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Special Events Forums => Scenario General => Topic started by: Fencer51 on May 23, 2012, 09:00:08 PM

Title: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Fencer51 on May 23, 2012, 09:00:08 PM
(http://www.51hangar.net/fencer/DGSCAR2.jpg)

Ok the rules are posted at...

http://www.ahevents.org/events/scenarios/current-or-next-scenario.html

Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: cactuskooler on May 23, 2012, 09:59:47 PM
It seems the grade school survived BoG.  We'll get it this time!
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Krusty on May 23, 2012, 10:43:59 PM
Perhaps I've missed it in the lenghty rules, but I don't recall an explanation of how/where/when the F5Es will be put to use. I presume damage assessment, but was curious for clarification.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: kilo2 on May 26, 2012, 03:38:28 PM
I think the no re arm rule for the allies is going to negatively impact the event.

I understand why it is there but for game play I recommend that there be at least 1 rearm for allied planes. I have been on the axis side and toward the end of the frame things really heat up and I think this would really cut into that.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: perdue3 on May 26, 2012, 03:49:02 PM
lol
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: kilo2 on May 26, 2012, 03:57:49 PM
I don't know what is funny. It seems like a rule that would be me harmful then helpful. More targets=more kills. If you can keep more planes in the event then you can have more fights. Unless fights is something you don't want.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: perdue3 on May 26, 2012, 09:55:14 PM
I say do whatever you can to give us a disadvantage. We need a challenge anyway. That comment has nothing to do with what Sukov said.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Stampf on May 26, 2012, 09:56:44 PM
...
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Guppy35 on May 26, 2012, 10:54:40 PM
I say do whatever you can to give us a disadvantage. We need a challenge anyway. That comment has nothing to do with what Sukov said.

Complain to your CO since he's part of the design team.  LOL if you weren't complaining Perd, you wouldn't be happy :)

Let me rephrase this.   We seem to have failed miserably at doing things right for you Perdweeb over the years and I feel like despite the other folks who seem fine with how things are shaping up, we'd be remiss if we didn't address your concerns.

What can the Scenario Team do to make your experience more enjoyable? 
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: killrDan on May 26, 2012, 11:16:42 PM
What can the Scenario Team do to make your experience more enjoyable? 

Hmmm...I was thinking like auger your planes into the nearest herd of sheep.  :devil
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Guppy35 on May 26, 2012, 11:18:58 PM
Hmmm...I was thinking like auger your planes into the nearest herd of sheep.  :devil

I thought of that, but Perd would complain we were avoiding the fight. :)
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: ROC on May 26, 2012, 11:22:37 PM
Keep on em Perdue, you got em flustered  :D 

 :neener:
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: perdue3 on May 26, 2012, 11:39:05 PM
Complain to your CO since he's part of the design team.  LOL if you weren't complaining Perd, you wouldn't be happy :)

Let me rephrase this.   We seem to have failed miserably at doing things right for you Perdweeb over the years and I feel like despite the other folks who seem fine with how things are shaping up, we'd be remiss if we didn't address your concerns.

What can the Scenario Team do to make your experience more enjoyable? 

Chill bro. By the way, Sukov complained, not I. Yell at him and single him out, leave me alone.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Guppy35 on May 26, 2012, 11:40:26 PM
Keep on em Perdue, you got em flustered  :D 

 :neener:

LOL don't kid yourself.  We've got Kilo2 with us. We've got the inside scoop on old Perd.

Don't you remember that discussion where we could only have one of them win and we flipped for it?  Sukov won, and we designed the scenario so Perd would have no chance? :)
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Guppy35 on May 26, 2012, 11:42:09 PM
Chill bro.

I'm downright Icy I'm so chilled :)

Haven't enjoyed myself this much in a long time in AH :aok
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Tank-Ace on May 26, 2012, 11:44:15 PM
So the allies get the F5E Tiger II? Seems a bit unfair  :D.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Guppy35 on May 26, 2012, 11:52:47 PM
Chill bro. By the way, Sukov complained, not I. Yell at him and single him out, leave me alone.

Actually he made an observation.  You complained.  BIG difference.

And I've actually been sitting very quietly.  Haven't yelled at anyone :)

OK you go back to polishing your 109 and I'll go back to polishing my Mustang.  :aok
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Tank-Ace on May 26, 2012, 11:58:41 PM
Spamming for post count, are you Guppy?


As far as KN is concerned Sukov is a defector untill the close of the scenario. But hes still part of the squadron, so we reserve the right to give him crap without interference  :neener:.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Guppy35 on May 27, 2012, 12:08:10 AM
Spamming for post count, are you Guppy?


As far as KN is concerned Sukov is a defector untill the close of the scenario. But hes still part of the squadron, so we reserve the right to give him crap without interference  :neener:.

Not until you figure out what an F-5E is :aok

And be careful with Sukov.  Be glad it's just me giving you grief.  If we turn the Jug drivers loose there is no telling what kind of trouble there might be.... :noid
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: perdue3 on May 27, 2012, 12:12:04 AM
What did I complain about? I havent even read the damn rules yet. Just found something comical so I posted "lol."
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: kilo2 on May 27, 2012, 02:15:42 AM
Just think of it like this.

You are an allied pilot who makes a run with the bombers and you come home because of fuel or ammo and land. You just gave up a life to do your job.

So you have a bunch of pilots with one life who go back out to hunt. They get killed and its over for them. They did nothing wrong in their first life lived survived and they still lose a plane.

At the end of the frame you have very few allied planes and a lot of bored Axis pilots. I am not viewing this from any side.


As for the getting hell Jager you have to fly once and a while to give hell  :noid
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Fencer51 on May 27, 2012, 02:41:55 AM
Not going to happen Kilo.  8th AF pilots never landed in Europe, rearmed, and went back.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: kilo2 on May 27, 2012, 02:57:40 AM
Not going to happen Kilo.  8th AF pilots never landed in Europe, rearmed, and went back.

Never air spawned at 20,000 ft either.

Oh and I missed the part where there was a giant no fly zone over Europe.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Guppy35 on May 27, 2012, 03:05:23 AM
Never air spawned at 20,000 ft either.

Oh and I missed the part where there was a giant no fly zone over Europe.

Not to worry.  You'll have plenty of ammo in that Jug of yours :aok
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Fencer51 on May 27, 2012, 03:19:56 AM
Never air spawned at 20,000 ft either.

Oh and I missed the part where there was a giant no fly zone over Europe.

No, but they did enter European airspace at that alt or greater.. and the no fly zone is allied territory in Oct/Nov 44... and due to time restraints a necessary safe zone for returning pilots to land at.

Now, before you ' point' it out why don't you do some research and explain the second sortie for the Allies.  Why would there be more fighters inbound..  where do they come from, how was escorting done?
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: kilo2 on May 27, 2012, 03:28:59 AM
No, but they did enter European airspace at that alt or greater.. and the no fly zone is allied territory in Oct/Nov 44... and due to time restraints a necessary safe zone for returning pilots to land at.

Now, before you ' point' it out why don't you do some research and explain the second sortie for the Allies.  Why would there be more fighters inbound..  where do they come from, how was escorting done?

The humongous no fly zone so bombers can land makes sense and having them land in Europe is okay but god forbid you rearm. That is just not historical.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Fencer51 on May 27, 2012, 03:34:17 AM
 Nor necessary.  Its unfair to the LW and the landing bit doesn't effect the history, rearming would.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: kilo2 on May 27, 2012, 03:40:47 AM
Well we will see how it goes I guess. When I fly axis I would rather have a bunch of cons to chase throughout the frame. As an new allied pilot the thought of doing a job like escorting making it back to lose a plane and life is somewhat discouraging.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Guppy35 on May 27, 2012, 04:02:21 AM
Well we will see how it goes I guess. When I fly axis I would rather have a bunch of cons to chase throughout the frame. As an new allied pilot the thought of doing a job like escorting making it back to lose a plane and life is somewhat discouraging.

You will definitely get a different view from an escort pilots seat.  I guess it's the difference in having to deflect the attack instead of being the attacker.  It get pretty intense, but there will be more flying time if for no other reason then the US fighters have the legs.  Last DGS some of my 38s put down after 3+ hour flights.  The LW guys will sortie many more times as they are over home.

One of the hopes is folks on either side get an idea of the obstacles both sides had to face
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Flossy on May 27, 2012, 04:42:08 AM
Show up time is incorrect for London - 2:30 pm Eastern is 7:30 pm UK, 8:30 pm CET.  :)
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: DrBone1 on May 27, 2012, 08:45:18 AM
So wait Allied A/C cant rearm anywhere?
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Guppy35 on May 27, 2012, 09:37:20 AM
You gents have been flying LW too long.  8th AF fighters did not land on the continent, rearm and go back.   The flights were too long. Escorts were staggered to keep a steady flow of escorts with the bombers.

Since the LW is on defense and over their home turf they have the advantage of multiple sorties and rearming.  It makes the challenge for the escorts tougher, which in reality it was
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Spikes on May 27, 2012, 09:40:05 AM
Well we will see how it goes I guess. When I fly axis I would rather have a bunch of cons to chase throughout the frame. As an new allied pilot the thought of doing a job like escorting making it back to lose a plane and life is somewhat discouraging.
Being someone who flew in the 56th in P47D-11's all the way up to M's, you won't need to rearm. I'd be surprised if you used even 3/4 of your bullets.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: killrDan on May 27, 2012, 12:50:01 PM
So wait Allied A/C cant rearm anywhere?

It's not too late to come back home my friend!

The candy those Allied dogs are passing out is not as sweet as it looks.  Come back home and we'll treat you to some real German chocolate and cocoa!

<S>

Dan
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: DrBone1 on May 27, 2012, 01:41:32 PM
It's not too late to come back home my friend!

The candy those Allied dogs are passing out is not as sweet as it looks.  Come back home and we'll treat you to some real German chocolate and cocoa!

<S>

Dan
:lol I am afraid the American ways are far more convincing, Although I may end up discoing on my RTB to reup under the first sortie.  :noid

I kid but seriously I will only be doing each frame with 1 life so this no rearm rule is going to be a problem.

I guess I will roll another life.  :cry
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Flossy on May 27, 2012, 01:53:54 PM
Show up time is incorrect for London - 2:30 pm Eastern is 7:30 pm UK, 8:30 pm CET.  :)
It just occurred to me that this is the time of year when Daylight Savings ends so thought I'd better check the time differences.  Looking at the time converter given, Daylight Savings ends in the UK on 28 October but not until 4 November in the US; therefore, for one week only, our show up time on 3 November will 6:30 pm.  The last weekend we will be back to 5 weeks difference.  We need to remember this nearer the time or a lot of us will show up late!   :O
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Jenks on May 29, 2012, 06:39:44 PM
Being someone who flew in the 56th in P47D-11's all the way up to M's, you won't need to rearm. I'd be surprised if you used even 3/4 of your bullets.

You flew with the 56th in WWII !?!   
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Brooke on May 29, 2012, 07:56:08 PM
For any folks who want to see what the 1st DGS was like (from the bomber point of view) or what the very-similar Battle Over Germany was like (from a LW fighter point of view):

http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/200710_derGrosseSchlag/derGrosseSchlag.htm

http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201102_battleOverGermany/battleOverGermany2011.htm
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: perdue3 on May 31, 2012, 09:34:42 PM
You gents have been flying LW too long.  8th AF fighters did not land on the continent, rearm and go back.   The flights were too long. Escorts were staggered to keep a steady flow of escorts with the bombers.

Since the LW is on defense and over their home turf they have the advantage of multiple sorties and rearming.  It makes the challenge for the escorts tougher, which in reality it was

Please do not refer to Luftwaffe as LW. It is confusing with Main Arena, thanks.

Say Luft, Axis, or German.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Krusty on May 31, 2012, 10:14:46 PM
Say whut?

LW is the long-held abbreviation in AH and in other flight sims, in scale model communities and in other references/sites.

Everyone calls the arena in AH the "MA" or the "LWA" -- nobody calls it the LW.


I think we're safe in avoiding confusion on that front.



P.S. Did we ever get the recon rules added to DGS2 rules? I was curious about the details of recon work.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: ROC on June 01, 2012, 12:40:00 AM
Krusty, not sure what you mean by recon rules added.  Recon is something the sides are going to have to figure out on their own.  Why a rule?  I personally plan on having a recon system setup, and counting on the Allies to forget to go scouting  :lol
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Krusty on June 01, 2012, 01:36:11 AM
Krusty, not sure what you mean by recon rules added.  Recon is something the sides are going to have to figure out on their own.

Well there was no mention of that. No mention of it anywhere, other than order-of-battle. See, that's what I wanted to know :)

Thanks!
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Melvin on June 03, 2012, 10:45:54 AM
Perhaps I missed it in the writeup, but will bombers be using manual calibration (like in AvA) or auto calibration (like LWA)?

Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Fencer51 on June 03, 2012, 12:33:28 PM
Hmm... good question.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Flossy on June 03, 2012, 06:58:58 PM
Auto I hope!  Though I suppose manual is ok with enough notice.  Nothing worse than discovering its manual at the moment of calibration!   :lol
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: SEseph on June 04, 2012, 08:45:19 AM
Auto I hope!  Though I suppose manual is ok with enough notice.  Nothing worse than discovering its manual at the moment of calibration!   :lol

While I am on the Axis side and should be rooting for manual as it would be better for us, I think Auto calibration is the way to go. There are many who have never, ever tried the manual method and while I think it would be great for immersion, I don't think it would be conducive to the enjoyment of the scenario for many members of the Allied side. If the bombers get a handful of walk-ons, it would become even worse as these poor souls would, for the most part, have no idea what to do.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Brooke on June 04, 2012, 11:11:14 AM
In my opinion, all special events should use what the main arena uses.  If you don't do that, you end up using something that is a critical mechanical task of bomber pilots but that they can't use or practice in the normal part of the game.  In addition, many walkons won't be able to hit much, and since all past scenarios used auto calibration, it is more difficult to estimate balance, how many bombers it takes to take out a particular target, etc.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: ROC on June 04, 2012, 11:31:06 AM
There are a couple of ways to consider this.  

The event itself is going to be a brawl getting to target, and I'd hate to see the bomber guys pound their way through the wall of Axis that they may encounter, only to have to wave off target because they missed a calibration window.  It takes a long time to calibrate for a drop, under fire and trying to evade and shoot back is difficult for the best of the bombers.  We do want people to actually enjoy the event and focus on the Fight.  Personally, if we screw up and let them through to target, they deserve to hit it.  That should be there reward for a well fought defense of their bomber groups.  

On the other hand, they have 4 months to practice, train and drill for this, and perhaps could spend the time learning something new as part of the experience, however that puts the walkons in a bad spot but might also encourage them to get on board the next one early.

Both approaches have merit.

As the Axis CO, I agree with the other Axis posters and my XO, I have no problem with either concept and will defer to the Allies to make that call. It won't affect our efforts, and we'd like you to have fun.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Hajo on June 04, 2012, 02:14:11 PM
There are a couple of ways to consider this.  

The event itself is going to be a brawl getting to target, and I'd hate to see the bomber guys pound their way through the wall of Axis that they may encounter, only to have to wave off target because they missed a calibration window.  It takes a long time to calibrate for a drop, under fire and trying to evade and shoot back is difficult for the best of the bombers.  We do want people to actually enjoy the event and focus on the Fight.  Personally, if we screw up and let them through to target, they deserve to hit it.  That should be there reward for a well fought defense of their bomber groups.  

On the other hand, they have 4 months to practice, train and drill for this, and perhaps could spend the time learning something new as part of the experience, however that puts the walkons in a bad spot but might also encourage them to get on board the next one early.

Both approaches have merit.

As the Axis CO, I agree with the other Axis posters and my XO, I have no problem with either concept and will defer to the Allies to make that call. It won't affect our efforts, and we'd like you to have fun.


How magnanimous of you gents!  I'll be sure to only use 4 of my 8 .50 cals on the first 109/190  :lol
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: SEseph on June 04, 2012, 05:29:09 PM

How magnanimous of you gents!  I'll be sure to only use 4 of my 8 .50 cals on the first 109/190  :lol

You, sir, are too kind!  :aok
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: ROC on June 04, 2012, 05:42:22 PM
Quote
How magnanimous of you gents!  I'll be sure to only use 4 of my 8 .50 cals on the first 109/190

Now, don't get carried away.  The bombers aren't getting to target so it's really a nice gesture, nothing more  :D
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Brooke on June 04, 2012, 06:01:24 PM
I promise, if I take any high-g snapshots, to roll a d6 and, if it's a 6, not to use my guns thereafter in the frame (to simulate a jam).  Unless I forget to bring my d6.  ;)
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Guppy35 on June 04, 2012, 07:51:28 PM
Be sure and clearly mark the hotels and beer halls for us.  We don't want to damage the places we are going to use when we get to town :)
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Kermit de frog on June 04, 2012, 10:23:51 PM
Now, don't get carried away.  The bombers aren't getting to target so it's really a nice gesture, nothing more  :D

 :rofl
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: ROC on June 04, 2012, 11:16:05 PM
Kermit :)

So, you flying bro? 
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Guppy35 on June 04, 2012, 11:23:29 PM
Kermit :)

So, you flying bro? 

He's got a secret assignment and is part of the Allied staff :)
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: ROC on June 05, 2012, 12:44:25 AM
Then BBQ Frog Legs are back on the menu  :D
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Bruv119 on June 10, 2012, 08:19:29 AM
Say Luft, Axis, or German.
I think he just swung me to Axis,  made me chuckle.   

Love ya Perdweeb   :rofl     :aok
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: ROC on June 10, 2012, 11:53:17 AM
We'd love to have you Bruv :)  We have a good selection of planes, even a squad sized D9 group  :cheers:
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: DrBone1 on June 10, 2012, 12:00:08 PM
More Targets to shoot at.  :aok
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Melvin on June 13, 2012, 08:04:44 PM
I'm sorry if I missed this, but will we be flying with friendly collisions and friendly fire on?

 :salute
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Wildcat1 on June 13, 2012, 08:48:11 PM
Friendly fire yes, friendly collisions no
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Fencer51 on June 20, 2012, 10:59:05 AM
Main arena settings, you damage yourself if you hit your buddy.  Collisions same as MA.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Melvin on June 22, 2012, 10:40:30 PM
I was wondering because it occurred to me that with the strong emphasis on tight formations, friendly collisions might make things more interesting.


 :salute
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: kilo2 on June 22, 2012, 10:48:32 PM
Main arena settings, you damage yourself if you hit your buddy.  Collisions same as MA.

With the emphasis on being realistic why would you keep killshooter on?
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Flossy on June 23, 2012, 04:19:07 AM
I was wondering because it occurred to me that with the strong emphasis on tight formations, friendly collisions might make things more interesting.
I struggle enough with formations without the added pressure of friendly collisions, so it would have the opposite effect on me - I'd deliberately keep well away from others!   :eek:

With the emphasis on being realistic why would you keep killshooter on?
I can't understand the need for killshooter to be on as in most other special events killshooter is usually off?   :headscratch:
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: kilo2 on June 23, 2012, 04:41:12 AM
I struggle enough with formations without the added pressure of friendly collisions, so it would have the opposite effect on me - I'd deliberately keep well away from others!   :eek:
I can't understand the need for killshooter to be on as in most other special events killshooter is usually off?   :headscratch:

It seems silly to leave it off. You have to be careful in a bomber not to shoot your friend you have to be careful diving in as a fighter to not hit your bombers.

They really dealt with those problems and with "realism" being championed in this event I can't see a reason why it wouldn't be off.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Fencer51 on June 23, 2012, 08:37:25 AM
Same reason it was off in BoG, the bomber gunners did not shoot down the other planes in their formations in real life.  Leaving it on they will.
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Flossy on June 23, 2012, 11:07:21 AM
OK makes sense - I have been known to accidentally shoot friendlies in past scenarios.  :)  But pleeeeease leave Friendly Collisions off!   :pray  ;)
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: SEseph on June 23, 2012, 11:45:54 AM
Same reason it was off in BoG, the bomber gunners did not shoot down the other planes in their formations in real life.  Leaving it on they will.

I thought gunners in the bombers couldn't hurt friendlies. In the MA if you shoot up other bombers, you don't get hit yourself. Clearification anyone?
Title: Re: DGSII Rules Writeup Posted
Post by: Flossy on June 23, 2012, 02:36:07 PM
I thought gunners in the bombers couldn't hurt friendlies. In the MA if you shoot up other bombers, you don't get hit yourself. Clearification anyone?
They can't with Killshooter on, as in the MA and as in this scenario.  In past scenarios, bombers have been lost by gunners hitting friendlies with Killshooter off.  Hope that makes sense!  :)