Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: EVZ on January 05, 2012, 12:42:48 PM
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How about a -WHAT IF?- arena with an altenative reality of the war continuing into 1946? This is a LONG TERM concept looking into the future of AH, not a wish for immediate gratification ... maybe it's unrealistic, but ??? it MIGHT appeal to quite a few people? It could include many of the aircraft / vehicles people WANT that don't seem to qualify for inclusion in LW. Tiger Cat, Bearcat, F80, P51H, Meteor, B36, WHAT ELSE?
In this thread, I won't be responding to the disruptive element that wants to Deny Any Possibility of the game developing in this direction. Ignoring them seems the best policy. I recommend it.
:)
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Bleh, no. Lets stop this drive for "Whatever is added has to dominate what we already have" attitude.
HiTech's comment reported in the Do335 thread already leaves the F7F, F8F, He162, Ki-102, Meteor Mk III (already known due to the last poll), Spitfire F.21 and Tempest Mk VI as options.
The other problem with many 1946/47 planes is that flight data is not available for a wide selection of them. The J7W1, as an example, looks really interesting, but who knows how it would have performed as it only ever did its initial, gear down, test flights.
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Personally, I would much rather see AH remain a "modeled-on-real-life" flightsim than become a "what-if" flightsim.
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I would be interested of any account of a Bearcat or Tigercat expending a single round of ammo on any thing that was (or was of) an enemy in 1945.
back to the OP...IMO we still have some "WHAT WAS" stuff outstanding.................. ...
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C.200 saetta...
:noid
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:X
HE MENTIONED THE PEACEMAKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:rock :rock :rock :rock
:D :D :D :D
Except that then nukes would basically certainly HAVE to be added, because that's what it was-- nuke warz!! :x
Second thought: the B-36 was asked for by the U.S gov in '41 (I think) as a representation of the ability to bomb heartland Europe from the States, should the British lose it all. Much like Germany's Amerika Bomber project.
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C.200 saetta...
That's an easy one ... just scale your throttle control back to 80% and fly a C.202
:O ... 1946 not 1936
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That's an easy one ... just scale your throttle control back to 80% and fly a C.202
:O ... 1946 not 1936
Not really. A Daimler Benz 601 weighs a lot more than a Fiat radial engine.
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Except that then nukes would basically certainly HAVE to be added, because that's what it was-- nuke warz!! :x
In proposing a "what if" 1946 Arena, I was presuming that the "BOMB" was never used or if it was, it fizzled... Maybe the new weapons and suicide attacks were more effective in that world and the war continued.
Second thought: the B-36 was asked for by the U.S gov in '41 (I think) as a representation of the ability to bomb heartland Europe from the States, should the British lose it all. Much like Germany's Amerika Bomber project.
Yeah, I think so, part of the same reasoning that prompted the Hercules development and other related projects. Were any of the Russian Heavys ready in 46?
:rock
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In proposing a "what if" 1946 Arena, I was presuming that the "BOMB" was never used or if it was, it fizzled... Maybe the new weapons and suicide attacks were more effective in that world and the war continued.
Yeah, I think so, part of the same reasoning that prompted the Hercules development and other related projects. Were any of the Russian Heavys ready in 46?
:rock
Good idea. "What if" all the stuff burnt up/had coffee spilt on it/all the scientists died. Or something :P
Like the Tu-95 and 142 and all that stuff? I don't think so. They had the Pe-8 though :O that might be nice...
The I-300 (first soviet jet) on April 23rd, I think?
And the La-150. In september.
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Good idea. "What if" all the stuff burnt up/had coffee spilt on it/all the scientists died. Or something :P
Radiation Poisoning?
:devil
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I dont think the HTC staff needs to spend any time putting things into the game that go beyond the actual timeline of WW2. The reason is... there are many planes that need to be added... that were in WW2... that have not yet been added. The Japanese planeset is woefully incomplete. So are the Russian and Italian planesets. Not to mention there are countries that were in the war just as France (yeah yeah... spare me the jokes) that have no representation at all.
I think that perhaps... once the WW2 planes and vehicles are more complete... and the older, less realistic 3d models have all be updated... sure... why not go in a new direction. Korea... UBoats... whatever.
From the postings I catch from the HTC staff here and there... they have a vision of what AH is to be. So far... I havent seen any indication of that vision including anything beyond WW2. But hey... we werent expecting WW1 either.
You just never know.
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HiTech's comment reported in the Do335 thread already leaves the F7F, F8F, He162, Ki-102, Meteor Mk III (already known due to the last poll), Spitfire F.21 and Tempest Mk VI as options.
Could you point me to it, couldn't find it. Would like to read it.
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I dont think the HTC staff needs to spend any time putting things into the game that go beyond the actual timeline of WW2. The reason is... there are many planes that need to be added... that were in WW2... that have not yet been added. The Japanese planeset is woefully incomplete. So are the Russian and Italian planesets. Not to mention there are countries that were in the war just as France (yeah yeah... spare me the jokes) that have no representation at all.
I think that perhaps... once the WW2 planes and vehicles are more complete... and the older, less realistic 3d models have all be updated... sure... why not go in a new direction. Korea... UBoats... whatever.
From the postings I catch from the HTC staff here and there... they have a vision of what AH is to be. So far... I havent seen any indication of that vision including anything beyond WW2. But hey... we werent expecting WW1 either.
You just never know.
I'll answer for you, EVZ :P
He was just wondering that if/when HTC has done all that is feasible with WWII, then what could potentially be added to a post-war arena/ an arena that provides one possiblility for the war had it not stopped in '45.
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Wish: I WISH I had the YB-40/we should have the YB-40/I Want the YB-40.
This thread, along with many others: maybe someday, WHEN POSSIBLE, wouldn't it be cool to have this? If yes, what would happen?
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Could you point me to it, couldn't find it. Would like to read it.
Here you go. I asked him about this so called "Criteria" they want aircraft that have seen service.
There is no hard and fast rule. But generally we want planes to have seen service.
HiTech
Service of some kind dosnt normally mean actually shooting at enemy planes. we know that due to the meteor being on the last aircraft poll.
This being said almost all late late war aircraft that did see some kind of service in WW2 could be considered.
EVZ! Please, Im all for experimental aircraft or a "what if" situation. Me personally i would love to see the Ho-229 in Aces High. but lets keep AH WW2, WW1 and maybe Korea.
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Here you go. I asked him about this so called "Criteria" they want aircraft that have seen service.
Service of some kind dosnt normally mean actually shooting at enemy planes. we know that due to the meteor being on the last aircraft poll.
This being said almost all late late war aircraft that did see some kind of service in WW2 could be considered.
Do-335 doesn't make the grade since it wasn't out of prototype stage.
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Do-335 doesn't make the grade since it wasn't out of prototype stage.
Thats what we have been trying to tell him, but he refuses to believe it.
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Thats what we have been trying to tell him, but he refuses to believe it.
The holiday for school children is almost over.
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This being said almost all late late war aircraft that did see some kind of service in WW2 could be considered.
Part of the reasoning behind this topic is that those aircraft produced to late to see actual combat during hostilities would have a place here.
There's a whole generation of planes that are worthy of attention and have an appeal to most AH players.
Im all for experimental aircraft or a "what if" situation. Me personally i would love to see the Ho-229 in Aces High.
The Ho-229 was actually built in 1945 and production was intended AFAIK. It's possible it could have gotten into the fight in 1946. Lack of actual performance specs would require some INSPIRED programing I suppose, but I'd bet it would be a popular ride.
I don't think the moderator locked the 335 thread so that it could be transfered here. We should probably avoid that.
:aok
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I would be interested of any account of a Bearcat or Tigercat expending a single round of ammo on any thing that was (or was of) an enemy in 1945.
back to the OP...IMO we still have some "WHAT WAS" stuff outstanding.................. ...
Those are all i flew once I got my expansion pack for Aces Over the Pacific (1994). I imagine that it would make the game less fun overall unless they were only enabled on certain days or special occasions.
Don't forget the Fw 190 D-12
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Don't forget the Fw 190 D-12
I think The D-12 was passed over in favor of the D-13. The only(?) difference being the 13 had a 20MM in the nose instead of the 30MM.
AFAIK, a few of these were in service in 1945 ??? It should definately have a place in a 1946 arena.
:cool:
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I think The D-12 was passed over in favor of the D-13. The only(?) difference being the 13 had a 20MM in the nose instead of the 30MM.
AFAIK, a few of these were in service in 1945 ??? It should definately have a place in a 1946 arena.
:cool:
Meh, I'd love either but I think the game would stay truer to the war by keeping planes that never saw combat out of regular play. Perhaps they should be enabled once eny is sky high for the high numbered side. Instead of limiting what the most populated country can fly, let the smallest countries get extra stuff when severely outnumbered.
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Meh, I'd love either but I think the game would stay truer to the war by keeping planes that never saw combat out of regular play. Perhaps they should be enabled once eny is sky high for the high numbered side. Instead of limiting what the most populated country can fly, let the smallest countries get extra stuff when severely outnumbered.
Well the basic idea here is a WHAT IF? arena with planes that can honestly be expected to have seen combat had the war continued. ENY can be annoying, I agree ... it DOES already affect Perk Cost, (& points earned) on both sides I think? So advanced aircraft DO become more readily available? (those with the required points are more likely to have the abilitys to use them). Personal experience when flying at odds of 4 & 5 to 1 (MWA) lead me to appreciate having the enemy limited to ZEEKS in such a case. 4 of us held a base against 15+ attackers, never could have done so if they had F6Fs and Seafires.
:cool:
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Majority of the players have expressed a dislike of the "Post-War BS" arena, or PWB for short. Why should HTC go far out of their way to accomodate a few loudmouths?
All I've got to say is make your own flight sim, and you can fill it with B-52's and F22's for all anyone will care. Its your game.
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Service of some kind dosnt normally mean actually shooting at enemy planes. we know that due to the meteor being on the last aircraft poll.
I am not a fan of meteor inclusion but at least it fired rounds at enemy aircraft even if they were unmanned...................
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Majority of the players have expressed a dislike of the "Post-War BS" arena, or PWB for short. Why should HTC go far out of their way to accomodate a few loudmouths?
All I've got to say is make your own flight sim, and you can fill it with B-52's and F22's for all anyone will care. Its your game.
It's not actually going to happen... it's a WISHLIST. See topics on nukes, B-36s, He-177s, Do-335s, and Ho-229, and a myriad of others.
I would say it's more thana few loudmouths
who would LOVE to have a post-war/what-if arena... ask in-game, and there would probably be a higher number of peope there than here, because even though you have a BBS account, and don't play, there are loads of other people who have it the other way around.
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I would say it's more thanwho would LOVE to have a post-war/what-if arena... ask in-game, and there would probably be a higher number of peope there than here, because even though you have a BBS account, and don't play, there are loads of other people who have it the other way around.
Gamers who expect each patch to bring ever more powerful equipment like you see in games like World of Warcraft and the new Star Wars MMO.
Aces High simply cannot operate like that.
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I am not a fan of meteor inclusion but at least it fired rounds at enemy aircraft even if they were unmanned.
I'm not a big fan of the meteor either, but I can see why it attracts a following. A 1946 arena would probably include the Meteor.4 version which seems to me to be the point at which the meteor matured. If ever included in AH, I hope they use the WHITE skin as the default ... The Brits painted them white to end the FREQUENT misidentification of the meteor as a 262.
:cool:
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Gamers who expect each patch to bring ever more powerful equipment like you see in games like World of Warcraft and the new Star Wars MMO.
Aces High simply cannot operate like that.
I want my +5 armor, +4 speed, +10 hitting power Panther Tank power up.
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LOL what about the Stars that make you flash, and the mushrooms that make you get twice as big?
I'm still waiting to hear back from skuzzy on why my game genie isn't working.
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I want my +5 armor, +4 speed, +10 hitting power Panther Tank power up.
How about a Russian IS-3 Shchuka ? - 220mm Armor, 122mm Gun, 37mph. Rumored to have participated in the fall of Berlin, definately in service 1946.
:rock
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Here's a thought, why don't we worry about getting planes and vehicles into the game that actually saw significant service DURING the war. I just don't understand this constant need for bigger, better, faster, especially when there are so many gaping holes in the plane set from the war years.
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Here's a thought, why don't we worry about getting planes and vehicles into the game that actually saw significant service DURING the war. I just don't understand this constant need for bigger, better, faster, especially when there are so many gaping holes in the plane set from the war years.
This stuff gets asked for because the gamers demand that new additions should be able to turn older additions into confetti with ease, or as it is usually phrased, they want stuff added that won't be hangar queens.
It is absurd as it is obviously not sustainable..
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Here's a thought, why don't we worry about getting planes and vehicles into the game that actually saw significant service DURING the war. I just don't understand this constant need for bigger, better, faster, especially when there are so many gaping holes in the plane set from the war years.
In a Nut shell : It seems to me the people who see GAPING HOLES have a collector mentality and WANT EVERYTHING just because it existed, not because it makes the game any better. That's OK ... BUT I think the dynamics of AH are, and need to be, oriented more towards an entertainment envorinment than towards a museum.
If the game want's to be profitable and competitive, it's going to have to provide the public with what it want's ... take a look around, where IS the public? At the carnival in the mall parking lot? or in the museum across the street? The fuddy duddys running the museum may RESENT the Carnival, but THAT isn't going to drag a single paying customer thru the museum door. Park a Big SEXY Do335 outside ... and the Museum MAY attract some attention.
I think HT has done a pretty good job of balancing realism and entertainment, upcoming additions will contribute to both. I'd bet we BOTH want to see AH Live Long and Prosper. I certainly don't object to anyone wishlisting for planes that don't interest me. Why do you suppose some people do?
:)
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WANT EVERYTHING just because it existed, not because it makes the game any better.
That kinda seemed like your main arguement for the 335.
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That kinda seemed like your main arguement for the 335.
And the main reason his argument is pretty much invalid, just because it was "Created" doesn't mean it served in WW2 in operational status.
Wishlist? Sure no problem - but lets try to be reasonable, there are dozens of airframes that deserve to be in Aces High for the historical reasons alone before some fantasy aircraft that never fired a shot in anger appears.
I would argue a 1946 arena would be interesting, only if the main plane sets for the EW/MW/LW arenas were filled out first.
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And the main reason his argument is pretty much invalid, just because it was "Created" doesn't mean it served in WW2 in operational status.
Wishlist? Sure no problem - but lets try to be reasonable, there are dozens of airframes that deserve to be in Aces High for the historical reasons alone before some fantasy aircraft that never fired a shot in anger appears.
I would argue a 1946 arena would be interesting, only if the main plane sets for the EW/MW/LW arenas were filled out first.
Agreed.
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Wow EVZ, you seem to have absolutely no clue about why we're asking for those planes that "don't make the game better".
We're asking for them beause they fill in major gaps in scenarios and special events, which is a BIG thing for aces high. Nobody has anything quite like it, and its proved popular enough that WoT (probably something you would consider to be a top of the line game) copied it as best they could. We're asking for them because they're sometimes better reprasentative of a plane from a specific time than a current variant we have now. And we ask for them because they would be more fun to fly than something like a Do 335, or an F2G.
Bigger, faster, better(?) may be good if theres some worthwhile goal to accomplish that requires you to be in a very competative plane. But then again, my 190A5 or 109E always seemed competative, so I don't really need bigger, faster, better. The same is true of most players as well.
BTW, are you aware of the fact that the Is-3 is still inferior to the Tiger II in every way, save its HE shells? Hell, even the Panther's 75mm penetrates more armor at close range.
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but lets try to be reasonable, there are dozens of airframes that deserve to be in Aces High for the historical reasons alone
(yawn) - BORING .... (just the thing to attract -0- paying customers) Good for the eulogy when they shut down and bury AH maybe?
I would argue a 1946 arena would be interesting, only if the main plane sets for the EW/MW/LW arenas were filled out first.
Fuddy Duddy - Fuddy Duddy, (sorry) I don't Fuddy Duddy!
:lol
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That kinda seemed like your main arguement for the 335.
Just to keep the record straight ... My "argument" for the 335 was stated in the original post. - "This plane would add a new dimension to late war and provide some serious competition for the 51s, 262s, and LA7s." Evidently some people find that objectionable.
The moderator LOCKED that topic ... Do you intend to reopen it here?
:huh
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No, EVZ, that was how you tried to rationalize your argument. Your actual argument was "I want it, gimme gimme gimme!".
And butcher, forgot to mention this earlier, but if we're going to get away from the WWII thing, wouldn't a Korean War arena be a better use of our time? We could actually give it the map win objective while maintaining some semblance of realism.
It would also give us a wider variety of aircraft.
Not that I think we should be going for the later stuff. If they put serious work into a post war or Korean War arena, and gave it the map win 'objective' like in the MA's, my bet is that most people move to that arena so they can fly the best thing available.
In other words, all the work HTC would have done upto that point would basicly be just a larger version of what the WWI arena is now.
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a korean war would be as useful as the ww1 arena. people who request sabres and what not should go in the ma and try to turn fight with 262's.
semp
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No, EVZ, that was how you tried to rationalize your argument. Your actual argument was "I want it, gimme gimme gimme!".
And butcher, forgot to mention this earlier, but if we're going to get away from the WWII thing, wouldn't a Korean War arena be a better use of our time? We could actually give it the map win objective while maintaining some semblance of realism.
It would also give us a wider variety of aircraft.
Not that I think we should be going for the later stuff. If they put serious work into a post war or Korean War arena, and gave it the map win 'objective' like in the MA's, my bet is that most people move to that arena so they can fly the best thing available.
In other words, all the work HTC would have done upto that point would basicly be just a larger version of what the WWI arena is now.
May I point out your linguistics fail
s now?
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*edited for occurrence of a miracle. See following post, where EVZ grasps a subtlety.*
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where do you see "s now"? I said "is now" in the last scentence, but aside from that, I think thats the only place where the letters S and N are next to each other
:rofl
it's a PLURAL dude ... he's adding an S to your -fail-
:angel:
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LOL what was the first paragraph?? Confusing, mostly :/
You had said "linguistic fail" in a different thread, and I wanted to preserve the truth and nothing but the truth. So, I tried to add an 's' onto the end, outside of the quote, but it didn't work :(
Also, see:
--basicly=basically
--upto=up to
^ That was your previous post.
The most recent one:
--scentence=sentence
--nessicarily=Necessarily
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He did it weird then. He should have edited the quote, and put a bolded "s" after the "fail".
But even so, hes attempting to point out something that isn't there, and on top of that, hes using that term in an incorrect context.
B-17's, thats spelling-fail, which is completely different from linguistics-fail. Linguistics-fail could be loosely defined as shooting yourself in the foot by screwing up a definition, or failure at an attempt to look clever due to incomplete understanding or grasp of the topic.
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--hes=he's
I'm on my phone; it displays things wierd.
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He did it weird then. He should have edited the quote,
Ohyez, I have noted that some people posting here seem to think that editing quotes is an allowable sin. ???
and put a bolded "s" after the "fail".
SO B-17, I guess you have BOLDLY-failed, where many have gone before ...
:lol
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:lol This thread amuses me; let's not stop bickering, shall we??? :D
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Just to keep the record straight ... My "argument" for the 335 was stated in the original post. - "This plane would add a new dimension to late war and provide some serious competition for the 51s, 262s, and LA7s." Evidently some people find that objectionable.
The moderator LOCKED that topic ... Do you intend to reopen it here?
:huh
No I do not.
51's La-7's and 262's are easily defeated by other planes. Most kills I land are 51's Spit 16's or La's. The plane I fly the most is the Brewster which is a 30 ENY plane. It only takes 3 50 cals and a 30 cal.
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51's La-7's and 262's are easily defeated by other planes. Most kills I land are 51's Spit 16's or La's. The plane I fly the most is the Brewster which is a 30 ENY plane. It only takes 3 50 cals and a 30 cal.
Sounds like you have all the idiots and noobs who think they can turn fight a brewster with a 51 covered. An alternative aircraft might be nice for dealing with those who have something that resembles a brain. Aside from the occassional B&Z pass, I prefer an I-16 for brewster busting. (but the KI works well too in LW).
:rock
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Oh, but we do have an alternative aircraft for those with a brain. Infact, we have over 100. My personal favorite is the 109E.
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No I do not.
51's La-7's and 262's are easily defeated by other planes. Most kills I land are 51's Spit 16's or La's. The plane I fly the most is the Brewster which is a 30 ENY plane. It only takes 3 50 cals and a 30 cal.
If they can catch them/vulch them/sneak up on them when they're AFK/spawn-kill them/HO them.
You've also got twice the engines, and about 4 times the power of the average lawnmower we have in-game.
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Sounds like you have all the idiots and noobs who think they can turn fight a brewster with a 51 covered. An alternative aircraft might be nice for dealing with those who have something that resembles a brain. Aside from the occassional B&Z pass, I prefer an I-16 for brewster busting. (but the KI works well too in LW).
:rock
When I dont fly a brewster I fly a D-11 or a mossie.
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"This plane would add a new dimension to late war
Just to be clear how does this add a new "dimension"? All it is is a very fast plane with decent guns.
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Ultimate answer to this thread.
Nothing past WW2 should be in the game.
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--hes=he's
I'm on my phone; it displays things wierd.
get on your phone to ah so you can get your account back :D.
semp
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Just to be clear how does this add a new "dimension"? All it is is a very fast plane with decent guns.
I'd suggest you read thru the Do335 thread ... Sorry, I'm not going to reopen the topic here.
:angel:
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people who request sabres and what not should go in the ma and try to turn fight with 262's.
Here's an INTERESTING jet that would maybe qualify for a 1946 arena ... It was scheduled to be completed in May of 45 with production aircraft available in October ... but the factory was captured in april. FW TA - 183 ... Turnfight THIS!
(http://www.luft46.com/fw/ta183bp1.jpg)
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Here's an INTERESTING jet that would maybe qualify for a 1946 arena ... It was scheduled to be completed in May of 45 with production aircraft available in October ... but the factory was captured in april. FW TA - 183 ... Turnfight THIS!
(http://www.luft46.com/fw/ta183bp1.jpg)
And what are the performance numbers for the Ta183? Oh yeah, nobody knows so they would just be fantasy guess numbers. Sorry, but a 1946 arena would be, with few exceptions, just for American, British and Russian aircraft.
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You can experience 1946 right now; sit at home and listen to the radio while trying to find your way back into civilian life.
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And what are the performance numbers for the Ta183? Oh yeah, nobody knows so they would just be fantasy guess numbers. Sorry, but a 1946 arena would be, with few exceptions, just for American, British and Russian aircraft.
Not exactly FANTASY ... There's quite a bit of info available ... if you really have any interest in it. AND it's NOT from US, GB, or USSR sources or even from GERMAN ones.
The RUSSIANS captured the factory and prototypes and never shared any info. It's speculated that they were particularly tight about releasing anything regarding this aircraft because the EARLY MIG aircraft were developed from it. What is known about the design comes from 2 sources ... Sweden received complete development info on the aircraft thru industry contacts. The info was used extensively in designing the 1st Swedish jet, the SAAB J 29 "Tunnan." -AND- plans were smuggled out by at least one German who made it to Argentina where the plane was actually produced as the FMA IAe 33 Pulqui II, after the war. It failed to be a commercial success for Argentina due to the fall of Juan Perone and the availability of CHEAP SURPLUS F-84s & F 86s after Korea.
:P
GERMAN VERSION
Crew: one
Length: 9.20 m (30 ft 2 in)
Wingspan: 10.00 m (32 ft 10 in)
Height: ()
Wing area: 22.5 m² (242 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,380 kg (5,247 lb)
Loaded weight: 4,300 kg (9,480 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Heinkel HeS 011 turbojet, 13 kN (2,700 lbf)
Maximum speed: 955 km/h (593 mph)
Service ceiling: 14,000 m (45,932 ft)
Rate of climb: 20.4 m/s (4,020 ft/min)
Wing loading: 196 kg/m² (41 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.37
4 × 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 108 cannons
4 × Ruhrstahl X-4 Wire Guided AAMs or 500 kg (1,102 lb) of bombs
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The info isn't real though. It is guesses. The Ta183 never flew. That is what I am trying to point out to you. You are suggesting the equivalent of modeling Japanese aircraft based on the performance data from US Navy recognition charts that were guessing how the Japanese aircraft in question performed.
How do you not understand this?
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The info isn't real though. It is guesses. How do you not understand this?
The documentation provided to the swedes is unquestionably real ... These specs were included. The Russians captured everything else it seems and AFAIK have NEVER released a single photograph or document ... but most aircraft buffs DO make the immediate association with the early MIGs upon seeing the drawing.
What I do understand is your policy of griefing every aircraft submitted that isn't on YOUR APPROVED LIST ... and of making completely fictitious assumptions and statements like "The info isn't REAL" in this case it was REAL enough to enable development of 2 different aircraft by 2 different countries. (and probably served to bring the soviets into the jet age too.) like I said - it's interesting !
:neener:
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(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Wmaker/Ta183_productionline.jpg)
:noid
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(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Wmaker/Ta183_productionline.jpg)
:noid
LOL well played. Seems to me some folks will be SAABing soon :)
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The documentation provided to the swedes is unquestionably real ... These specs were included. The Russians captured everything else it seems and AFAIK have NEVER released a single photograph or document ... but most aircraft buffs DO make the immediate association with the early MIGs upon seeing the drawing.
The specs are not flight data. How do you not understand that? The Ta183 never flew therefor there are only performance estimates, not actual flight data. You are asking for a fantasy aircraft. I can show you such estimates for many, many aircraft, some of which flew and some of which did not. I can show you were estimates were pretty spot on and I can show you examples where the estimates were wildly off to the better or worse. You are asking for an aircraft that never existed. Even the prototype with a weaker engine and no guns never flew.
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Karnak, what is your understanding that the Russians captured the prototypes and factory and did nothing further than utilise them as paperweights before supplying this mystical data to the Swiss?
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Karnak, what is your understanding that the Russians captured the prototypes and factory and did nothing further than utilise them as paperweights before supplying this mystical data to the Swiss?
I highly doubt that they completed development of the intended engine, added the intended armament and tested it. They may, or may not have, flown the prototype. Remember, Russian jet engines were based off of the Jumo that is in the Me262, not the more advanced engine that the Ta183 was intended to use. The Russians didn't actually have a competitive jet engine until the Brits gave them a Rolls-Royce, which is what they used in the MiG-15.
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The specs are not flight data. - You are asking for a fantasy aircraft. - You are asking for an aircraft that never existed.
First you want specs you claim don't exist, when those are provided, that's not good enough ... You got some special knowledge, You know what nobody else does ... You seen the captured documentation? Russian SPY here boys, trying to sabotage the development program at AH ... Call out the firing squad !!! :banana:
Anyway, what - I ASKED - was in regards to a possible What If arena based on the notion the war had continued into 1946 (yes THAT's a FANTASY!!!) ... I mentioned this plane as a very likely addition for that arena and an interesting aircraft with an interesting story ... Sorry if the notion of HT doing anything YOU don't approve first is offensive.
:angel:
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Not exactly FANTASY ... There's quite a bit of info available ... if you really have any interest in it. AND it's NOT from US, GB, or USSR sources or even from GERMAN ones.
The RUSSIANS captured the factory and prototypes and never shared any info. It's speculated that they were particularly tight about releasing anything regarding this aircraft because the EARLY MIG aircraft were developed from it. What is known about the design comes from 2 sources ... Sweden received complete development info on the aircraft thru industry contacts. The info was used extensively in designing the 1st Swedish jet, the SAAB J 29 "Tunnan." -AND- plans were smuggled out by at least one German who made it to Argentina where the plane was actually produced as the FMA IAe 33 Pulqui II, after the war. It failed to be a commercial success for Argentina due to the fall of Juan Perone and the availability of CHEAP SURPLUS F-84s & F 86s after Korea.
:P
GERMAN VERSION
Crew: one
Length: 9.20 m (30 ft 2 in)
Wingspan: 10.00 m (32 ft 10 in)
Height: ()
Wing area: 22.5 m² (242 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,380 kg (5,247 lb)
Loaded weight: 4,300 kg (9,480 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Heinkel HeS 011 turbojet, 13 kN (2,700 lbf)
Maximum speed: 955 km/h (593 mph)
Service ceiling: 14,000 m (45,932 ft)
Rate of climb: 20.4 m/s (4,020 ft/min)
Wing loading: 196 kg/m² (41 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.37
4 × 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 108 cannons
4 × Ruhrstahl X-4 Wire Guided AAMs or 500 kg (1,102 lb) of bombs
*Throws yellow flag* FLAG ON THE PLAY!! *talks to the other Refs
There's a flag on the play, Wikipedia is being used as a Source, Minus 20 yards and still 4th Down.
You need a better credible sources, or ask someone that might have it, without even looking I know that's wiki-nobody checks credibility-pedia.
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Not exactly FANTASY ... There's quite a bit of info available ... if you really have any interest in it. AND it's NOT from US, GB, or USSR sources or even from GERMAN ones.
The RUSSIANS captured the factory and prototypes and never shared any info.
Anyone else notice this discrepency, and its clear implication of ignorance of the subject?
There was no Russia between 1926 and 1991. There was the Russian Federated Socialist Republic, which was part of the larger collective USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, for EVZ, as he probably doesn't know the acronym). Yet he explicitly says the USSR, the place of origion for the Migs, didn't have access to the data that the Migs were suposedly based off of. He goes on to say that a defunct government (Russian Empire..... that or hes talking about the current Russian Federation) captured a German factory in WWII, during which time neither of those governments existed.
Clearly he doesn't know his subject matter. Call out the firing squad for Karnak? I say call out the truant officer to take you back to school.
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EVZ is incorrect is claiming the Ta183 influenced the MiG 15, which it didn't. Russian aviation historian Yefim Gordon, wrote a detailed and comprehensive book on the Russian development of the MiG 15 and showed quite clearly that, although the MiG 15 did bear a slight resemblance in layout, it was an entirely independent development.
ack-ack
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First you want specs you claim don't exist, when those are provided, that's not good enough ... You got some special knowledge, You know what nobody else does ... You seen the captured documentation? Russian SPY here boys, trying to sabotage the development program at AH ... Call out the firing squad !!!
I asked for data that has not been provided. You provided what you in your ignorance you thought was the data requested and when it was pointed out to you that it was not the data that is needed you get huffy. The fact that you cannot understand very basic concepts is not my problem.
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Anyone else notice this discrepency, and its clear implication of ignorance of the subject?
There was no Russia between 1926 and 1991. There was the Russian Federated Socialist Republic, which was part of the larger collective USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, for EVZ, as he probably doesn't know the acronym). Yet he explicitly says the USSR, the place of origion for the Migs, didn't have access to the data that the Migs were suposedly based off of. He goes on to say that a defunct government (Russian Empire..... that or hes talking about the current Russian Federation) captured a German factory in WWII, during which time neither of those governments existed.
Clearly he doesn't know his subject matter. Call out the firing squad for Karnak? I say call out the truant officer to take you back to school.
Oh, PLEASE, SPARE me the DRAMA!!!!!!!!!!!
You're what? 16? 18?
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Oh, PLEASE, SPARE me the DRAMA!!!!!!!!!!!
You're what? 16? 18?
The funny thing is it's Nemesis that is showing his ignorance with his last post.
ack-ack
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Who's Nemesis?
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Russian aviation historian Yefim Gordon, wrote a detailed and comprehensive book on the Russian development of the MiG 15 and showed quite clearly that, although the MiG 15 did bear a slight resemblance in layout, it was an entirely independent development.
Yeah! ??? Q: Who writes a book about WHO DIDN'T INVENT SOMETHING ??? A: RUSSIANS ... They invented Coffee, Donuts, and the Buffalo Nickel too ... according to typical Communist Literature ... What they DIDN'T do was let anyone get a good look at the TA-182.
Wiki has the SAME data everyone else does, As I understand it? It was included with the Blueprints the Swedes Got from the Germans.
:D
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Who's Nemesis?
I think that's one of Moriarity's Aliases ....
:rofl
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And what are the performance numbers for the Ta183? Oh yeah, nobody knows so they would just be fantasy guess numbers.
Considering the considerable amount of number crunching that goes into a design of any aircraft, the fact the aircraft never flew doesn't make the numbers "fantasy guess numbers".
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Considering the considerable amount of number crunching that goes into a design of any aircraft, the fact the aircraft never flew doesn't make the numbers "fantasy guess numbers".
I have seen said numbers be wildly off on designs from back then. Would they have been for the Ta183? I don't know.
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My point is that numbers doesn't need to be "guessed" or drawn out of a hat for the Ta183. Saying that the numbers would be "fantasy guess numbers" is just as false as saying that, if built, the aircraft would hit the said numbers with absolute certainty.
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wasnt a version of the Ta-183 built for the argentinian airforce after the war by FW. or was that just a false story?
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wasnt a version of the Ta-183 built for the argentinian airforce after the war by FW. or was that just a false story?
From one of my earlier posts:
What is known about the design comes from 2 sources ... Sweden received complete development info on the aircraft thru industry contacts. The info was used extensively in designing the 1st Swedish jet, the SAAB J 29 "Tunnan." -AND- plans were smuggled out by at least one German who made it to Argentina where the plane was actually produced as the FMA IAe 33 Pulqui II, after the war. It failed to be a commercial success for Argentina due to the fall of Juan Perone and the availability of CHEAP SURPLUS F-84s & F 86s after Korea.
;)
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wasnt a version of the Ta-183 built for the argentinian airforce after the war by FW. or was that just a false story?
Kurt Tank left for Argentina after the war, and attempted to finish his projects like the Ta-183 - only problem was the lack of funds, because his projects were just to expensive, eventually things fell apart and his projects were canceled. Tank felled out of favor and Argentina pretty much decided on War Surplus F-86s which were far cheaper then finishing his 183 project.
This book : DESIGN FOR FLIGHT The Kurt Tank Story by Heinz Conradis is one of the most interesting books you can find about Tank, although I think very few exist - if you do find it don't pay $40 like I did (i dont feel bad its $60 now on amazon).
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He 162
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/He162_color010.jpg/300px-He162_color010.jpg)
It did fly, it did see some sort of combat.
Whilst not representative of WWII military aircraft it is closer to the spirit of AH2 than some of the fantasy stuff above........................ .........
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He 162
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/He162_color010.jpg/300px-He162_color010.jpg)
It did fly, it did see some sort of combat.
Whilst not representative of WWII military aircraft it is closer to the spirit of AH2 than some of the fantasy stuff above........................ .........
I agree, as much as I would like a 1946 Arena, the biggest problem is choosing only aircraft that went into production - rather then prototypes, However really cool designs like the AD-1 Skyraider was just about to come into production when the war ended.
Still prop driven, it carried 4x 20mms and 8,000lbs of ords while only doing like 325mph at alt. Early Jets didn't have the thrust to carry heavy ords, and it pressed the Skyraider into combat in Korea and Vietnam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWtMTCXOynM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWtMTCXOynM)
Gives me a chance to play one of my favourite Youtube videos, an F4u-4 Starting up, as well as a Skyraider taxing in, listen to both engines - the Skyraider was total monster!
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If HTC decide to add stuff based on calculated numbers rather than fight test numbers that is up to them, but I would rather they did not.
The He162 meets the currently understood criteria for inclusion in AH.
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If HTC decide to add stuff based on calculated numbers rather than fight test numbers that is up to them, but I would rather they did not.
The He162 meets the currently understood criteria for inclusion in AH.
what criteria? But on the fact that you are talking about the He-162, yes it did see service in WW2.
I would leave a 1946 arena out of AH, there is no need for it.
The F7F Tigercat also fits the "Criteria" due to the fact that is was in service with the USMC in WW2.
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what criteria? But on the fact that you are talking about the He-162, yes it did see service in WW2.
There isn't any "criteria" according to AH's recent comments ... There is a PREFERENCE for planes that saw service ... Which is definitely in keeping with the game in it's current form (IMHO). I'm not a big fan of the HE-162, but it DID see service and at least -1- allied flyer believed he had been shot down by one.
I would leave a 1946 arena out of AH, there is no need for it. - The F7F Tigercat also fits the "Criteria" due to the fact that is was in service with the USMC in WW2.
Yeah, the tigercat is a fascinating airplane, but it's unlikely ? to be included in the game as it currently exists. I could fly AH forever without a 1946 arena, but I do think something of the sort is needed. People have played the offline flight sims for years, many of them are drawn to AH because of their enjoyment of those games ... and many are disappointed that some of the planes typically included in those Sims are NOT AVAILABLE in AH ... The public's desire for the SEXY, Fast, late-war rides is readily apparent in the LWA ... and the LACK of participation in WWI, EWA and MWA ... From THAT perspective, AH may indeed NEED a 1946 arena. (???). Revenue is required.
:salute
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what criteria? But on the fact that you are talking about the He-162, yes it did see service in WW2.
The recent clarification that HTC wants the unit to have been in service. Yes, I was speaking of the He162 meeting the criteria. The Ta183 does not.
The F7F Tigercat also fits the "Criteria" due to the fact that is was in service with the USMC in WW2.
Correct.
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There isn't any "criteria" according to AH's recent comments ... There is a PREFERENCE for planes that saw service ... Which is definitely in keeping with the game in it's current form (IMHO). I'm not a big fan of the HE-162, but it DID see service and at least -1- allied flyer believed he had been shot down by one.
Yeah, the tigercat is a fascinating airplane, but it's unlikely ? to be included in the game as it currently exists. I could fly AH forever without a 1946 arena, but I do think something of the sort is needed. People have played the offline flight sims for years, many of them are drawn to AH because of their enjoyment of those games ... and many are disappointed that some of the planes typically included in those Sims are NOT AVAILABLE in AH ... The public's desire for the SEXY, Fast, late-war rides is readily apparent in the LWA ... and the LACK of participation in WWI, EWA and MWA ... From THAT perspective, AH may indeed NEED a 1946 arena. (???). Revenue is required.
:salute
this is surprising coming from the person who recently tried to say the Do-335 saw any kind of service that is not confirmed, and from the experts on this BBS say all evidence points to no it did not.
The recent clarification that HTC wants the unit to have been in service. Yes, I was speaking of the He162 meeting the criteria. The Ta183 does not.
Correct.
Thank you Karnak for agreeing about the F7F.
I do agree that i would like to see a 1946 "what if" arena due to the fact that i love the sexy and thought to be stealthy look of the Ho-229
(http://www.luft46.com/ggart/ggho9-2.jpg)
but AH in my opinion should stay WW2. and later on goto a Korean war game aswell.
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(http://www.debunker.com/images2/UFO1_400dpi.jpg)
I want to believe....
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(http://www.debunker.com/images2/UFO1_400dpi.jpg)
I want to believe....
I would not be surprized if Pyro or HiTech had one, and flew them in the MA from time to time just to stir up stories.
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I would not be surprized if Pyro or HiTech had one, and flew them in the MA from time to time just to stir up stories.
LOL can't wait to see skuzzy's face when someone claims a UFO vulched them landing - oh the whines.
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LOL can't wait to see skuzzy's face when someone claims a UFO vulched them landing - oh the whines.
Lol.
-whiner- "All i saw was lazers and and a disk shaped object."
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this is surprising coming from the person who recently tried to say the Do-335 saw any kind of service that is not confirmed, and from the experts on this BBS say all evidence points to no it did not.
Tried? Experts? :rofl
i love the sexy and thought to be stealthy look of the Ho-229
Yeah ... I'd bet on it being a VERY popular ride.
A Korean Arena is an interesting idea, but I doubt it would entice many NEW USERS into subscribing ... AW had a very limited (but dedicated) user base for the Korean Jets ... In general it just doesn't have the romance of the WWII era ... Fighter Pilots were on their way to becoming truck drivers, ROE limited the scope of engagements, there wasn't really any significant strategic involvement. And perhaps most significantly, NOBODY WON. History will remember Korea for 2 things ... The brilliantly conceived and executed landing at Inchon, and Harry Truman relieving MacArthur from command. It doesn't have the appeal attached to Pearl Harbor, The BOB, D-Day, Guadalcanal, Stalingrad, etc.
:O
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Yeah! ??? Q: Who writes a book about WHO DIDN'T INVENT SOMETHING ??? A: RUSSIANS ... They invented Coffee, Donuts, and the Buffalo Nickel too ... according to typical Communist Literature ... What they DIDN'T do was let anyone get a good look at the TA-182.
Wiki has the SAME data everyone else does, As I understand it? It was included with the Blueprints the Swedes Got from the Germans.
:D
then by all means post any VERIFIABLE documents that prove the MiG 15 was based on the Ta 183.
ack-ack
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then by all means post any VERIFIABLE documents that prove the MiG 15 was based on the Ta 183.
Why? So you can claim they're forgerys ... planted by Aliens Flying Ho 229s ???
:lol
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Why? So you can claim they're forgerys ... planted by Aliens Flying Ho 229s ???
:lol
No, so we can see some primary documentation. Claiming the MiG-15 is based on the Ta183 is the same as the claims that Howard Hughes designed the A6M Zero. Without evidence it is rather insulting to the Russians because it is basically saying they were incapable of such a design effort. Without supporting documentation such a claim must be regarded with grave suspicion.
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Why? So you can claim they're forgerys ... planted by Aliens Flying Ho 229s ???
:lol
From that answer I take it that you have none and are basically talking at your arse like in all of your other posts?
ack-ack
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From that answer I take it that you have none and are basically talking at your arse like in all of your other posts?
I have all I want ... I've even shared some of it. If you want MORE? Go find your own...
:)
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I have all I want ... I've even shared some of it. If you want MORE? Go find your own...
:)
You haven't shared of shown anything to back up any of your claims. Myself and others on the other hand have provided data to back up our claims, such as refutting your claim about the MiG 15 design being influenced by the Ta 183. As the kiddies would say...EPIC FAIL on your part.
ack-ack
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The info isn't real though. It is guesses.
The info you call guesses here is comes largely from Focke Wulf's design specification documents produced during the design phase of the Ta183. I think specs that have come out of such an extensive engineering process are a bit more than just guesses.
If HTC decide to add stuff based on calculated numbers rather than fight test numbers that is up to them, but I would rather they did not.
I agree but it isn't always possible. There are already in the game aircraft which have their performance based on calculated numbers AFAIK. The OP was asking for "what if 1946" arena. Ta183 indeed qualifies as far as "what if" goes. What qualifies for LWA today is irrelevant in that regard. I remember posts about a Con couple years ago saying that "1946-type - what if arena" was one thing that HTC had been thinking about along with Korea and WWI. So it isn't something that HTC has dismissed offhand weather one likes it or not. Right now, I don't think even folks at HTC know if that sort of thing ever gets done or not.
Personally, I wish they'd focus on the work horse units of WWII.
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No, so we can see some primary documentation. Claiming the MiG-15 is based on the Ta183 is the same as the claims that Howard Hughes designed the A6M Zero. Without evidence it is rather insulting to the Russians because it is basically saying they were incapable of such a design effort. Without supporting documentation such a claim must be regarded with grave suspicion.
Did you know that I invented the wheel? True story :noid.
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Did you know that I invented the wheel? True story :noid.
Let me guess ... one day you were riding this tricycle when it hit you ... ... ... In the Head ...!
:rofl
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Did you know that I invented the wheel? True story :noid.
:noid I invented the microwave, microwave burritos, and cup ramen noodles. :noid :D
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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:noid I invented the microwave, microwave burritos, and cup ramen noodles.
really !!! Can I get the Ramen in Choclate and Butterscotch - PLEASE ...?
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really !!! Can I get the Ramen in Choclate and Butterscotch - PLEASE ...?
Chocolate and Butterscotch???? :huh
well, maybe Butterscotch, but Chocolate???? :huh