Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on May 16, 2012, 09:30:36 AM
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Guys,
With regard to convergence and staggering\slash over laying vs. setting all guns to one range; what is your preference and findings of how effective (or not effective) it is.
For example: some with a P-51 will set convergence so as inner gun = 350, middle 325 and outer 300.
Thanks for sharing,
Slade :salute
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lots of hit on a single spot -> the part will pop off
lots of hits but spread out on the enemy plane -> won't kill it.
on that basis I put all my guns of the same calibre on the same convergence, which is 300 for me in the P51.
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I stagger them 25 yds apart.
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Set them all the same, or you're only landing a fraction of your rounds. If you're mixing gun types knock yourself out, but for the most part unless you're pulling massive G-shots (low probability shots) they'll all land in the same spot when the convergence is the same anyways.
Set them to the same, for most planes. There are a couple of exceptions I can think of but it's not worth getting into.
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if you take say the JUG that has a lot of guns it is Good to stagger them.....opposite if you only have a couple guns....
IMO
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Set them all to the same point. My only exception is the 109s MGs. I set the cannon (both 20mm or 30mm) to D200 and the MGs to D600. I only use the cannon for kill shots, I use the MG to pepper them if they run or to scare them off a friendly.
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yeah the jug is the only staggered one I have, creates a tunnel of bullets ~10' wide. I figure since most of the damage areas in AH are large its the same as point convergence from model damage perspective. which means you're effectively at convergence ~100yd either side of the centre of your stagger.
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In most fighters I set it up staggered. IE in the brewster i set the cowl guns farther out then i do the 2 wing guns because i only use one set at a time unless im close enough in where it wont make much difference.
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It's best to set them all to one convergence point so to make the damage impact greater but I've read some pilot interviews were they would some times stagger their guns at intervals. Basically, it boils down to personal preference.
ack-ack
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P-47 is the only aircraft in which staggering works IMO, I've had this discussion 5+ years ago, still is the ONLY aircraft I stagger or have outside 350 (350/375) for my staggering.
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Keep in mind that you're not shooting lazer-perfect lines like in the hangar convergence screen. Each gun will have a "cone of fire" around that path. By scattering them, you're not just making a "shotgun effect" -- but you're making a super scattered shotgun effect because each of those has a large cone of dispersion where any individual round could be.
Observe what your best kill range is. Roll film and look back on many sorties. Pick the range you get your kill shots (NOT the tickle shots, not passing glances), and set all your convergence to that. Generally speaking that's the best solution.
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Point convergence. All guns, all planes.
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set your convergence to whatever blows your skirt up , then bring up the in flight target and set it at different ranges and see how it affects your spread. Adjust your convergence to whatever looks best at the range you shoot from most. :airplane:
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I think with cowl guns or central guns you can set them way out then push the wing guns in.
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point convergence for all except the 8 gun package on the p47s, even on the 47s i still pair the guns so the inner 2 pair of guns are at 375 and the outter 2 pair are at 400
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I stagger out of bed... stagger to the bathroom... stagger to the mess hall... stagger to my plane.... I'll be danged if I am going to stagger my guns. :P
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Guys,
With regard to convergence and staggering\slash over laying vs. setting all guns to one range; what is your preference and findings of how effective (or not effective) it is.
For example: some with a P-51 will set convergence so as inner gun = 350, middle 325 and outer 300.
Thanks for sharing,
Slade :salute
REALLY depends.
fighters with 6 .50's and under, I set to point convergence, range: D350
Ground attackers with .50's, I set to a zone of 100yds ending at D500
Fighters with 8 .50s (P-47 *cough*), I set to a zone of 100yds centered on D350
Hurricane ans spitfire mk 1 are set to D300 point convergance.
Fighters nose mounted cannons I set to D 50, and for cowl MG's I have those set to D650, wing mounted set to between D275 and D350 depending on the spacing, placment and caliber (spits 8 and under are set to D275, 14+ to D350, Ki-61 to D350)
Fighters with wing cannons I set to D 350 if they're wide spaced, D450 for all 190's save the A8, since the cannons are in the wing root. A8 I have all 4 cannons set to D400.
Ta-152 and K4 have the 30mm set to D250, and the Ta-152 has the 20mms set to D 450.
110 has the 20mm's set to D500, and the 30mm's set to D350.
And then occationally I'll change to a mission-specific convergence.
All of my tank guns are set to D3200 + convergence :devil.
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Ask yourself where the bulk of your "kill" shots occur. THAT is where the convergence should be set. Unless we're talking about the 8 gun P47 or the Me262 with quad 30mm, I highly suggest keeping everything set at the same.
I dont, but I can see the reasoning behind staggering quad 20mm by 25 yards, too. But Spitfires, 6/4 gun US planes, 109's, etc etc... keep them together. No sense in delivering a jab when a knockout punch can be had. :aok
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Unless your target is exactly at the convergence range then technically the rounds will stagger or fan out across the target no matter what. If your convergence is set at D350 and your target is at D400, rounds will not hit the target in exactly the same location (assuming wing mounted guns). Also, how do you know you're exactly at D350, since Icon range in game goes from D400 to D200, a difference of 200 yards? Just a thought.
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Ask yourself where the bulk of your "kill" shots occur. THAT is where the convergence should be set. Unless we're talking about the 8 gun P47 or the Me262 with quad 30mm, I highly suggest keeping everything set at the same.
I dont, but I can see the reasoning behind staggering quad 20mm by 25 yards, too. But Spitfires, 6/4 gun US planes, 109's, etc etc... keep them together. No sense in delivering a jab when a knockout punch can be had. :aok
Depends on how you mean this. If you're talking gondies, yeah, no reason to stagger them. If you're talking cowl guns, no reason not to set those out further since they shoot pretty flat and give you a bit of long-ranged bite.
Especially on the K4 or anything where you're using 30mm's, theres absolutely ZERO reason to concentrate them.
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Unless your target is exactly at the convergence range then technically the rounds will stagger or fan out across the target no matter what. If your convergence is set at D350 and your target is at D400, rounds will not hit the target in exactly the same location (assuming wing mounted guns). Also, how do you know you're exactly at D350, since Icon range in game goes from D400 to D200, a difference of 200 yards? Just a thought.
If my enemy is closer than my convergence with wing guns, only half my gun will shoot on the same spot. Even so, the 3 machineguns will have a better hit concentration if they are on the same convergence, than staggered convergence guns. The only advantage of staggered guns would be when you are missing on purpose, at a precise distance :headscratch:
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There is one single plane in which I'm using a staggered convergence. But one so extreme, that I didn't think of it as being staggered at all: The Me 262 with D650 and D200, to create a kind of "shotgun" effect.
I did so specifically with enemy fighters in mind, against which I often have just one and very short firing opportunity at rapidly varying angles and closure speeds.As usually only one hit is needed for a kill, I traded 'precision' for 'volume' & 'dispersion'. But this helps in slashing attacks vs buffs, too.
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There is alot of great information here. And the convergence seems to depend on flying style. So to delve a little deeper i have a question regarding round tragectory and convergence.
So if your convergence is set for lets say 350. So dose this mean that at 350 you rounds are at the hights point of the arch. And anything else will be bellow the target?
Or jus the opposite. And the tergectory or the rounds are flat, and at 350, they start to drop off. So in theory you can aim dead on till you get the past 350 and any past that you need to aim above the target to allow for bullet dro
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ELOHSSA, I think you can find the answer, and many more information, in this big convergence thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,323183.0.html) in the Help & Training forum :salute
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Convergence means that when flying level and looking through the gun sight, your rounds will pass through the aim point at that range, be it D350, D200, or D650.
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The height of the arc would be the mid point between the gun and the selected convergence distance as the rounds arc as they leave the gun. For example, if you're convergence is set at D400 then the high point of the arc would be D200 or somewhere close depending on velocity of the round. There's some good info on convergence on the Aces High Trainer's site. Check it out.
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The height of the arc would be the mid point between the gun and the selected convergence distance as the rounds arc as they leave the gun. For example, if you're convergence is set at D400 then the high point of the arc would be D200 or somewhere close depending on velocity of the round. There's some good info on convergence on the Aces High Trainer's site. Check it out.
This is how it works in RL but not in AH. The rounds leave the barrel and reach their highest point at convergence.
set conv to 600 and set target at 300 see where the rounds land! In RL they would be above the pipper at that point but I'll let you check to see for yourself if this is how it works in AH.
:salute
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depends on the ballistics of the round and how far below the sight the guns are. I doubt theres any wing fired rounds that are dropping at d600 (vickers 40mm perhaps?), hub-mounted taters and low-KE cowl mounted machine guns possibly.
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depends on the ballistics of the round and how far below the sight the guns are. I doubt theres any wing fired rounds that are dropping at d600 (vickers 40mm perhaps?), hub-mounted taters and low-KE cowl mounted machine guns possibly.
I'm not sure what you mean by this but I can tell you regardless of the gun type,the round only rise to the pipper,they never go above it. This is how it's modeled in AH,RL is slightly different.
:salute
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You do not need convergeance if you just train your bullits better.
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If you gave me a banjo, I still couldn't hit the cow.
109f-4 guns baffle me... :headscratch: Love the plane but can't hit a thing with it.
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I'm not sure what you mean by this but I can tell you regardless of the gun type,the round only rise to the pipper,they never go above it. This is how it's modeled in AH,RL is slightly different.
:salute
This isn't true. The rounds DO go above the pipper, dependant upon how you set your convergence. In order to get your rounds to cross above the LoS in AH, the trick is to set your convergence in as CLOSE AS POSSIBLE, which is counter-intuitive to most people.
The trajectory of the rounds in AH is about as spot-on as could be compared to RL. Especially when it comes to the .50's, which I've spent GOBS of time testing.
With wing mounted .50's set your convergence in to 150yds, and your rounds will be flying at around 5 feet ABOVE the pipper/LoS at 300 yds, 10ft above it at at 600 yds, and won't fall back into line with the pipper/LoS until around 1000yds.
I originally thought as you are (that the rounds would not go above the pipper) but after I figured out the errors I was making during testing I see that they actually do. The center ring of the dot-target is 20 feet in diameter, so if you hold a steady aim at the center of the ring, and use the center of the pipper as the zero-point I think you'll see what I mean.
The distance the guns are mounted (in feet) is what confuses people about the trajectory patterns in AH. Everyone is used to the distance a gun is mounted below a scope (in inches), and tries to make comparisons based on that. It's a matter of scale. The trajectory is shaped as it should be, it just looks wrong because the scale is so much different.
In order to get the trajectory to appear as we expect it should, HTC would have to model trajectory incorrectly.
With a rifle in RL, sighting-in at 600yds would cause the bullets to arch well above the LoS, while in AH doing so would cause the trajectory to remain below the LoS, which is correct.
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If you gave me a banjo, I still couldn't hit the cow.
109f-4 guns baffle me... :headscratch: Love the plane but can't hit a thing with it.
Get in close. When you can't possibly get any closer, then let him have it!
Simple enough, really. Getting kills in a 109F is more about self restraint and getting the kill shot rather than spraying. If you well and truly have the shot, the enemy dies in some 20 cannon round (expended, not all hit). Plus sundry 7mm (I always fire both for full effect)
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P51D 375,400,425 crossed to create multiple convergences along the patterns if i need to shoot closer or further (which i try very hard not to)
aka inner guns at 425 center guns 400 outer 375.
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This isn't true. The rounds DO go above the pipper, dependant upon how you set your convergence. In order to get your rounds to cross above the LoS in AH, the trick is to set your convergence in as CLOSE AS POSSIBLE, which is counter-intuitive to most people.
The trajectory of the rounds in AH is about as spot-on as could be compared to RL. Especially when it comes to the .50's, which I've spent GOBS of time testing.
With wing mounted .50's set your convergence in to 150yds, and your rounds will be flying at around 5 feet ABOVE the pipper/LoS at 300 yds, 10ft above it at at 600 yds, and won't fall back into line with the pipper/LoS until around 1000yds.
I originally thought as you are (that the rounds would not go above the pipper) but after I figured out the errors I was making during testing I see that they actually do. The center ring of the dot-target is 20 feet in diameter, so if you hold a steady aim at the center of the ring, and use the center of the pipper as the zero-point I think you'll see what I mean.
The distance the guns are mounted (in feet) is what confuses people about the trajectory patterns in AH. Everyone is used to the distance a gun is mounted below a scope (in inches), and tries to make comparisons based on that. It's a matter of scale. The trajectory is shaped as it should be, it just looks wrong because the scale is so much different.
In order to get the trajectory to appear as we expect it should, HTC would have to model trajectory incorrectly.
With a rifle in RL, sighting-in at 600yds would cause the bullets to arch well above the LoS, while in AH doing so would cause the trajectory to remain below the LoS, which is correct.
I stand corrected sir! I forgot about wing mounted guns doing that! I tend to fly central mounted guns. I should have stated that as I just went through this testing with another player.
Mostly I was responding to the statement that the highest part or the trajectory is the half way point on convergence.
Mntman,thx for the more elaborate explanation.
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If you are a good shot, converge on a point with your 50cals. If you find it hard to hit with precision you might find that staggered will grant you more chance of hitting. That's all I have in the subject.
Ironically, I converge on a point even though I suck at aiming these days too, but I keep the point convergence because when I do hit occasionally it does the job I expect.
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P51D
Gun barrel(s) 38" average vertical distance relative to gunsight center level line of sight.
Game testing:
Convergence 300 yards.
385mph TA - holds spinner center leveled to Offline target center or equal to leveled on jacks.
GcTc - Distance on target between gunsight center and target horizontal red line center.
DGc - Bullet impact point relative to the gunsight center.
DTc - Bullet impact point relative to the target horizontal red line center.
Range - Target distance in yards. All other values in Mil.
Range-----GcTc-----DGc-----DTc
50--------(+34)----(-20)----(+15) <---1Mil @ 50yds = 1.7 inches
100------.(+27)----(-10)----(+17) <---1Mil @ 100yds = 3.6 inches
150------.(+25)-----(-5)----(+19) <---1Mil @ 150yds = 5 inches
200------.(+23)-----(-3)----(+20) <---1Mil @ 200yds = 7 inches
250------.(+22)-----(-2)----(+21) <---1Mil @ 250yds = 9 inches
300------.(+21)------(0)----(+22) <---1Mil @ 300yds = 11 inches
350------.(+20)-----(+1)---.(+20) <---1Mil @ 350yds = 12.5 inches
400------.(+20)-----(+1)---.(+20) <---1Mil @ 400yds = 14 inches
450------.(+20)------(0)----.(+20) <---1Mil @ 450yds = 16 inches
500------.(+20)-----(-1)---.-(+19) <---1Mil @ 500yds = 17.5 inches
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My kills have significantly improved after I set them all the same, 400 for me works the best. IMO :salute
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With my normal high closure vs con, I set my 7.7mm in an A5 to 600 and 20mm to 400 , gives them time to start turning after 7.7mm hit to get better defection shots with the 20mm, I never use tracers.
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not using tracers isn't worth the degraded lethality . It will surprise an unsuspecting 2 weeker, but not much beyond that.
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not using tracers isn't worth the degraded lethality . It will surprise an unsuspecting 2 weeker, but not much beyond that.
:headscratch: They're the same....
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:headscratch: They're the same....
by degraded lethality I meant all the shots missed.
Manurin for example was much more dangerous when he had the tracers on.
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by degraded lethality I meant all the shots missed.
Manurin for example was much more dangerous when he had the tracers on.
Ah, I see. From my own experience, no tracers helped my aim at close ranges (under 400) a lot. After two or three sorties, you get a "feel" for the bullet and know where it's going to hit. Whereas with tracers on, I felt like I was handicapping myself because I couldn't resist the urge to "walk" the tracers in, wasting ammo. Just something I can't get used to and it might not only be me, so I encourage others to try both settings on for a few sorties. :aok However, I still haven't gotten used to the tater's flight path beyond 400. Anything I hit (if I even fired at all) beyond 600 is pure luck or I spent 20+ rounds gauging the trajectory.
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yeah well if you use the tracers to aim your 30mm you're doing it wrong...but with 50cals it's another story IMO
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If the guys for real thought the "spot" principle best, it's good enough for me. Single impact point, more damage. If you are a terrible shot then maybe spread out convergence along with spray and pray works better.
No tracers, single convergence point is the most effective
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yeah well if you use the tracers to aim your 30mm you're doing it wrong...but with 50cals it's another story IMO
I use the tracers with the 30mm to aim at faraway targets 400+. Basically, I sacrifice the ability to aim at long range for more accuracy at close range. Sometimes I wish we could have tracers for the 13mms but not the 30mm.
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This is like asking a bar full of patrons which beer is the best. They are equaly skilled at getting lit with their favorite brand because thats what they drink most of the time.
I find some times depending on the map, with the P51D I have to move my convergence between 275-350 to increase my kill probability. Who knows....some maps have more going on in the background than others possibly eating up some of my processing. Or it's a bad night on the internet. On the nights that the first two Texas routers in my PingPlot are not acting up, anything I point at 400 and closer, then pull the trigger goes boom. When those routers or just one of them are acting up, many of the sight pictures where I pulled the trigger previously, the cons don't go boom. More likely I'll get assists and even have to adjust my convergence to improve my assists to late kill messages.
It's kind of hard not to notice these things after playing this game for 10 years.
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P-47 is the only aircraft in which staggering works IMO, I've had this discussion 5+ years ago, still is the ONLY aircraft I stagger or have outside 350 (350/375) for my staggering.
I have tried this in all my 47's for the same reason you say you stagger yours. Yes, with 8 .50's you are still landing an awful lot of rounds over a small area and it will be sheer volume casue damage. Buuuuut, at the same time, I no longer do this because I have found that when all my guns are set to 400 that I can make the red guy go bye bye quicker.