Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Angus on March 21, 2012, 04:56:47 AM
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This is the second time I ponder on this, after seeing a documentary a long time ago. I lost that one, but kept looking, and stumbled on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_offensive_plans_controversy#Suvorov.2C_.22Icebreaker.22.2C_and_the_1980s
And a lecture:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7zVLfjWzmE
Now, the first time I put this up as a thread, it went up in flames with Boroda at the lancepoint, lol, but at least I found some of the data I was looking for. More will be coming.
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Another one. Just becomes more interesting....
http://wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/stalwarplans.html
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Yes they did. Unfortunately Germany did it first.
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Whatever way you look at it, Stalin knew a war with Germany was inevitable. So it's a very plausible idea that preparations for an invasion were under way. But of course Hitler got in first because that was always part of his master plan.
But the trouble with theories like this isn't whether they're true or not. But how they're used by the current crop of Nazi apologists who want to rewrite history. In their version of events Hitler was forced to defend Germany by invading all his neighbours because of giant plot by Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin and of course the Jews.
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No doubt about it. Probably the reason why Adolf abandoned England invasion.
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No doubt about it. Probably the reason why Adolf abandoned England invasion.
and more importantly the fact that the Luftwaffe failed to achieve Aerial superiority over England in August 1940. :aok
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and more importantly the fact that the Luftwaffe failed to achieve Aerial superiority over England in August 1940. :aok
Did they not fail because they abandoned it?
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But the trouble with theories like this isn't whether they're true or not. But how they're used by the current crop of Nazi apologists who want to rewrite history. In their version of events Hitler was forced to defend Germany by invading all his neighbours because of giant plot by Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin and of course the Jews.
really????
i dont believe the OP was asking for anything more than opinions based on factual events, if you flood the thread with bs then he gets nothing of value and the thread soon gets locked.
yes stalin planned on invading germany, but hitler beat him to the punch by a month.
Angus there was a partial discussion on this topic starting around page 10 of this thread http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,328684.msg4310927.html#msg4310927 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,328684.msg4310927.html#msg4310927) try reading some of these, http://wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/stalwarplans.html (http://wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/stalwarplans.html) http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n3p40_Michaels.html (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n3p40_Michaels.html).
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Why didn't Hitler invade Switzerland? It would make things much easier.
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Did they not fail because they abandoned it?
No they abandoned it because they failed. They lost Battle of Britain.
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No they abandoned it because they failed. They lost Battle of Britain.
Disagree.
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Disagree.
LOL obviously the germans won the Battle of Britain :huh :lol
you seem to fit the description of
the current crop of Nazi apologists who want to rewrite history..
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Angus, here's a long but very good article on the russian front and the stalin/hitler relationship.
http://www.vectorsite.net/twsnow.html
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KgB, you can disagree as much as you want, and also claim that water isn't wet. The fact is that the LW did not manage to acieve acceptable air superiority before the deadline of operation Sea Lion, and they bled heavily while at it. In short, - they failed so badly, that escorted bombers over Britain in daylight operations were abandoned as soon as the autumn of 1940. Withdrawal from that tactic was inevitable.
The air power that the LW lost to Allied guns in 1940 roughly equalled the whole force they used when invading Russia. And the force they used when invading Russia roughly equalled what they had tied up on the Western front, - from the Arctic to the Med.
Just facts. Disagreeing won't make a thing.
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The odd thing is if Russia was planning to invade..... why were they so unprepared when Germany moved first?
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I read many claims and heard several lectures from history professors that claim that Stalin was preparing to attack Germany. Hitler was way ahead of him though and caught the Russians still very unprepared.
The biggest difference between Stalin and Hitler was that Stalin was concentrating on killing his own people.
That and the size of the mustache.
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LOL obviously the germans won the Battle of Britain :huh :lol
you seem to fit the description of
My grand father fought against Nazis, because of him i exist. I hope you and i never meet.
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The odd thing is if Russia was planning to invade..... why were they so unprepared when Germany moved first?
Russia was expecting the attack, they were badly equipped and organized but still they were expecting it with massive numbers. The thing is that Stalin decided himself the defence plan and thought it would be a good idea do defend on the border without using the great distances to strain the German army. He also sacked most of the great leaders that served under the Tzars. The Germans just pierced the front lines with their blitzkrieg tactics and conquered unchallenged until that freezing winter in Stalingrad.
the link I provided earlier will tell you more.
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My grand father fought against Nazis, because of him i exist. I hope you and i never meet.
My grandfather fought WWI from 14 to 18 years old. He nearly fought WWII but was a bit old and had 7 children. My grandparents were quite fortunate they managed to live through WWII laying low in the occupied Paris.
My other side grand parents weren't as fortunate and lost a lot of family and friends during the Allied bombings of Avranche in 44 despite the warinings of the resistance, with high suspicion that my Grand mother was raped by the German occupying troops. She took her secret and mental illness to the tomb.
Normal European life in the early 20th century!
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KgB, you can disagree as much as you want, and also claim that water isn't wet. The fact is that the LW did not manage to acieve acceptable air superiority before the deadline of operation Sea Lion, and they bled heavily while at it. In short, - they failed so badly, that escorted bombers over Britain in daylight operations were abandoned as soon as the autumn of 1940. Withdrawal from that tactic was inevitable.
The air power that the LW lost to Allied guns in 1940 roughly equalled the whole force they used when invading Russia. And the force they used when invading Russia roughly equalled what they had tied up on the Western front, - from the Arctic to the Med.
Just facts. Disagreeing won't make a thing.
And for how long could Britain deffend itself? They were running out of Spit's, never mind pilots. Hitler under estimated Brits, its a fact. If LW were taking too long, who knows how long would it take for ground troops? Then USA would step in and Russians would most likely use that advantage to invade Germany?
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No they abandoned it because they failed. They lost Battle of Britain.
:aok They could have broken the back of the British, but at the 11th hour, Hitler instructed them to focus on attacking the cities which gave the British time to recover and ultimately stop them.
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And for how long could Britain deffend itself? They were running out of Spit's, never mind pilots. Hitler under estimated Brits, its a fact. If LW were taking too long, who knows how long would it take for ground troops? Then USA would step in and Russians would most likely use that advantage to invade Germany?
The LW was depleting faster, and it is questionable how badly the RAF was depleting. You see, the main fight, when the LW faired reasonably well was against RAF's southern system. 10th and 11th group. 12th group did not properly make it into the fight before September, and shone nicely on September the 15th. On September the 16th 1940, the operation Sealion was postponed indefinately due to two things mainly. Those were:
1- The RAF shows itself in growing numbers (which was true)
2- The LW losses are increasing and unacceptable as well as they cannot be replaced fast enough.
The real thing is that the LW never figured out the RAF's group system. 1.200 aircraft + lost in a few weeks and they yet had not figured out.
The BoB might of course never have taken place were it not fur Russian supplied fuel. You should watch the lecture I linked.
Odd enough, Russian patriots often fly off the handle when this theory is aired. I do not see any insult in it. Had I been Stalin, I'd have planned for war against Hitler. Just differently. Well, - there was of course the agenda of world communism....
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:neener:
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:aok They could have broken the back of the British, but at the 11th hour, Hitler instructed them to focus on attacking the cities which gave the British time to recover and ultimately stop them.
Ardy, why do we even bother?????
its not like anyone actually enters one of these conversations with an open mind. they have no real interest in a discussion of merit and value. but we asMuppet's can just take the conversation into our own forum where all the really smart guys hang out......... :D
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Did they not fail because they abandoned it?
Operation Sea Lion was a three phase battle plane: 1) Gain air superiority over the RAF 2) destroy the Royal Navy 3) invade England and defeat the home guard and British Army. Germany could not do phase two or three with completing phase one.
To complete phase one, Hitler and Goring first worked on attempting to lure the RAF into one-sided air combats. Then, they change their strategies by attacking the forward air bases (little strategic important). The British radar defenses was the problem that LW realized that need to be taken out so they worked on that. It had moderate success.
Now Hitler shifted the plans by bombing the main airfields and fighter production. The strategy was working as RAF was loosing planes and production was dropping. With a handful of pilots and planes, RAF was on the blink of being defeated when faith was on their side. One German bomber accidentally bombed London. Churchill order RAF to bombed Berlin, something that Hitler order the LW to "terror bombed" London. Once again, the planes for phase one of Operation Sea Lion was change to night bombing. This gave RAF a huge advantage as they had time to recover and regain numbers and production. Britain defeated Germany, barely.
Hitler was forced to cancel Operation Sea Lion in which neither his army or navy had much confidence anyway.
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Why didn't Hitler invade Switzerland? It would make things much easier.
Nope, It would have been a very costly for Germany because the Swiss Families have a heritage of being gun-carriers and gun-owners. Every Swiss person is required to spend time in the military and they are required by law to take their weapons home after they have finished serving. The army are well trained in fighting in the mountain environment, something that Germany Army did not. Also, Swiss had a strong Air force that would have hurt LW. And Hitler needed a neutral country so that Germany could deposit some of her national funds into Swiss banks.
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Swiss was also a financial gateway to the rest of the world.
Catching Switzerland thus had only a negative side.
And Oak, - The BoB was concluded with almost half of RAF's fighter strength (12th and 13th group) taking very little part.
12th group entered only when the Germans shifted to bombing London, and 13th had their moment of glory when the LW tried to launch an attack on the NE of Britain from Denmark.
Funny that the LW did not figure that the British actually had defences all over the country, not just in the south. And equally funny, that slow thinking and arguments within fighter command kept several squadrons out of the fray.
When all hell was loose over hell's corner (Kent), the RAF had fully equipped and rested squadrons from the Cambridge area and all the way to Scotland, even in N-Ireland.
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And for how long could Britain deffend itself? They were running out of Spit's, never mind pilots. Hitler under estimated Brits, its a fact. If LW were taking too long, who knows how long would it take for ground troops? Then USA would step in and Russians would most likely use that advantage to invade Germany?
You talk as if we had thise huge military force to "step in" with in the early summer of 1940. In truth our entire military forces numbered less then 500,000. In contrast they were at over 12,000,000 in 1945. Most of our Navy was in the Pacific, I believe we had only one of our 4 CVs in the Atlantic, and mush of the surface fleet was of WW1 era dreadnoughts and DDs. We had hardly no landing craft of any kind. Our Air corp was pretty pathetic. Armored forces even worse. Army troops still riding horses. And from sea to shining sea were 50yo Mothers snarling like Pitbulls at Frankie to not draft their sons. We had nothing to step in with.
Truth is America wasnt a force to be reckoned with until 1943.
Who knows what Stalin was thinking. He'd have gotten is butt kicked if he tried invading Germany in '41 or '42. They had a hard enough time with FinLand let alone a Juggernaut like Germany. He had convinced himself that Germany would never fight a two front war and there werent a lot of advisors lining up to argue with him about it. Stalin was far more concerned with enemies within his borders then without. I think he would have simply kept nibbling at the edges like he did in the Baltics, Finland, and nudging closer to the Romania oil the way he did. Stalin was cautious. It wasnt until the Germans was approaching Moscow that spies in Japan reported Japan wasnt going to attack the Soviets in the east. Had Stalin attacked Germany he would have had to keep some of his best troops in the far east.
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The LW was depleting faster, and it is questionable how badly the RAF was depleting. You see, the main fight, when the LW faired reasonably well was against RAF's southern system. 10th and 11th group. 12th group did not properly make it into the fight before September, and shone nicely on September the 15th. On September the 16th 1940, the operation Sealion was postponed indefinately due to two things mainly. Those were:
1- The RAF shows itself in growing numbers (which was true)
2- The LW losses are increasing and unacceptable as well as they cannot be replaced fast enough.
The real thing is that the LW never figured out the RAF's group system. 1.200 aircraft + lost in a few weeks and they yet had not figured out.
The BoB might of course never have taken place were it not fur Russian supplied fuel. You should watch the lecture I linked.
Odd enough, Russian patriots often fly off the handle when this theory is aired. I do not see any insult in it. Had I been Stalin, I'd have planned for war against Hitler. Just differently. Well, - there was of course the agenda of world communism....
Thank you sir, i wasn't aware of those numbers.
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Finland was 1939, and on an "EGO" trip.+
Finland had its defences turning the right way.
The Germans had very little eastern defensive front.
Both Germany and the USSR stacked up their cards OFFENSIVELY on their seperated Polish borders.
Someone being ready for an offence and being attacked first has a bad day.
Anyway, from the lecture, it is well supported that much of Russias arsenal was and had been for years, - offensive weaponry. I could put a dent in the argument, but the sheer amount of info there was a bit stunning.
It's a worthwile lecture to look at. Link is on the first page.
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Oh, KgB, - you're welcome ;)
If I recall right, the LW launched some 2000 aircraft on operation Barbarossa, while another 2000 were tied up facing west.
In 1940, their losses were closer to 3000 on the Western front and the BoB if my memory serves me, - there of almost half in the clash with the RAF after the fall of France untill the autumn of 1940.
I have never been able to find a proper number of plane losses during the western Blitz, but have stumbled on the number 1.100 sometimes. But I do not know if that includes Dunquerque, which was some hundreds of aircraft.
BoB alone in a limited period was some 1.200+ totally lost, mostly bombers, - the work-horses. The crews were LW's finest by the scores.
So, in short, had the LW never tried gaining aerial superiority above southern England, they'd have had one hell of a bigger force to fight the soviets.
And...had they managed to make a truce with the British, the same applies.
Lot of "If's" there.....
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Ardys, why do we even bother?????
its not like anyone actually enters one of these conversations with an open mind. they have no real interest in a discussion of merit and value. but we asMuppet's can just take the conversation into our own forum where all the really smart guys hang out......... :D
You are Muppet, i should've known. You condescending attitude gives it away.
You See, Angus was kind enough to educate me instead of insulting. There is no shame to admit that one was wrong. I'll remember him as a good guy. And you, you just a toothless hyena, afraid or not bright enough to engage into conversation yourself so all you do is stir #$it up.
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The short of it. The soviets were still feeling the aftermath of the Purges. The soviets had absolute, piss-poor communications set up for the front line troops. Stalin was a tactical ignoramus.
Read the book: Stalin's Folly: The first ten days on the Eastern Front, by Constantine Pleshakov. He was able to use the politburo documents in the archives.
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I do not think Russia was ready to invade. Here is what i gather from four wars before Germany invaded them.
Spain
This gave Russia a change to try out their new tanks and aircrafts. The tanks was a disappointing and aircraft did not fair much either. However, the Russians blame the mountain terrain for the poor performance of the equipment and air power has greatly advanced since WWI, but they did gain something that help them out. 1) decided to build a dedicated ground attack aircraft (Il-2) and they formed armed divisions or "corps".
Manchuria
Russian fought a serious of battles with the Japs. This was a point that Russia used hundredths of tanks in the battlefield and decisively defeated the Jap army. This buildup confidence for the Russia. NOTE: Here is where Hitler ignore Jap help. Hitler was gambling on Japaness to invade Russia on the east. He should have looked at the results of Manchuria. The Japs used the battles in Manchuria as a field test of thier army's ability. They really had no attentions to invade Russia, but to see where they need to improve battlefield tactics.
Poland
Russia had plans to invade Poland after signed the alliance act with Germnay. However, they did not expected that Germany would have overtaken Poland so fast so the Russian offensive was hastily organized affair. It was a messy plan as the Rusians troops where not train as hard as the Germans. Thier advancement was disorganized and if any Poland resistance was there, the Russians they may have been stopped cold. Due to the ugly victory, Russian decided to disbanned the tank corps and tank battalions distributed among the infantry unites.
Findland
Another disaster for Russia. After the armistice, Russia know then that it was back to the basic and needed to improve the training.
France
Even though Russia had nothing to do with France, they stood on the sidelines and observed Germany Army. At first, they thought that the battle would be a stalemate. However, after the fast Germany victory with panzer divisions. Russian looked at bring back tank divisions. There were a few things that have change too. Officers where given more authority, political commissars where given less ability to over looked every units and like the Germany, the Russian air force primary mission was to direct support of ground forces.
General Zhukov insisted that "lightning war" would not be the key to victory. He knew, along a few high ranking officials that Germany will invade Russia. However, despite having more troops, tanks and aircraft, Russian was not train ready to attack Germany or fighting off a possible invasion from Germany. Also, Russian weapons are a bit out of date and Stalins paranoia of his staff he purged about 67% of the generals in the Army: 3 of 5 marshals, all 11 vice commissars of war, 75 of the 80 member of the Supreme War Council, 13 of 15 army CO, 51 of 85 corps commanders and 110 of 195 division and brigade commanders.
In all, I do not think Russia had no plans to invade Germany.
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What's always forgotten in these discussions is that Russia and Nazi Germany were allies 1938-1941. The Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement split the landmasses in baltic to be for Russia to conquer and the nazis would take the western part of europe. Russians and nazis split up Poland in mutual agreement and had a non-agression pact. Soviets annexed the baltic countries as a part of the M-R agreement, only Finland had the balls to fight instead of bending over to the red army.
Hitler didn't like the soviets attack to Finland and told Stalin in late 1940 that he won't allow another war against Finland. Interestingly enough the Britts, French and the Dutch offered to assist Finland against the soviets early 1940 but were disallowed passage through nazi Germany and more surprisingly the double faced Sweden who denied help to Finland due to "neutral" status and yet earned millions in profits selling copper and other metals for the nazi war machine.
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You are Muppet, i should've known. You condescending attitude gives it away.
You See, Angus was kind enough to educate me instead of insulting. There is no shame to admit that one was wrong. I'll remember him as a good guy. And you, you just a toothless hyena, afraid or not bright enough to engage into conversation yourself so all you do is stir #$it up.
HAHAHAHAHA wow, so you think that was condescending???? damn you need to meet me in person!!! sarcasm at the stupidity of others is an ingrained part of my personal persona! i am much nicer on line cause intardnet tough guys are pathetic!
now if you had shut your mouth before you typed your diatribe and read the post i had made just prior to the one you quoted, you know the one with the links to places to read about the soviet build up and statements and speeches made by Stalin then maybe you would have found that i, yes even i a condescending Muppet, did try to educate any who was willing to shut their mouths and open their eyes and read a bit of supported factual history.
so i did enter your conversation with a legit attempt to help educate you, i guess you were just not smart enough to be educated.....
oh, and as a foot note, a toothless hyena you say? do you realize that even without teeth the hyena has enough jaw pressure to crush the bones in your limbs pop your skull or/and snap your neck? here, ill google it for you, you can pick which report you would find the most educational... http://www.google.com/search?q=hyena+jaw+strength&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a (http://www.google.com/search?q=hyena+jaw+strength&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a)
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Need to captialise those i's Flotsom. :aok Now back to my COFFEE.
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Need to captialise those i's Flotsom. :aok Now back to my COFFEE.
and the Nazi has spoken!!!!
:rofl :neener: :rofl
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:devil
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You are Muppet, i should've known. You condescending attitude gives it away.
You See, Angus was kind enough to educate me instead of insulting. There is no shame to admit that one was wrong. I'll remember him as a good guy. And you, you just a toothless hyena, afraid or not bright enough to engage into conversation yourself so all you do is stir #$it up.
I'm a muppet too :banana:
toothless hyena huh... muppet bravado got your but hurt?
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I'm a muppet too :banana:
toothless hyena huh... muppet bravado got your but hurt?
i guess he couldnt see my avatar or your sig lne......
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My grandfather could kick all your grandfathers' arses! He fought in ALL the wars! :rolleyes:
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So, in short, had the LW never tried gaining aerial superiority above southern England, they'd have had one hell of a bigger force to fight the soviets.
There pretty much wasnt a Soviet air force after the opening days of Barbarossa. What was left wasnt much of a threat so the Luftwaffe roamed at will. I dont think Losses in BOB had much impact in the east. There the air war was lost in the battle of production and the drainage of Luftwaffe assets to protect Germany from the bomber assault that was to come. Frankly there was no way Stalin would have even considered an invasion until 1942 at the earliest.
Even then you have to wonder at the motivation of the Soviet soldier invading another country under Stalins orders, especially one like Germany with the best army in the world at the time. Even when invaded themselves it was German tyrrany as much as Stalins tyrrany that eventually turned them into a fierce armed force. Its a mystery why Stalin clung stubbornly to the idea that Hitler would not invade in '41 when every possible Intel source he had told him different. But as to the Soviets invading Germany? Not till '42 at the least and maybe not even then.
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I am not claiming that Russia was ready to invade Masherbrum. Just pondering on if their strategy was that way. With a very open mind, mind you!
And KgB, - keep pondering on things. It is a source for entertainment in equilibrum to knowledge. Sometimes one is wrong, and recognizing it rather than defending a wrong point beyond all means is a sign of an independed mind, - the perfect character for...research, - the one pondering on things! You would probably like to meet me, we'd have fun, hehe.
Anyway, - did you realize that on operation Barbarossa, most of the transport was horse-drawn?
While it was not put so in the history books, - operation Barbarossa was in fact the biggest "riding tour" in world's history.
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Anyway, - did you realize that on operation Barbarossa, most of the transport was horse-drawn?
While it was not put so in the history books, - operation Barbarossa was in fact the biggest "riding tour" in world's history.
And the Juggernaut that eventually chased them back west was almost entirely motorized. Much of the wheeled vehicles stamped "Made in USA, Canada, England".
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Oh, Rich52
"I dont think Losses in BOB had much impact in the east"
I beg to differ. LW's losses in the few weeks of the BoB amounted for more than 50% of the strength they deployed in operation Barbarossa. In short, - 50% extra DOES make a difference, - and it is NOT only the aircraft, - it is also the crews.
Same goes with LW's airpower tied up in the west on the eve of Barbarossa. Equal strength as applied on the eastern front.
With Britain at ease from the point of Hitler's "appeal to reason", - the LW could have had their air offensive 2-3 times stronger. Without bothering with the BoB alone, - about 50% stronger, - probably more.
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HAHAHAHAHA wow, so you think that was condescending???? damn you need to meet me in person!!! sarcasm at the stupidity of others is an ingrained part of my personal persona! i am much nicer on line cause intardnet tough guys are pathetic!
Oh wow, he even googled toothless jaw pressure. So you going around telling people they stupid in their faces? Christ, you must be tough in real life because you say so:)
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:aok They could have broken the back of the British, but at the 11th hour, Hitler instructed them to focus on attacking the cities which gave the British time to recover and ultimately stop them.
Another mistake was the English radar was never completely destroyed as it was overlooked by the germans.
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There pretty much wasnt a Soviet air force after the opening days of Barbarossa. What was left wasnt much of a threat so the Luftwaffe roamed at will. I dont think Losses in BOB had much impact in the east. There the air war was lost in the battle of production and the drainage of Luftwaffe assets to protect Germany from the bomber assault that was to come. Frankly there was no way Stalin would have even considered an invasion until 1942 at the earliest.
Even then you have to wonder at the motivation of the Soviet soldier invading another country under Stalins orders, especially one like Germany with the best army in the world at the time. Even when invaded themselves it was German tyrrany as much as Stalins tyrrany that eventually turned them into a fierce armed force. Its a mystery why Stalin clung stubbornly to the idea that Hitler would not invade in '41 when every possible Intel source he had told him different. But as to the Soviets invading Germany? Not till '42 at the least and maybe not even then.
Rich, the Russian out number the Germans in the air, by June of 41. German had just 2,800 while Russians had 10,000. However, Stalin did not build up the western front and had all the units spread out in Russia. If he did push the units closer to the front before Germany invaded, Operation Barbarossa would have a different result They where disorganized before 42' when they start picking up and over run the LW.
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My grandfather could kick all your grandfathers' arses! He fought in ALL the wars! :rolleyes:
ARTHRITIC WARS!!!
5 bucks a seat....
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:aok They could have broken the back of the British, but at the 11th hour, Hitler instructed them to focus on attacking the cities which gave the British time to recover and ultimately stop them.
could? oh rly? why did Hitler do that? because British bombs were dropped on Berlin in return for a wayward bomber crew accidentally hitting London.
Hitler's ego couldn't stand it, allowing 11 Group's airfields to be patched up and ever increasing numbers of Spitfires and Hurricanes to shoot down the Luftwaffe's Bomber forces.
If the 109's had more fuel to mix it up then maybe things would have been different. Every German pilot shot down was lost for the rest of the war every bailed Allied pilot would be back in the air the next day (if unhurt)!
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My grandpa did also, he fought in the Zenkunen War fought from 1051 to 1063 in Japan of many wars.
sorry for the hijack
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could? oh rly?
Yeah, really! :neener:
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Oh wow, he even googled toothless jaw pressure. So you going around telling people they stupid in their faces? Christ, you must be tough in real life because you say so:)
silly silly boy i didnt google toothless jaw pressure hahahahaha i once again provided you with a place to start to research facts regarding a discussion you are involved in. you seem more interested in throwing out ridiculous and completely inaccurate statements without bothering to do any research. so once again you have proven my point, you have no real interest in being educated on the topic at hand.
im not particularly tough, dont need to be, but i am extremely sarcastic and i am never shy about screwing with someone.
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If Germany would've won the air war, they still needed to occupy the ground. A land bridge compared to the sea bridge. which seams more possible? Russia was just buying time, and it worked!
Rash
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Rich, the Russian out number the Germans in the air, by June of 41. German had just 2,800 while Russians had 10,000. However, Stalin did not build up the western front and had all the units spread out in Russia. If he did push the units closer to the front before Germany invaded, Operation Barbarossa would have a different result They where disorganized before 42' when they start picking up and over run the LW.
.....and the Soviets had Zilch air experience in comparison to the Veterans of the Luftwaffe. They were not Spread out on the Western Front. They always used the "Three Group Attack/Defense". The bigger problem again, was the simple fact that the Soviets had little experienced NCO ranks and Commisioned Officer Ranks, as most were executed. Also hindering any "progress" was a fear of pissing off the Putz himself, which lead to more errors in judgement for the first 10 days of Operation Barbarossa.
Two things stalled the Germans.
1.) The disorganized Supply Line. Milch flew out twice and corrected major flaws and they pushed both times. Then they were stuck on stupid a final time and it was the nail in the coffin. Germany had to now "go on the Defensive/Stall and march West".
2.) The gauge of Railroad tracks were narrower than most of Europe. This caused a major issue for a lot of the Supplies/Troop movements as the Soviet tracks were an older gauge than the Locomotives/Railway cars that the Germans possessed.
You said earlier that "the USSR had no plans to invade Germany":
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c62/Masherbrum/stalins_attack-plan.jpg)
There were in fact a number a "attack plans", such as the above. Once the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed, the days were numbered. But Stalin, was more concerned with "time to himself in his Office" for a decent amount of time at the start of Operation Barbarossa.
This was a great book and easy to read. http://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Folly-Tragic-First-Eastern/dp/0618773614 (http://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Folly-Tragic-First-Eastern/dp/0618773614) It is beyond informative and highlights Stalin's deficiencies and ineptness as a leader. I have the Advanced Reader Copy, as my oldest brother works for a Book Distributor and I get a bunch of WWII books almost monthly for free, these just are not the final draft and usually do not have the Maps, Pictures, typo's, etc.
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Soviet pilots did fight in the Spanish Civil War.
What is so wrong with the Lw city attacks. The US 8th AF did the same later in the war. The 8th's objective was to destroy the German fighter force, which they eventually did but it took time.
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Why didn't Hitler invade Switzerland? It would make things much easier.
Because they had impressive defenses, and mountain fighting no fun anyway?
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.....and the Soviets had Zilch air experience in comparison to the Veterans of the Luftwaffe. They were not Spread out on the Western Front. They always used the "Three Group Attack/Defense". The bigger problem again, was the simple fact that the Soviets had little experienced NCO ranks and Commisioned Officer Ranks, as most were executed. Also hindering any "progress" was a fear of pissing off the Putz himself, which lead to more errors in judgement for the first 10 days of Operation Barbarossa.
Two things stalled the Germans.
1.) The disorganized Supply Line. Milch flew out twice and corrected major flaws and they pushed both times. Then they were stuck on stupid a final time and it was the nail in the coffin. Germany had to now "go on the Defensive/Stall and march West".
2.) The gauge of Railroad tracks were narrower than most of Europe. This caused a major issue for a lot of the Supplies/Troop movements as the Soviet tracks were an older gauge than the Locomotives/Railway cars that the Germans possessed.
You said earlier that "the USSR had no plans to invade Germany":
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c62/Masherbrum/stalins_attack-plan.jpg)
There were in fact a number a "attack plans", such as the above. Once the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed, the days were numbered. But Stalin, was more concerned with "time to himself in his Office" for a decent amount of time at the start of Operation Barbarossa.
This was a great book and easy to read. http://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Folly-Tragic-First-Eastern/dp/0618773614 (http://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Folly-Tragic-First-Eastern/dp/0618773614) It is beyond informative and highlights Stalin's deficiencies and ineptness as a leader. I have the Advanced Reader Copy, as my oldest brother works for a Book Distributor and I get a bunch of WWII books almost monthly for free, these just are not the final draft and usually do not have the Maps, Pictures, typo's, etc.
Thanks for posting that map. When did they have planes to do this or was this just a plan as "just in case"? As for the Russian air forces, I would have to go back on that. I knew they out number Germany and not organized at all. Maybe my part of saying that they where spread out was after Germany invasion into Russia. You fail to mention of how many good pilots Germany lost in Battle of Britain or how many they lost from Poland to France, Norway, BoB, Yugoslavia, and Greece all together.
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Masher, - the BIG thing that stalled the Germans in Barbarossa was the southern advance. Another big thing was the way they acted with their "cauldron battles", - i.e. instead of spearheading to the goals, they would tend to encircle the red army divisions and annihilate them.
When Guderian found out about the southern advance, he tried to change the plan, but without results. His goal was to grab Moscow ASAP, form a strongpoint there, and THEN head for the south, where the winter arrives later.
Now, of the red airforce, - their strenght was always more then Germany's in numbers. Even after thousands of aircraft were destroyed on the ground in the opening days of Barbarossa. Well, - that is one of the points in the lecture, - stacking up aircraft and airfields within shooting range from a borderline is a completely offensive setup, NOT defensive.
But as a true strength in the air, LW dominated in the beginning, and would have done so much more had it not been blood-drained so vigourously by the RAF.
Later, at the turning point at Stalingrad, the same problem actually occured. Operation Torch took place in the same period. In the frantic chaos of both battles, valuable transports, and more were sent FROM the Russian theatre to the med, in order to assist in the evacuation at Tunisia. It was in vain, - the allies had a field day in the air, and captured more than 300.000 POW's.
I once compared loss records from the LW (in the microfilm archive of the IWM) from Stalingrad and N-Africa. The losses seemed to be higher in N-Africa to my surprize, - but back then, I actually was finding out for the first time how big those events actually were.
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Thanks for posting that map. When did they have planes to do this or was this just a plan as "just in case"? As for the Russian air forces, I would have to go back on that. I knew they out number Germany and not organized at all. Maybe my part of saying that they where spread out was after Germany invasion into Russia. You fail to mention of how many good pilots Germany lost in Battle of Britain or how many they lost from Poland to France, Norway, BoB, Yugoslavia, and Greece all together.
All I have been focusing on is the OP and it's title. Others are content to have this change into a BoB thread, as the last time this subject came up. If you read Milch's book and Stalin's Folly, you will have a crystal clear picture.
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LOL obviously the germans won the Battle of Britain :huh :lol
you seem to fit the description of
I know where he is going with this. It is the same thing as saying the US military "lost" in Vietnam (tries to keep the lid on the can of worms).
Be wary of linking the outcome of the battle as to why victory occurred. The scope of things, especially in terms of the BoB is a prime case of that.
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This, BTW, was not meant to become a BoB debate thread. The whole question is the odd evidence that the USSR built up their arsenal and made their plans and locations in a completely offensive set-up.
Why?
Complete co-incidense? Stupidity? Or a brewing plan?
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This, BTW, was not meant to become a BoB debate thread. The whole question is the odd evidence that the USSR built up their arsenal and made their plans and locations in a completely offensive set-up.
Why?
Complete co-incidense? Stupidity? Or a brewing plan?
The Soviets had plans to invade smaller nations on their borders first. Countries like Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Estonia, Romania, and and a few others were specifically named as "threats" to the Soviet government. I didnt get to read too deep on the issue but there is enough evidence to support that the Soviets were seriously planning to invade at least some of the bordering countries. Whether or not it meant that all of Europe was in that same plan it is hard to tell. I think it was but not until "phase 1" was done and over with and properly secured.
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I doubt if Stalin had plans to invade Germany.
He had the Japanese to worry about in Manchuria.
If he did, there would have been many more troops,
supplies and more equipment on the Russian's Western borders.
Saying that, Hitler's SS Panzer Divisions never would have overrun
the Russians in the manner they did.
:cheers: Oz
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"IF" the russians were planning an attack on germany, I wonder if the germans got wind of the planning and preempted the attack with their own. They would know the russians are not fully prepared as of yet.
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So why did Stalin stack his forces at the German-USSR border in mid-Poland in a complete offensive set-up?
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So why did Stalin stack his forces at the German-USSR border in mid-Poland in a complete offensive set-up?
To give the appearance of a "much larger Troop Force" than he had at the time.
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Don't mean to offend any guys from the UK but, had Germany kept up the attacks for another week or so, you would've had no choice but to give up. You won, however the real reasons as to why they didn't keep the onslaught going, we won't know.
And before one of you "smart" guys comes around to argue, here's a quote that'll keep you shut, "History is written by the victors."
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Don't mean to offend any guys from the UK but, had Germany kept up the attacks for another week or so, you would've had no choice but to give up. You won, however the real reasons as to why they didn't keep the onslaught going, we won't know.
And before one of you "smart" guys comes around to argue, here's a quote that'll keep you shut, "History is written by the victors."
UK wouldn't have "given up". I'm still wondering how those Wehrmacht would have made landfall. LOL. The Germans were hundreds of miles from the Suez Canal as well, but well, we all know what happened.
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wow this thread just derailed into the realms of fantasy!!!!
and thus again i find myself completely perplexed by those who would instead of reading undisputed events will choose to install their own delusional version of history without any support....except maybe the heavily propaganda saturated "truths" of the victors.
my mind is made up dont try to confuse me with the facts.....
excuse me, i do not find myself agreeing with supportable proof of events....so if nobody minds i will no just insert my own reality here....
i additionally love that nobody can be bothered to read documents that are posted for their education, but instead to ignore them and keep blubbering at the mouth in some insane and irrational manner just making up your facts as you go along.....
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Don't mean to offend any guys from the UK but, had Germany kept up the attacks for another week or so, you would've had no choice but to give up. You won, however the real reasons as to why they didn't keep the onslaught going, we won't know.
And before one of you "smart" guys comes around to argue, here's a quote that'll keep you shut, "History is written by the victors."
Even if they did, Germany had to face the Royal Navy. At the time, I believe Germany was a bit hurt in the Navy from the Norway operation.
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Warniing!
Opinion Follows, read at your own risk!
At the very least ..
..when you say 'the Russians' you refer to Stalin.
One man, one personal agenda, ego driven and very resistant to advisors,
..reluctant to change even when his ideas were blatantly proven wrong.
After the purges there weren't many who would tell him anything he did not want to hear.
From what I have learned over the years he probably chafed quite a bit feeling inferior to Hitler,
..watching Hitler just run amok over France probably had Stalin thinking he could do that, too.
I would bet he thought he could stomp the Germans hard once they got involved in Britain and just roll them up from the back.
Unfortunately for that plan, the British in the person of Winston Churchill,
(who actually did listen and act on advice from those who knew more than he did)
(most of the time :)
..did have an idea that they were in a fight for survival
..managing to capitalize on Hitler's mistakes along with enlisting the aid of everyone they could.
With Germany .. anytime someone says 'the Germans' they refer to Hitler ..
..altho his Commanders had a bit more leeway early on,
..it was still one man's agenda, ego, and personality.
He screwed up by the numbers so badly so many times there are times I truly wonder if he wasn't working for the allies.
He sure wasn't trying to 'win' his war in a logical, proficient, military manner.
Just my 2 copper.
-Frank aka GE
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The answer really lies in the size of the transformation of both the Soviet military and Soviet society that was needed to stop the Germans and then go on as an offensive force. So much happened, so much changed in Soviet society out of sheer desperation just to survive that you really have to think hard if the Soviet Army would have been able to become what it did without being put in such a desperate situation and would the Party have allowed it.
I say no. And I say Stalin , like most tyrants, was far more worried about threats within his borders then without and would have stayed that way had not the Germans invaded and threatened to put his head on a spike. It was fear and hatred of Germany that was the driving force to what became the fearsome Soviet Army that raged westward in '44 and '45. Without the first there never would have been the second.
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Aye Rich . . Stalin needed a hook ..something the average russian could identify with and fight for.
Early on the russian average joe thought it would be better to live under Hitler's rule than Stalins.
Himmler's SS put a screeching stop to that idea with their mass murder policy.
If Stalin had not developed an idea worth fighting for ..
.. 'Mother Russia' ..
.. so many other if's .. it was still very touch n go for a long time.
More than a few thought the war was lost on the allied side even as far up as 1943.
I beleive if Hitler had gone ahead with Sea Lion and got hooked into an invasion of Britain,
Stalin would have attempted to roll him from the back.
-GE aka Frank
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A lot of speculations. And yet none came up with an educated guess why the USSR set-up in mid Poland, facing the Germans, was all stacked up in an offense mode in the summer of 1941. Not just that, - the job was not finished.
Since the BoB has been mentioned much, a lesson can be used from it. Even geographically protected front airfields are vulnerable to attack. There you are talking about a minimum of 30 miles, and once the distance was some 100 miles, the responce time was acceptable. But the USSR put their fields up close to 0.5 to 1.5 miles away from the borders.
Their artillery was more trimmed for offence. Their tanks were more trimmed for offence. And the locations of deployment were absolutely trimmed for offence.
So, - were they thinking....or just being silly?
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A lot of speculations. And yet none came up with an educated guess why the USSR set-up in mid Poland, facing the Germans, was all stacked up in an offense mode in the summer of 1941. Not just that, - the job was not finished.
Since the BoB has been mentioned much, a lesson can be used from it. Even geographically protected front airfields are vulnerable to attack. There you are talking about a minimum of 30 miles, and once the distance was some 100 miles, the responce time was acceptable. But the USSR put their fields up close to 0.5 to 1.5 miles away from the borders.
Their artillery was more trimmed for offence. Their tanks were more trimmed for offence. And the locations of deployment were absolutely trimmed for offence.
So, - were they thinking....or just being silly?
No speculation. The USSR were only concerned with protecting their own "prior-pact" borders. The "annexed territory" was merely a "no man's land"/buffer zone for them. But treating it as such caused them chaos than they realized afterwards. The Germans had the Eastern Front scouted and reconnoitered daily, so the Germans were well aware of the rag tag "defenses" the USSR had in place.
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I know the thread isn't about the BoB, but a book anyone interested in it should read is "The Battle of Britain" by Richard Overy, a Professor in History at the University of Exeter. I can lend it via email to anyone that requests it, it's fairly short, but gives some well researched information.
Example, on Sept 1, the Germans only had 533 serviceable fighters available. On Oct 1, this number had dropped to 275. Near the end of the battle, England had a slight edge in numbers even. Overy dispels a lot of the notions that it was "just a few" versus many during the battle, while not taking anything away from the RAF. This book changed a lot of the opinions and ideas I had held as sacrosanct regarding the BoB.
Also, some quick numbers regarding Barbarossa:
German Line of Battle:
830 Single Engine Ftrs
90 Twin Engine Ftrs
310 Stukas
775 Long Range Bombers
710 ish recon A/C
First day casualties for the VVS : 1811 aircraft lost, all but 322 on the ground. Luftwaffe casualties 32 planes.
The nest four days score for the L/w : 800, 577, 351, 300 respectively.
By October 5th, over 5,000 VVS aircraft destroyed. FIVE THOUSAND.
edit: After just reading Karaya's post regarding recon, I think that THIS particular point is extremely important. Look at the numbers of recon a/c the Luftwaffe had deployed, nearly as many as they had fighters or bombers. This is a critical point, and like any type of combat, information derived from solid reconnaissance proved to be the deciding factor, at least in my opinion. The first attacks of the operation were by three crack L/W bomber units, one of He11, one of JU88 and one of DO's. They had long lines of VVS aircraft parked to target, the cream of the Russian Airforce, and these 40 or so bombers killed hundreds of aircraft on the ground at critical defense points in the opening minutes of Barbarossa. Their success just mushroomed with other units that came after them.
I think that the effects of the purges cannot be overstated after seeing these numbers, which come from Walter J. Boyne's book "Clash of Wings", another excellent book that encompasses the entire air war of WW2.
Scary numbers to consider. If Russia was planning an invasion, it sure got caught flatfooted on the defensive end of things with the VVS, considering the whooping they took from the incredibly outnumbered L/W in 1941 and early 1942.
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Gman!
Highly interesting, and my email is :
reddari1@simnet.is
I probably have quite some data for you and will send if you like ;)
And Masher....I still don't get it. Plonking down a whole airforce so close to a "prior-pact border" makes no sense at all.
As for the scouting, the Germans were baffled by the stacks of Soviet stock they could torch in a matter of hours. Some sources say the Germans destroyed some 3000 Soviet aircraft on the ground in the first week,- it is not a much debated number, and is more than the total strength of the LW applied at the time!
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Gman!
Highly interesting, and my email is :
reddari1@simnet.is
I probably have quite some data for you and will send if you like ;)
And Masher....I still don't get it. Plonking down a whole airforce so close to a "prior-pact border" makes no sense at all.
As for the scouting, the Germans were baffled by the stacks of Soviet stock they could torch in a matter of hours. Some sources say the Germans destroyed some 3000 Soviet aircraft on the ground in the first week,- it is not a much debated number, and is more than the total strength of the LW applied at the time!
You missed my point, in an earlier post. Stalin was about as "strategically intelligent" as Hitler. You do realize I have said that the first 10 days, which were the most crucial were ignored by Stalin. I have never disputing a thing in thread, I have been one of the few who haven't turned this into a BoB thread. I posted the Map of the USSR May 1941 attack plans, after someone said no such thing existed.
Poland cost the USSR only a signature from Molotov. I fail to understand why they would "fight to the hilt" for Poland? The USSR had rid itself of the most intelligent Generals, who Stalin felt most threatened by. Just because you're a Dictator doesn't mean you're smart. I honestly feel that if the Purges never happened, the tune might have been different. But it wasn't, so it is a moot point.
EDIT: Also of note, let's not forget the "Tito/Balkan's Campaign" delaying the start of Operation Barbarossa by almost six weeks, for the Germans. Just imagine if they would have had six more weeks of better weather..............
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I beg to differ Masher, but thank you for your inputs.
As far as I have dug up, the Germans were not particularly delayed because of the Balkans. The offense started (of course) much further north, and just about when the ground allowed. It was a slow spring 1941.
As Hitler, - I'd have gone sooner. And preferably had some naval opportunity into the black sea. But it was not so.
And about the first 10 days, and Stalin's fit of depression, - it has been said that it was because Hitler managed to beat him in the "who's first" game...
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I beg to differ Masher, but thank you for your inputs.
As far as I have dug up, the Germans were not particularly delayed because of the Balkans. The offense started (of course) much further north, and just about when the ground allowed. It was a slow spring 1941.
As Hitler, - I'd have gone sooner. And preferably had some naval opportunity into the black sea. But it was not so.
And about the first 10 days, and Stalin's fit of depression, - it has been said that it was because Hitler managed to beat him in the "who's first" game...
Wrong. Stalin cost Millions of Soldiers, their lives, because he chose to hide, rather than stand up. Stalin and Hitler were both cut from the same cloth and were no different than those prior/after.
The Germans were most definitely delayed because of the Balkans campaign.
"Wenn ich nicht bekommen, das Öl von Maikop und Grosny dann muss ich fertig dieser Krieg." - Adolf Hitler's own words. "If I do not get the oil of Maikop and Grozny then I must finish this war." They were to the East of Stalingrad.
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No doubt about it. Probably the reason why Adolf abandoned England invasion.
He never formally declared war on england.
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I fail to see the logic in attacking Germany via USSR's standpoint, first Stalin shot all his generals - and secondly 60% of the equipment was no where near the front line.
There were plans for the French to invade Germany - and while Germany was attacking Poland the entire Western flank of Germany through Ruhr was wide open - France couldn't mobilize let alone in force in the time frame they wanted.
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isn't the Slaughter of the Russian and Eastern air forces how the German "Aces" managed to rack up such good scores?
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isn't the Slaughter of the Russian and Eastern air forces how the German "Aces" managed to rack up such good scores?
Yep, Russia had extremely poor pilots - and no communication let alone flight tactics - same as France and Britain, Germany used what it learned in Spain then applied it - even into the Battle of France did the tactics not fully develope.
For example, British VIC formation vs German Rotte.
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There was one BBC documentary that came out a few years ago called "Behind closed Doors: Stalin, the Nazis, and the west" that focused on the political ongoings during that time period which I found interesting. If you've ever wondered why there was a 'cold war' after WWII this documentary certainly explains why.
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I fail to see the logic in attacking Germany via USSR's standpoint, first Stalin shot all his generals - and secondly 60% of the equipment was no where near the front line.
There were plans for the French to invade Germany - and while Germany was attacking Poland the entire Western flank of Germany through Ruhr was wide open - France couldn't mobilize let alone in force in the time frame they wanted.
Agh, the French did attack Germany in 1939.
Operation 'Saar', the plans for which were contained in a French Army Instruction of July 24, 1939. It was directed by General Gaston Prételat, commander of the French 2nd Army Group. The attack went in on September 7, and was a complete fiasco.
Everything was against the French. For a start, the sector of the frontier between the Rhine and the Moselle selected for the French attack had been defined by the victors of Waterloo in 1815 with the express purpose of making French aggression difficult. Thus in 1939 the Germans held all the high ground. German-held salients also extended into French territory, and these would have to be reduced before the Siegfried Line was sufficiently far behind the German front line to compel the French to bring their own artillery (if it was to be within range of the casemates of the Line) within range of German counter-battery fire.
After patrolling operations, Prételat launched his attack on September 7, but it hardly got past its start-lines. A total of 31 divisions had been put at Prételat's disposal, including 14 first-line units, but only nine were used eventually. General Edouard Réquin's 4th Army, with its right flank in the squeake region and its left on the Saar, managed to capture seven and a half miles of German territory, while its neighbour, General Condé's 3rd Army, pinched out the heavily-wooded Warndt Forest salient.
Commanding the German 1st Army General Erwin von Witzleben had 17 division to meet this attack, and ten of these had been recruited only recently. But his troops made skilful use of their advantage in terrain, relying heavily on cleverly-sited anti-tank and anti-personnel minefields. The French were unfamiliar with this threat and possessed no mine detectors. Houses booby-trapped with explosives added to the German minefield defences.
What of the Siegfried line itself, which the French had planned to attack after September 17. General Siegfried Westphal has gone on record as describing the Line as a 'gigantic bluff', but it was not. Its defences were sound, and the French artillery could do little damage to them. Major-General Ulrich Liss, head of 'Section West' of Germany Army Intelligence, stated that the French 155-mm shells caused negligible damage. The heavier 220-mm and 280-mm guns were not provided with delayed-action fused shells, which would have enabled the projectiles to penetrate the casemates before exploding. Liss admitted that the French guns maintained a high and accurate rate of fire, but stated that a large number of the French shells failed to explode as they came from stocks dating back to WWI.
Source: Illustrated World War II Encyclopedia.