categories.
The P-80 was intended for production and never fired a shot in anger, assuming Operation Downfall went through the same argument is said for F8F and F7F.
Just add them all! :D
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The P-47M was not in field testing. It was in service. There is no comparison between the P-47M and Do335, regardless of how hard you try to manufacture one. There is simply no aircraft in AH, not the Ta152, not the Me163 and not the P-47M that was still in prototype and had not gone to squadron service.
It seems the war dept disagrees with you ... The field testing program vitally influenced the development and deployment of the P-47N ... and resulted in the cancellation of the contract for the M. Only 130 of them were built and they spent most of their WWII service grounded with engine problems.
I have not compared the P-47 to the Do 335, only offered it as a precedent for considering the 335 for AH. They have few similarities, the P-47M WAS fast, it was HOPED it would be a worthy opponent for the 262 ... But it's design was dated while the 335 incorporated NEW CONCEPTS and Mfg Techniques.
:cool:
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It seems the war dept disagrees with you ... The field testing program vitally influenced the development and deployment of the P-47N ... and resulted in the cancellation of the contract for the M. Only 130 of them were built and they spent most of their WWII service grounded with engine problems.
I have not compared the P-47 to the Do 335, only offered it as a precedent for considering the 335 for AH. They have few similarities, the P-47M WAS fast, it was HOPED it would be a worthy opponent for the 262 ... But it's design was dated while the 335 incorporated NEW CONCEPTS and Mfg Techniques.
:cool:
You do realize every aircraft suffers engine maintenance? engine problems? the more advance the engine the longer the downfall a particular aircraft has.
Corsair.....47...... had acceptable ratios of aircraft in repair vs a 38 which was far worse...sometimes it took 5-7 days to get a single plane airworthy.
Thus is a reason for the Heinkel He 162 vs a Me-262 - single engine that you can throw away vs a 262 which had literally 20 or so hours on the engine before they were scrapped.
The M was built as a speedy little fighter to Catch V-1s and Me-262s the reason it was canceled, is the war was pretty much over.
It had no use in the Pacific where the N and P-51 were the only capable fighters at the time (given the range which was a huge factor).
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The P-47M was in squadron service. I've even personally met a pilot who flew it in combat and survived crash landing one behind German lines.
The Do335 was not in squadron service and was not flown in combat.
There is no precedence despite your attempt to make one.
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I get the rule about any potential bird having flown combat but could we deviate from it? We pay $15/mo to pretend we owned the skies of circa 1940, could we not simply vote to add it? If enough say yes it would obviously be perked well above the 262, maybe three or four times as many perks but would this not be a natural stepping stone to a Korean War arena? We want realism yet every second we see a P-51D kill a Spit we're watching reality hit the fan. Over time let the Dornier 335 mess it up with F7Fs, F8Fs, P-51Hs, Mig-15s and F-86s in a new arena. This is natural growth for this product.
Just say'n...
Boo
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another EVZ shine thread
i say NO to the Do-335 even tho im a luftwannabe. It has no place in this game.
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I get the rule about any potential bird having flown combat but could we deviate from it? We pay $15/mo to pretend we owned the skies of circa 1940, could we not simply vote to add it? If enough say yes it would obviously be perked well above the 262, maybe three or four times as many perks but would this not be a natural stepping stone to a Korean War arena? We want realism yet every second we see a P-51D kill a Spit we're watching reality hit the fan. Over time let the Dornier 335 mess it up with F7Fs, F8Fs, P-51Hs, Mig-15s and F-86s in a new arena. This is natural growth for this product.
Just say'n...
Boo
No. I don't want to see any Do335, F7F, F8F, P-51H, MiG-15, F-86, F-4, MiG-21, F-14, F-15, F-16, MiG-29, Su-27, Su-37, F-22 or F-35. I do not want to see the constant push of "Whatever HTC adds needs to make a big impact and be widely used." validated.
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I get the rule about any potential bird having flown combat but could we deviate from it? We pay $15/mo to pretend we owned the skies of circa 1940, could we not simply vote to add it? - This is natural growth for this product.
Good Points ... The 335 WAS encountered in combat situations ... Not frequently, Not in great numbers, Not as a significant factor ... BUT COMBAT is COMBAT isn't it? There does seem to be interest in the plane, desire to fly it, and it would obviously provide a suitable opponent for the P-51s and possibly add some balance to use of the 51D. In order to do THAT I would prefer to see it unperked or offered at a very low perk cost, like the T-34/85.
:cool:
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Good Points ... The 335 WAS encountered in combat situations ... Not frequently, Not in great numbers, Not as a significant factor ... BUT COMBAT is COMBAT isn't it? There does seem to be interest in the plane, desire to fly it, and it would obviously provide a suitable opponent for the P-51s and possibly add some balance to use of the 51D. In order to do THAT I would prefer to see it unperked or offered at a very low perk cost, like the T-34/85.
:cool:
Being seen at range and flying away is not combat.
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the more advance the engine the longer the downfall a particular aircraft has. - The M was built as a speedy little fighter to Catch V-1s and Me-262s the reason it was canceled, is the war was pretty much over. It had no use in the Pacific where the N and P-51 were the only capable fighters at the time (given the range which was a huge factor).
I'd agree with most of that ... Not sure about calling a 47 "little". The M's Engine Problems were a large part of the reason for the FIELD TESTING program as that was the ONLY way to REALLY detect them ... Many of the FIXS were applied to the 47N ... Continuing production of the M would have required retooling and down time at the factorys which was better spent converting them for production of the N. In reality the M was basically a TEST aircraft, which -I think- is a precedent for considering the Do 335 as a valid candidate.
It -IS- interesting to note that the 47N production WAS continued without pause until well after the war ended. The RUSSIANS had LONG RANGE bombers under development as well as their own atomics program and the 47Ns capabilities as a B29 escort also made it an ideal interceptor AND a functional deterant.
:)
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Being seen at range and flying away is not combat.
Again the war dept disagrees with you ... ALL flights in a designated combat zone (including tests and transport) ARE combat and (most importantly) qualify the pilot for a higher pay grade.
:confused:
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Again the war dept disagrees with you ... ALL flights in a designated combat zone (including tests and transport) ARE combat and (most importantly) qualify the pilot for a higher pay grade.
:confused:
The War Dept. doesn't necessarily get to define what combat is. I am on pretty solid ground in saying that a prototype aircraft not in squadron service that flees from a fighter is not really what HTC means by "combat".
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Even the Do-335A0 tested by the US after the war (pre-production, and arguably one of the 'fighter-bomber' variants) was capable of 475 Mph and had a ceiling of 37K, along with an initial climb rate of 1400m/min (4,200ft/min) - there are a lot worse things you could take up for bomber interception. The problem we have in getting something like this is that you have a few production models (the A1s) and a whole lot of 'planned' production models (like the A9 which was to have longer wings and DB603L engines along with a pressurized cockpit for high alt work).
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The War Dept. doesn't necessarily get to define what combat is. I am on pretty solid ground in saying that a prototype aircraft not in squadron service that flees from a fighter is not really what HTC means by "combat".
Ok ... whatever your crystal ball tells you ... I suspect HT consider all the angles and has a relatively open mind ... I havn't heard him say NO yet? I suspect the german 335 pilot on record as RUNNING LIKE A BUNNY with a flight of Tempests on his tail considered it combat. I'd even bet the Tempest pilots hoping to catch and kill him thought it was COMBAT ...
:rofl
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EVZ, you're not gonna win this argument.
If you suddenly stumble into the crossfire of a gang shootout, are YOU in combat? No, you're just in a combat ZONE. You yourself aren't actually in combat.
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Ok ... whatever your crystal ball tells you ... I suspect HT consider all the angles and has a relatively open mind ... I havn't heard him say NO yet? I suspect the german 335 pilot on record as RUNNING LIKE A BUNNY with a flight of Tempests on his tail considered it combat. I'd even bet the Tempest pilots hoping to catch and kill him thought it was COMBAT ...
:rofl
he never gave a criteria, but this has been the general lines for adding planes to the game - Squadron strength that has seen combat.
The Do-335 you are referring to as I recall was unarmed, one flight doesn't account for the missing squad strength. And a handful of prototypes won't change HTC's mind.
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I had always thought the 56th FG was an operational unit myself.
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I had always thought the 56th FG was an operational unit myself.
That's 'cause it was.
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he never gave a criteria, but this has been the general lines for adding planes to the game - Squadron strength that has seen combat.
Squadron STRENGTH? Like the TA 152 H-1, which is also in the game? A friend called to my attention that only around 40 were ever produced ... That includes I think the 20 H-O test aircraft that were officially "tested" for around 30HRS TOTAL. The TA 152 scored 4 maybe 5 confirmable kills starting in march of 45. There were never more than 15 operational aircraft available at once ... Only 2 operational aircraft were left when the war ended.
Another fascinating airplane with a marginal history ... Like the DO 335 ...
;)
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That's 'cause it was.
Well, it was when it wasn't GROUNDED (frequently and extensively) by the 47Ms engine problems. At one point they were resupplied with old P51Bs (?) JUST so they could remain mission capable. They SAY the victors get to write the history, but I don't think they'll let you revise the facts concerning the P-47M. AHs 47M flys like butter! It's my FAVORITE 47! I don't CARE about it's LACK of notable combat operations. I like the Plane and I consider it an asset in the game. I think the DO 335 would be too!
:aok
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It doesnt matter how many times you tell something again and again: the truth remains the same.
This aircraft never been in operational service, nor have been sent out to the squadrons.
Would be better to ask for something what
-fills some kind of hole in the planeset, -the Do-335 doesnt fills any hole, being something simmilar to the 152.
-seen service, was produced in numbers and -the Do-335 wasnt produced in big numbers, never seen service
-had a real role in the war. -it had really no role in the war, being more like just a handful of prototypes.
There are many choices what fits the criteria 1000 times better than the Do-335, being core aircrafts of the given country:
Ki-43 and -44, Jak-3 and -7, Tu-2, Pe-2, La-5 (early model), Ju-188, Do-17 and -217, FW-187, He-111, Ju-87G, Beaufighter, even the Whirlwind or the SpitXII.
Possibly missed out a couple. Anyway, your fight is pointless and wont lead anywhere. Salute
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Anyway, your fight is pointless and wont lead anywhere.
The only thing I'm fighting for is to keep this thread ON TOPIC. Sure seems to bother you and a couple of other put down artists ... don't it ???
:neener:
I think the number of positive responses is noted ... AND notable ... AH NEEDS some planes that are interesting and different enough to catch the imagination. MORE model variations that provide essentially the same preformace as existing AH aircraft aren't going to cut it. The ME-410 is such a plane, especially if it gets the big gun. The Catalina PBY may be slow and lightly armed, but it catches the imagination. The DO 335 does too ... Just what the Dr. Ordered and no amount of groaning and whining is going to change that.
:rock
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Uhh someone mentioned this (debrody) I dont have ANY data to prove otherwise but I'm going to guess that the Ta152 was probably not similar at all to the 335. even in our AH planeset which I'm certain is how you meant it.
Just tossing that out there...just sayin'
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Well, it was when it wasn't GROUNDED (frequently and extensively) by the 47Ms engine problems. At one point they were resupplied with old P51Bs (?) JUST so they could remain mission capable. They SAY the victors get to write the history, but I don't think they'll let you revise the facts concerning the P-47M. AHs 47M flys like butter! It's my FAVORITE 47! I don't CARE about it's LACK of notable combat operations. I like the Plane and I consider it an asset in the game. I think the DO 335 would be too!
:aok
The pilot that was at the Aces High convention in 2001 crash landed his P-47M behind German lines in 1945. He didn't do this by sneaking it into the air when he wasn't supposed to. He was on an operational sortie to attack the Germans.
You may note some differences there between the P-47M and the Do335.
In addition, as I stated earlier, if the 3D model of the P-47M was not exactly the same as the 3D model of the P-47D-40 we would not have the P-47M in AH. It was a cheap addition. Name the fighter in AH that the exotically shaped Do335 would use any part of? Yeah, none.
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Uhh someone mentioned this (debrody) I dont have ANY data to prove otherwise but I'm going to guess that the Ta152 was probably not similar at all to the 335. even in our AH planeset which I'm certain is how you meant it.
The DO 335 isn't at all PHYSICALLY similar to the TA 152, and it doesn't FLY like a 190, or any other plane in the game ... What was probably meant was that they had a SIMILAR MISSION ... Had the war continued, the germans anticipated High Alt B29 raids and possibly similar raids from NEW Russian Bombers in the east. They knew the raids would be accompanied by evolved P51s and P47s (exactly what the allies had planned). BOTH of these aircraft were developed to be superior High Alt Interceptors that could outfly the escorts and bring down the 29s. Does that sound like a plane YOU would like to fly?
:)
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The pilot that was at the Aces High convention in 2001 crash landed his P-47M behind German lines in 1945. He didn't do this by sneaking it into the air when he wasn't supposed to. He was on an operational sortie to attack the Germans.
Sure ... He PROBABLY crashed (like LOTS of others) due to the already mentioned engine failures (which all to often resulted in fatalities). THAT is WHY the aircraft were GROUNDED, on several occassions, as NEW problems were being discovered every time an old one was FIXED.
In addition, as I stated earlier, if the 3D model of the P-47M was not exactly the same as the 3D model of the P-47D-40 we would not have the P-47M in AH. It was a cheap addition. Name the fighter in AH that the exotically shaped Do335 would use any part of? Yeah, none.
Exactly !!! The Do 335 is something NEW and DIFFERRENT that fills a hole as a worthy opponent for the P-51. I think the P47C should be in the game too as it was the model the AAF took to England and was produced and used extensively. But I don't think it's going to inspire anyone or impress any NEW players.
:O
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It what universe do you think the 475mph, 4200ft/min climb, Do335 is a worth opponent of the 437mph, 3400ft/min climb, P-51D? That isn't a fight, its a slaughter.
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It what universe do you think the 475mph, 4200ft/min climb, Do335 is a worth opponent of the 437mph, 3400ft/min climb, P-51D? That isn't a fight, its a slaughter.
The P-51H hits 487mph at altitude, which if I remember correctly was 24,000ft. In any case, I accept the Do-335 isn't coming for Christmas but a fun thought.
Boo
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It what universe do you think the 475mph, 4200ft/min climb, Do335 is a worth opponent of the 437mph, 3400ft/min climb, P-51D? That isn't a fight, its a slaughter.
Oh, I don't know ... the 262 is also superior, but definately NOT a notable 51D Killer. But, for sure, the Pony express days of invulnerable 51s diving away from the fight unopposed would be over. Think of it as a HORDE BUSTER! Hopefully? it would also end the days of the uncatchable bomber formation that can only be attacked from behind and can only be killed with an artillary piece.
:pray
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Squadron STRENGTH? Like the TA 152 H-1, which is also in the game? A friend called to my attention that only around 40 were ever produced ... That includes I think the 20 H-O test aircraft that were officially "tested" for around 30HRS TOTAL. The TA 152 scored 4 maybe 5 confirmable kills starting in march of 45. There were never more than 15 operational aircraft available at once ... Only 2 operational aircraft were left when the war ended.
Another fascinating airplane with a marginal history ... Like the DO 335 ...
;)
Ta-152 was in Staffel strength and served in JG-301 towards the end of the war which explains why it didn't enter "squadron service"...hence END of the war. Do-335 never served staffel strength, while JG-301 did.
Ta-152 has far more history then Do-335 or P51-H had during the war, those 20 test aircraft were combat armed and flying combat patrols.
Far different then being being cozy lines testing in England when the war was a few thousand miles----------> way.
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Squadron STRENGTH? Like the TA 152 H-1, which is also in the game? A friend called to my attention that only around 40 were ever produced ... That includes I think the 20 H-O test aircraft that were officially "tested" for around 30HRS TOTAL. The TA 152 scored 4 maybe 5 confirmable kills starting in march of 45. There were never more than 15 operational aircraft available at once ... Only 2 operational aircraft were left when the war ended.
Another fascinating airplane with a marginal history ... Like the DO 335 ...
;)
The H-0 and H-1 are almost the same plane. Only small changes were made. There were 57 production H-0/H-1 with an additional 2 152-Cs. The never more than 15 is disputed with it ranging from 15 to 25. Jg-301 was not the only squad with 152s JG-11 supposedly had at least 4. The kills is 7-9. There was more than two airworthy at the end at least 5 were airworthy. This is also disputed because some were obviously purposely destroyed. 3 were taken by the British and 2 by the US. The 3 British 152s were scrapped along with one of the US versions. The single remaining 152 was housed in a airforce warehouse for many years before being donated to the Smithsonian who has it mothballed for now.
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EVZ, you're just not getting the point here.
1) didn't see combat. It was shot at, yes, but the two aren't the same thing.
2) didn't see use at squadron strength
3) Do. 335 was still at the expiramental stage really
Petition Hitech, he might make an exception to his own rules, but for now pretty much everyone agrees that it doesn't meet requirments.
Also, if you want new additions that give something different, try lobbying for some of the aircraft that saw combat.
IAR. 80C
G.55
Beaufighter
Ki-44
etc.
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Maybe its just me but does EVZ just dodging the point that the Do-335 does not make the criteria? :rolleyes: No matter what other planes are in the line-up it DOES NOT meet the requirements.
I agree it would be a fun plane to fly but it doesnt meet the requirements.
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does anyone have a link to this criteria that I keep seeing mentioned?
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The only thing I'm fighting for is to keep this thread ON TOPIC. Sure seems to bother you and a couple of other put down artists ... don't it ???
:neener:
I think the number of positive responses is noted ... AND notable ... AH NEEDS some planes that are interesting and different enough to catch the imagination. MORE model variations that provide essentially the same preformace as existing AH aircraft aren't going to cut it. The ME-410 is such a plane, especially if it gets the big gun. The Catalina PBY may be slow and lightly armed, but it catches the imagination. The DO 335 does too ... Just what the Dr. Ordered and no amount of groaning and whining is going to change that.
:rock
Well said :salute
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does anyone have a link to this criteria that I keep seeing mentioned?
There isn't a direct link, but over the years it's been assumed HTC's criteria has been "Seen Combat, and in Squadron Strength".
There are some debatable planes like the F4u-1C, Me-163 or Ta-152, however these were added and the mindset hasn't changed for a good many years now.
It simply been argued over the years, however it always follows the same guidelines, frankly if HTC is going to add it they will.
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EVZ, you're just not getting the point here.
1) didn't see combat. It was shot at, yes, but the two aren't the same thing.
??? DUH ??? What meds do they have you on?
:rofl
Petition Hitech, he might make an exception to his own rules,
Rules??? He don't NEED no stinkin RULES .... Last I knew, posting in the wish list -IS- how you petition HT? Pray tell, where exactly are these RULES to be found? Kind of fun making them up for him is it? There is a RULE about staying on topic, ever tried it?
but for now pretty much everyone agrees that it doesn't meet requirments.
Pretty much all the disruptive idiots agree, I guess ... any of them missing? You guys got a club? Must have, seems like somebodys been hitting you all in the head with it !
:P
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??? DUH ??? What meds do they have you on?
Eve you seem to routinely miss the point here - Do-335 won't be added in game - no matter how much you wish.
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Pretty much all the disruptive idiots agree, I guess ... any of them missing? You guys got a club? Must have, seems like somebodys been hitting you all in the head with it !
:P
Why is arguing their.point of view that the plane is not eligible disruptive. By making this thread you allowed them the oppurtunity to voice their opinion. Both negative and positive responses should be expected and welcomed.
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Again, if you blunder into a combat zone because you're to stupid to pay attention to the rattle of gunfire up ahead, and end up getting shot at, you weren't in combat. You were in close proximity to it, you were in a combat zone, but you yourself didn't take part in the combat.
Saying the Do 335 saw combat is like going to Iraq as a tourist, seeing a few US soldiers there with guns, and then coming back and telling everyone that you've seen some action.
No officially posted rules from HTC, but we've identified some minimums that they have ALWAYS followed. Not one single plane, tank, halftrack, or boat breaks the rules. Since they've followed those guidelines for 10 years, its safe to say they won't break them now.
Just like gravity. You can't see it, but you know its there by observing it's effects and how it interacts with objects. Black holes too, come to that.
And the Wishlist is just where we suggest things that HTC might do in the future. Very few things get added anytime within 3 years of being requested. Only one I can think of off hand that DID get added very soon after it was requested is the armor penetration and armor layout charts. Try sending Hitech a PM, he might listen to you, though with your attitude I'm inclined to doubt it.
So your definition of a disruptive idiot is "anyone that tells me I can't have what I want, even if theres very good, logical, and sound reasons why I can't"?
Sounds a lot like the conclusion a petulant 5 year old would arrive at.
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OK folks - lets remember a couple of things.
1. For us - this is a game.
2. For HTC - this is business, and businesses thrive and survive by being responsive to their customers.
We could argue back and forth endlessly about what criteria should be accepted for the inclusion of aircraft into the game - to my mind there is enough actual flight data on the Do-335 and it is an interesting enough aircraft to warrant consideration. Lets face it - we are all a bunch of WW2 aircraft geeks - if the Do-335 was in the hanger, I am pretty sure most people would give it a try and I am willing to bet it would get a lot more flight time in the MA than many other rides I see being asked for in the wishlist.
IMHO HTC would not do badly changing things up a bit given that this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJZUirJmLC8 is coming.
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Lol, I'm an alpha tester for that, and while I can't give you details, i CAN tell you its not all that great. at least not yet.
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No officially posted rules from HTC, but we've identified some minimums that they have ALWAYS followed. Not one single plane, tank, halftrack, or boat breaks the rules. Since they've followed those guidelines for 10 years, its safe to say they won't break them now.
Was the Spitfire 1 in squadron service and see combat at the end of the war?
What about the 109E?
If not, then why are they enabled in the LWMA?
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OK folks - lets remember a couple of things.
1. For us - this is a game.
2. For HTC - this is business, and businesses thrive and survive by being responsive to their customers.
We could argue back and forth endlessly about what criteria should be accepted for the inclusion of aircraft into the game - to my mind there is enough actual flight data on the Do-335 and it is an interesting enough aircraft to warrant consideration. Lets face it - we are all a bunch of WW2 aircraft geeks - if the Do-335 was in the hanger, I am pretty sure most people would give it a try and I am willing to bet it would get a lot more flight time in the MA than many other rides I see being asked for in the wishlist.
IMHO HTC would not do badly changing things up a bit given that this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJZUirJmLC8 is coming.
If you watch the video, its got eye candy, however I can tell you the gameplay will be nothing more then World of warcraft flown by a bunch of newbies.
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Was the Spitfire 1 in squadron service and see combat at the end of the war?
What about the 109E?
If not, then why are they enabled in the LWMA?
Because its an enabling criteria, it doesn't follow that if a type is withdrawn from service, that it should not be available in LWMA, why should it? I doubt a Spit 1 is really going to be a threat to anyone but the pilot.
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Because its an enabling criteria, it doesn't follow that if a type is withdrawn from service, that it should not be available in LWMA, why should it? I doubt a Spit 1 is really going to be a threat to anyone but the pilot.
If the Critera is anecdotial, (which is I believe, fielded to some degree operationaly, saw combat, shot at something or got shot at) but assumed accurate...
Why was the P51H part of a vote?
What I mean is that the anecdotal does not really mean anything. I understand the P51H poll is VERY old, but if there is no actual proof then almost anything is up for game isn't it?
P51H
Meteor
P47M
Ta152
ME163
Do335<--does not seem unrealistic to me
I'm biased though: (I totally want to fly this, it's so completly unique to what we have :x)
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Was the Spitfire 1 in squadron service and see combat at the end of the war?
What about the 109E?
If not, then why are they enabled in the LWMA?
They were not originally when the EWA, MWA and LWA system was set up, but people who are fans of those aircraft asked for them to be enabled in the LWA so that they could fly the aircraft they liked where the crowds were.
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and end up getting shot at, you weren't in combat. You were in close proximity to it, you were in a combat zone, but you yourself didn't take part in the combat.
Maybe you can explain that to the Chaplin giving the dying last rites on the front line, the Corpmen getting shot-up and killed trying to stop the wounded's bleeding, the photo journalist being sniped at as he records the gory details ... and that pilot running for his life from 3 angry english tempests whom you seem to feel STUMBLED into a COMBAT ZONE called -GERMANY- in 1945. Tell it to the WAR dept that gives them medals and the widows putting flowers on the graves of their children. Lets see how many of em take a poke at your nose ... ?
:furious
So your definition of a disruptive idiot is "anyone that tells me I can't have what I want, even if theres very good, logical, and sound reasons why I can't"?
I have no problem with someone who feels the need to disagree ... Until they FEEL they have to dispute EVERYONE and try to intimidate and discredit those who disagree with them ... then try and divert the thread to THEIR pet subject and start making up non-existant rules and redefining war dept. criteria that has been accepted since the revolutionary war ... gee who do we know who does that?
:mad:
HT will do what he thinks best about the 335. I can live with that. I hope he likes it as much as many of us do. I sincerely doubt he pays much attention to the habitually disruptive element.
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If the Critera is anecdotial, (which is I believe, fielded to some degree operationaly, saw combat, shot at something or got shot at) but assumed accurate...
Why was the P51H part of a vote?
What I mean is that the anecdotal does not really mean anything. I understand the P51H poll is VERY old, but if there is no actual proof then almost anything is up for game isn't it?
P51H
Meteor
P47M
Ta152
ME163
Do335<--does not seem unrealistic to me
I'm biased though: (I totally want to fly this, it's so completly unique to what we have :x)
As you said, the poll was extremely old before an EW, MW, Late War arena system was setup. As popular as the P51-D is in the Main Arena, wouldn't the P51-H likely be already added if there wasn't a system put into place shortly after that list was created?
Back then Aces High was going through a transitional phase, trying to find out what worked - due to lack of players two Late War Arenas were combined to join one Arena, which I think was a better option overall - problem with the two late war arenas was, If half your squadies were in one arena, and its locked due to too many players, you were only able to join the second Late War Arena - which if most of your "countries" usual population was in the first arena - you again were stuck in the second arena.
We even had night time, which didn't last either. Now we only have this in the snapshot arena which I was hoping this would spark some more interest, but really it hasn't changed.
Right now we recently went through a change in the GV system, with the commanders view and automatic transmission. Few months ago it was a war zone of whines over the change, honestly I loved the new change and found it easier to learn to GV. I once never touched a ground vehicle till the new system rolled out. Soon the system will change to balance out the ground vehicles, lowing the spotting range of attack aircraft, giving Ground vehicles a chance to survive.
Back to main topic - its always been REALLY debatable over the Do-335 issue, I still say it would be a nice "wish" but never added in game.
If it did I wouldn't mind spending a hundred or so perks to fly it.
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Again, if you blunder into a combat zone because you're to stupid to pay attention to the rattle of gunfire up ahead, and end up getting shot at, you weren't in combat. You were in close proximity to it, you were in a combat zone, but you yourself didn't take part in the combat.
Saying the Do 335 saw combat is like going to Iraq as a tourist, seeing a few US soldiers there with guns, and then coming back and telling everyone that you've seen some action.
No officially posted rules from HTC, but we've identified some minimums that they have ALWAYS followed. Not one single plane, tank, halftrack, or boat breaks the rules. Since they've followed those guidelines for 10 years, its safe to say they won't break them now.
Just like gravity. You can't see it, but you know its there by observing it's effects and how it interacts with objects. Black holes too, come to that.
And the Wishlist is just where we suggest things that HTC might do in the future. Very few things get added anytime within 3 years of being requested. Only one I can think of off hand that DID get added very soon after it was requested is the armor penetration and armor layout charts. Try sending Hitech a PM, he might listen to you, though with your attitude I'm inclined to doubt it.
So your definition of a disruptive idiot is "anyone that tells me I can't have what I want, even if theres very good, logical, and sound reasons why I can't"?
Sounds a lot like the conclusion a petulant 5 year old would arrive at.
If you are getting shot at, you are in combat whether you can shoot back or not. If a destroyer is under air attack, wouldn't
you consider every member of that crew in combat? Even the enginemen who can't possibly fight back?
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I am not aware of any Do335 that actually got shot at.
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I am not aware of any Do335 that actually got shot at.
Pierre has been widely debatable, any case I will just leave this here:
"French ace Pierre Clostermann claimed the first Allied combat encounter with a Pfeil in April 1945. In his book The Big Show (pages 273-274) he describes leading a flight of four Hawker Tempests from No. 3 Squadron RAF over northern Germany, when he intercepted a lone Do 335 flying at maximum speed at treetop level. Detecting the British aircraft, the German pilot reversed course to evade. Despite the Tempest's considerable low altitude speed, the RAF fighters were not able to catch up or even get into firing position."
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Pierre has been widely debatable, any case I will just leave this here:
"French ace Pierre Clostermann claimed the first Allied combat encounter with a Pfeil in April 1945. In his book The Big Show (pages 273-274) he describes leading a flight of four Hawker Tempests from No. 3 Squadron RAF over northern Germany, when he intercepted a lone Do 335 flying at maximum speed at treetop level. Detecting the British aircraft, the German pilot reversed course to evade. Despite the Tempest's considerable low altitude speed, the RAF fighters were not able to catch up or even get into firing position."
Note that the Do335 was not shot at in that account. "the RAF fighters were not able to catch up or even get into firing position."
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If you watch the video, its got eye candy, however I can tell you the gameplay will be nothing more then World of warcraft flown by a bunch of newbies.
I don't doubt it - but with that much eye candy they are sure to attract a good number of us ww2 aircraft geek gamers to at least give it a try.
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I don't doubt it - but with that much eye candy they are sure to attract a good number of us ww2 aircraft geek gamers to at least give it a try.
Sure, I am willing to give it a go also, however after seeing some reviews from some of the more die hard pilots, I won't be missing much of it.
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I am not aware of any Do335 that actually got shot at.
So you feel that a REAL COMBAT pilot hangs around to face 3-4 to 1 odds so that he QUALIFYS for the extra $$$ they pay him ... ?
:uhoh
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So you feel that a REAL COMBAT pilot hangs around to face 3-4 to 1 odds so that he QUALIFYS for the extra $$$ they pay him ... ?
:uhoh
No matter how you try and spin it, you cannot deny the indisputable fact that the Do 335 never saw any combat action.
Was the Pfeil ever fired on? No.
Did the Pfeil ever engage an enemy plane in combat? No.
Did the Pfeil ever fire its guns at another plane? No.
Was the Pfeil in operational service? No.
Are there any combat records for the Pfeil? No.
There are more worthy windmills to tip your lance at, the Pfeil isn't one of them.
ack-ack
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No matter how you try and spin it, you cannot deny the indisputable fact that the Do 335 never saw any combat action.
In THIS documented instance, A Do-335 was ATTACKED ... unsuccessfully ... according to YOU this was a _NON-COMBAT_ attack ... So the tempest S&D mission was NON COMBAT also? Since THEY didn't fire their guns? -OR- the tempests WERE flying COMBAT since they TRIED to Attack? But the plane they attacked was NOT? If they HAD shot it down then !!! WOW a NON COMBAT KILL !!! Your reasoning would seem to imply that ALL fighter sorties flown in WWII that didn't involve targets located and FIRED ON were NOT COMBAT MISSIONS ??? Keep digging, you're half way to china already !
:lol
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In THIS documented instance, A Do-335 was ATTACKED ... unsuccessfully ... according to YOU this was a _NON-COMBAT_ attack ... So the tempest S&D mission was NON COMBAT also? Since THEY didn't fire their guns? -OR- the tempests WERE flying COMBAT since they TRIED to Attack? But the plane they attacked was NOT? If they HAD shot it down then !!! WOW a NON COMBAT KILL !!! Your reasoning would seem to imply that ALL fighter sorties flown in WWII that didn't involve targets located and FIRED ON were NOT COMBAT MISSIONS ??? Keep digging, you're half way to china already !
:lol
I never said the French mission that day (it was Free French pilots flying those Tempests) was a non-combat one. I am saying, and there is the pilot's own account, that there wasn't any combat between their Tempests and the supposed Do 335 they spotted many miles away from them. In Clostermann's own words, he and the rest of his flight were not able to close on the bandit to engage it in combat. They tried to attack the Do 335 but the Do 335 quickly left the area and did not engage in combat.
Look, we all realize that you want this plane and will invent any fantasy scenario that you can think of to make it fit the criteria that's been used for planes to be included in the game. We get it but you don't seem to realize that no matter how you try and spin it, the plane doesn't meet any of the criteria that has been used for other planes.
ack-ack
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If you are getting shot at, you are in combat whether you can shoot back or not. If a destroyer is under air attack, wouldn't
you consider every member of that crew in combat? Even the enginemen who can't possibly fight back?
difference is that a destroyer will fire back. We're not talking about the individual crew members, any more than we're talking about the pilot of the Do-335. I think that, for vehicles, aircraft, or weapons, firing at the enemy is a requirment for combat.
Maybe EVZ getting shot isn't such a good example. It would be more like taking a fancy new battle rifle over to Iraq for field testing, having a few bulllets fly in the general direction of the soldier carrying it (but not even close enough to make the veteran duck!) without said soldier ever seeing the enemy, let alone firing the rifle, and then saying that its been "tested in combat".
Yes, the rifle was being carried by a soldier who has seen combat, and was in a combat zone. No, the rifle did not recieve field testing, as it was never fired. No it was not "tested in combat", no testing took place, and quite arguably no combat even took place.
Point being that, smart-assed, trying-to-be-clever hair splitting aside, we need to be rational about things. Looked at without the "I want this!" goggles on, can you honestly say that this plane was in, in combat, and took part in said combat by engaging enemy aircraft or ground targets?
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They tried to attack the Do 335 but the Do 335 quickly left the area - no matter how you try and spin it
Yep, he EVADED THE ENEMY's superior strength... Smart Move. I'm sure that scenario was repeated HUNDREDS of times in the european theatre, by BOTH sides ... Under DOD guidelines, the entire country of germany was an air combat zone. EVERY mission flown, by ANY type aircraft was COMBAT. Now I think we can all agree the pentagon is NOT "Spinning" anything, and I don't think referencing official policy is either. YOU are the person insisting "That doesn't count."
:cool:
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Flying a mission in a combat zone is different than flying a combat mission, regardless of what the make-believe "official" defenition you pull out of your arse is.
You can be in a combat zone and not be in combat. "Combats" is litteraly french for fighting, and fighting requires that you do something TO the enemy. If you turn tail and run, THEY might have been fighting, but YOU sure as hell weren't
And whos defenition are we going by? For the hell of it, lets go by Iceland's defenition combat.
EVZ, you really are starting to behave like a petulant child, and quite frankly, its growing tiersome. You can't seem to accept that the Do 335 is NOT a worthy addition to Aces High. Nobody has derailed your thread (we're still talking about the Do 335), nobody has done ANYTHING to deserve the label "disruptive idiot" if anything, that label is best applied to you.
My suggestion would be to take a step back, and try to look at things from an unbiased perspective. Or better yet, have your parents proof read your posts.
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Im still curious about EVZ's ingame name.
Yea i need a kill :lol
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Im still curious about EVZ's ingame name.
Yea i need a kill :lol
Wanta bet it starts with a v?
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Flying a mission in a combat zone is different than flying a combat mission, regardless of what the make-believe "official" defenition you pull out of your arse is.
Make believe? ... maybe you are THAT ignorant ... DOD stands for DEPT OF DEFENSE ... While OTHER countrys may have variations on DOD definitions and protocols, they generally base THEIR standards on these same established principles.
You can be in a combat zone and not be in combat. - fighting requires that you do something TO the enemy. If you turn tail and run, THEY might have been fighting, but YOU sure as hell weren't.
The Geneva Convention is probably as close as humanity has ever come to RULES OF WARFARE. It says that ALL military personel are combatants. -- It's obvious you are NOT aware of the principles of Strategic Withdrawl, Tactical Manuver, or Defense in Depth. I doubt you have any REAL knowledge of the conduct or warfare at all. NOT shooting at the enemy is often just as important as shooting at him.
nobody has done ANYTHING to deserve the label "disruptive idiot" if anything, that label is best applied to you.
Your (quoted) posting is completely off topic and essentially a personal attack. That's disruptive, the IDIOCY is self evident. All of it is repetitive and self indulgent. The others engaging in similar activity know who they are and are readily apparent to everyone.
:noid
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EVZ,
I agree that if the Do335 had been on a combat mission and encountered four Tempest Mk Vs the best thing for it to do would have been to run.
Now, what do you think would have happened with this Do335 had it encountered a C-47 Skytrain or L-4 Grasshopper? This is where we run into a problem considering that encounter with the Tempests to have been combat, the Do335's reaction to run needs to have been a calculated one based on the number of hostile fighters, not the default action of an unarmed prototype on an evaluation flight.
There was no chance of that Do335 doing anything remotely aggressive, even against a single, unarmed Allied aircraft.
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http://gifs.gifbin.com/1233928590_citizen%20kane%20clapping.gif
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EVZ, I agree that if the Do335 had been on a combat mission and encountered four Tempest Mk Vs the best thing for it to do would have been to run.
That's progress!
Now, what do you think would have happened with this Do335 had it encountered a C-47 Skytrain or L-4 Grasshopper? This is where we run into a problem considering that encounter with the Tempests to have been combat, the Do335's reaction to run needs to have been a calculated one based on the number of hostile fighters, not the default action of an unarmed prototype on an evaluation flight. There was no chance of that Do335 doing anything remotely aggressive, even against a single, unarmed Allied aircraft.
I'm not real sure WHERE you get the info that this was an UNARMED test plane? It certainly doesn't come from the french pilot that chased it. A convienient assumption? Here's a different sources ( www.skylighters.org/encyclopedia/do335.html ) information regarding the 335's combat deployment.
"Plagued by mechanical unreliability and lack of aviation fuel, the operational career of the Do335 is rather obscure. Do335A-0 and A-1 aircraft are thought to have flown a number of operational missions with EK335. Some were also used by III/KG2 in the Spring of 1945." Like the french pilots report, this info isn't sourced or verifiable in any definative way ... BUT ... it IS a reference to OPERATIONAL DEPLOYMENT with SPECIFIC, VERIFIABLE, SQUADRONS.
:cool:
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A source that says "Is thought to have flown a number of operational sorties" as your best source is extremely weak. How about actual primary source documentation that supports any operational deployment?
No, the vast likelyhood is that the Do335 in question, if Pierre Closterman wasn't making it up in the first place which was something he did at times, was an unarmed prototype that was doing an evaluation flight.
And take your insulting "That's progress!" roadkill and eat it. I posted that only to get you over the moronic quibbling that you are doing over self evident things that you arrogantly don't think the rest of us understand.
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A source that says "Is thought to have flown a number of operational sorties" as your best source is extremely weak. How about actual primary source documentation that supports any operational deployment?
Weak? maybe, I wouldn't consider it strong ... But it's MORE than you've got! Maybe you could sneak into the basement at the Kremlin and spend a couple of years examining the captured documents from WWII that have never been cataloged? - Eyewitness and Anecdotal reports are all that exist regarding much of what occured during the fall of germany ... requesting more is just unrealistic diversion. The fact that reference to OPERATIONAL MISSIONS and DEPLOYMENT to VERIFIABLE squadrons exists -IS- significant, even (especially) if it DOESN'T suit your argument.
No, the vast likelyhood is that the Do335 in question, if Pierre Closterman wasn't making it up in the first place which was something he did at times, was an unarmed prototype that was doing an evaluation flight.
So, while requesting primary source documentation of combat deployment, you base your argument against it on a convienient, unreferenced, assumption? WOW that's credibility !
:rofl
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Why r you so scared tellin us your ingame name? Do you even have any?
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I PMed HiTech about that rules for aircraft inclusion and he told me that no rule does exist, but they want aircraft that did see service during WW2. with that being said the Do-335 does not meet that standard. but other aircraft that have been turned down by the BBS Community do. such as the F7F Tigercat, It did see service with the USMC in a squadron. so that makes it available for consideration to be included in the line up. now i believe more important aircraft should be added first insted of a late late war aircraft. but it is nice to know that aircraft that came in late in the war that didn't shoot at enemy aircraft but saw service in some way in squadron strength could be included.
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Why r you so scared tellin us your ingame name? Do you even have any?
Whatever his name is in game is not relevant to this discussion.
ack-ack
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Why r you so scared tellin us your ingame name? Do you even have any?
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/sqdlist.php?player=TonyJoey&arena=0
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See that EVZ? HTC just said to fullmetalbullet that they don't want planes that didn't see active service.
The Do 335 is (by HiTech's own word) not what they're looking for.
Get over it.
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See that EVZ? HTC just said to fullmetalbullet that they don't want planes that didn't see active service.
The Do 335 is (by HiTech's own word) not what they're looking for.
You really DO like to make things up don't you...?
:x
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You really DO like to make things up don't you...?
:x
yes we do. hey tank-ace did you know the nazis nuked new york. it was on the tv so it must be true.
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I PMed HiTech about that rules for aircraft inclusion and he told me that no rule does exist, but they want aircraft that did see service during WW2.
SO ... all this insistance about a RULE that disqualifys the 335 has just been misleading ... perhaps well intentioned, but based on assumption and BS ... I just provided a source that references COMBAT SERVICE with Verifiable German Squadrons in an earlier post today. It's admittedly sketchy and MORE info is certainly desirable, but the same situation exists inre: the 152.
with that being said the Do-335 does not meet that standard.
And I'm Betting THAT is YOUR conclusion and NOT something HT actually SAID ... is it?
:aok
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Ta-152 saw service in WWII, and had multiple kills. The ONLY simmilarity between the 152's situation and the Do 335's is that few were built.
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And I'm Betting THAT is YOUR conclusion and NOT something HT actually SAID ... is it?
:aok
that conclusion is based on HiTech saying that they want aircraft that saw service. the Do-335 did not see service. what do you not get about it being a prototype. and granted a few production types were built but it never did see service. the He-162 did see some service and that qualifies it to be considered for inclusion. but the Do-335 does not ever qualify for consideration.
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Ta-152 saw service in WWII, and had multiple kills. The ONLY simmilarity between the 152's situation and the Do 335's is that few were built.
Yes very few ... around 40 total 152s, ... with never more than 15 servicable at one time. Info on 152 operations is sketchy and much of it is unverifiable just like the 335 ... many records were scattered, destroyed, or captured by the Russians. This has all been repeated a couple of times previously ... Do you bother to READ the threads you are posting in?
:rolleyes:
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that conclusion is based on HiTech saying that they want aircraft that saw service. the Do-335 did not see service. what do you not get about it being a prototype. and granted a few production types were built but it never did see service. the He-162 did see some service and that qualifies it to be considered for inclusion. but the Do-335 does not ever qualify for consideration.
So just to be clear HT DID NOT TELL YOU the 335 was unsuitable for AH. He told you there ARE NO RULES and you immediately decided to make one up ... again ... SO ... here's THIS .... AGAIN ....
( www.skylighters.org/encyclopedia/do335.html )
"Plagued by mechanical unreliability and lack of aviation fuel, the operational career of the Do335 is rather obscure. Do335A-0 and A-1 aircraft are thought to have flown a number of operational missions with EK335. Some were also used by III/KG2 in the Spring of 1945."
That looks suspiciously like a sourced reference to 335 combat operations with not 1, but 2 VERIFIABLE GERMAN SQUADRONS.
:banana:
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And your point is..... what exactly? The Ta-152 still entered mass production. It still saw service in WWII. It still has confirmed kills. You can't say any of those things about the Pfiel.
And so what if records are potentially lost or destroyed? We don't even know for sure what there was to go missing or be destroyed in the first place. For all you know, all records we have for the Do 335 are all there ever was. Not exactly likely, but the fact remains that its possible.
But the point is that we don't have full records (or as I said before, maybe we do). We don't know if it saw service (all evidence suggests no). We don't know if it had any kills (again, all evidence suggests no).
We don't know for sure if the Maus prototype was used against the Russians, as is sometimes claimed, and we don't have any irrefutable proof that it didn't. But that doesn't mean the Maus has any reason to be in the game. And the same stands for your pfeil.
But, like an idiot, you're going to pull some BS out of your arse and claim it has some connection with reality, and that its vague and incorrect references to what actually happened somehow supports your request for the Do 335. I don't know why I even bother feeding an obvious troll :bhead.
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We don't even know - we don't have - maybe we do - We don't know - We don't know - We don't know - I don't know
I agree, you don't know much ...
:D
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So just to be clear HT DID NOT TELL YOU the 335 was unsuitable for AH. He told you there ARE NO RULES and you immediately decided to make one up ... again ... SO ... here's THIS .... AGAIN ....
( www.skylighters.org/encyclopedia/do335.html )
"Plagued by mechanical unreliability and lack of aviation fuel, the operational career of the Do335 is rather obscure. Do335A-0 and A-1 aircraft are thought to have flown a number of operational missions with EK335. Some were also used by III/KG2 in the Spring of 1945."
That looks suspiciously like a sourced reference to 335 combat operations with not 1, but 2 VERIFIABLE GERMAN SQUADRONS.
:banana:
"Are thought to have flown" is hardly proof of operational service. Keep grasping at those straws.
ack-ack
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"Are thought to have flown" is hardly proof of operational service. Keep grasping at those straws.
I don't have to prove anything to anybody ... If HT wants to see references, I'll provide any I know of ... Another point of interest: some folks MAY remember an old TALON SOFT strategy sim called BOMBING THE REICH ... Interestingly, THEY decided to include the 335 in THEIR very detailed SIM.
:eek:
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And? Detailed isn't the same as historicly accurate. Hell, detailed isn't the same thing as realistic even.
WWIIOL is very detailed (much more so than Aces High, in some ways)..... but its not historicly accurate. The same can be said of World of Tanks. Its a very detailed game with very little realism.
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Keep grasping at those straws.
COMBAT FLIGHT SIM 3 also decided to include the DO 335. And, here's an interesting, if unverified, reference -
- "This plane was allege to have be operational (name deleted), Do 335V-10 CP+UK 230010 A-6 prototype night ftr with SN-2 radar, It may have taken part in the Lufwaffe's "Operation Gisela" -
In January 1945 'Operation Gisela' was planned. It was to be a long range nightfighting and bombing effort over England. With a British night bombing raid in progress, the German nightfighters and bombers were to cross the North Sea at very low level and intrude on the British over their aerodromes whilst they were landing. The whole thing was planned to render the south of England unsafe first, then central England and finally the north
This was DEFINATELY COMBAT and the timing coincides perfectly for combat testing a new and unproven DO 335 nightfighter.
:cool:
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So If I understand this correctly:
No one can post anything on HTC's criteria for current inclusion.
Someone asked HTC a couple posts ago and supposedly he said there was none (or nothing posted)
...and we're still trying to prove what HTC would include or not?
Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I specifically asked this question, in this post, and was essentially told twice that there is not a specific answer.
So like...why do people tell each other what HTC will or will not include? :rolleyes:
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This is what HiTech sent to me.
There is no hard and fast rule. But generally we want planes to have seen service.
HiTech
That is exactly what he told me. They want planes to have seen service in WW2 to be added or considered for addition to Ace High.
The Do-335 does not even qualify for consideration. and i believe it will never be considered by HTC for addition. unless there is proof that it infact saw some kind of service other then in test flights.
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This is what HiTech sent to me.
That is exactly what he told me. They want planes to have seen service in WW2 to be added or considered for addition to Ace High.
The Do-335 does not even qualify for consideration. and i believe it will never be considered by HTC for addition. unless there is proof that it infact saw some kind of service other then in test flights.
You're doing it again...
Define "seen service"
...and with that I'm totally outta this :O
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COMBAT FLIGHT SIM 3 also decided to include the DO 335. And, here's an interesting, if unverified, reference -
- "This plane was allege to have be operational (name deleted), Do 335V-10 CP+UK 230010 A-6 prototype night ftr with SN-2 radar, It may have taken part in the Lufwaffe's "Operation Gisela" -
In January 1945 'Operation Gisela' was planned. It was to be a long range nightfighting and bombing effort over England. With a British night bombing raid in progress, the German nightfighters and bombers were to cross the North Sea at very low level and intrude on the British over their aerodromes whilst they were landing. The whole thing was planned to render the south of England unsafe first, then central England and finally the north
This was DEFINATELY COMBAT and the timing coincides perfectly for combat testing a new and unproven DO 335 nightfighter.
:cool:
"Alleged to have been operational" and "It may have taken part in..." hardly qualifies for as verifiable proof.
Keep grasping at those straws...
ack-ack
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You're doing it again...Define "seen service"
!!! :rofl !!!
HT says : "There is no hard and fast rule. But generally we want planes to have seen service."
He does NOT say- Service in WWII ...
He does NOT say - COMBAT
He does NOT say - In Squadron Strength
He MOST notably does NOT say - NO DO 335
The problem is that certain individuals seem to feel that since rules DO NOT EXIST, they are free to MAKE THEM UP. AND this has mislead a lot of well meaning folks who really have no malicious intent. Evidently AH is not enough of a game for some folks and they feel the need to make this forum into one too.
If it interests anyone ... The reference I mentioned regarding a do335 night fighter participating in Operation Gisela MAY refer to German Night Fighter Ace Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer (121 kills) who commanded the 4th night fighter wing (ju88G). Documentation is VERY incomplete, but it is verified that Schnaufer was delivered a DO335 night fighter in Jan of 45 and that he was ENTHUSED about the plane. It suspected that the plan was to re-equip his wing with the DO335 NF Varient, but this remains undocumented. Given the state of affairs in germany at that time, it's unlikely an operational aircraft was allowed to sit idle if a pilot was available. Operational use of this DO-335 is completely in keeping with Schnaufer's character and reputation. He Was Germany's youngest wing commander and led his men from the cockpit.
:cool:
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!!! :rofl !!!
HT says : "There is no hard and fast rule. But generally we want planes to have seen service."
He does NOT say- Service in WWII ...
He does NOT say - COMBAT
He does NOT say - In Squadron Strength
He MOST notably does NOT say - NO DO 335
The problem is that certain individuals seem to feel that since rules DO NOT EXIST, they are free to MAKE THEM UP. AND this has mislead a lot of well meaning folks who really have no malicious intent. Evidently AH is not enough of a game for some folks and they feel the need to make this forum into one too.
If it interests anyone ... The reference I mentioned regarding a do335 night fighter participating in Operation Gisela MAY refer to German Night Fighter Ace Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer (121 kills) who commanded the 4th night fighter wing (ju88G). Documentation is VERY incomplete, but it is verified that Schnaufer was delivered a DO335 night fighter in Jan of 45 and that he was ENTHUSED about the plane. It suspected that the plan was to re-equip his wing with the DO335 NF Varient, but this remains undocumented. Given the state of affairs in germany at that time, it's unlikely an operational aircraft was allowed to sit idle if a pilot was available. Operational use of this DO-335 is completely in keeping with Schnaufer's character and reputation. He Was Germany's youngest wing commander and led his men from the cockpit.
:cool:
Please post the records of any Do 335 that saw any service with any active Luftwaffe squadron. The fact is that the Do 335 never saw any service with any squadron nor did it encounter any combat save one unconfirmed report by a French ace.
Like I said earlier, keep grasping for those straws.
ack-ack
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Please post the records of any Do 335 that saw any service with any active Luftwaffe squadron.
WHY? HT also DID NOT SAY he requires any kind of PROOF. Are you under the impression anyone cares what YOU think?
:rolleyes:
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WHY? HT also DID NOT SAY he requires any kind of PROOF. Are you under the impression anyone cares what YOU think?
:rolleyes:
you obviously do because of your pathetic attempts to convince us all that you're right despite the absence of any verifiable facts to back up any of your claims.
Just to clue you in because you seem to lack any...when someone says "must have seen service" then that means there must be some sort of evidence to show that it saw service or it wouldn't qualify. You've failed to show the necessary proof. Basically, you've failed and dramatically at that.
ack-ack
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WHY? HT also DID NOT SAY he requires any kind of PROOF. Are you under the impression anyone cares what YOU think?
:rolleyes:
Why do you insist on arguing with people who've been in the community far longer then you that might know the answer?
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WHY? HT also DID NOT SAY he requires any kind of PROOF. Are you under the impression anyone cares what YOU think?
:rolleyes:
I care what Ack-Ack thinks he is a very knowledgeable person. :salute
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
That just proved to me the immaturity you have been displaying this whole thread.
Goodbye sir.
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I see no point in this continuing.