Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Klam on May 14, 2012, 05:33:13 PM
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Had some good fights tonight with lots of players. One of them got me thinking about what we do in game to improve our postion vs what the real pilots would have done.
A guy in a 109g14 fought my 109f4.....we had some good fights but I noticed he was turning his engine of when we scissored and danced. It's not a common tactic I've come across, although I have seen it before.
Would a real pilot do this? Having never flown anything but sim' birds I wouldn't know how hard it was to do this in combat.
We was pretty even on fights and I had fun. Was just curios
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Had some good fights tonight with lots of players. One of them got me thinking about what we do in game to improve our postion vs what the real pilots would have done.
A guy in a 109g14 fought my 109f4.....we had some good fights but I noticed he was turning his engine of when we scissored and danced. It's not a common tactic I've come across, although I have seen it before.
Would a real pilot do this? Having never flown anything but sim' birds I wouldn't know how hard it was to do this in combat.
We was pretty even on fights and I had fun. Was just curios
NO!
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:noid :noid :noid Sounds like AirJer. He always fights like that. :airplane: :neener: :airplane: :neener:
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There are a few things that happen in this game I highly doubt would happen in real life airplane combat.
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It also doesn't help in AH. The effect he thinks he is getting is the same he'd get but throttling back to zero.
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Gamey flying on his part.
Engine restart should have a few seconds of delay before power is regenerated, just to prevent or reduce that type of mess.
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Had some good fights tonight with lots of players. One of them got me thinking about what we do in game to improve our postion vs what the real pilots would have done.
A guy in a 109g14 fought my 109f4.....we had some good fights but I noticed he was turning his engine of when we scissored and danced. It's not a common tactic I've come across, although I have seen it before.
Would a real pilot do this? Having never flown anything but sim' birds I wouldn't know how hard it was to do this in combat.
We was pretty even on fights and I had fun. Was just curios
When you see someone turn on/off their engine in mid-fight, it's because they falsely believe that it will get them slower and make you over shoot in a rolling scissor or to make them turn tighter in a turn. It's an AH urban legend without any basis in fact. Count your blessings because you're about to enjoy an easy kill if the other guy starts with the engine cutting.
ack-ack
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The concept works quite well, but usually only against inexperienced pilots who can't instantly tell what it means. As mentioned before he should be cutting throttle as to not give up the goose to his little plan.
What it *definetly* doesn't work against, is those really focused-for-a-kill types who have the right speed at all times to avoid such situations, bunch of nerds; lulz :lol
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Same type think fish flop actually fool a veteran pilot.
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Had some good fights tonight with lots of players. One of them got me thinking about what we do in game to improve our postion vs what the real pilots would have done.
A guy in a 109g14 fought my 109f4.....we had some good fights but I noticed he was turning his engine of when we scissored and danced. It's not a common tactic I've come across, although I have seen it before.
Would a real pilot do this? Having never flown anything but sim' birds I wouldn't know how hard it was to do this in combat.
We was pretty even on fights and I had fun. Was just curios
nope.
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90% of things done in this game would put you in a body bag in real life :salute
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Maybe a piston pilot can check in on the subject, but air starting a jet engine is an exercise, much more involved than tapping the 'e' key.
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In flight school we would cut throttle to 0, to demonstrate an engine failure and then walk through the restart procedures, its not as simple, since you have to work fuel pump switches ect, and then risk flooding the engine mid air.
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1: no it would take probably closer if not more then a minute to restart the engine
2:only about 10% of the game is "realistic". 5% because airplanes fly. the other 5% being those airplanes existed in WWII
3:there was never a P51 Vs Spit16, 109 vs 190....yada yada yada
4:we dont have engine failures
5:we dont experience control surface lockups
6:we have an ammo counter
7:our guns dont jam
8:if your plane catches fire, it automatically goes boom. unlike some planes in WWII that could catch fire and still make it back, we are done after 5 seconds of being on fire.
9:the lack of objectives (strategic objectives)
10:ramming. In WWII only a few times did only a few pilots make it away (and especially with almost no damage like you see every day)
11:our fuel burns at twice the actual rate
12:we always have a trusty radio
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I've had lots of problems with that, I ALWAYS let the guy go when I see he is deadtick (unless I see it to late) and it cost me a few lives because they would turn it on and shoot at my back
no good deed goes unpunished :P
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I've had lots of problems with that, I ALWAYS let the guy go when I see he is deadtick (unless I see it to late) and it cost me a few lives because they would turn it on and shoot at my back
no good deed goes unpunished :P
ALWAYS kill deadstick pilots.
Helps 'em get back to the tower faster that way, saving them valuable gaming time.
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1: no it would take probably closer if not more then a minute to restart the engine
Utter balderdash.
I have had 3 engine outs in real life. One time it took about 1 sec to run the longest was maybe 1 - 3 secs after rolling back to right side up in the air plane.
The one that was do to lean mixture (how you would stop an engine for real) after spinner disintegration was instantaneous.
HiTech
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I know a few very good pilots who do that, and I do not understand why... Cutting your engine basically should scream to the guy youre fighting "MY ENGINES DEAD ROPE ME!!!" where you can cut throttle to 0 and get the same results, only your opponent won't know that you did. (unless very very experienced).... :headscratch: oh well.. Just my 2 cents :cheers:
:salute
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Utter balderdash.
I have had 3 engine outs in real life. One time it took about 1 sec to run the longest was maybe 1 - 3 secs after rolling back to right side up in the air plane.
The one that was do to lean mixture (how you would stop an engine for real) after spinner disintegration was instantaneous.
HiTech
What do you mean by spinner disintegration?
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I know a few very good pilots who do that, and I do not understand why... Cutting your engine basically should scream to the guy youre fighting "MY ENGINES DEAD ROPE ME!!!" where you can cut throttle to 0 and get the same results, only your opponent won't know that you did. (unless very very experienced).... :headscratch: oh well.. Just my 2 cents :cheers:
:salute
Boooo :bolt:
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1: no it would take probably closer if not more then a minute to restart the engine
Why? or how do you know this?
2:only about 10% of the game is "realistic". 5% because airplanes fly. the other 5% being those airplanes existed in WWII
Thats subjective
3:there was never a P51 Vs Spit16, 109 vs 190....yada yada yada
Your point?
4:we dont have engine failures
Yes we do. You mean mechanical failures, but that has little to do with this thread
5:we dont experience control surface lockups
Yes we do
6:we have an ammo counter
Yup, and for gameplay purposes it isnt awhole lot of fun to get into a fight with no or almost no ammo
7:our guns dont jam
Not much fun to have guns jam for no fault on the pilot. Refer to your #4 on engine failures.
8:if your plane catches fire, it automatically goes boom. unlike some planes in WWII that could catch fire and still make it back, we are done after 5 seconds of being on fire.
Very rarely if a plane caught fire it would be ok. Not to mention the fire we have ingame would be endgame for a real pilot. You're referencing something not modeled, and not accurate at all to how AH modeles a plane on fire.
9:the lack of objectives (strategic objectives)
We do have strategic objectives, the just do not affect the game as is very much.
10:ramming. In WWII only a few times did only a few pilots make it away (and especially with almost no damage like you see every day)
You do not understand how collisions work. Theres a likely several hundred other threads that discuss this
11:our fuel burns at twice the actual rate
For gameplay purposes since no one wants to fly for hours to find a fight. This balances a planes "attributes"
12:we always have a trusty radio
and who on earth wouldnt want that in a game?
None of that addresses anything related to shutting down an engine to attempt to gain a competitive advantage.
You're clearly listing "realism" VS "gameplay" which has little to do with the discussion, but also doesnt show at all WHY a pilot in AH would use this as a tactic.
I believe the following for engine shutoff as a dogfighting maneuver. (in AH)
1. The pilot believes that this is somehow going to give them a competitive advantage over just cutting the throttle.
2. The pilot may not have a throttle control as part of their setup, and thus use essential an "off" and "On control.
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Utter balderdash.
I have had 3 engine outs in real life. One time it took about 1 sec to run the longest was maybe 1 - 3 secs after rolling back to right side up in the air plane.
The one that was do to lean mixture (how you would stop an engine for real) after spinner disintegration was instantaneous.
HiTech
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmFJ08E0l1k
None of that addresses anything related to shutting down an engine to attempt to gain a competitive advantage.
You're clearly listing "realism" VS "gameplay" which has little to do with the discussion, but also doesnt show at all WHY a pilot in AH would use this as a tactic.
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yes that is what i was listing. I thought he was talking about the differences between real life and the game. so i listed stuff. my mistake for thinking something completly else
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None of that addresses anything related to shutting down an engine to attempt to gain a competitive advantage.
3:my point..gamey
4: really? cause my engine has never given out unless it was shot to hell, oil, or fuel leaked.
5: only in compressions
7: IRL, they did. just listing something that is gamey
8: bombers that caught fire never made it back..hmm? I've heard first hand accounts of planes that caught fire and they made it back. a P47 was jumped by a 190 ace and the 190 caught it on fire. the Jug spun out, while on fire. the pilot recovered and made it home..that is, after a fight. Never has a P47..much less any plane in AH EVER done that.
10: they obviously dont work as they did in RL. thats a given.
11: if we had a 1.00 FBR what makes you fly for 2 hours to find a fight? I never knew changing the FBR would also completly rearrange the maps.
12: true, yet another listing of gameyness
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11: if we had a 1.00 FBR what makes you fly for 2 hours to find a fight? I never knew changing the FBR would also completly rearrange the maps.
So you want spitfires and LA7s escorting bombers across the map?
4prop I guess you also want to fill out mountains of paperwork before you go fly, then wait on the ramp for 10 minutes for the oil to warm up. Then you can taxi to the runway and takeoff, and then throttle back to a lower power setting so as not to burn too much gas or destroy your engine. Then you can fly for several hours where you may or may not see another airplane.
Sounds like fun to me...not.
Now, my skyhawk is far from a WW2 airplane but here is a quick startup
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deYzldrA0ss
Engine is started in 2 seconds, literally.
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The concept works quite well, but usually only against inexperienced pilots who can't instantly tell what it means. As mentioned before he should be cutting throttle as to not give up the goose to his little plan.
What it *definetly* doesn't work against, is those really focused-for-a-kill types who have the right speed at all times to avoid such situations, bunch of nerds; lulz :lol
No, the concept doesn't work quite well at all. There is no benefit to shutting down your engine in a fight, just like the thought of using elevator trim to make your plane turn tighter. Both are AH urban legends that have been debunked many times through the years. But by all means continue to do it if I'm in the area, I'd love the free and easy kill.
ack-ack
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So you want spitfires and LA7s escorting bombers across the map?
sure. i dont care. they suck above 15k any ways
4prop I guess you also want to fill out mountains of paperwork before you go fly, then wait on the ramp for 10 minutes for the oil to warm up. Then you can taxi to the runway and takeoff, and then throttle back to a lower power setting so as not to burn too much gas or destroy your engine. Then you can fly for several hours where you may or may not see another airplane.
not all of that. I was just wanting a little more "realism" shall I say
Sounds like fun to me...not.
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Well all of that stuff is realism.
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Utter balderdash.
I have had 3 engine outs in real life. One time it took about 1 sec to run the longest was maybe 1 - 3 secs after rolling back to right side up in the air plane.
The one that was do to lean mixture (how you would stop an engine for real) after spinner disintegration was instantaneous.
HiTech
This was in a modern aircraft or a WWII bird?
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4prop,
The problem with limiting radio function or quality in the game is that it only affects players without squads. Those with squads would just bypass the whole thing and use something like Ventrilo.
You may object to it on realism grounds all you like, but there is nothing HTC can do about modern communications.
(You also may want to review your opinion of Spitfires above 15k. The Mk VIII and the Mk XVI do fine above 15k and the Mk IX and Mk XIV don't truly come into their own until 27k)
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4prop,
The problem with limiting radio function or quality in the game is that it only affects players without squads. Those with squads would just bypass the whole thing and use something like Ventrilo.
You may object to it on realism grounds all you like, but there is nothing HTC can do about modern communications.
(You also may want to review your opinion of Spitfires above 15k. The Mk VIII and the Mk XVI do fine above 15k and the Mk IX and Mk XIV don't truly come into their own until 27k)
Oh I complelty agree with the radio arguement. I wasnt saying against it. I'm very fine with our in game comms how they are.
all of my encounters (that I can remember) with spitfires above 15k has ended with the spitfire going down. I've only really had trouble with the 14 and 9 at that alt. My Jug eats them up and spitfires them outta the sky <dumb joke. Another thing is, how often does a spitfire even climb that high. I've only ran into a few. The only spitfires Ive ever flown are the MK.1,14,and 16. the only spitfire I've ever taken above 10k was the 14. shes a beaut with some air under her wings. but the amount of ammo and fuel capacity isnt very suitable for a long range escort (IMHO) Even if changed to 1.00 FBR I wouldnt ever consider any spitfire model a total threat. even a 5v1 at that alt I think a spitfire is outgunned and outranged by a P47 D25,D40,M,and N, P51D, TA152,190D..you know, most of you other high alt fighters. Also, how many spit dweebs have even been above the clouds? spitfires are a totally different plane above 15k. much less 20,25,and 30k. So the way I see it, a 1.00 FBR wouldnt do much "damage" to gameplay. as far as the LA7s up above 20k, i could walk faster.
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Not something a pilot would do in real life. If he is that far behind the curve it would only add to his workload. IMA.
If a pilot shut his engine off in real life all they would have to do is turn the magnetos back on. The prop still spins in most cases still spins the engine.
So you won't even have to crank the engine. I talking piston engines only.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmFJ08E0l1k
yes that is what i was listing.
You do realize those Jugs are not warmed up - yes it generally takes a Pratt and Whitney a few minutes to start up - however, not sure how this effects an aircraft already warmed up - and flown for countless hours - before its engines shut off, whats the restart procedure for that?
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You do realize those Jugs are not warmed up - yes it generally takes a Pratt and Whitney a few minutes to start up - however, not sure how this effects an aircraft already warmed up - and flown for countless hours - before its engines shut off, whats the restart procedure for that?
still looking.
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No, the concept doesn't work quite well at all. There is no benefit to shutting down your engine in a fight, just like the thought of using elevator trim to make your plane turn tighter. Both are AH urban legends that have been debunked many times through the years. But by all means continue to do it if I'm in the area, I'd love the free and easy kill.
ack-ack
Only benefit from cutting engine I found ingame was if your it a nasty spin and can't recover from just trying to correct with control inputs.
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If a pilot shut his engine off in real life all they would have to do is turn the magnetos back on. The prop still spins in most cases still spins the engine.
So you won't even have to crank the engine. I talking piston engines only.
Stupid to use the mags to shut the engine off. If you do that fuel will continue to be pumped into the engine as if it's running -- except the fuel won't be burned. A large part of it will accumulate in the exhaust system where, if you turn the mags back on and re-ignite the fire, you stand a very good chance of blowing the exhaust system apart. I once pooched a warm start on my 182 and caused a backfire on startup that cracked the welds on my muffler.
If you use the mixture to kill the engine all you have to do is go back to a rich setting to restart the engine -- most likely without any drama.
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I remember reading someone saying that in a certain airplane (don't remember which one) the counter-torque of the engine was so high that you could cause the whole plane to jerk sideways by turning the engine on or off. I found that very hard to believe.
Now if you ever see me turn my engines off and back on in flight, it means I was trying to retract my flaps, and hit the E key instead of the W key. :bhead
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Stupid to use the mags to shut the engine off. If you do that fuel will continue to be pumped into the engine as if it's running -- except the fuel won't be burned. A large part of it will accumulate in the exhaust system where, if you turn the mags back on and re-ignite the fire, you stand a very good chance of blowing the exhaust system apart. I once pooched a warm start on my 182 and caused a backfire on startup that cracked the welds on my muffler.
If you use the mixture to kill the engine all you have to do is go back to a rich setting to restart the engine -- most likely without any drama.
I watched someone do that exact thing once, except it was an early 210. It sounded like a gun shot.
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Oh I complelty agree with the radio arguement. I wasnt saying against it. I'm very fine with our in game comms how they are.
all of my encounters (that I can remember) with spitfires above 15k has ended with the spitfire going down. I've only really had trouble with the 14 and 9 at that alt. My Jug eats them up and spitfires them outta the sky <dumb joke. Another thing is, how often does a spitfire even climb that high. I've only ran into a few. The only spitfires Ive ever flown are the MK.1,14,and 16. the only spitfire I've ever taken above 10k was the 14. shes a beaut with some air under her wings. but the amount of ammo and fuel capacity isnt very suitable for a long range escort (IMHO) Even if changed to 1.00 FBR I wouldnt ever consider any spitfire model a total threat. even a 5v1 at that alt I think a spitfire is outgunned and outranged by a P47 D25,D40,M,and N, P51D, TA152,190D..you know, most of you other high alt fighters. Also, how many spit dweebs have even been above the clouds? spitfires are a totally different plane above 15k. much less 20,25,and 30k. So the way I see it, a 1.00 FBR wouldnt do much "damage" to gameplay. as far as the LA7s up above 20k, i could walk faster.
A Spit XVI at 18-20K still has a major climb advantage on a Jug. I drive them off their perches regularly although I'll admit the Jug has a speed advantage which you could use to run away from a Spit.
The Spit XIV is totally average below 23K and less than average from 18-23K as it suffers from a major deadband in the engine. At the alts you've flown it you've never even experienced what it can do and if you haven't been that high you haven't experienced what your Jugs can do either.
At 2 FBR any Spit with a sipper tank can easily fly the length of a map and the sipper provides for no real loss in performance. Do you really need to be able to fly further than that?
If you want to test your theories let's DA any Jug you want at 18K against a Spit XVI, full fuel, sipper on.
BTW engine cutting is an ineffective noob tactic.
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4prop, have you ever flown in a scenario? If not, I invite you to give it a try. There are ones that have P-47's in them at 25-30k, fighting against their historical opponents.
Here is a description of a frame from one of those:
http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201102_battleOverGermany/aar_frame1.htm
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4prop, have you ever flown in a scenario? If not, I invite you to give it a try. There are ones that have P-47's in them at 25-30k, fighting against their historical opponents.
Here is a description of a frame from one of those:
http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201102_battleOverGermany/aar_frame1.htm
yeah but you have to fly around for 1 or 2 hours before.
semp
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In real life a P-38 pilot forgot to switch tanks after dropping the droptanks and diving on a 109. The engines cut out from fuel starvation, but he still managed to glide in behind the 109 and shoot it down. He then switched the fuel tank selector and both engine lit up no problem.
Would anyone do it on purpose in real life. Of course not, but that's not the point is it?
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I like it when one cut's the engine off . I can hear it and know what's he doing .
Had some good fights tonight with lots of players. One of them got me thinking about what we do in game to improve our postion vs what the real pilots would have done.
A guy in a 109g14 fought my 109f4.....we had some good fights but I noticed he was turning his engine of when we scissored and danced. It's not a common tactic I've come across, although I have seen it before.
Would a real pilot do this? Having never flown anything but sim' birds I wouldn't know how hard it was to do this in combat.
We was pretty even on fights and I had fun. Was just curios
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4prop, have you ever flown in a scenario? If not, I invite you to give it a try. There are ones that have P-47's in them at 25-30k, fighting against their historical opponents.
Here is a description of a frame from one of those:
http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201102_battleOverGermany/aar_frame1.htm
Or simply read a book on the 56th FG and why they were so successful, one of the reasons which they performed fighter sweeps at 30,000ft where german fighters simply could not do anything at all.
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Not something a pilot would do in real life. If he is that far behind the curve it would only add to his workload. IMA.
If a pilot shut his engine off in real life all they would have to do is turn the magnetos back on. The prop still spins in most cases still spins the engine.
So you won't even have to crank the engine. I talking piston engines only.
You wouldn't want to touch the mags with a windmilling prop.
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Going through hundreds of stories and books - I never once remember or read any "ace" turning his engine off in flight and turning it back on while in flight.
Thus being said, combat is a delicate situation, is there any reports/stories of pilots who might of accidentally shut the engine off in flight then restarted? or on purpose?
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In Game cutting throttle or shutting down can fool the inexperienced. Many times you get these BNZ guys intent on picking. Act like you don't see them as they zoom in for the kill and if you do it right they overshoot giving you a shot.
Half the time the picker will break off after you do a move and fly back up to thier perch looking for easier prey. :joystick:
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What do you mean by spinner disintegration?
Came apart, decided it did not wish to fly with me any more. It liked to be in many pieces only not all at once so great shaking of the plane was felt. Where there was once a spinner , only a remembrance was left. Loudest noise I have heard in my plane, followed by throttle cut to ideal and engine no longing making that that wind that keeps the pilot cool.
Shaking stopped after last pieces of the back plate waved goodby. Then mixture was enriched and engine instantly came back to life. More power, still no shaking, nearest button on GPS was pressed. Hearne Texas, very nice crop duster operation there. Turbo prop Air Tractors are cool.
On final something looks different then normal, wheels go screech screech, GREAT! I still have wheels on my plane, pull up next to the 1 hangar, get out. Hmm no spinner on my plane any more, that must be what made that noise.
1 week later after a solid week low ceilings , longest 40 mins I have had in an airplane taking n346ak home. The engined wanted to go into auto rough for some reason.
HiTech
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The prop at idle creates more drag in AH than cutting the engine off. The reason is that when the engine is off the prop feathers... even though visually you don't see it.
I don't think you'll find where real pilots cut the engine as it may not restart.
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I like seeing an AHpilot do that with the E key, most of the time it screams out 'I'm easy'.
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The prop at idle creates more drag in AH than cutting the engine off. The reason is that when the engine is off the prop feathers... even though visually you don't see it.
If the prop feathers when it is cut off, does it also feather when the engine dies? I was always under the impression if you go dead stick you'll glide further if you turn your RPM down. I had thought turning RPM down feathered the prop as well as turning down the RPM. Does the turning down of the RPM also make it move through the air easier?
Wiley.
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I always cut props before landing my B17 on a turning CV..........
999000 <S>
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The prop at idle creates more drag in AH than cutting the engine off. The reason is that when the engine is off the prop feathers... even though visually you don't see it.
I don't think you'll find where real pilots cut the engine as it may not restart.
Not entirely true. In AH if the prop feathers, you will see it stop , like on the p38 in which case it does not instantly start, and yes there is less drag when the prop is feathered.
If you see the prop spinning when the engine is off, it will be creating drag, and yes less RPM will create less drag.
HiTech
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Wouldn't a closed throttle slow you down more than shutting off the engine?
This assumes that the wind moving over the prop is turning it. Like engine breaking a car. No idea how it's modelled in AH.
Also the plane seems to turn better with lower prop RPM. It's why many chop throttle in turns, and claim that's how you make tighter turns. Only reason I can think of that's based in physics would be gyro effect of large spinning prop. Is that effect modeled? I believe I've seen HiTech say that is not the case. If it were, shutting the engine off is taking the gyro effect to Zero. Perhaps that's what those who do it are thinking.
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No, the concept doesn't work quite well at all. There is no benefit to shutting down your engine in a fight, just like the thought of using elevator trim to make your plane turn tighter. Both are AH urban legends that have been debunked many times through the years. But by all means continue to do it if I'm in the area, I'd love the free and easy kill.
ack-ack
I don't think it's an urban legend that Elevator trim pulls the plane out of dive during compression. This shouldn't work in real life but it does in game. Coad glitch?
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I don't think it's an urban legend that Elevator trim pulls the plane out of dive during compression. This shouldn't work in real life but it does in game. Coad glitch?
The elevator trimming up to save you from compression-induced lawndarting is not making the plane turn tighter, it's allowing the little toon dude in the cockpit to overcome the forces acting on the elevator to be able to pull tighter.
What Ack-Ack is talking about is the belief that at controllable speed, there's a difference between full elevator up and full elevator up plus full trim up. There isn't a difference, afaik.
Wiley.
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Or simply read a book on the 56th FG and why they were so successful, one of the reasons which they performed fighter sweeps at 30,000ft where german fighters simply could not do anything at all.
exactly where I get my flying style from
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Re: elevator myth
I think its the notion that since trim expresses authority in conditions when it shouldn't it might carry over to non-compressing situations like that as well.
Thus it is a completely *valid* idea and notion to believe since one assumes its coded outside of the basic elevator control system which is the impression you get when you magically control your plane while fully compressed. Even if it is untrue.
What it does do though, is keep your plane turning; so you are less likely to miss degrees you might not of gotten due to the delay in reacting if you are purely responding to actions in the middle of combat.
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What Ack-Ack is talking about is the belief that at controllable speed, there's a difference between full elevator up and full elevator up plus full trim up. There isn't a difference, afaik.
Wiley.
And even if there is a difference it doesn't matter. The turn is limited by either blackout or stall....not elevator position.
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Elevator trim would have no effect in compressibility in real life on some planes (such as in the P-38, where trim is the usual trim tab on the elevator) but might in other planes (such as the Bf 109, where trim moved the whole horizontal stabilizer) although that is speculation on my part.
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(such as the Bf 109, where trim moved the whole horizontal stabilizer)
That is a very easy piece of info to forget. :(
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And even if there is a difference it doesn't matter. The turn is limited by either blackout or stall....not elevator position.
I agree. This is starting to get outside of the 'common sense' arena, but if there's more elevator authority, wouldn't that also mean that it could pull to the blackout or stall point at a lower speed than it would otherwise, thus changing the qualities of the turn?
Wiley.
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The urban legend about trim was that it "added" to elevator deflection, when instead it works only inside the max allowed elevator deflection. Full up trim + full back stick gives the same deflection as neutral trim + full back stick.
As for the engine chopping, it's not very effective, but most of the times I've talked to folks that do it, it isn't for any advantage. Often they don't have a working throttle or any throttle at all. Several I've asked over the years said it was simply easier to map a key on their joystick to toggle engine on/off than to try mashing the keyboard for a throttle chop.
Practicality, not exploit-ism.
Food for thought.
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When you see someone turn on/off their engine in mid-fight, it's because they falsely believe that it will get them slower and make you over shoot in a rolling scissor or to make them turn tighter in a turn. It's an AH urban legend without any basis in fact. Count your blessings because you're about to enjoy an easy kill if the other guy starts with the engine cutting.
ack-ack
While I agree with this for the most part,I think too many are overthink this question of Klam's.
It's very likely the player cut his engine because he has no throttle mapped! Or his throttle is in an awkward spot and it's just easier to press E. I don't condone this but I understand why some players try this.
:salute
PS: the way some players complain makes me wonder why they even play....or do they.... :noid
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Whenever I see someone cutting their engine in a stall fight, I already know I have won. I didn't bother to read all the posts in here, but I am sure someone has already brought up the fact that it doesn't actually slow you down faster than simply cutting your throttle. They are just adding one more thing to worry about during a stall fight, and it will usually get them killed if they come up against a halfway decent player.
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Morf; Beat ya to it by 14 minutes! :P
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yeah but you have to fly around for 1 or 2 hours before.
semp
In Battle Over Germany (the link I posted) the times to first contact with enemy for me were, for each frame (in minutes): 37, 19, 58, 26, 36, and 33. In Winter Sky - Death Ground (which we just finished), for me they were: 20, 49, 20, and 27. I've flown in every frame of every scenario since 2004. There have been occasional frames where that happened to me, too, and I don't prefer it, but typical times to first contact are much shorter than that.
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Or simply read a book on the 56th FG and why they were so successful, one of the reasons which they performed fighter sweeps at 30,000ft where german fighters simply could not do anything at all.
I would say "and". The most fun is reading historical accounts of WWII aerial combat *and* playing in scenarios, in my opinion. A good scenario is when flying in it reminds you of one of those passages you've read about and gives a flavor of the historical action, like this:
It appears the fight over 109 mirrored some history after all. On December 17, 1944 at the beginning of the Battle of the Bulge, both the German and Allied Air Forces were up in strength.
The 428th FS P38s were flying a ground attack mission. Eight P38s were up (same as us yesterday) They got bounced by 26 190s of JG26 followed by 20 +from JG2. In the fight that followed 4 Lightnings were downed and 4 made it back although 2 were so shot up they were junked. Only 4 P38s were available the next day. The real 428th clamed 3 destroyed, 3 probably destroyed and 3 damaged. The cartoon 428th claimed 7 downed.
To make it even a bit spookier history wise. As the fight was ending with the 38s and the 190s had been dragged down, the real 404th FG and their Jugs came down on top of them and claimed 7 190s. JG26 didn't lose any that day, but JG2 lost 15 planes in the course of the fights.
Nearby Tempests and Spit XIVs tangled with 109s.
It all seems so familiar to me. It made me appreciate even more that this isn't real :)
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Morf; Beat ya to it by 14 minutes! :P
Ah yes indeed,guess I shouldn't just skim some posts,saw the urban legend part but skipped through the second part!
Goes to show I'm just human and make mistakes too! :rofl :rofl :rofl
I too, have asked many a player why they shut down the engine and it's usually I fly with a mouse the responce I get. So I try to get them to map the scroll wheel{if they have 1} to throttle and wep would be pressing on the wheel! Not as effective as a real throttle but a workable solution.
:salute
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In Battle Over Germany (the link I posted) the times to first contact with enemy for me were, for each frame (in minutes): 37, 19, 58, 26, 36, and 33. In Winter Sky - Death Ground (which we just finished), for me they were: 20, 49, 20, and 27. I've flown in every frame of every scenario since 2004. There have been occasional frames where that happened to me, too, and I don't prefer it, but typical times to first contact are much shorter than that.
Only the 262s didn't see combat for 30 minutes or longer, In Snapshots or FSO's the longest I have waited was 30-45 minutes, generally speaking if I wanted to "FIND" combat I would simply fly towards the enemy. In the case of the 262s, it took a good hour since we were on a mission to hunt buffs on the deck.
I don't recall ever spending more then 1 hour waiting for combat, in a good scenario where CIC's take the time to devise a plan and execute it - I have seen 1 hour tops.
Then again if I didn't want to wait for the best furball of my life, i'd simply find tank town and die every 5 minutes.
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The elevator trimming up to save you from compression-induced lawndarting is not making the plane turn tighter, it's allowing the little toon dude in the cockpit to overcome the forces acting on the elevator to be able to pull tighter.
What Ack-Ack is talking about is the belief that at controllable speed, there's a difference between full elevator up and full elevator up plus full trim up. There isn't a difference, afaik.
Wiley.
Yes I did know what Ack was refering to and how they are differen't. I just was pointing out that....well this....
Re: elevator myth
I think its the notion that since trim expresses authority in conditions when it shouldn't it might carry over to non-compressing situations like that as well.
Thus it is a completely *valid* idea and notion to believe since one assumes its coded outside of the basic elevator control system which is the impression you get when you magically control your plane while fully compressed. Even if it is untrue.
What it does do though, is keep your plane turning; so you are less likely to miss degrees you might not of gotten due to the delay in reacting if you are purely responding to actions in the middle of combat
I was assuming the loss of control issue was due to [1]the evelators acting in vaccuum/static-air caused by the wake from wing and other surfaces. In this case, trim would be useless. In the case where [2] elastic deformations have bound up a control surface, trim would help. For the case of [3]a "shock wave" making it hard to move the surface, I am unfamiliar how this works or if trim would help, or how many of the WWII birds suffered from this version of the compression phenomina.
Didn't most WWII birds suffer from version [1]? :salute
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I think only the P-38 suffered that kind, which is why recovery flap settings were used instead of up-trim alone.
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I think only the P-38 suffered that kind, which is why recovery flap settings were used instead of up-trim alone.
that's what I remember about the P-38, but there seems to be lots of opinions on that plane because it's compression effects were so legendary. As pointed out in an above post rotating the whole horzontal tail surface was a cure for this kind of control loss. But I didn't know that any WWII birds did that. I thought that showed up on Bell X-1 and later jets. :salute
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Most planes used trim to ease stick pressures on pullouts and whatnot, but of those planes only a small handful ever had the "flying tail" design -- mostly this was a Messerschmitt feature (with a few exceptions).
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Most planes used trim to ease stick pressures on pullouts and whatnot, but of those planes only a small handful ever had the "flying tail" design -- mostly this was a Messerschmitt feature (with a few exceptions).
If that's true and 109s had it, then there compression trim response is properly modeled. nice to know. :salute
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I had thought turning RPM down feathered the prop as well as turning down the RPM. Does the turning down of the RPM also make it move through the air easier?
Wiley.
a windmill at rest requires zero energy.
a rotating windmill requires something over zero yes? the faster a windmill turns, the more energy it requires.
it continues to amaze me that people who are so proficient in the game do not understand the basic principles of the airplanes they are flying.. the only RPM control on a constant speed propped airplane is the propeller rpm lever.. the power (torque) is added via the throttle. . the CSU, or governor (look it up) maintains the RPM.
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the only RPM control on a constant speed propped airplane is the propeller rpm lever..
IF you are pulling enough power to keep the prop off the low pitch stop. Below that point throttle controls RPM just like a fixed-pitch prop. Of course at that low of power setting you would not be able to maintain altitude.
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it continues to amaze me that people who are so proficient in the game do not understand the basic principles of the airplanes they are flying.. the only RPM control on a constant speed propped airplane is the propeller rpm lever.. the power (torque) is added via the throttle. . the CSU, or governor (look it up) maintains the RPM.
The beauty of the game is through 99% of your flights, the minute details are irrelevant. Push throttle forward, plane speeds up. Pull it back, plane slows down. Stuff like the above just gets me curious when things have gone horribly wrong and I've got a dead stick plane far from a friendly base and I'm trying to get home.
If I understand right, when your engine is dead, the best thing to do is reduce RPM and try to get the prop to stop. Is that correct? If it's free spinning, is there any way to get it to stop, say by getting below a certain airspeed or somesuch?
Wiley.
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When you see someone turn on/off their engine in mid-fight, it's because they falsely believe that it will get them slower and make you over shoot in a rolling scissor or to make them turn tighter in a turn. It's an AH urban legend without any basis in fact. Count your blessings because you're about to enjoy an easy kill if the other guy starts with the engine cutting.
ack-ack
This is exactly right....cutting your engine off in a 109 is also not smart because of the torque. You can control your plane better in high torque rides by moving your throttle constantly.
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Ive cut my engine lots of times before in 1v1 and it always seems to piss off my opponent. does it help me? well i tend to think it does if you know what you're doing, and until i cannot turn my engine instantly back on i will keep doing it lol.
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Not sure why this topic has so many pages.
It's very easy to nose down and compare engine off vs engine throttled back.......as well as seeing how the + and - used before engine shutdown affects drag.
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3:my point..gamey
4: really? cause my engine has never given out unless it was shot to hell, oil, or fuel leaked.
5: only in compressions
7: IRL, they did. just listing something that is gamey
8: bombers that caught fire never made it back..hmm? I've heard first hand accounts of planes that caught fire and they made it back. a P47 was jumped by a 190 ace and the 190 caught it on fire. the Jug spun out, while on fire. the pilot recovered and made it home..that is, after a fight. Never has a P47..much less any plane in AH EVER done that.
10: they obviously dont work as they did in RL. thats a given.
11: if we had a 1.00 FBR what makes you fly for 2 hours to find a fight? I never knew changing the FBR would also completly rearrange the maps.
12: true, yet another listing of gameyness
You consistently miss the point....
It's "gamey", because it's a game. One of HTC's goals is to encourage combat. Thus, systems are simplified. I'd rather be fighting than managing systems. There are plenty of flight sims that place emphasis on systems. Ever sit on a runway and watch other players land? It's often comical. Now, let' complicate this by having fully functioning systems and a reliability factor. It would be chaos. More than a few would become disenchanted and move on to another game.
Now, other things....
Point 5 above: Many aircraft suffer from stiffening controls well below compressibility speed. Just because your controls don't respond well doesn't mean you're into compressibility. This simulates the actual issues of the real aircraft. It reflects the lack of mechanical advantage of the stick and/or rudder pedals to overcome aerodynamic forces exerted on the control surfaces. If you're not buffeting, you're not into compressibility...
Point 8 above: Very few aircraft that suffered a fuel fire made it home. The fire must self extinguish, which is unlikely if a fuel tank is damaged enough to leak. An oil fire may go out, but even then, it's a huge risk to stay in the aircraft. Pilots were trained to bail out in the event of a fire. It would be stupid not to.
Point 11 above: MA fuel burn was once 1.5. It was adjusted to 2.0 to encourage better game play.
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You consistently miss the point....
It's "gamey", because it's a game. One of HTC's goals is to encourage combat. Thus, systems are simplified. I'd rather be fighting than managing systems. There are plenty of flight sims that place emphasis on systems. Ever sit on a runway and watch other players land? It's often comical. Now, let' complicate this by having fully functioning systems and a reliability factor. It would be chaos. More than a few would become disenchanted and move on to another game.
Now, other things....
Point 5 above: Many aircraft suffer from stiffening controls well below compressibility speed. Just because your controls don't respond well doesn't mean you're into compressibility. This simulates the actual issues of the real aircraft. It reflects the lack of mechanical advantage of the stick and/or rudder pedals to overcome aerodynamic forces exerted on the control surfaces. If you're not buffeting, you're not into compressibility...
Point 8 above: Very few aircraft that suffered a fuel fire made it home. The fire must self extinguish, which is unlikely if a fuel tank is damaged enough to leak. An oil fire may go out, but even then, it's a huge risk to stay in the aircraft. Pilots were trained to bail out in the event of a fire. It would be stupid not to.
Point 11 above: MA fuel burn was once 1.5. It was adjusted to 2.0 to encourage better game play.
Ah a voice of reason! this is why I always read your posts,clear, consice and usually informative!
:salute
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Came apart, decided it did not wish to fly with me any more. It liked to be in many pieces only not all at once so great shaking of the plane was felt. Where there was once a spinner , only a remembrance was left. Loudest noise I have heard in my plane, followed by throttle cut to ideal and engine no longing making that that wind that keeps the pilot cool.
Shaking stopped after last pieces of the back plate waved goodby. Then mixture was enriched and engine instantly came back to life. More power, still no shaking, nearest button on GPS was pressed. Hearne Texas, very nice crop duster operation there. Turbo prop Air Tractors are cool.
On final something looks different then normal, wheels go screech screech, GREAT! I still have wheels on my plane, pull up next to the 1 hangar, get out. Hmm no spinner on my plane any more, that must be what made that noise.
1 week later after a solid week low ceilings , longest 40 mins I have had in an airplane taking n346ak home. The engined wanted to go into auto rough for some reason.
HiTech
I solo'd at Hearne about 25 years ago....great place to learn how to fly!
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If you see me shut my engine off, it's because I'm side slipping too much. Ever try pulling back and rolling left in a 109 even with engine at idle?
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Point 5 above: Many aircraft suffer from stiffening controls well below compressibility speed. Just because your controls don't respond well doesn't mean you're into compressibility. This simulates the actual issues of the real aircraft. It reflects the lack of mechanical advantage of the stick and/or rudder pedals to overcome aerodynamic forces exerted on the control surfaces. If you're not buffeting, you're not into compressibility...
I read the original on I think page 1 and had to clean my monitor off cause I spit beer on it because I was laughing so hard. I think statistics will show that I spend more time with locked control surfaces than any other player in this game. Not the best thing to be known for but it's something I've been forced to embrace. I've had bombers that wouldn't pull out of a turn because I turned them to tight and I almost always auger in a fighter/attack aircraft.
Last night I was up in some Lancstukkas and had a Moss chacing me, my top turret and tail turret were either out of ammo (poor gunnery) or destroyed (poor SA) and as a last ditch effort I decided to barrel role my lanc (drones already dead). surprisingly the lanc kept it's arms on but I still got shot down by the Moss though he had to work a little bit for it..
Cheers,
Ciaphas
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Gamey flying on his part.
Engine restart should have a few seconds of delay before power is regenerated, just to prevent or reduce that type of mess.
.
In a GV I guess it would equate to hauling asz in an m18, seeing a con lining up on your 6 in a strafe or bomb pass, wait till they're 1k away and hit a tree for a 52mph to zero in a split second to make the con overshoot. In real life of course all crewmembers in the turret would shoot out from the open turret like chaff and the driver would bounce off the inside like a BB in a cup.
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As for the technical possibilities of switching your engine off and on in flight (besides the unusual situations most people have described here) there's one that did this everytime it flew. The Gnome rotary (as opposed to radial) engine of WWI. While it looked the same as a radial engine it actually had its crankshaft attached to the plane and the prop to the engine. The entire engine itself rotated which means there was no effective way of throttling it except to switch it on and off and it did that the entire flight. It was a pretty successful engine being used in the Fokker DR1 and Sopwith Camel. I've heard audio of one operating and it sounds just like you'd expect, on, off, on, off. Not saying this is relevant to the OP's question, just that it's technically feasible as a normal operating mode.
As for AH, there's another reason that you'll see engines shut off in flight. My throttle quadrant has (had) both "afterburner" and "idle" detents. When you moved the throttle full forward or aft there were two points of resistance where you had to push harder to move the throttle all the way. In modern jets the forward detent lights the afterburner and the aft detent shuts the engine down. I mapped mine for WEP and engine shutdown (and restart) but because these "detents" were just points of increased resistance vice physical "stops" it was quite easy to shut the engine down simply by aggressively bringing the throttle back abruptly so it happened quite frequently even though not intended. I had a buddy do the same thing and accidentaly shut down his T-38 but it was on landing rollout. I was landing right behind him and couldn't figure out why he was just sitting there (Tower was wondering also). Very embarassing for him.
In AH I found there was no discernable difference or advantage to shutting the engine down (obviously I mean for just that short period of time), the real downside is that it tells your opponent exactly what you're doing. I no longer use either detent but that's just because both of them broke but I did like the realism of having the throttle set up the way I was used to.