gamey stuff and real life

[Wiley]

And even if there is a difference it doesn't matter.  The turn is limited by either blackout or stall....not elevator position.

I agree.  This is starting to get outside of the 'common sense' arena, but if there's more elevator authority, wouldn't that also mean that it could pull to the blackout or stall point at a lower speed than it would otherwise, thus changing the qualities of the turn?

Wiley.

[Krusty]

The urban legend about trim was that it "added" to elevator deflection, when instead it works only inside the max allowed elevator deflection. Full up trim + full back stick gives the same deflection as neutral trim + full back stick.


As for the engine chopping, it's not very effective, but most of the times I've talked to folks that do it, it isn't for any advantage. Often they don't have a working throttle or any throttle at all. Several I've asked over the years said it was simply easier to map a key on their joystick to toggle engine on/off than to try mashing the keyboard for a throttle chop.


Practicality, not exploit-ism.


Food for thought.

[morfiend]

When you see someone turn on/off their engine in mid-fight, it's because they falsely believe that it will get them slower and make you over shoot in a rolling scissor or to make them turn tighter in a turn.  It's an AH urban legend without any basis in fact.  Count your blessings because you're about to enjoy an easy kill if the other guy starts with the engine cutting.

ack-ack

  While I agree with this for the most part,I think too many are overthink this question of Klam's.

    It's very likely the player cut his engine because he has no throttle mapped! Or his throttle is in an awkward spot and it's just easier to press E. I don't condone this but I understand why some players try this.


   

  PS: the way some players complain makes me wonder why they even play....or do they....

[BigR]

Whenever I see someone cutting their engine in a stall fight, I already know I have won. I didn't bother to read all the posts in here, but I am sure someone has already brought up the fact that it doesn't actually slow you down faster than simply cutting your throttle. They are just adding one more thing to worry about during a stall fight, and it will usually get them killed if they come up against a halfway decent player. 

[Krusty]

Morf; Beat ya to it by 14 minutes! 

[Brooke]

yeah but you have to fly around for 1 or 2 hours before.

semp

In Battle Over Germany (the link I posted) the times to first contact with enemy for me were, for each frame (in minutes):  37, 19, 58, 26, 36, and 33.  In Winter Sky - Death Ground (which we just finished), for me they were:  20, 49, 20, and 27.  I've flown in every frame of every scenario since 2004.  There have been occasional frames where that happened to me, too, and I don't prefer it, but typical times to first contact are much shorter than that.

[Brooke]

Or simply read a book on the 56th FG and why they were so successful, one of the reasons which they performed fighter sweeps at 30,000ft where german fighters simply could not do anything at all.

I would say "and".  The most fun is reading historical accounts of WWII aerial combat *and* playing in scenarios, in my opinion.  A good scenario is when flying in it reminds you of one of those passages you've read about and gives a flavor of the historical action, like this:

It appears the fight over 109 mirrored some history after all.  On December 17, 1944 at the beginning of the Battle of the Bulge, both the German and Allied Air Forces were up in strength.

The 428th FS P38s were flying a ground attack mission.  Eight P38s were up (same as us yesterday)  They got bounced by 26 190s of JG26 followed by 20 +from JG2.  In the fight that followed 4 Lightnings were downed and 4 made it back although 2 were so shot up they were junked.  Only 4 P38s were available the next day.  The real 428th clamed 3 destroyed, 3 probably destroyed and 3 damaged.  The cartoon 428th claimed 7 downed.

To make it even a bit spookier history wise.  As the fight was ending with the 38s and the 190s had been dragged down, the real 404th FG and their Jugs came down on top of them and claimed 7 190s.  JG26 didn't lose any that day, but JG2 lost 15 planes in the course of the fights.

Nearby Tempests and Spit XIVs tangled with 109s.

It all seems so familiar to me.  It made me appreciate even more that this isn't real

[morfiend]

Morf; Beat ya to it by 14 minutes! 

  Ah yes indeed,guess I shouldn't just skim some posts,saw the urban legend part but skipped through the second part!

  Goes to show I'm just human and make mistakes too!

  I too, have asked many a player why they shut down the engine and it's usually I fly with a mouse the responce I get. So I try to get them to map the scroll wheel{if they have 1} to throttle and wep would be pressing on the wheel!    Not as effective as a real throttle but a workable solution.



    

[Butcher]

In Battle Over Germany (the link I posted) the times to first contact with enemy for me were, for each frame (in minutes):  37, 19, 58, 26, 36, and 33.  In Winter Sky - Death Ground (which we just finished), for me they were:  20, 49, 20, and 27.  I've flown in every frame of every scenario since 2004.  There have been occasional frames where that happened to me, too, and I don't prefer it, but typical times to first contact are much shorter than that.

Only the 262s didn't see combat for 30 minutes or longer, In Snapshots or FSO's the longest I have waited was 30-45 minutes, generally speaking if I wanted to "FIND" combat I would simply fly towards the enemy. In the case of the 262s, it took a good hour since we were on a mission to hunt buffs on the deck.

I don't recall ever spending more then 1 hour waiting for combat, in a good scenario where CIC's take the time to devise a plan and execute it - I have seen 1 hour tops.

Then again if I didn't want to wait for the best furball of my life, i'd simply find tank town and die every 5 minutes.

[Vinkman]

The elevator trimming up to save you from compression-induced lawndarting is not making the plane turn tighter, it's allowing the little toon dude in the cockpit to overcome the forces acting on the elevator to be able to pull tighter.

What Ack-Ack is talking about is the belief that at controllable speed, there's a difference between full elevator up and full elevator up plus full trim up.  There isn't a difference, afaik.

Wiley.

Yes I did know what Ack was refering to and how they are differen't. I just was pointing out that....well this....

Re: elevator myth

I think its the notion that since trim expresses authority in conditions when it shouldn't it might carry over to non-compressing situations like that as well.

Thus it is a completely *valid* idea and notion to believe since one assumes its coded outside of the basic elevator control system which is the impression you get when you magically control your plane while fully compressed. Even if it is untrue.

What it does do though, is keep your plane turning; so you are less likely to miss degrees you might not of gotten due to the delay in reacting if you are purely responding to actions in the middle of combat

I was assuming the loss of control issue was due to [1]the evelators acting in vaccuum/static-air caused by the wake from wing and other surfaces. In this case, trim would be useless. In the case where [2] elastic deformations have bound up a control surface, trim would help. For the case of [3]a "shock wave" making it hard to move the surface, I am unfamiliar how this works or if trim would help, or how many of the WWII birds suffered from this version of the compression phenomina.

Didn't most WWII birds suffer from version [1]? 

[Krusty]

I think only the P-38 suffered that kind, which is why recovery flap settings were used instead of up-trim alone.

[Vinkman]

I think only the P-38 suffered that kind, which is why recovery flap settings were used instead of up-trim alone.

that's what I remember about the P-38, but there seems to be lots of opinions on that plane because it's compression effects were so legendary. As pointed out in an above post rotating the whole horzontal tail surface was a cure for this kind of control loss. But I didn't know that any WWII birds did that. I thought that showed up on Bell X-1 and later jets. 

[Krusty]

Most planes used trim to ease stick pressures on pullouts and whatnot, but of those planes only a small handful ever had the "flying tail" design -- mostly this was a Messerschmitt feature (with a few exceptions).

[Vinkman]

Most planes used trim to ease stick pressures on pullouts and whatnot, but of those planes only a small handful ever had the "flying tail" design -- mostly this was a Messerschmitt feature (with a few exceptions).

If that's true and 109s had it, then there compression trim response is properly modeled. nice to know. 

[kvuo75]

I had thought turning RPM down feathered the prop as well as turning down the RPM.  Does the turning down of the RPM also make it move through the air easier?

Wiley.

a windmill at rest requires zero energy.

a rotating windmill requires something over zero yes? the faster a windmill turns, the more energy it requires.


it continues to amaze me that people who are so proficient in the game do not understand the basic principles of the airplanes they are flying.. the only RPM control on a constant speed propped airplane is the propeller rpm lever.. the power (torque) is added via the throttle. . the CSU, or governor (look it up) maintains the RPM.