Did the Russians plan to invade Germany in 1941/1942

[Masherbrum]

Thanks for posting that map.  When did they have planes to do this or was this just a plan as "just in case"?  As for the Russian air forces, I would have to go back on that.  I knew they out number Germany and not organized at all.  Maybe my part of saying that they where spread out was after Germany invasion into Russia.  You fail to mention of how many good pilots Germany lost in Battle of Britain or how many they lost from Poland to France, Norway, BoB, Yugoslavia, and Greece all together.

All I have been focusing on is the OP and it's title.   Others are content to have this change into a BoB thread, as the last time this subject came up.   If you read Milch's book and Stalin's Folly, you will have a crystal clear picture.

[SmokinLoon]

LOL obviously the germans won the Battle of Britain   

you seem to fit the description of

I know where he is going with this.  It is the same thing as saying the US military "lost" in Vietnam (tries to keep the lid on the can of worms).

Be wary of linking the outcome of the battle as to why victory occurred.  The scope of things, especially in terms of the BoB is a prime case of that.

[Angus]

This, BTW, was not meant to become a BoB debate thread. The whole question is the odd evidence that the USSR built up their arsenal and made their plans and locations in a completely offensive set-up.
Why?
Complete co-incidense? Stupidity? Or a brewing plan?

[SmokinLoon]

This, BTW, was not meant to become a BoB debate thread. The whole question is the odd evidence that the USSR built up their arsenal and made their plans and locations in a completely offensive set-up.
Why?
Complete co-incidense? Stupidity? Or a brewing plan?

The Soviets had plans to invade smaller nations on their borders first.  Countries like Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Estonia, Romania, and and a few others were specifically named as "threats" to the Soviet government.  I didnt get to read too deep on the issue but there is enough evidence to support that the Soviets were seriously planning to invade at least some of the bordering countries.  Whether or not it meant that all of Europe was in that same plan it is hard to tell.  I think it was but not until "phase 1" was done and over with and properly secured. 

[ozrocker]

I doubt if Stalin had plans to invade Germany.
He had the Japanese to worry about in Manchuria.
If he did, there would have been many more troops,
supplies and more equipment on the Russian's Western borders.
Saying that, Hitler's SS Panzer Divisions never would have overrun
the Russians in the manner they did.
                                                                                                                                        Oz                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

[Shuffler]

"IF" the russians were planning an attack on germany, I wonder if the germans got wind of the planning and preempted the attack with their own. They would know the russians are not fully prepared as of yet.

[Angus]

So why did Stalin stack his forces at the German-USSR border in mid-Poland in a complete offensive set-up?

[Masherbrum]

So why did Stalin stack his forces at the German-USSR border in mid-Poland in a complete offensive set-up?

To give the appearance of a "much larger Troop Force" than he had at the time.

[FYB]

Don't mean to offend any guys from the UK but, had Germany kept up the attacks for another week or so, you would've had no choice but to give up. You won, however the real reasons as to why they didn't keep the onslaught going, we won't know.

And before one of you "smart" guys comes around to argue, here's a quote that'll keep you shut, "History is written by the victors."

[Masherbrum]

Don't mean to offend any guys from the UK but, had Germany kept up the attacks for another week or so, you would've had no choice but to give up. You won, however the real reasons as to why they didn't keep the onslaught going, we won't know.

And before one of you "smart" guys comes around to argue, here's a quote that'll keep you shut, "History is written by the victors."

UK wouldn't have "given up".   I'm still wondering how those Wehrmacht would have made landfall.    LOL.    The Germans were hundreds of miles from the Suez Canal as well, but well, we all know what happened.

[FLOTSOM]

wow this thread just derailed into the realms of fantasy!!!!

and thus again i find myself completely perplexed by those who would instead of reading undisputed events will choose to install their own delusional version of history without any support....except maybe the heavily propaganda saturated "truths" of the victors.

my mind is made up dont try to confuse me with the facts.....

excuse me, i do not find myself agreeing with supportable proof of events....so if nobody minds i will no just insert my own reality here....

i additionally love that nobody can be bothered to read documents that are posted for their education, but instead to ignore them and keep blubbering at the mouth in some insane and irrational manner just making up your facts as you go along.....

[oakranger]

Don't mean to offend any guys from the UK but, had Germany kept up the attacks for another week or so, you would've had no choice but to give up. You won, however the real reasons as to why they didn't keep the onslaught going, we won't know.

And before one of you "smart" guys comes around to argue, here's a quote that'll keep you shut, "History is written by the victors."

Even if they did, Germany had to face the Royal Navy.  At the time, I believe Germany was a bit hurt in the Navy from the Norway operation.

[Grayeagle]

Warniing!
Opinion Follows, read at your own risk!

At the very least ..
..when you say 'the Russians' you refer to Stalin.
One man, one personal agenda, ego driven and very resistant to advisors,
..reluctant to change even when his ideas were blatantly proven wrong.
After the purges there weren't many who would tell him anything he did not want to hear.

From what I have learned over the years he probably chafed quite a bit feeling inferior to Hitler,
..watching Hitler just run amok over France probably had Stalin thinking he could do that, too.
I would bet he thought he could stomp the Germans hard once they got involved in Britain and just roll them up from the back.

Unfortunately for that plan, the British in the person of Winston Churchill,
(who actually did listen and act on advice from those who knew more than he did)
(most of the time
..did have an idea that they were in a fight for survival
..managing to capitalize on Hitler's mistakes along with enlisting the aid of everyone they could.

With Germany .. anytime someone says 'the Germans' they refer to Hitler ..
..altho his Commanders had a bit more leeway early on,
..it was still one man's agenda, ego, and personality.
He screwed up by the numbers so badly so many times there are times I truly wonder if he wasn't working for the allies.
He sure wasn't trying to 'win' his war in a logical, proficient, military manner.

Just my 2 copper.

-Frank aka GE

[Rich52]

The answer really lies in the size of the transformation of both the Soviet military and Soviet society that was needed to stop the Germans and then go on as an offensive force. So much happened, so much changed in Soviet society out of sheer desperation just to survive that you really have to think hard if the Soviet Army would have been able to become what it did without being put in such a desperate situation and would the Party have allowed it.

I say no. And I say Stalin , like most tyrants, was far more worried about threats within his borders then without and would have stayed that way had not the Germans invaded and threatened to put his head on a spike. It was fear and hatred of Germany that was the driving force to what became the fearsome Soviet Army that raged westward in '44 and '45. Without the first there never would have been the second.

[Grayeagle]

Aye Rich . . Stalin needed a hook ..something the average russian could identify with and fight for.
Early on the russian average joe thought it would be better to live under Hitler's rule than Stalins.
Himmler's SS put a screeching stop to that idea with their mass murder policy.

If Stalin had not developed an idea worth fighting for ..
.. 'Mother Russia' ..
.. so many other if's .. it was still very touch n go for a long time.

More than a few thought the war was lost on the allied side even as far up as 1943.
I beleive if Hitler had gone ahead with Sea Lion and got hooked into an invasion of Britain,
Stalin would have attempted to roll him from the back.

-GE aka Frank