Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: cattb on April 04, 2012, 05:00:57 PM
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Wife and I are putting our niece through college.
She will be attending 4 years for IT networking. Question is, we will be buying her a computer. I am sure she will be using virtualization.
I am interested in opinion for either a cheaper Intel dual core or a AMD Phenom or possibly a cheaper FX or a AMD APU quad. I am not sure of all the virtualization she could run into.
I see the AMD APU supports virtualization, I am starting to lean this way.
As long a the cpu supports virtualization this is good enough?
I am on a budget and this computer is used for eduacation and development, not gaming.
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Wife and I are putting our niece through college.
She will be attending 4 years for IT networking. Question is, we will be buying her a computer. I am sure she will be using virtualization.
I am interested in opinion for either a cheaper Intel dual core or a AMD Phenom or possibly a cheaper FX or a AMD APU quad. I am not sure of all the virtualization she could run into.
I see the AMD APU supports virtualization, I am starting to lean this way.
As long a the cpu supports virtualization this is good enough?
I am on a budget and this computer is used for eduacation and development, not gaming.
Any old computer will do for learning purposes as long as it has enough ram to run the virtual machine(s). It doesn't matter if it supports Intel or AMD virtualization - the virtual machines will just run a tad bit slower without them and that doesn't matter since she's not using her school machine for production.
Oh, and if you want a problem free education machine for her, get her a mac with a virtualized windows. She'll thank you for it later.
Macs are easy to use, they have very few malwares and viruses and are based on unix - she will have several advantages like being able to ssh directly to her virtual machines or other machines without 3rd party tools in between.
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Macs are easy to use
That is a very, very subjective statement. I had the recent displeasure of trying to tie my Wife's Macbook Pro into our LAN and that was a freaking nightmare. Trying to find documentation was a pain the butt. Took several hours to find the information in order to find out how to get the damn thing on the network.
I was ready to toss it out the 5th floor window.
And what is with the BS of requiring a login ID and password in order to do updates for the OS? She also manage to put a CD of some application in the machine and it is still there. I have not found a way to get it out yet. Although I am leaning really hard towards using a crowbar.
For all of you who have not had the displeasure of using a Macbook Pro, THERE IS NO EJECT button for the CD/DV player! How intuitive is that!?!?!
Sorry, but after having to deal with that piece of junk, and all the stupid Windows apps they screw up (iTunes, Quicktime...), I am pretty damn frustrated with anything related to Apple. Phrases like "so intuitive,..easy to use" are absolute hog wash.
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That is a very, very subjective statement. I had the recent displeasure of trying to tie my Wife's Macbook Pro into our LAN and that was a freaking nightmare. Trying to find documentation was a pain the butt. Took several hours to find the information in order to find out how to get the damn thing on the network.
I was ready to toss it out the 5th floor window.
And what is with the BS of requiring a login ID and password in order to do updates for the OS? She also manage to put a CD of some application in the machine and it is still there. I have not found a way to get it out yet. Although I am leaning really hard towards using a crowbar.
For all of you who have not had the displeasure of using a Macbook Pro, THERE IS NO EJECT button for the CD/DV player! How intuitive is that!?!?!
Sorry, but after having to deal with that piece of junk, and all the stupid Windows apps they screw up (iTunes, Quicktime...), I am pretty damn frustrated with anything related to Apple. Phrases like "so intuitive,..easy to use" are absolute hog wash.
LOL! OSX has a very simple networking section in the settings. What was your problem there? It contains all the standard functions. Just choose 'ethernet' then go to advanced functions and you have all your basic configuration options starting from DHCP to manual DNS/IP settings.
(http://osxdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/lion-wifi-dropping-fixes.jpg)
Macbooks and iMacs have had an eject button for several years, how old is your Mac? It's on the top right corner of the keyboard.
(http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/MacAppleTech/2011-02-07_042308_picture_5.png)
The biggest problem with using mac is that people try to use them like windows. Obviously that is doing it wrong :)
I cursed OSX at the beginning, too. I was used to windows. Now I get shivers at the thought of having to use windows as a main machine. Yikes!
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depends if you are rich or not, a windows machine will get the job done for half the price.
We deploy Lenovo laptops at work...expensive but reliable and powerful.
On the CPU front, if it's strictly work a cheap AMD Fusion laptop will suffice, So will a Core i3. The core i3 is usually more expensive, but more powerful.
One good advice is to define your need, and budget. Screen size wanted? Is battery life important? Is the weight important?
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depends if you are rich or not, a windows machine will get the job done for half the price.
We deploy Lenovo laptops at work...expensive but reliable and powerful.
Sure it will do the job. But a Mac will save her a ton of trouble. If (read: when) she manages to get her windows corrupted or malware laced, it's a few seconds restore from a virtual image and back to running. Practically no worry about viruses, built in unix style shell... A Mac is perfect for anyone who has to deal with unix or linux machines remotely. It has the basic functions of unix, yet no hassle of a native linux desktop.
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LOL! OSX has a very simple networking section in the settings. What was your problem there? It contains all the standard functions. Just choose 'ethernet' then go to advanced functions and you have all your basic configuration options starting from DHCP to manual DNS/IP settings.
(http://osxdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/lion-wifi-dropping-fixes.jpg)
Macbooks and iMacs have had an eject button for several years, how old is your Mac? It's on the top right corner of the keyboard.
(http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/MacAppleTech/2011-02-07_042308_picture_5.png)
The biggest problem with using mac is that people try to use them like windows. Obviously that is doing it wrong :)
I cursed OSX at the beginning, too. I was used to windows. Now I get shivers at the thought of having to use windows as a main machine. Yikes!
That is all well and good. Now show me how you found that information? That is what was so frustrating. I am used to dealing with software I have never used before. I do not mind digging through documents or reading help pages.
One answer I got was, "If you cannot configure the network, you are a moron and should not be allowed to use a computer.". This was in asking where the network configuration panel was.
Much like your arrogant response actually. I just chalk that up to the Apple culture.
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Sure it will do the job. But a Mac will save her a ton of trouble. If (read: when) she manages to get her windows corrupted or malware laced, it's a few seconds restore from a virtual image and back to running. Practically no worry about viruses, built in unix style shell... A Mac is perfect for anyone who has to deal with unix or linux machines remotely. It has the basic functions of unix, yet no hassle of a native linux desktop.
Windows can restore an OS image in a few clicks too. If she studies networks she will probably use putty as a shell to program routers and stuff, the shell of the local machine does not impact anything.
Also if you have issues with a windows machine you don't have to pay crazy money an incompetent Mac "Genious" to fix your stupid software, or pay overpriced pieces of outdated hardware. Windows has issues but Microsoft doesn't try to hide them while calling you an idiot, while Apple.....:noid
This will be my last Apple vs PC post, as it is a waste of time.
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That is all well and good. Now show me how you found that information? That is what was so frustrating. I am used to dealing with software I have never used before. I do not mind digging through documents or reading help pages.
Did you try using the knowledge base at apple.com? There's a huge amount of data available there starting from downloadable PDF user manuals, DIY hardware service instructions and user knowledge base.
I found the eject button image simply by searching "MBP eject button" on Google. I know your frustration, I almost threw my mac out of the window on my first day too, trying to find the eject button from the side of the machine where it sits on windows laptops.
One answer I got was, "If you cannot configure the network, you are a moron and should not be allowed to use a computer.". This was in asking where the network configuration panel was.
Much like your arrogant response actually. I just chalk that up to the Apple culture.
I didn't call you a moron, I laughed with your frustrations having lived through them myself. It felt hard just because it's different - but once you found the settings tab and browsed through them you figure out it's so much clearer and simplier than windows.
Sorry if you felt offended, all I did was try to help.
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Windows can restore an OS image in a few clicks too.
Oh puhleeze :D if your host OS is porked it's not even close to a few clicks! You'll need to boot to a rescue partition or DVD and revert to an image that will wipe everything you did on the computer so far! Within parallels I can revert to an OS snapshot with 3 mouse clicks and the process takes a few seconds. All my data and applications are safe on the OSX side. Show me _any_ windows image restore that is as fast and easy as that.
If she studies networks she will probably use putty as a shell to program routers and stuff, the shell of the local machine does not impact anything.
Except you have to use a clumsy program to do a simple task that you could do in your own terminal. I was referring to PuTTy when I mentioned 3rd party programs. OSX has native ssh, sftp, scp, vnc etc.
Also if you have issues with a windows machine you don't have to pay crazy money an incompetent Mac "Genious" to fix your stupid software, or pay overpriced pieces of outdated hardware. Windows has issues but Microsoft doesn't try to hide them while calling you an idiot, while Apple.....:noid
This will be my last Apple vs PC post, as it is a waste of time.
Nothing stops you from doing your own repair on a mac any more than any laptop. In fact even on Apple.com there are tutorials on how to service your own products. Certain things can be changed and some not. When our company stoped using windows machines our machine downtime reduced from regular windows / hardware trouble to 1 hardware problem per 1 years average. The Macs more than paid themselves back in saved work hours.
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Riply, my quote about being called a moron was from the Apple site where I was trying to get help. It was not a reference to you. It was a commentary on the general attitude I run into when asking for help on Apple products.
Did you try using the knowledge base at apple.com? There's a huge amount of data available there starting from downloadable PDF user manuals, DIY hardware service instructions and user knowledge base.
Yes, I did try to find that data (good thing I had another computer avilable to use), but all the information I could find kept referring to a later version of the OS and all stated we needed to update the OS if it did not match the documentation. Which is another problem.
Oh puhleeze :D if your host OS is porked it's not even close to a few clicks! You'll need to boot to a rescue partition or DVD and revert to an image that will wipe everything you did on the computer so far! Within parallels I can revert to an OS snapshot with 3 mouse clicks and the process takes a few seconds. All my data and applications are safe on the OSX side. Show me _any_ windows image restore that is as fast and easy as that.
Actually, since Windows XP SP3, or so, you can do an update/install of the OS and it will not lose any application installations or drivers. The only time it will wipe the installs out is if the registry is corrupted. If you can edit the registry, then a re-install of the OS does not have to wipe the applications installed. On a decent computer it takes about 15 to 20 minutes to do.
Want to tell me how to update the Apple OS when I do not have a login or password to the Apple site? Or how to find out what that login and password it is looking for? So far, her computer has been down for a week as it barely can boot. Cannot run any applications at all without locking up.
I am no fan of Microsoft, but they are looking better and better every day that passes by with a dead $2,500.00 computer.
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Riply, my quote about being called a moron was from the Apple site where I was trying to get help. It was not a reference to you.
Yep but you did call me arrogant and placed me to the 'Apple culture'. Mind you I was a Mac hater untill 4 years back. I thought iPhone sucked untill I used it. Same thing was for OSX.
At first I went crazy trying to figure out simple things because I was thinking like a windows user. A windows user does not think that installing a program happens just by pulling the program image to the 'programs' folder. Just the same with the eject button.
You critisized about the mac.com/me.com account need - but after you create the account everything is so simple. If you've ever tried to take a Nokia smartphone into use and compare it to having a mac and an iphone, you know Nokia + windows is stone age. The same with Android. With the iPhone stuff just starts happening automagically when you connect it up the first time. No need to read a manual, no need to do clumsy user registration to odd websites over and over.. you get free cloud space to sync your devices, ability to track your devices etc.
I work with computers all day every day. I like the simplicity because I don't want to think about using the computer at all. I want to concentrate on my work which is either having a presentation in a conference or plugging remotely to a linux server. Mac tools like Keynote and Omnigraffle create extremely high quality presentations and cost next to nothing. If you put MS Visio slides next to Omnigraffle, they look like 70's show compared to Star Trek :)
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I cannot create an account. The thing keeps popping up and asking for a login ID and password without any other information as to what to do when you do not know what the login or password is. There is no option to create an account. Even if there were, if it wants to use a browser, she is hosed. The browser will not work on her computer.
I am not a Windows person. I am a UNIX person who happens to know how Windows works. I do not like the iPhone either, but to be far, I do not care for any 'smart' phone. They are all a pain in the butt to use.
There is nothing simple about Windows or Apple computers. They all require too much effort to do the simplest tasks.
Of course, her computer is pretty easy right now. It barely boots and that is about all you can do with it.
The problem with Microsoft and Apple is they want to hide everything from you thinking that will make it easier to use the products. For some, it works, for others it is a nightmare. For all it is a nightmare when things go wrong.
I have been administering computers for over 25 years and one thing I learned is the more you try to hide something, the harder it is to maintain it.
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Actually, since Windows XP SP3, or so, you can do an update/install of the OS and it will not lose any application installations or drivers. The only time it will wipe the installs out is if the registry is corrupted. If you can edit the registry, then a re-install of the OS does not have to wipe the applications installed. On a decent computer it takes about 15 to 20 minutes to do.
You can install again yes, but it takes a lot of time and at all times you risk porking applications that unfortunately replace system dlls with their own. The install also takes a lot of time. If you even suspect a malware got into the machine you need to nuke it from orbit and do a full reimage. On Parallels that's literally 3 clicks and a few seconds away - with no need to install apps and data back from backup since they never were on windows to start with.
Want to tell me how to update the Apple OS when I do not have a login or password to the Apple site? Or how to find out what that login and password it is looking for? So far, her computer has been down for a week as it barely can boot. Cannot run any applications at all without locking up.
Sounds pretty bad. I'd take it to the mac service if it has warranty left because that sounds like hardware trouble to me. If you suspect the harddrive is bad you can boot your mbp up from a usb harddrive temporarily to see if that stabilizes the box. You can actually boot the mbp so that you can use the dvd to install a fresh OS to the USB hdd and use the mbp through it. Great way to figure out if the internal hdd is bad. Changing the hdd is a 20 minute task, special torx screw driver is needed so be prepared for a visit at the tool store!
If your wife forgot her apple.com login try this site: https://iforgot.apple.com if you can't remember your password or id, as long as you remember your e-mail account you used to create it you're fine.
I am no fan of Microsoft, but they are looking better and better every day that passes by with a dead $2,500.00 computer.
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You can install again yes, but it takes a lot of time and at all times you risk porking applications that unfortunately replace system dlls with their own. The install also takes a lot of time. If you even suspect a malware got into the machine you need to nuke it from orbit and do a full reimage. On Parallels that's literally 3 clicks and a few seconds away - with no need to install apps and data back from backup since they never were on windows to start with.
Sounds pretty bad. I'd take it to the mac service if it has warranty left because that sounds like hardware trouble to me. If you suspect the harddrive is bad you can boot your mbp up from a usb harddrive temporarily to see if that stabilizes the box. You can actually boot the mbp so that you can use the dvd to install a fresh OS to the USB hdd and use the mbp through it. Great way to figure out if the internal hdd is bad. Changing the hdd is a 20 minute task, special torx screw driver is needed so be prepared for a visit at the tool store!
If your wife forgot her apple.com login try this site: https://iforgot.apple.com if you can't remember your password or id, as long as you remember your e-mail account you used to create it you're fine.
I am no fan of Microsoft, but they are looking better and better every day that passes by with a dead $2,500.00 computer.
Her hardware is fine. I know exactly what went wrong. She did something Apple did not expect someone to do and it borked the machine. If we can every figure out how to get it to update the OS, she will be back in business.
Yeah, you say it takes 3 clicks and a few seconds? Uh, huh, then why is it her computer has been dead for almost a week now? It it was Windows, I would have wiped the drive and re-installed the OS and had her running in an hour, or so.
No one at Apple has been any help, at all. And see, that is where the biggest issue lies with Apple products. They are fine, until they are not fine, then you are pretty much screwed unless you pay Apple a ton of money for support. If that perception is incorrect, then Apple needs to work on it.
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and you have to pay for OS security upgrades (I know I shouldn't post about apple, but it drives me crazy)
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I cannot begin to imagine what she could do to cause this. If you want to update the OS, slap in the OSX install disc and reinstall OSX - it will update automatically after that.
Actually I just thought of something:
I once porked my OSX installation totally by following windows logic - I checked file permissions on my drive after updating the hdd and saw I wasn't the owner on many things. If you take ownership to the files and override the original rights you'll hose the whole OSX good. If you did that then it's reinstall time.
Yeah, you say it takes 3 clicks and a few seconds? Uh, huh, then why is it her computer has been dead for almost a week now? It it was Windows, I would have wiped the drive and re-installed the OS and had her running in an hour, or so.
I was talking about windows in a virtual host there Roy. You can have her OSX sparkly shiney by inserting the OSX install DVD and restarting the computer holding c key at startup. Optionally you can hold the option key at startup at which time you can choose to boot from a recovery partition (necessary on some newer macs). If she has OSX Lion, then http://www.apple.com/macosx/recovery/ helps
No one at Apple has been any help, at all. And see, that is where the biggest issue lies with Apple products. They are fine, until they are not fine, then you are pretty much screwed unless you pay Apple a ton of money for support. If that perception is incorrect, then Apple needs to work on it.
I would just try to reinstall the OSX first. You'll be prompted to either create an account or sign in after the basic setup. The iforgot site will guide you through if she already did one.
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and you have to pay for OS security upgrades (I know I shouldn't post about apple, but it drives me crazy)
Really? I receive updates for free monthly and new OS versions are 29 bucks versus 129 bucks for windows.
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let me say this. apple is like a mini cooper. windows is like a corvett. linux is like a truck, it dose what you want it too do.
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let me say this. apple is like a mini cooper. windows is like a corvett. linux is like a truck, it dose what you want it too do.
MMmmmkay :rolleyes:
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let me say this. apple is like a mini cooper. windows is like a corvett. linux is like a truck, it dose what you want it too do.
I'd say Windoze is the truck - overloaded and slow but does it's job. Linux is a similar truck but with headroom for speed upgrades and tuning.
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Wife solved her problem. After being down for over a week she took it back to her IT folks and told them where to shove it and told them if they ever tried to foist anything like that on her again she would make life a living hell for them.
Apparently they got a new IT person from out of school who is big on all things Apple, yet he was pretty much confused as to what happened with her computer and was not in any big hurry to fix it.
They ordered a Dell laptop for her. She should be back to work in a couple of days.
I am thinking that new IT person is not going to be around very long. In an industry where a few minutes of downtime can costs tens of thousands of dollars, being down over a week is just insane.
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(http://cdn.thenextweb.com/files/2010/09/mac01.jpg)
http://cdn.thenextweb.com/files/2010/09/mac01.jpg (http://cdn.thenextweb.com/files/2010/09/mac01.jpg)
Always a fun read.
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Wife solved her problem. After being down for over a week she took it back to her IT folks and told them where to shove it and told them if they ever tried to foist anything like that on her again she would make life a living hell for them.
Apparently they got a new IT person from out of school who is big on all things Apple, yet he was pretty much confused as to what happened with her computer and was not in any big hurry to fix it.
They ordered a Dell laptop for her. She should be back to work in a couple of days.
I am thinking that new IT person is not going to be around very long. In an industry where a few minutes of downtime can costs tens of thousands of dollars, being down over a week is just insane.
Apparently you got a lemon. We haven't had a single problem with the dozen macs we have at the office. I'm 99% sure it was a hardware problem - if it was anything software related a simple reinstall would have reset the situation.
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(http://cdn.thenextweb.com/files/2010/09/mac01.jpg)
http://cdn.thenextweb.com/files/2010/09/mac01.jpg (http://cdn.thenextweb.com/files/2010/09/mac01.jpg)
Always a fun read.
Heh if you can't afford a Ferrari you obviously don't buy one.
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Heh if you can't afford a Ferrari you obviously don't buy one.
I think the right quote would be "if you can't afford a car that looks like a ferrari but isnt dont buy one" :).
semp
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I think the right quote would be "if you can't afford a car that looks like a ferrari but isnt dont buy one" :).
semp
And the correct answer would be "if you don't know what you're talking about you should be silent" :)
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And the correct answer would be "if you don't know what you're talking about you should be silent" :)
I may not know anything except about how best to spend my money :salute.
semp
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And the correct answer would be "if you don't know what you're talking about you should be silent" :)
:rofl
People in the know would build their own "Ferrari" ie Hackintosh and save big time on AppleSnob tax...
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:rofl
People in the know would build their own "Ferrari" ie Hackintosh and save big time on AppleSnob tax...
That would be like tuning a volkswagen beetle with a fiber glass chassis kit and calling it a Ferrari :)
OSX works so well because Apple controls the hardware. When you start to blend in general off the shelf hardware nobody guarantees it will work anymore.
I don't know what was the problem in Skuzzys case but whatever it was it's highly unusual. I don't understand why nobody tried reinstalling the OS for example when the stability problem started.
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That would be like tuning a volkswagen beetle with a fiber glass chassis kit and calling it a Ferrari :)
OSX works so well because Apple controls the hardware. When you start to blend in general off the shelf hardware nobody guarantees it will work anymore.
I don't know what was the problem in Skuzzys case but whatever it was it's highly unusual. I don't understand why nobody tried reinstalling the OS for example when the stability problem started.
Rip, I do not know everything that was tried on that computer. All I know is the company decided not to go with Apple due to the down time, frustration with all involved, and lack of support from Apple.
I look around here (all Windows based) and other than building new computers, there has only been instances of downtime totaling about 20 hours in the last 11 years. The Wife's company is the same way. Insignificant amounts of downtime, until the Apple experiment.
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Rip, I do not know everything that was tried on that computer. All I know is the company decided not to go with Apple due to the down time, frustration with all involved, and lack of support from Apple.
I look around here (all Windows based) and other than building new computers, there has only been instances of downtime totaling about 20 hours in the last 11 years. The Wife's company is the same way. Insignificant amounts of downtime, until the Apple experiment.
Well this was obviously not Apples fault but the people handling the support. I would have been able to assess the situation in 30 minutes and determine if it was a hardware problem or not. A mac is not an ouja board, it follows the same computational basics as any other OS. During the years our company has used macs I've seen only two problems. One was my MBP dying due to faulty nvidia chipset (which I revived by using a hot air gun to re-solder the surface soldered components) and other was having wifi problems due to first editions of OSX Lion. The wifi problems were gone after a patch - but drove me crazy in the meanwhile. I had to manually define the network settings or use a wired connection if I wanted safari or OSX updates to work. Firefox and chrome worked just fine :)
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That would be like tuning a volkswagen beetle with a fiber glass chassis kit and calling it a Ferrari :)
Not even remotely. Top quality hardware (in many cases better than whatever is in Apple boxes), matching the performance on component by component basis, lets say Mac Pro, will be 30-40% cheaper.
For example, 8GB ECC top quality memory for Mac Pro will cost you under $200, Apple wants $375, 8GB for iMac under $100, Apple charges $200. Pretty high markup, don't you think?
And installing OSX on such a self-build machine it really is a trivial exercise.
OSX works so well because Apple controls the hardware.
No, OSX works well becasue it's based on solid OS, and hardware is overpriced because Apple controls it.
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Not even remotely. Top quality hardware (in many cases better than whatever is in Apple boxes), matching the performance on component by component basis, lets say Mac Pro, will be 30-40% cheaper.
For example, 8GB ECC top quality memory for Mac Pro will cost you under $200, Apple wants $375, 8GB for iMac under $100, Apple charges $200. Pretty high markup, don't you think?
And installing OSX on such a self-build machine it really is a trivial exercise.
No, OSX works well becasue it's based on solid OS, and hardware is overpriced because Apple controls it.
Heh, no. OSX works well because it's optimized for a predetermined setup. Apple doesn't have to support 3 billion different hardware configurations like windows has to - and what hackintosh people are trying to do. There's simply no guarantee there is even driver support for any of your hackintosh components - unless they happen to be ones already present in Apple models.
I know the components are overpriced. So is a Ferrari. If you want good value buy a Toyota.
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Heh, no. OSX works well because it's optimized for a predetermined setup. Apple doesn't have to support 3 billion different hardware configurations like windows has to - and what hackintosh people are trying to do. There's simply no guarantee there is even driver support for any of your hackintosh components - unless they happen to be ones already present in Apple models.
I know the components are overpriced. So is a Ferrari. If you want good value buy a Toyota.
mrripley give it up apple is not a Ferrari. it's just an overpriced Toyota pretending to be a Ferrari.
semp
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mrripley give it up apple is not a Ferrari. it's just an overpriced Toyota pretending to be a Ferrari.
semp
Heh, ok. What would you consider to be the Ferrari of the computer world? I.e. high performance, premium price and premium quality? No windows machine applies. No linux machine applies. No BSD machine applies. What's left?
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Apple is the Ferrari of marketing. The hardware is nothing special at all. The computers are all off-the-shelf components wrapped in a pretty case. You pay a premium for them due to the low sales volume and Apples penchant for demanding 400%+ gross profit margins (take alook at their financials sometime). The OS is just another OS. Apple makes as many design mistakes (hardare and software) as any other company.
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Heh, ok. What would you consider to be the Ferrari of the computer world? I.e. high performance, premium price and premium quality? No windows machine applies. No linux machine applies. No BSD machine applies. What's left?
Ah c'mon, have you never heard of something like SGI and their Indigo, Onyx and Octane workstations? Octane III had 20 Xeons cluster. How's that for Ferrari?
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Apple is the Ferrari of marketing. The hardware is nothing special at all. The computers are all off-the-shelf components wrapped in a pretty case. You pay a premium for them due to the low sales volume and Apples penchant for demanding 400%+ gross profit margins (take alook at their financials sometime). The OS is just another OS. Apple makes as many design mistakes (hardare and software) as any other company.
This is a matter of opinnion. OSX is very intuitive and easy to use and so are most of the softwares built for it. I'm not claiming OSX is perfect. But it beats windows any time. Ever tried connecting your laptop to bluetooth audio for example? :)
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Ah c'mon, have you never heard of something like SGI and their Indigo, Onyx and Octane workstations? Octane III had 20 Xeons cluster. How's that for Ferrari?
Actually I haven't heard about them and I doubt most of the consumers either. You must be talking about non-consumer products there.
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This is a matter of opinnion. OSX is very intuitive and easy to use and so are most of the softwares built for it. I'm not claiming OSX is perfect. But it beats windows any time. Ever tried connecting your laptop to bluetooth audio for example? :)
Really, it is not a matter of opinion and you just proved it. There is nothing intutive about using any type of computer GUI, but Apple has you convinced. That is good marketing at work. When you are a pawn and do not realize it, they did their job. I have worked in marketing and the marketing folks at Apple just did a 'high five' when you made that statement.
I do not use laptops, and I certainly never use wireless, for computer comms. Picking some esoteric function, of any OS, and citing it the reason it is better, strikes me as being desparate to prove a point.
If you want to play that game, pick something more common, such as how to get a CD/DVD out of the Macbook Pro drive. If anyone wants a good laugh, search that on Google and read the various forums and see how many answers you get. It is a hoot. Real intutive.
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Really, it is not a matter of opinion and you just proved it. There is nothing intutive about using any type of computer GUI, but Apple has you convinced. That is good marketing at work. When you are a pawn and do not realize it, they did their job. I have worked in marketing and the marketing folks at Apple just did a 'high five' when you made that statement.
I do not use laptops, and I certainly never use wireless, for computer comms. Picking some esoteric function, of any OS, and citing it the reason it is better, strikes me as being desparate to prove a point.
If you want to play that game, pick something more common, such as how to get a CD/DVD out of the Macbook Pro drive. If anyone wants a good laugh, search that on Google and read the various forums and see how many answers you get. It is a hoot. Real intutive.
I used to be a mac hater like you before I was forced to start to use it through my work. So much for your theory about marketing :)
I shared all your frustrations when I had to learn a new way of thinking while using the mac. Now I prefer to use the mac 10 out of 10 times for any general task. Only gaming is an area where windows beats macs.
If your biggest problem is how to get a cd out of a drive then one would say things are very good indeed when comparing to the cluster duck windows is. By the way there are several ways to eject a cd. One is the obvious eject button (which just happens to be in a different place from a windows machine - again, stuck on windows), second is going to the cd image icon on your desktop and choosing 'eject' from one of the menus available i.e. right click menu, control click menu, top of the display menu always present... (one would think a veteran pc user such as you would have thunkit), third way is to click the 'eject' button in finder (equivalent of windows explorer) - the final and ridiculously obvious way is to drag the cd image to the trashcan which causes the cd to eject. :)
Once you think about it, the only and single reason why you and I both were hammering their heads to find the eject button was because we were stuck on windows way of thinking. OSX is different. I know from personal experience that people who bash it most likely just lack experience and have no clue about what they're talking. You're obviously a very experienced PC user Roy, but this time I think you're just being conservative and fear the unknown :)
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Let's be very clear. I have an equal disdain for ANY GUI. Even UNIX based ones.
It has nothing to with what I am used to. I have used Apple computers quite a bit in my career. Always thought the way they did things was screwy. I think Microsoft does screwy things too. I think X Windows is also a bit weird.
Eject buttons come with ROM devices which is why everyone is used to the eject button being near the door. It has nothing to do with the OS or Apple or Microsoft. Apple is the only one who decided not to put an eject button near the door. So much for intuitive.
the final and ridiculously obvious way is to drag the cd image to the trashcan which causes the cd to eject.
Oh yeah, everyone is born knowing that. By the way, you notice most of the methods rely on an ICON. What happens when there is no ICON?
Reminds me of the time Apple had to place an engineer in my office to keep an Apple computer running while I worked on a driver. On more than one occasion the power button stopped working. Because, as we all know, the power button is not a mechanical device on an Apple computer. It is a software device. Works fine until it does not. The engineer had to take the computer back to Apple on several occasions due to the power button not working any longer because of some corruption in the ROM.
Little things like that make an Apple special. It does not make them intuitive/instinctive. How is anyone born with an innate knowledge of how Apple decides things should be done?
One day my Wife and I were out and about and she asked me to call her Mom as she was making some notes for work. I did not have my cheap little flip phone with me, so she gave me her Samsung Galaxy. I looked at it and turned to her and went, "How do you make a phone call?"
She looks at me and very frustratingly states, "What do you mean?" I turned the phone to her and pointed at it and asked, "How do you make a phone call with this?" She gave up, took it away from me, did some kind of finger exercises on the screen and made the call. Even after watching her, there is no way I could ever make a phone call with that phone. Yet, people say it is intuitive. They say the same thing about the iPhone.
I really think people do not know what the word, "intuitive", means. Personally, I have an aversion to any type of GUI. They get in my way and I really do not like them. My way of thinking is, if you are going to learn to use a computer, then learn to use the computer and not some awkward GUI.
That said, I did write a text/ASCII based context sensitive interface for users to use who did not want to learn how to use a computer. It was UNIX based and did not require a mouse. Single keystrokes opened files, started applications or both. My thought was if your using a word processor, then why should you take your hands off the keyboard. Everything was tightly integrated, easy to use, and easy to administrate. It was very popular. My Wife still uses it.
So when you start telling me I do not like something because I am not used to it, I have to giggle a bit. On the other hand, you have to make some type of rationalization in order to support your arguments and I guess that is as good as any, even if there is no basis in truth.
My opinion of Apple, or Microsoft, or UNIX OS's is not based on ignorance. It is based on actual usage of all those OS's. You argue Apple's way is intuitive. I argue there is no such thing as anyone being born with a instinctive understanding of how any GUI works. Show me the DNA evidence to prove me wrong.
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Let's be very clear. I have an equal disdain for ANY GUI. Even UNIX based ones.
It has nothing to with what I am used to. I have used Apple computers quite a bit in my career. Always thought the way they did things was screwy. I think Microsoft does screwy things too. I think X Windows is also a bit weird.
Eject buttons come with ROM devices which is why everyone is used to the eject button being near the door. It has nothing to do with the OS or Apple or Microsoft. Apple is the only one who decided not to put an eject button near the door. So much for intuitive.
Oh yeah, everyone is born knowing that. By the way, you notice most of the methods rely on an ICON. What happens when there is no ICON?
Hmm, if there is no icon the media is already ejected. In which way in your opinnion, is windows more intuitive in ways of ejecting the media? Unless you know exactly what you're doing it's going to be difficult in windows - not to mention in CLI.
Reminds me of the time Apple had to place an engineer in my office to keep an Apple computer running while I worked on a driver. On more than one occasion the power button stopped working. Because, as we all know, the power button is not a mechanical device on an Apple computer. It is a software device. Works fine until it does not. The engineer had to take the computer back to Apple on several occasions due to the power button not working any longer because of some corruption in the ROM.
Older Apple models were quirky or so I've heard. I have no personal experience from those days. I can only speak for post-intel era Macs.
Little things like that make an Apple special. It does not make them intuitive/instinctive. How is anyone born with an innate knowledge of how Apple decides things should be done?
How do people learn to use a complicated smart phone like the iPhone with no user manual? It's simple. It works. It's intuitive. The first minute I held it in my hand I already was familiar with all the basic functionality that was needed to place calls, sms, navigate or use the net. A big contrast to my previous Nokia communicator that was an absolute nightmare.
One day my Wife and I were out and about and she asked me to call her Mom as she was making some notes for work. I did not have my cheap little flip phone with me, so she gave me her Samsung Galaxy. I looked at it and turned to her and went, "How do you make a phone call?"
She looks at me and very frustratingly states, "What do you mean?" I turned the phone to her and pointed at it and asked, "How do you make a phone call with this?" She gave up, took it away from me, did some kind of finger exercises on the screen and made the call. Even after watching her, there is no way I could ever make a phone call with that phone. Yet, people say it is intuitive. They say the same thing about the iPhone.
Yep, Samsung is an Android phone. I think the 'roid' in Android is a derivative of hemorrhoids. I made the mistake of buying an android phone to my kid - I spent half night trying to figure out how to do stuff with it. Something as simple as a USB connection requires a pull-down menu and whatnot to achieve.
I really think people do not know what the word, "intuitive", means. Personally, I have an aversion to any type of GUI. They get in my way and I really do not like them. My way of thinking is, if you are going to learn to use a computer, then learn to use the computer and not some awkward GUI.
For people who are not accustomed to using any particular system, a clear GUI is a must. I didn't need to think how to get things done with the iPhone. It was obvious and it worked on the first go.
That said, I did write a text/ASCII based context sensitive interface for users to use who did not want to learn how to use a computer. It was UNIX based and did not require a mouse. Single keystrokes opened files, started applications or both. My thought was if your using a word processor, then why should you take your hands off the keyboard. Everything was tightly integrated, easy to use, and easy to administrate. It was very popular. My Wife still uses it.
Keyboard based interfaces are super slick but require remembering key commands by heart. Once you achieve that it's a dream to use. Our own software utilizes key shortcuts - we do have a GUI with menus and stuff but you can do everything through key shortcuts.
So when you start telling me I do not like something because I am not used to it, I have to giggle a bit. On the other hand, you have to make some type of rationalization in order to support your arguments and I guess that is as good as any, even if there is no basis in truth.
My opinion of Apple, or Microsoft, or UNIX OS's is not based on ignorance. It is based on actual usage of all those OS's. You argue Apple's way is intuitive. I argue there is no such thing as anyone being born with a instinctive understanding of how any GUI works. Show me the DNA evidence to prove me wrong.
You're going very defensive there :) The proof is in the pudding. I garantee that an average person learns how to use an Apple product much faster than any windows/linux based product so far. Perhaps win8 will change that - or take it to a worse direction. Haven't tried it yet.
When I recommended the OP to get his niece a mac, I did it from my personal experience. I used windows/linux based computers for well over a decade untill my business partner talked me over to switching to a mac. At first I cursed him to the lowest of hell - but after using OSX for a couple of years I never boot to windows anymore unless I absolutely must. Everything is simpler, easyer and generally just works better, not just the OS but also third party software which I found the most amazing.
How you can't see that is beyond me.
I don't mean to make this an extended argument. You're entitled to your opinnion as I am to mine. Perhaps we just have to agree to disagree :)
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If you think people are born with some knowledge of how to use a computer GUI then we cannot have any reasonable conversation about the topic. So far, you have not proven anything, but you have been defending your opinion as if it were fact. From where I sit, you bought into the marketing in a big way. You just do not realize it.
You can "guarantee" all you like. It does not mean it is true. My Wife had to use Apple computers in school and she grew to hate them. "That is the most convoluted piece of carp I have ever had to use", was her experience. Her opinion was only reinforced with the latest Apple debacle.
To eject a disc in UNIX, usually the "umount" command works, or you just press the eject button, if it is not mounted. That is as intuitive as Apples's way. You just press the button with Microsoft as well. Again, the button next to the door taught us how to eject the discs.
Smartphones, for me, are generally clumsy devices and awkward to use. I just want a phone that will make calls. I can hold and dial mine in one hand. There is nothing obvious about the iPhone or Droids. They all seem to be extreme time wasters.
My context based shell had the keystrokes on the screen, next to each item. Nothing to memorize. You could change them if you wanted to. Directories were marked with a '/' on the end of the name. There was a create and remove mode. The shell started in edit mode.
I get that you like Apple. Fine by me. Just stop with the claims of it being "intuitive". No one is born knowing how to use a computer. The first time any child sees a computer all they see are pretty pictures. There is nothing they get from that display that is going to trigger an instinctive response to click on something with a mechanical device not part of their own body.
There is nothing about a smart phone which is going to activate an instinctive response to wipe their finger across the screen to get to something.
No one is born with that knowledge.
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Actually I haven't heard about them and I doubt most of the consumers either.
Silicon Graphics Inc, the legend of CGI. You as an IT professional you should have.
You must be talking about non-consumer products there.
Ah, define what is consumer high-end Ferrari desktop system. If you say top of the line Mac Pro, than this should apply to any other top of the line x86 workstation too.
Speaking about consumer products.
You surely are aware that Apple's computer business was dying (betting on the wrong horse too many times) and Apple would probably be just a memory if not for Microsoft bailing them out.
Their transition from computer manufacturer to consumer electronics company (icraplets, dumbphones, etc), and as Skuzzy mentioned, top notch marketing, is what made Apple what it is today, not some perceived superior computer OS or hardware it runs on.
Purely on technological merits, Apple computers (OS included) are not better nor worse than anything else on the market, claiming otherwise, just makes you a fanboy.
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Oh, the hatred and fear. Oh! :lol
I was once just like you. It's almost sad when I look back.
Silicon Graphics Inc, the legend of CGI. You as an IT professional you should have.
Lol you're speaking about age old machines once used for movie rendering. It's not even remotely in my scope of interests. :D
Ah, define what is consumer high-end Ferrari desktop system. If you say top of the line Mac Pro, than this should apply to any other top of the line x86 workstation too.
And you would be so wrong. If it has windows it's average at maximum. Linux/BSD excels in anything but desktop use. A Mac is top of the line portable/desktop machine you can get from the shop today.
Speaking about consumer products.
You surely are aware that Apple's computer business was dying (betting on the wrong horse too many times) and Apple would probably be just a memory if not for Microsoft bailing them out.
Their transition from computer manufacturer to consumer electronics company (icraplets, dumbphones, etc), and as Skuzzy mentioned, top notch marketing, is what made Apple what it is today, not some perceived superior computer OS or hardware it runs on.
Purely on technological merits, Apple computers (OS included) are not better nor worse than anything else on the market, claiming otherwise, just makes you a fanboy.
Surely you were aware that once Apple booted Steve Jobs it lacked vision and leadership and it showed as inferior products. Once Steve took control back, things changed in a big way.
But you can keep on hating as much as you want and keep jacking the clumsy, malware ridden junk (don't forget to tattoo the IP of combofix download to your arm in case dns changer takes over your box) :D In the meanwhile I'll continue using my several Apple products and wouldn't have it any other way.
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I love it when i get honest conflicting opinions it helps me learn. I havent used an apple product since the appleIIc back in high school. I loved that computer as I could make it do almost anything I wanted as long as I created the program. have never used one since then. only reason is price. I dont really think any os is intuitive I look at them the way I look at ms word. it always thinks that what is does is what I want.
semp
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When Jobs was not there, marketing lost control and power. Jobs was a marketing genius and that was why Apple was strong when he lead them. Jobs could take a sublimely stupid idea and convince people it was the best thing ever. He was one of the best.
Conversely, Microsoft is a lousy marketing company. They just laid off 2/3 of thier entire marketing staff. The bean counter running Microsoft today has no idea it is all about marketing. His idea is to make Microsoft a patent holding company deriving the bulk of its revenues from its patent portfolio.
Who do you think will win, in the long run?
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Lol you're speaking about age old machines once used for movie rendering. It's not even remotely in my scope of interests. :D
LOL? Age old? Well what ever suits you. You can buy OctaneIII directly from SGI brand new, today.
Current "SGI Toyota" specs:
Octane III OC3-2TY12
Two dual-socket (two trays)
One Intel 5500 per node
Four Intel Xeon quad- or six-core 5500 or 5600 series (two per node)
24 cores (12 per node)
384GB (24 x 1333/1066/800 MHz DDR3 ECC reg)
Eight 3.5" (max. 24TB) SAS or SATA II drives (four per node)
SAS RAID controller, JBOD, RAID 0, 1, 10
NVIDIA Quadro FX1800, FX3800, FX4800, FX5800, Quadro 2000,
4000, 5000 or 6000
Compute GPU NVIDIA Tesla C2050 or C2070
Dual GigE (Intel 82576) per node
Two 1000W PS modules
OS:
Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 & 6 Desktop
Novell SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 11
Microsoft Windows 7
If SGI Toyota is still inferior to your Mac, how about SGI Lexus deskside cluster (20 Xeons)?
Yeah I know, not a Ferrari, I get it...
And you would be so wrong. If it has windows it's average at maximum. Linux/BSD excels in anything but desktop use. A Mac is top of the line portable/desktop machine you can get from the shop today.
See above
Surely you were aware that once Apple booted Steve Jobs it lacked vision and leadership and it showed as inferior products. Once Steve took control back, things changed in a big way.
Well, at least you recognize things didn't change because of OSX superiority.
But you can keep on hating as much as you want and keep jacking the clumsy, malware ridden junk (don't forget to tattoo the IP of combofix download to your arm in case dns changer takes over your box) :D In the meanwhile I'll continue using my several Apple products and wouldn't have it any other way.
For the record, we (my wife and I) own macbook pro among others, nice laptop, yet I don't see anything superior on it, especially not OSX.
As far as any serious work is concerned, choice is based on application and then platform, not other way around. If you don't get that, you should change occupation.
Just admit it, you're Apple fanboy.
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LOL? Age old? Well what ever suits you. You can buy OctaneIII directly from SGI brand new, today.
Current "SGI Toyota" specs:
Octane III OC3-2TY12
Two dual-socket (two trays)
One Intel 5500 per node
Four Intel Xeon quad- or six-core 5500 or 5600 series (two per node)
24 cores (12 per node)
384GB (24 x 1333/1066/800 MHz DDR3 ECC reg)
Eight 3.5" (max. 24TB) SAS or SATA II drives (four per node)
SAS RAID controller, JBOD, RAID 0, 1, 10
NVIDIA Quadro FX1800, FX3800, FX4800, FX5800, Quadro 2000,
4000, 5000 or 6000
Compute GPU NVIDIA Tesla C2050 or C2070
Dual GigE (Intel 82576) per node
Two 1000W PS modules
OS:
Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 & 6 Desktop
Novell SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 11
Microsoft Windows 7
If SGI Toyota is still inferior to your Mac, how about SGI Lexus deskside cluster (20 Xeons)?
Yeah I know, not a Ferrari, I get it...
See above
Well, at least you recognize things didn't change because of OSX superiority.
For the record, we (my wife and I) own macbook pro among others, nice laptop, yet I don't see anything superior on it, especially not OSX.
As far as any serious work is concerned, choice is based on application and then platform, not other way around. If you don't get that, you should change occupation.
Just admit it, you're Apple fanboy.
Lol you're confusing astronomically priced professional clusters to consumer pc:s :D Surely the original poster will now run to buy a 20 node cluster to his niece after your apt and thoughtful recommendation! Surely! And yet get it full of viruses. Oh my, imagine the amount of spam a 20 node cluster can process! She will become famous at the campus, while others are slipping their macbook airs into their sleeves, his niece will have a horsecart full of computers and a generator running :D
You're talking about Ferrari F1 and I'm talking about Ferrari Enzo. If you can't see the difference it's your problem!
Just admit it, you see Apple as a red flag and immediately resort to attacks. If you can't see anything superior in OSX, again it's your problem!
It's pretty funny when you keep repeating the mantra about marketing and joyfully sidestep the fact that I have never EVER seen even one advertisement from Apple - not untill I became a user and they started to spam my e-mail that is. It seems you're scared of Apple products and users for some reason and go extremely defensive immediately when someone says they actually like the products for what they are!
What would be your windows equivalent to a Macbook Air? You'll notice the cost is already the same as with Apple. Once you equip the macbook with omnigraffle, iWork and the complimentary iLife suite she'll have a full setup for hobby and presentations. iWork combined with omnigraffle produces stunning visual presentations with unbelievable ease of use. Same goes with iLife suite for beginner level photo, video editing, music etc. For less than 200 bucks!
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Back to the original question. :aok
Many times a school will have a relationship with a company and will recommend a system with a hefty discount thrown in. At my sons school they had a repair shop on campus, if a repair was going to take a couple of days they would give out loaners.
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I will have to ask her about a discount, thats a good idea.
She does not start school till June.
As far as a notebook, I don't think I will be buying one. I still have to talk with her, or my wife will. She is not in the USA and kinda afraid of something like that being stolen, snatched from her possesion. She can carry a flash drive or 2 with assignments back and forth be much easier.
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if a stolen laptop is a concern then go with the cheaper option. if you so decide to get her one.
semp
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I will have to ask her about a discount, thats a good idea.
She does not start school till June.
As far as a notebook, I don't think I will be buying one. I still have to talk with her, or my wife will. She is not in the USA and kinda afraid of something like that being stolen, snatched from her possesion. She can carry a flash drive or 2 with assignments back and forth be much easier.
We also found a pretty cheap insurance policy for his computer. I think it was around a hundred bucks a year or so, it covered theft, breakage, just about anything that could happen to one. This was also recommended by his school.
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We also found a pretty cheap insurance policy for his computer. I think it was around a hundred bucks a year or so, it covered theft, breakage, just about anything that could happen to one. This was also recommended by his school.
Hundred bucks a year cheap? :)
You can have all your house property insured for that price. That's a ripoff. If you're going to get a cheap laptop you're going to pay double the price in 4 years just because of the insurance.
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Hundred bucks a year cheap? :)
Take into account, that in America everything is bigger than anywhere else. :bolt:
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Hundred bucks a year cheap? :)
You can have all your house property insured for that price. That's a ripoff. If you're going to get a cheap laptop you're going to pay double the price in 4 years just because of the insurance.
Maybe you can cover your house for 100 bucks a year, I can't. Who said anything about a cheap laptop, he got a pretty good, at the time, Lenovo thru his school. It had to be beefy enough to run SolidWorks plus other CPU intensive programs his major called for. Certainly it wouldn't be worth it to insure a $250 laptop.
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Maybe you can cover your house for 100 bucks a year, I can't. Who said anything about a cheap laptop, he got a pretty good, at the time, Lenovo thru his school. It had to be beefy enough to run SolidWorks plus other CPU intensive programs his major called for. Certainly it wouldn't be worth it to insure a $250 laptop.
Yeah I have my garage contents (tools and stuff) insured for 20k net worth and it costs me 60 euros a year :) So I'd say that's pretty expensive for a laptop.
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Laptop and other item specific insurances don't usually have an excess of 150 to 300 like a regular cheap home insurance has.
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Hmm, if there is no icon the media is already ejected. In which way in your opinnion, is windows more intuitive in ways of ejecting the media? Unless you know exactly what you're doing it's going to be difficult in windows - not to mention in CLI.
Older Apple models were quirky or so I've heard. I have no personal experience from those days. I can only speak for post-intel era Macs.
How do people learn to use a complicated smart phone like the iPhone with no user manual? It's simple. It works. It's intuitive. The first minute I held it in my hand I already was familiar with all the basic functionality that was needed to place calls, sms, navigate or use the net. A big contrast to my previous Nokia communicator that was an absolute nightmare.
Yep, Samsung is an Android phone. I think the 'roid' in Android is a derivative of hemorrhoids. I made the mistake of buying an android phone to my kid - I spent half night trying to figure out how to do stuff with it. Something as simple as a USB connection requires a pull-down menu and whatnot to achieve.
For people who are not accustomed to using any particular system, a clear GUI is a must. I didn't need to think how to get things done with the iPhone. It was obvious and it worked on the first go.
Keyboard based interfaces are super slick but require remembering key commands by heart. Once you achieve that it's a dream to use. Our own software utilizes key shortcuts - we do have a GUI with menus and stuff but you can do everything through key shortcuts.
You're going very defensive there :) The proof is in the pudding. I garantee that an average person learns how to use an Apple product much faster than any windows/linux based product so far. Perhaps win8 will change that - or take it to a worse direction. Haven't tried it yet.
When I recommended the OP to get his niece a mac, I did it from my personal experience. I used windows/linux based computers for well over a decade untill my business partner talked me over to switching to a mac. At first I cursed him to the lowest of hell - but after using OSX for a couple of years I never boot to windows anymore unless I absolutely must. Everything is simpler, easyer and generally just works better, not just the OS but also third party software which I found the most amazing.
How you can't see that is beyond me.
I don't mean to make this an extended argument. You're entitled to your opinnion as I am to mine. Perhaps we just have to agree to disagree :)
I LOVE PLAYING BF3 ON MY MAC...OH WAI
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I LOVE PLAYING BF3 ON MY MAC...OH WAI
HIS NIECE PLAYS BF3 AT SCHOOL.. OH WAI