Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: mthrockmor on April 23, 2012, 09:17:22 AM
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Flame away but...
The hord is getting old, for the sake of hording. I'm not complaining but there must be a higher purpose. In conjunction with this there are many great ideas about adjustments to make this game more strategic, not just furball or horde. Ideas such as returning zone strats, cargo fleets, etc.
With hording/base taking, what if in order to take a base you had to post a mission. No mission posted, the base becomes indestructable, no capture. Post a mission then you can actually take the base. As part of posting a mission you would have identified a dedicated mission commander. Once the base is taken all of those who signed up for the mission would receive X amount of perk points.
My thought is doing something like this creates organization, and an incentive to participate in a meaningful way. If you think to follow the horde without signing up for the mission, no perks in the end so reduces incentive. And for the final touch to this idea, depending on the base you take you are limited on the number of participants in a mission. Say for a small port, you can have no more then 8 in the mission. All the way to a large airfield you can have up to 20, or something like that.
It would control the size of the horde, give focus and require some strategic thought. It would also bring meaning to being part of a squadron and could even build teamwork among squadrons.
On the flip side, if a mission has been posted to take base X and you and your squadies defend base X then you get perk points. Again, maybe a defensive mission is posted and all of those that sign up to defend, if successful get perk points. You can still defend the base if not part of the defense mission but no perk points unless part of the defensive team.
I like the idea but flame away....
Boo
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Horde Commander would just create that 8-man mission, with all other 30 simply joining the attack without being part of the "mission". :devil
And what about the defenders? Are they getting to be unlimited, i.e. a "honest" 8-man mission will have to cope with 30 defenders on the ground? What about reinforcements? ....
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The proper antidote of hording is reading the dar bars.
Sadly, nobody does this and ends up feeding the horde fighter score.
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:rofl :rofl :rofl
Good luck BOO, you have a better chance of getting the ME410 before any meaningful gameplay changes are adopted!
I think it was 2 weeks :aok
JUGgler
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Anti-horde is a non-sense. Combat filght simulation are horde oriented by definition.
There are not no horde situation.
On the contrary, I agree with the idea that the game has low 'emotional' profile in Ma.
As i said in past time, it needs small targets that can attrack just few players.
:salute
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The proper antidote of hording is reading the dar bars.
Sadly, nobody does this and ends up feeding the horde fighter score.
As in not upping if there's a horde dar bar?
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Good luck BOO, you have a better chance of getting the ME410 before any meaningful gameplay changes are adopted!
The vast majority of "meaningful gameplay changes" proposed by players... aren't ;)
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The vast majority of "meaningful gameplay changes" proposed by players... aren't ;)
Ah! yes, but some are! BTW I'm not a player :aok ;) :salute
JUGgler
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As in not upping if there's a horde dar bar?
No - get your team to up before that darbar pops over into your sector where your base is at.
OR
Get everyone to up from a nearby base, head in that direction at ~14K, dive in and profit.
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The proper antidote of hording is reading the dar bars.
Sadly, nobody does this and ends up feeding the horde fighter score.
Depends who you fly with, Top Gun tends to hop countries daily because of this "Hording and dar bar". We feed our fighter scores off the hordes, Generally speaking we are usually only Knights or Rooks.
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You can't force good game-play on a group that isn't willing to think of the 'other guy'. If they want to take 30 guys to an undefended base, they will do it.
I think zone ENY would slow the hordes down a little, but even that wouldn't eliminate them entirely. This is evidenced by seeing a country hording one base and the other country doing the same, 25 miles away. It is amazing how they never seem to meet, like magnets with both north poles facing one another.
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This is evidenced by seeing a country hording one base and the other country doing the same, 25 miles away. It is amazing how they never seem to meet, like magnets with both north poles facing one another.
"I'm tired of defending, lets HIT EM!"
But you never read "I'm tired of attacking, let's defend some bases!"
Horde or non horde, "attacking" seems just to be psychologically way more atrractive to most players than defending. Ya know, having the initiative, getting a more eye-catching and definite result "AXX has been captured by", and such stuff.
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Horde or non horde, "attacking" seems just to be psychologically way more atrractive to most players than defending. Ya know, having the initiative, getting a more eye-catching and definite result "AXX has been captured by", and such stuff.
That is the biggest reason I'm in favor of making them defend the base after they take it. Ack (at the very least) should stay down after capture until resupplied. As it is right now, Aces High is more like playing 'whack a mole' as the horde moves from one base to another after they take bases.
Last night was a great example; 3 or 4 of us were defending the base against 25+. As soon as the base was taken, all but a couple landed and went to another base 75 miles away.
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That is the biggest reason I'm in favor of making them defend the base after they take it. Ack (at the very least) should stay down after capture until resupplied. As it is right now, Aces High is more like playing 'whack a mole' as the horde moves from one base to another after they take bases.
And in my opinion one of the main reasons of that is the lack of a kind of "strategic" target.
Winning the war is just about having # of bases. The individual base as almost no "worth" or functional role beyond x % closer to reset. That's why hordes hit here and there all over the map, because it's (simplified spoken) just a matter of capturing fields quicker than the enemy.
"And if we manage to do a breakthrough here, we may get into position to launch and offensive to Berlin next spring!"
"Screw that, the Germans will expect us there. Let's just grab 2 bases in Norway, 2 more in Sicily, one in France and we will get the reset."
Later:
System: Négligeable-sur-mer has been captured by the Allies. The Allies have won the war! Europe will change in 4 minutes.
German Country Chat: That's what we get for furballing over Berlin!
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This is Aces High today...
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff14/DeliriumP38/AcesHigh-1.jpg)
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That is the biggest reason I'm in favor of making them defend the base after they take it. Ack (at the very least) should stay down after capture until resupplied. As it is right now, Aces High is more like playing 'whack a mole' as the horde moves from one base to another after they take bases.
Last night was a great example; 3 or 4 of us were defending the base against 25+. As soon as the base was taken, all but a couple landed and went to another base 75 miles away.
i do agree with once the ack is down it needs to stay down till it gets resupplied, this instantly regenerated ack is utter nonsense and gives the defenders no chance of retaking the base.
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BTW I'm not a player :aok ;) :salute
Of course you aren't! You're a "Playa"! :D
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I have a film I took Saturday that shows the bish taking a45. There were so many that they don't show.up in the film. There was 40-48 of them with about 20 in b17s for a grand total of 80+ planes against 8 defenders.
Yup sure was fun! :rolleyes:
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I don't think the ack will change the mentality. Regularly you see a base taken and no defense period. The groups move on and so what if the enemy is retaking it? That means they aren't defending where the masses go next. I personally like defending, but there's not always near enough people because they are all off on those dual 30 man missions that are going to neighboring bases while ignoring the two that were just taken because: "Who cares? We'll just all go back and retake it!"
That is why I don't do many missions anymore. Heck, half of the missions when it comes to operations, are like this:
Pilot: Are we being assigned targets?
Mission Leader (ML): No. Just go in and bomb, we have more than enough people.
Pilot: Okay!
ML: I call the (type) Hangar!
All 20-30 Planes Drop.
ML: We need these hangars down!
Pilot(s): We've all dropped
ML: We need more people to take out those remaining hangars and then we need them to kill the town!
Audience: That's a small base... and you need more? No one is defending it...
That is the life of a Horde Watcher. Your head learns to shake a lot.
(The names have been changed to protect the some honor and dignity. No other facts were changed in the making of this post)
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Wednesday/Thursday of last week, I saw a mission similar to what Fugitive described. They came in and carpet bombed the town, dropping troops as they did. To me that seems to be the surest way for a large group to roll bases. More buffs than can be reasonably shot down unless a huge defense is mounted, many goons in the mix to drop their troops... A few escort fighters to bust up whatever defense may be there...
I think it would take a fairly decent size defensive force finding them in transit to stop something like that.
My only frustration with the situation was that I didn't have enough ammo or time to kill more buffs. I only came out of it with 2 or 3 buffs and a fighter...
Wiley.
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Place CV style puffy ack around towns and triple the numbers. At least the hoard will have to stay below 3k to get near the town. Defenders will be able to BnZ them with impunity. Then if they bring their own mobile ack barge inshore everyone has to stay below 3k.
Maybe it's time to increase the town percentage down for white flag to 30-100% and shorten the ack and building respawn time. Then tack on 1-2 required captured feilds to reset the map. Or those 1-2 required feilds have the additional ack and modified times. My reasoning for the modified times on 1-2 key feilds is this being a game, the hoards are being used to circumvent having to fight for an objective by weight of shear numbers. Not to pick a fight to draw up defenders to play with as part of the reward of ultimatly taking the objective.
The WW2 Operation Corkscrew, the capture of Pantelleria was one of the first authentic aircraft hoarding operations in the world. Over 10 days 14,000 bombs were dropped on the island. Our hoarding is not without precidence. But, in the real WW2 men died and it was understandable trying methods to save lives while attempting to shorten the war.
A polar difference from our established near nightly hoard is when some of the older established squads from thier country decide to roll feilds once in awhile. The fights are vicious due to the veterens involved and the coordinated timing and delivery of assets against the objective leaves littel room to make mistakes while defending. It's as adrenalin pumping and white knuckle as randomly getting into a 1vs 1 with no interuption against a hot vet who knows what he's doing. We simply don't see as much activity by older squads in hoard numbers anymore as our ever constant near nightly RollemHarry Hoard.
Every few years Hitech has tweeked the game in minor and major ways, ostensibly to influence player motivation and subsiquent activity methods to achive in game goals. In each instance these were either in response to obvious community degenerative issues or seemingly capricious, resulting in at least one large ingroup being deprived of their game dominance. The resulting howling in this forum in itself was often worth the short adaptation period inconvienence of the Hitech induced change.
At the moment we seem too stable and complacent.
Our complaints are more ritualistc now as if a requirement to belch during a meal to compliment the host. This game is not a contest to see who can complain the loudest or most. Or a contest to see who can cause the most trouble in the forum while escaping official sensure. At the moment these activities have more passion in them than what takes place in the Arena.
The more realistic town does require a hoard to efficiently take it down opposed to the old style town that 3 players late at night could drop with 2-110 and NOE a goon to drop troops. Or one box of Lancs in one pass and a goon. We were complacent and stable back then complaining about many of the same issues. Hitech invariably would tweek something making us uncomfortable while we adapted. But, during that adaptation period we would change for awhile. We took risks and fought more outside of being part of comfortable groups while we attempted to game the change and become comfortable again.
I for one would vote for some Hitech induced game discomfort about now. At least the forum complaints would have some new life to them.
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:headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch:
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This is why you see me stating time and again that the industrial capacity of the enemy nations should be included in the win the war requirements. No, it won't stop the horde from doing the hording, but it will take us away from the, "Capture X number of each nation's bases and you win the map." routine, and maybe give us more fighting across the map. It'll be, "Capture x number of each nation's bases and reduce each nation's strats to less than 20% and you win the map.".
Also, the inclusion of HiTech's Concrete Factory that affects the town's down time in their respective zones and Railyards that affect the spawn time of the AI supply convoy's in their respective zones, could prove to be helpful in some form or another.
I remember reading in a topic somewhere that Towns actually had puffy over the field in the past. So bustr's idea to bring it back may help in this as well. If they brought back the zone base system (while keeping the Capital), those key bases you are talking about bustr, could be the modified (key) bases with the beefed up requirements to capture. This could work out nicely as well.
Using Compello as an example:
There are 4 Zones, 1 on X side, 1 on Y side, 1 "in the middle" and the Capital/HQ zone (or maybe just 3 zones, in which case you just eliminate the "in the middle" zone). To win the war, you need to capture 20% of each side's bases, INCLUDING capturing the zone bases (which will not be included into the percentage required for bases(?) This may make it TOO hard to win the war at which point, having them as part of the 20% would be acceptable) in each zone AND reduce the industrial capacity of each nation (all strats, concrete factory and railyards included if they are added) below 20% to win the war.
For a small map like Grinder:
The industrial capacity requirement remains the same. There would not be a Capital, but the old strat system layout, scattered strats with the City near the HQ, and the others not so close to the front to where they would be surrounded by bases taken, with 2-3 zone bases (1 zone base towards each front and possibly one near-ish HQ). Or, the Capital stay's and just make 2-3 bases a zone required base (which would be the easiest to implement).
This MAY thin out the horde, but probably won't. However, we are likely to see more fighting across the map vs the usual bottleneck fronts we see.
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That is the biggest reason I'm in favor of making them defend the base after they take it. Ack (at the very least) should stay down after capture until resupplied. As it is right now, Aces High is more like playing 'whack a mole' as the horde moves from one base to another after they take bases.
Last night was a great example; 3 or 4 of us were defending the base against 25+. As soon as the base was taken, all but a couple landed and went to another base 75 miles away.
Yup, take the base and leave. Win de War.....Good idea delirium.
To the OP The hordes have been here since the beginning.
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the hordes represent the mindless masses. in RL, 95% of people you meet fall into this category. no surprise it translates into an MMO. mindless masses.........
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Well buster, you can still take down a town with a couple of guys. Now you have to use buffs, and you have to have enough SKILL to space your drops properly on the right headings. Something that is WAAAYYYYYY over the heads of most of todays players.
Instead of precision dropping town building with "just enough ord" we get 50-60% of the population of one country to drop as many bombs as they can and "hope" they take enough down.
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Never underestimate the power of Hitech to influence the masses in his small universe over time. Personaly I beleive it's time again. Frighteningly my give a woot value is so low just about any change by him will be something to get excited about. Especially if it makes all of the masses uncomfortable and have to learn something new. Or even remember something old.
At least we will have to act clever for awhile untill we figure how to game it into the lowest common denominator while cycling back to this point again. I've watched this a few times now. Hitech makes a significant change to the game. We go through the learning and whining process along with Hitech making subsiquent tweeks while listening to the whines increase or decrease. An ingroup discovers how to finess the change to their advantage. A year or two later everyone is bored and we have more fun attacking each other here in the forum than being bored chasing around the group of players who figured out how to leverage the last social engineering change to their advantage.
Let everyone in every country see everybody else anywhere on the map for awhile. The last time the radar circles overlapped you could see everybody upping off the end of the runway. There was alot of fighting in the arena and epic whining on this forum. But, for awhile you could hunt people down and have at them before they hid in the localisation nature of dar and avoided having to fight for their spoils.
In Hitech's Empire sometimes the Lions are in acendancy and sometime the Lambs are. Right now the Lambs do rule while the Lions starve and get bored. I've seen Lions lately declaire themselves nonplayers. A war game needs both Lions, Lambs and rousing good uncertain terror in between. Our current hoard seems to have definantly removed the uncertanty. Eliminated the terror uncertainty produces. While mastering the techniques of end running the lions before any massive war like responses take place to reduce their own chances of failure. No downsides most of the time if you just avoid the Lions who of late have gotten apathetic about chasing down 30-40 players who don't want to fight in the first place. A well oiled, effortless, almost infinantly reproducable win. Hitech should just give everyone the #1 rank standing and 5000 perk points for simply logging into the arena at this point if thats our game for now on.
I think it's time again to shake this sand box up and throw a wrench in the well oiled complacency and watch the antpile scramble. Players won't do it themsleves even if you pay them to change. But, if it's done to them, they will step out of their comfort zones for a time and ingeniously adapt untill they can beat or whine the new change into comfortable submission. The adaptation to a change stage has generated some of the best times in this game over the years. And some of the loudest and epic whining too. Ear plugs...........get your era plugs...all colors and sizes...get your ear plugs.....
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I got a rare chance to jump an NOE 'horde' lol yeah I said it.
They just happened to fly across the ocean where we had a carrier nearby. It was a lot of fun flying light in the mismatched plane that had the advantage from the start. 1 K4 is more than a match for a squadron of NOE P-47s. I even got some squaddies to join in with the defense.
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Never underestimate the power of Hitech to influence the masses in his small universe over time. Personaly I beleive it's time again. Frighteningly my give a woot value is so low just about any change by him will be something to get excited about. Especially if it makes all of the masses uncomfortable and have to learn something new. Or even remember something old.
At least we will have to act clever for awhile untill we figure how to game it into the lowest common denominator while cycling back to this point again. I've watched this a few times now. Hitech makes a significant change to the game. We go through the learning and whining process along with Hitech making subsiquent tweeks while listening to the whines increase or decrease. An ingroup discovers how to finess the change to their advantage. A year or two later everyone is bored and we have more fun attacking each other here in the forum than being bored chasing around the group of players who figured out how to leverage the last social engineering change to their advantage.
Let everyone in every country see everybody else anywhere on the map for awhile. The last time the radar circles overlapped you could see everybody upping off the end of the runway. There was alot of fighting in the arena and epic whining on this forum. But, for awhile you could hunt people down and have at them before they hid in the localisation nature of dar and avoided having to fight for their spoils.
In Hitech's Empire sometimes the Lions are in acendancy and sometime the Lambs are. Right now the Lambs do rule while the Lions starve and get bored. I've seen Lions lately declaire themselves nonplayers. A war game needs both Lions, Lambs and rousing good uncertain terror in between. Our current hoard seems to have definantly removed the uncertanty. Eliminated the terror uncertainty produces. While mastering the techniques of end running the lions before any massive war like responses take place to reduce their own chances of failure. No downsides most of the time if you just avoid the Lions who of late have gotten apathetic about chasing down 30-40 players who don't want to fight in the first place. A well oiled, effortless, almost infinantly reproducable win. Hitech should just give everyone the #1 rank standing and 5000 perk points for simply logging into the arena at this point if thats our game for now on.
I think it's time again to shake this sand box up and throw a wrench in the well oiled complacency and watch the antpile scramble. Players won't do it themsleves even if you pay them to change. But, if it's done to them, they will step out of their comfort zones for a time and ingeniously adapt untill they can beat or whine the new change into comfortable submission. The adaptation to a change stage has generated some of the best times in this game over the years. And some of the loudest and epic whining too. Ear plugs...........get your era plugs...all colors and sizes...get your ear plugs.....
Bustr post....
Eye plugs........get your eye plugs...all colors and sizes...get your eye plugs.
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"And if we manage to do a breakthrough here, we may get into position to launch and offensive to Berlin next spring!"
"Screw that, the Germans will expect us there. Let's just grab 2 bases in Norway, 2 more in Sicily, one in France and we will get the reset."
Later:
System: Négligeable-sur-mer has been captured by the Allies. The Allies have won the war! Europe will change in 4 minutes.
German Country Chat: That's what we get for furballing over Berlin!
brilliant :D
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Bustr post....
Eye plugs........get your eye plugs...all colors and sizes...get your eye plugs.
TheAssi,
Don't let it be said that I don't "Feel the Pain" of the masses.
TheAssi translated version: Hope and Change in 2012.
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:rolleyes:
No one takes me serious as I preach the gospel. "Base defense is TOO EASY." Kill one troop and you end a capture. To see the stalemate that has inflicted on game play, all one has to do is sit through a couple of weeks of Trinity map. The result of years of "training" through failed base capture attempts, have provided the "players" with the alternative: ie. hording. If you want a base, then you take it, by taking away any chance of the enemy killing a "single" troop.
Assuming that somewhat equal numbers are in play and their collective stradegy is to win the war, then only the team with the most efficient base captures wins. What would happen if a map the size of Trinity needed less troops to enter the maproom? Or, if downtimes were longer forcing defenders to travel longer distances (no more sitting in the tower window, waiting for the goon to appear and sprinting to the maproom in a La7 to strafe down 1 paratrooper)? How about any of hundreds of ideas that change the game play, so that targets are not the planes sitting on the runway attempting to defend, but rather those in the air about to assist in cutting down on the opposing country's ability to make war?
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It was a lot of fun flying light in the mismatched plane that had the advantage from the start. 1 K4 is more than a match for a squadron of NOE P-47s. I even got some squaddies to join in with the defense.
Kinda feels good don't it? Should do it more often, luckily for you the horde didnt all just bail...
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according to the first post the op wants less hording but wants a mission to take a base. missions=numbers=crybabys on the recieving end!
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Why try to control how many up at one base?
Why try to control the Hords?
When you can up a 262 and land 10-15 kills each sorties for the next 4 hours of hording. :rolleyes:
Seriously though ppl cmon Hording is Hording get over it already its always going to happen and will never change either adapt or whine. :salute
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all one has to do is sit through a couple of weeks of Trinity map.
The reason Trinity lingers like a festering wound isn't because base capture is too easy or too difficult. It is designed around a front that has mountains to separate the countries and is far too large for game play during the off hours.
If what you typed was true, all maps would take a long time to reset, but the MA can go through a small map in just a few hours.
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Found my numbers again.
Last summer I tracked the map cycle in LW for 3 months.
On average, a map lasted 2 days before being reset. If you split it by type, small maps lasted a day and large maps about 4 days. Trinity had an average up time of 5.4 days each time it was on.
For "the majority of time we play on Trinity": In 95 days, this map was up 5 times with 27 days total (Compello 18 days, Tagma 11 days, Ozkansas 6 days)
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The reason Trinity lingers like a festering wound isn't because base capture is too easy or too difficult. It is designed around a front that has mountains to separate the countries and is far too large for game play during the off hours.
If what you typed was true, all maps would take a long time to reset, but the MA can go through a small map in just a few hours.
Well, sort of.... Trinity just magnifies the difficulties in offensive land grab to win the war. This MISCONCEPTION is that base capture is challenging or that it is kept from 1 or 2 players effecting a whole country. The truth is, 1 or 2 players do drastically effect the outcome through mission planning or hording as it is referred to in this thread. As everyone will agree, once you have overwhelmed the defense with brute force, the challenge is gone.
So, what happens.... radar becomes more visible, ground vehicles become less visible, we keep seeing more and more ground guns added to the fields. Hey, I enjoy all of these changes as much as the next guy..... but let's be real, these are advantages to defense (although vehicle icon range does have a lesser advantage to offensive players).
In Aces High, I would prefer to find targets in the air.... not the runways. Sure it is fun piling up kills on helpless kittens wandering onto the runways, but not why I have spent time and invested in dollars to learn how to fly a cartoon plane.
Every once in a blue moon we have a fun furball somewhere, or squads have become creative in finding ways to envoke a challenge. MA is just not everyone's cup of tea. It certainly would not be mine, if it weren't for a good group of friends.
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Found my numbers again.
Last summer I tracked the map cycle in LW for 3 months.
On average, a map lasted 2 days before being reset. If you split it by type, small maps lasted a day and large maps about 4 days. Trinity had an average up time of 5.4 days each time it was on.
For "the majority of time we play on Trinity": In 95 days, this map was up 5 times with 27 days total (Compello 18 days, Tagma 11 days, Ozkansas 6 days)
Thanks Lusche,
I appreciate that information and your time spent to share these stats.
I suppose that I have a slightly different take on some aspects because I have an upside down work schedule that allows me to play some prime time and some off hours. Offensive game play in off hours seems like the game is designed for "hands off" base capture. There is the possibility for "milkrunning" maps if field capture were too easy (I don't really care).
I don't care for milkrun defense because in the last 3 days there have probably been about 6 maps reset (if not more). The more that you try and prevent something from happening the better folks become at defeating your stradegy. After all, isn't that how modern warfare has developed?
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according to the first post the op wants less hording but wants a mission to take a base. missions=numbers=crybabys on the recieving end!
....and this is why we have hordes. People can't think beyond that narrow idea of "you need numbers to take bases". No, you need SKILL to take bases. When they don't have skill, they fall back on numbers. And why not, after all getting 30-40 guys to join your horde is much easier and quicker than learning how to use tactics and strategies to force the opposing team to get out maneuvered, or out played.
Why try to control how many up at one base?
Why try to control the Hords?
When you can up a 262 and land 10-15 kills each sorties for the next 4 hours of hording. :rolleyes:
Seriously though ppl cmon Hording is Hording get over it already its always going to happen and will never change either adapt or whine. :salute
Spoken like a true "picker". If people only wanted to rack up kills on their score broad sure that might be "fun", but what about people who enjoy the challenge of beating another player head to head, or maybe two or three? "Fights" are harder and harder to find. Now a days you spend all your time trying to drag a player or two from the horde to have a fight. Even that is getting rare as those in the horde spend their time trying to dive bomb a target and then vulch until they capture the base or the hangers get dropped.
Well, sort of.... Trinity just magnifies the difficulties in offensive land grab to win the war. This MISCONCEPTION is that base capture is challenging or that it is kept from 1 or 2 players effecting a whole country. The truth is, 1 or 2 players do drastically effect the outcome through mission planning or hording as it is referred to in this thread. As everyone will agree, once you have overwhelmed the defense with brute force, the challenge is gone.
So, what happens.... radar becomes more visible, ground vehicles become less visible, we keep seeing more and more ground guns added to the fields. Hey, I enjoy all of these changes as much as the next guy..... but let's be real, these are advantages to defense (although vehicle icon range does have a lesser advantage to offensive players).
In Aces High, I would prefer to find targets in the air.... not the runways. Sure it is fun piling up kills on helpless kittens wandering onto the runways, but not why I have spent time and invested in dollars to learn how to fly a cartoon plane.
Every once in a blue moon we have a fun furball somewhere, or squads have become creative in finding ways to envoke a challenge. MA is just not everyone's cup of tea. It certainly would not be mine, if it weren't for a good group of friends.
The problem isn't the maps. Trinity in the old days was fun and could be reset as easy as the other maps. The difference is the "skill-less" hordes. There is no defense against the horde. Once it gets started it will roll along until the horde leaders log or the map is won. Defense doesn't have enough warning to get together any type of organized defense. So in stead like I saw this past weekend you have 40 players attacking at 5k, half of them in B17 formations flying in from "40" miles out. That's 80 planes attacking in under ten minutes from lift off to bombs hitting the ground. Defense was 8 guys, The smart thing to do would be to hunt for goons in LA's, heck it's the ONLY thing to do. I don't care how good you are, nobody is taking down 10 guys each and surviving in that mess.
Horde game play is here to stay until HTC does something about it. The reason is, it is far easier to join a horde than it is to learn skills. A couple guys in pony's can protect a goon from La's if they are skill enough to work together. Add in that you could use tactics and have goons coming from a number of "odd" directions (instead of on a strait line from the attacking base :rolleyes: ), or even an M3 or two and you have even a better chance. Until the "skill-less" are forced to gain some skills they will count on numbers instead.
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Place CV style puffy ack around towns and triple the numbers. At least the hoard will have to stay below 3k to get near the town. Defenders will be able to BnZ them with impunity. Then if they bring their own mobile ack barge inshore everyone has to stay below 3k.
Maybe it's time to increase the town percentage down for white flag to 30-100% and shorten the ack and building respawn time. Then tack on 1-2 required captured feilds to reset the map. Or those 1-2 required feilds have the additional ack and modified times. My reasoning for the modified times on 1-2 key feilds is this being a game, the hoards are being used to circumvent having to fight for an objective by weight of shear numbers. Not to pick a fight to draw up defenders to play with as part of the reward of ultimatly taking the objective.
The WW2 Operation Corkscrew, the capture of Pantelleria was one of the first authentic aircraft hoarding operations in the world. Over 10 days 14,000 bombs were dropped on the island. Our hoarding is not without precidence. But, in the real WW2 men died and it was understandable trying methods to save lives while attempting to shorten the war.
A polar difference from our established near nightly hoard is when some of the older established squads from thier country decide to roll feilds once in awhile. The fights are vicious due to the veterens involved and the coordinated timing and delivery of assets against the objective leaves littel room to make mistakes while defending. It's as adrenalin pumping and white knuckle as randomly getting into a 1vs 1 with no interuption against a hot vet who knows what he's doing. We simply don't see as much activity by older squads in hoard numbers anymore as our ever constant near nightly RollemHarry Hoard.
Every few years Hitech has tweeked the game in minor and major ways, ostensibly to influence player motivation and subsiquent activity methods to achive in game goals. In each instance these were either in response to obvious community degenerative issues or seemingly capricious, resulting in at least one large ingroup being deprived of their game dominance. The resulting howling in this forum in itself was often worth the short adaptation period inconvienence of the Hitech induced change.
At the moment we seem too stable and complacent.
Our complaints are more ritualistc now as if a requirement to belch during a meal to compliment the host. This game is not a contest to see who can complain the loudest or most. Or a contest to see who can cause the most trouble in the forum while escaping official sensure. At the moment these activities have more passion in them than what takes place in the Arena.
The more realistic town does require a hoard to efficiently take it down opposed to the old style town that 3 players late at night could drop with 2-110 and NOE a goon to drop troops. Or one box of Lancs in one pass and a goon. We were complacent and stable back then complaining about many of the same issues. Hitech invariably would tweek something making us uncomfortable while we adapted. But, during that adaptation period we would change for awhile. We took risks and fought more outside of being part of comfortable groups while we attempted to game the change and become comfortable again.
I for one would vote for some Hitech induced game discomfort about now. At least the forum complaints would have some new life to them.
Putting more defences is the root cause of bigger missions to begin with.
Stick all the defencive tools in you like.
Guess what the gaggle will be bigger again.
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Why try to control how many up at one base?
Why try to control the Hords?
When you can up a 262 and land 10-15 kills each sorties for the next 4 hours of hording. :rolleyes:
Seriously though ppl cmon Hording is Hording get over it already its always going to happen and will never change either adapt or whine. :salute
^^^ THIS ^^^
and
1 Don't sweat the small stuff
2 It's all small stuff
(My fathers last advice to me before he died)
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In Aces High, I would prefer to find targets in the air.... not the runways. Sure it is fun piling up kills on helpless kittens wandering onto the runways, but not why I have spent time and invested in dollars to learn how to fly a cartoon plane.
too much manned acks, too much gvs, the air game is rather stale nowadays.
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too much gvs
GV usage is in the same order of magnitude as 5 or 10 years ago...
In 2003 players spent about 20% of their time in GV's, last year it was 21%. :old:
:bolt:
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I don't think it would work very well -1
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GV usage is in the same order of magnitude as 5 or 10 years ago...
In 2003 players spent about 20% of their time in GV's, last year it was 21%. :old:
:bolt:
Leave it to Lusche to destroy a perfectly good argument with his silly facts. :neener:
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Leave it to Lusche to destroy a perfectly good argument with his silly facts. :neener:
I still have the perception card!
From what I see there is too much GV/ack 'action'.
How many times you beat 5 enemy fighters nowhere near their ack, only to find out they didn't re-up to challenge you and are instead trying a desperate 37/88mm kill from miles away.
How many times you log in, there is not a single darbar at your borders, only a huge boring spawn camp going on :cry
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I still have the perception card!
Dang! :furious
How many times you log in, there is not a single darbar at your borders, only a huge boring spawn camp going on :cry
Each time Trinity is on and I'm in the western Country :(
But that's not due to being more GV in game, or players tanking more (as shown earlier), but because of that particular map layout.
And I see also maps, which don't have much GV action at all. So it all depends on when and where you are online, but in the end nothing much has happened to overall GV usage (as depicted by hours played) over the last 10 years. Though since the new GV control system was introduced, numbers did went up, but "only" to like 24% so far. (Which by the way is particular fascinating as I was told on the BBS as well as in game that "all the tankers have left" and "hardly anyone drives GV these days" just because of the new system :D)
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Putting more defences is the root cause of bigger missions to begin with.
Stick all the defencive tools in you like.
Guess what the gaggle will be bigger again.
Amen...... Lyric and I must be the only members of this particular faith :angel:
Edited for epiphany: Maybe the Me410 will single handedly take down a town, kill the ack ack, and land ten troops at the maproom (..... if flown by Chuck Norris)
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I have a film I took Saturday that shows the bish taking a45. There were so many that they don't show.up in the film. There was 40-48 of them with about 20 in b17s for a grand total of 80+ planes against 8 defenders.
Yup sure was fun! :rolleyes:
So when rook and nits take a base with over whelming numbers
what do you call it? :rolleyes:
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unlimited access to rides at any base + human tendancy to find safety in packs = hordes.
to balance one you must limit/alter the other.
Any other change just modifies game play without affecting horde tendancy. Make capture easier the Horde will capture more easily, make it harder, and the horde will capture with greater difficulty...... but its still a horde and regardless of suicidal lemming tendancies it will dominate the local game play.
Some can "farm" it, others fall foul of it depending upon where they get their game play enjoyment. Others it seems just like to talk about it.
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too much manned acks, too much gvs, the air game is rather stale nowadays.
How do manned acks make the air game 'stale'? If anything, it cuts down a bit on vulching...
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So when rook and nits take a base with over whelming numbers
what do you call it? :rolleyes:
Wow, a bit defensive there. I'll bet that if you told me your in game name that I would find you on the roster in that film.
In this case I was speaking of a specific mission I witnessed, but to answer your question they would be called hordes even if they are knight or rook. Make you feel better?
I have said it a.hundred times all sides have hordes.
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I have read the original post and at least agree with bringing the zone strats back, the one location of strats was a good idea but in reality turned out to be bad, imo.
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How do manned acks make the air game 'stale'? If anything, it cuts down a bit on vulching...
If these players in the ack grabbed a plane instead of a gun we could have a fight. I agree it's a tool against vulching, but the tendency seems to get an ack gun when its not particularly needed.
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How do manned acks make the air game 'stale'? If anything, it cuts down a bit on vulching...
I wouldn't say 'stale' partictularly, as the air game doesn't seem to have changed materially much since 2000. However, what subjectively, unscientifically seems to me to happen at times is that the majority of people are GVing or gunning, not flying.
Last night I logged in for a bit around 10:00 EST and on all fronts, there was almost nothing in the air. I watched the dar for around 15 minutes, couldn't find a single decent sized fight, my rough estimation of planes in the air showing on dar would be at best 15-20 per front, spread out over many, many sectors, generally. ~300 people on, I'd guesstimate no more than 100 planes in the air.
Maybe there was a vast NOE horde going somewhere during that time period, but I don't think it likely.
I've noticed something else happen a fair bit lately, now whether it happens more lately or I just noticed it happen more lately is up for debate.
A bunch of aircraft take a run at a base. The stars align, and enough people up to defend that the air attack gets stopped. Some damage to the town, some damage to the field. About 10% of the number of attacking aircraft reup, and a bunch of GVs appear to press the attack.
*shrug* It's not a terrible idea, but it kind of feels like another evolution of avoiding combat because not that many people who want to defend in the air are all that interested in bombing GVs or GVing.
Wiley.
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Again: Put in a tank town on every map just like on ndisle or maps with similar tank towns.
3 large airfields
3 VH
Let the base takers do their crap somewhere else, let the guys who want to dogfight and furball do it in TT. The fields are porked 24/7 in TT anyway, so the GVs only have to fear dedicated ground attack planes, and if those got through to them, then they can blame their air cover.
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....and this is why we have hordes. People can't think beyond that narrow idea of "you need numbers to take bases". No, you need SKILL to take bases. When they don't have skill, they fall back on numbers. And why not, after all getting 30-40 guys to join your horde is much easier and quicker than learning how to use tactics and strategies to force the opposing team to get out maneuvered, or out played.
Spoken like a true "picker". If people only wanted to rack up kills on their score broad sure that might be "fun", but what about people who enjoy the challenge of beating another player head to head, or maybe two or three? "Fights" are harder and harder to find. Now a days you spend all your time trying to drag a player or two from the horde to have a fight. Even that is getting rare as those in the horde spend their time trying to dive bomb a target and then vulch until they capture the base or the hangers get dropped.
The problem isn't the maps. Trinity in the old days was fun and could be reset as easy as the other maps. The difference is the "skill-less" hordes. There is no defense against the horde. Once it gets started it will roll along until the horde leaders log or the map is won. Defense doesn't have enough warning to get together any type of organized defense. So in stead like I saw this past weekend you have 40 players attacking at 5k, half of them in B17 formations flying in from "40" miles out. That's 80 planes attacking in under ten minutes from lift off to bombs hitting the ground. Defense was 8 guys, The smart thing to do would be to hunt for goons in LA's, heck it's the ONLY thing to do. I don't care how good you are, nobody is taking down 10 guys each and surviving in that mess.
Horde game play is here to stay until HTC does something about it. The reason is, it is far easier to join a horde than it is to learn skills. A couple guys in pony's can protect a goon from La's if they are skill enough to work together. Add in that you could use tactics and have goons coming from a number of "odd" directions (instead of on a strait line from the attacking base :rolleyes: ), or even an M3 or two and you have even a better chance. Until the "skill-less" are forced to gain some skills they will count on numbers instead.
Spoken like a true veteran baby seal, This is not the DA if you go into the MA looking for 1v1 fights then you have proven my point of you being one of the most gullible lemmings in the AH sky.
You say its the fight you are looking for well in my opinion nothing gets my blood pumping more than a 2v1 or 3v1 maybe you are not up to that level yet. :D
On a more serious note I have watched you fight/fly and I must say I am not surprised how you responded to my post because it was directed at folk like you.
EDIT: I am always up for some 1v1s in the DA if you are feeling lucky :)
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unlimited access to rides at any base + human tendancy to find safety in packs = hordes.
to balance one you must limit/alter the other.
Any other change just modifies game play without affecting horde tendancy. Make capture easier the Horde will capture more easily, make it harder, and the horde will capture with greater difficulty...... but its still a horde and regardless of suicidal lemming tendancies it will dominate the local game play.
Some can "farm" it, others fall foul of it depending upon where they get their game play enjoyment. Others it seems just like to talk about it.
What I have commented on quite a bit has been that the changes implemented in game play have been 98 percent defensive. No need to call those who have found a way to defeat such defenses names.
Again I beg of anyone to follow this logic: When base capture (easier) meets, close to even odds for defense, the hording of resourses to capture 1 or 2 bases will take away from the defense of a number of bases, that vulnerability would be exploited. The result would be more fights with smaller numbers spread throughout the map (period).
I really don't think that after having a crap day at work, coming home and having a crap day at play is what I signed up for. At one time it was nice to look at a map and see several different fights to choose from. It was even nicer to have a small group of several players easily capture a field.
As for the stats, you will find that I have far less troop carrier trips as time goes on. I salute those that are still willing. :salute
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Spoken like a true veteran baby seal, This is not the DA if you go into the MA looking for 1v1 fights then you have proven my point of you being one of the most gullible lemmings in the AH sky.
You say its the fight you are looking for well in my opinion nothing gets my blood pumping more than a 2v1 or 3v1 maybe you are not up to that level yet. :D
On a more serious note I have watched you fight/fly and I must say I am not surprised how you responded to my post because it was directed at folk like you.
EDIT: I am always up for some 1v1s in the DA if you are feeling lucky :)
:rofl :rofl :rofl
I believe Fugi prefers 1v1, 1v2 maybe even 1v3. I can see how you get excited and "blood pumping" by having a 2v1, 3v1 advantage but I'm quite sure Fugi doesn't roll that way :aok
Scalping at the edge of an enemy base with alt and #s isn't how Fugi rolls!!
You have your style, Fugi has his!!!! :rock :bolt:
JUGgler
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Ok, my two cent's worth, from a guy who only flies a few hours on weekends:
:old:
Hitech has produced an online game that lets us come into an imaginary world and have some fun. Because the game play is generally unstructured, the game is what we make of it. The best way to make it better, IMO, is for the players as a community to make the changes themselves. The best way to do this, IMO, is through the squads. Let the squad leaders lead the charge in making things more organized.
I have flown with Devil Dogs a couple of times. Last weekend was a prime example. What many would see as a horde, was actually a well planned, well executed, series of raids. At one point, there was another group that was also rolling bases, and the two groups actually coordinated their efforts!
:O
To oppose something like this, a squad, or two, could spot the advance, and try to intercept the next raid. Then we would really have a fight.
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Ok, now another two cent's worth.
When it come right down to it, a lot of these issues come up because there is no central command on each team. We are given the tools, and left to our own devices to make it fun. Some find fun in taking bases. Some find fun in furballing. Some find fun in one v. one duels. I find fun in all of the above. Unless you want someone telling you where to go, and what to do, like in a real war, make your own fun in our make-believe war.
:airplane: :airplane: :airplane:
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I love the hords....game would be quite boring without them. :aok
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:rofl :rofl :rofl
I believe Fugi prefers 1v1, 1v2 maybe even 1v3. I can see how you get excited and "blood pumping" by having a 2v1, 3v1 advantage but I'm quite sure Fugi doesn't roll that way :aok
Scalping at the edge of an enemy base with alt and #s isn't how Fugi rolls!!
You have your style, Fugi has his!!!! :rock :bolt:
JUGgler
Speaking of lemmings. :rolleyes:
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Spoken like a true veteran baby seal, This is not the DA if you go into the MA looking for 1v1 fights then you have proven my point of you being one of the most gullible lemmings in the AH sky.
You say its the fight you are looking for well in my opinion nothing gets my blood pumping more than a 2v1 or 3v1 maybe you are not up to that level yet. :D
On a more serious note I have watched you fight/fly and I must say I am not surprised how you responded to my post because it was directed at folk like you.
EDIT: I am always up for some 1v1s in the DA if you are feeling lucky :)
I'm sorry, I may have stepped out of bounds with my comment. While I'm far from being a "baby seal" I know I'm not a "super stud" like you. I do know my place in the game and I am in secure enough in my "manhood" that I don't have to post how many kills I could get in four hours of picking like you can. While I'm sure you could be me more often than I could beat you in this "game" (I am honored that you follow me around and watch me fly btw :rock )it wouldn't bother me to lose to you as much as it would bother you to lose to me. So to save you any possible aggravation or embarrassment YOU WIN! You are the best cartoon fighter pilot. :aok Maybe someone will buy you a coffee <S>
Be that as it may, the OP was about hordes and possible suggestions for getting them under control.
What I have commented on quite a bit has been that the changes implemented in game play have been 98 percent defensive. No need to call those who have found a way to defeat such defenses names.
Again I beg of anyone to follow this logic: When base capture (easier) meets, close to even odds for defense, the hording of resourses to capture 1 or 2 bases will take away from the defense of a number of bases, that vulnerability would be exploited. The result would be more fights with smaller numbers spread throughout the map (period).
I really don't think that after having a crap day at work, coming home and having a crap day at play is what I signed up for. At one time it was nice to look at a map and see several different fights to choose from. It was even nicer to have a small group of several players easily capture a field.
As for the stats, you will find that I have far less troop carrier trips as time goes on. I salute those that are still willing. :salute
Making base capture easier is just going to get the maps reset faster. It will be a race to see which horde can capture the right number of bases needed to win the war first.
Ok, my two cent's worth, from a guy who only flies a few hours on weekends:
:old:
Hitech has produced an online game that lets us come into an imaginary world and have some fun. Because the game play is generally unstructured, the game is what we make of it. The best way to make it better, IMO, is for the players as a community to make the changes themselves. The best way to do this, IMO, is through the squads. Let the squad leaders lead the charge in making things more organized.
I have flown with Devil Dogs a couple of times. Last weekend was a prime example. What many would see as a horde, was actually a well planned, well executed, series of raids. At one point, there was another group that was also rolling bases, and the two groups actually coordinated their efforts!
:O
To oppose something like this, a squad, or two, could spot the advance, and try to intercept the next raid. Then we would really have a fight.
The problem is the Squadleaders of some of these mega squad are the one fostering this type of game play. They know they need as many people as they can get so encourage everyone to call out and join the mission.
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Just calling you out for what you really are Fugitive. :aok
EDIT: So much for all that fight in you eh?
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I love the hords....game would be quite boring without them. :aok
Dammit Ink dont encourage them! :rofl
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Just calling you out for what you really are Fugitive. :aok
EDIT: So much for all that fight in you eh?
Yup, your the man! Congrats ! :rolleyes:
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Speaking of lemmings. :rolleyes:
Hmm, I see your fragile ego still precedes you.
Here at AOM we don't call that ego, we call it "cameltoe" :aok
BTW yours is poking out :O
JUGgler
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Dammit Ink dont encourage them! :rofl
:uhoh
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Be that as it may, the OP was about hordes and possible suggestions for getting them under control.
Making base capture easier is just going to get the maps reset faster. It will be a race to see which horde can capture the right number of bases needed to win the war first.
The problem is the Squadleaders of some of these mega squad are the one fostering this type of game play. They know they need as many people as they can get so encourage everyone to call out and join the mission.
You just made the majority of my points for me. Your conclusion is just different ( I want to say wrong ;) ). In a race who do you think will win? The guys successfully capturing multiple bases or the guys huddled in one area of the map? Maybe we need to ask that nursery rhyme turtle. In this race I would place my bets on experience and skill. :rock
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You just made the majority of my points for me. Your conclusion is just different ( I want to say wrong ;) ). In a race who do you think will win? The guys successfully capturing multiple bases or the guys huddled in one area of the map? Maybe we need to ask that nursery rhyme turtle. In this race I would place my bets on experience and skill. :rock
No I mean it as in the text buffer will have more base capture system messages than chatting. The hordes won't even land, they will continue on until they run out of people or bases. With the ease of capture, they won't even have to drop hangers as they roll through so those that do get shot down/crash will just up from the newly captured base and continue with the horde.
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The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. It would not be as efficient to go through other bases, especially if it only took a few of you to get the job done. Who wins the race?? Multiple ongoing base captures or one or two mobs taking turns from one base to the other.....
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The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. It would not be as efficient to go through other bases, especially if it only took a few of you to get the job done. Who wins the race?? Multiple ongoing base captures or one or two mobs taking turns from one base to the other.....
That's the point tho, the horde won't change! They bring 30-40 guys to kill a base where they only need 20. If they don't split their numbers now why would they if you made base captures easier? They will just roll along in a line of bases kinda like you see when there are low numbers and you see a line of GV bases get captured.
The only thing that is going to break up the horde is a game mechanic that forces them apart (zone eny, zone population numbers tied to base capture percentages, and such), or something that makes it worth while to players to team up and defend.
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Fugi,
I take an oath that this will be my last post to explain how I believe easier base capture may help to reduce hordes. :pray
Please take a moment to ponder the possibility that hordes:
- 1) may become a less effective (efficient) method for land grab,
- 2) may become offset by equal or even lesser number of players taking equal or greater volume of bases over a period of time,
- 3) may still exist, but may become smaller in size as players again discover the joys of regularly and successfully gaining territory with reasonable numbers instead, and
- 4) exist today in order to facilitate the advantage it has with the present game play objectives to win the war
A look at what happened when HTC first rolled the town percentage to 50%. The largest complaint they had was that town could be ready with only a couple of players working the town and one bringing troops....... DUH!!!!!!!! The change came in version 2.22 (<50%) Dec. 13, 2010 - and was out in version 2.23 (>75%) Feb. 22, 2011.
Off the top of my head (Disclaimer I am no Snailman) I selected squads to compare the number of field captures during tours (Tour 131- 133) prior to, and after the changes were instituted.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/2chilli_photos/quickdirty.png)
Note to Lusche: I :headscratch: haven't a clue where to find actual data on # of map resets or even # of bases captured total (past looking at all stats of each individual squad and manually adding them). Has HTC released such information that we can query?
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Note to Lusche: I :headscratch: haven't a clue where to find actual data on # of map resets or even # of bases captured total (past looking at all stats of each individual squad and manually adding them). Has HTC released such information that we can query?
There is no data on map resets to be found anywhere. When I was making my map rotation survey, I was logging in several times each 24 hours for 95 days to check on the state of affairs.
The number of scored base captures can indeed only be found by adding up the individual base captures of every player in a given arena during a given tour. To do that for whole squads is more difficult, as memebrships are fluctuating and you can't always tell for sure who whas on a squad's roster last tour, not to speak of 12 tours ago...
One possible way to get some more data on map resets and base captures per country would be to sit in the tower with film rolling... 24/7 for a whole month. You could then extract the base capture data from the films (easy to do.) You could then chart base captures & resets by county. Of course you should be on when a reset happens, so that you can relog immediately...
:x
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Fugi,
I take an oath that this will be my last post to explain how I believe easier base capture may help to reduce hordes. :pray
Please take a moment to ponder the possibility that hordes:
- 1) may become a less effective (efficient) method for land grab,
- 2) may become offset by equal or even lesser number of players taking equal or greater volume of bases over a period of time,
- 3) may still exist, but may become smaller in size as players again discover the joys of regularly and successfully gaining territory with reasonable numbers instead, and
- 4) exist today in order to facilitate the advantage it has with the present game play objectives to win the war
A look at what happened when HTC first rolled the town percentage to 50%. The largest complaint they had was that town could be ready with only a couple of players working the town and one bringing troops....... DUH!!!!!!!! The change came in version 2.22 (<50%) Dec. 13, 2010 - and was out in version 2.23 (>75%) Feb. 22, 2011.
Off the top of my head (Disclaimer I am no Snailman) I selected squads to compare the number of field captures during tours (Tour 131- 133) prior to, and after the changes were instituted.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/2chilli_photos/quickdirty.png)
Note to Lusche: I :headscratch: haven't a clue where to find actual data on # of map resets or even # of bases captured total (past looking at all stats of each individual squad and manually adding them). Has HTC released such information that we can query?
I understand what your saying, but I'm a bit of a realist. I believe that the only way the horde will be broken up is by HTC making it worst game play for horders than when not in a horde. As a rule, players will jump on the "winning team" band wagon just to be part of the "winning" even if they contribute very little to it. It makes them feel like they are helping. So as a group grabs a base, more will join until it is a horde and over kill on which ever base they are pointed at. It won't matter how few you really need to capture the base, they will just roll along.
When the base capture was at 50% you saw the capture messages scroll by as fast as the text. And we still had hordes.
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Without hordes I have nothing to pad my score with, after all 262s are cheap.