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General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: alpini13 on June 07, 2012, 06:19:22 PM

Title: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: alpini13 on June 07, 2012, 06:19:22 PM
  I thought it was a good post.  the question is which sides  do each country have........it should be    GERMAN,ITALIAN,JAPAN      vs   ENGLAND,RUSSIA   vs   AMERICAN            WHY?   each would have good air, good ground, and cv aircraft....althought the   english side would still need some developement and so some stand ins would be needed for it to work.     each month the aircraft and gv gruops would rotate and so in a three month period you would have the opportunity to use all the aircraft and vehicles.   your squad could stay on same country...or move each month if they like to fly certain rides      if smaller nations aircraft were added,thier plane set would go into one of the three groups........like maybe france,finland or china to americans.   something like that.   and so......  add the glouster meteor,sea hurricane,seafire 3,ju-52,he-177   and we can REALLY have some fun
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: Lusche on June 07, 2012, 06:27:46 PM
it should be    GERMAN,ITALIAN,JAPAN      vs   ENGLAND,RUSSIA   vs   AMERICAN            WHY?   each would have good air, good ground, and cv aircraft...


Really?

Let's look at the Cv's..


Axis
A6M (2,3,5)
B5N
D3A

vs

Allies
F4U-1
F4U-1a
F4U-1D
F4U-C
F4U-4
F6F
TBM
SBD
Seafire


The axis would simply wiped off the seas without any doubt. particularly if you keep in mind the bomber disparity too:

Ar 234
Ju 88
G4M
Ki-67

vs

B-17
B-24
B-26
B-29
Lancaster



It's almost the definition of unbalanced.

That's why Axis vs Allies setup do work only in special events, with a careful and elaborated setup of additional rules and victory conditions, strictly governed by referees. In the everything goes MA with thousands of player, it simply does not work.
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: Melvin on June 07, 2012, 06:44:41 PM
You forgot the F4F.

Never under-estimate the F4F.

 :mad:


Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: Lusche on June 07, 2012, 06:46:33 PM
 Just FYI. I looked up the usage data (K+D) for Axis & Allied planes in the MA in all of 2011. The ratio was 7-3. And that was in a a blanced environment...

So with the info provided above, you can imagine what side the player would gravitate to. And this migration would speed up the more imbalanced the numbers are getting.
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: Ack-Ack on June 07, 2012, 06:50:48 PM
Not only is there an unbalance in the aircraft for each side, the other suggestion of a rolling plane set isn't a way to attract new players.  Players will not play if they are forced to fly something other than what they wish, nor would players wait a month or three to be able to fly the ride of their choice. 

Ask yourself this, if a rolling plane set is such a good idea, why didn't HiTech carry over that feature to AH from Warbirds? 

ack-ack
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: Wiley on June 07, 2012, 06:54:18 PM
Just FYI. I looked up the usage data (K+D) for Axis & Allied planes in the MA in all of 2011. The ratio was 7-3. And that was in a a blanced environment...

You've got that reversed, right?  7 allied-3 axis?

Wiley.
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: Lusche on June 07, 2012, 06:55:15 PM
You've got that reversed, right?  7 allied-3 axis?

Wiley.

errr, yes.  :o

7 allies 3 axis
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: Wiley on June 07, 2012, 07:30:24 PM
No offense intended. :). It's just that sometimes the numbers show womething other than what I am expecting, and I found that counterintuitive.

Wiley.
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: tuton25 on June 07, 2012, 08:01:24 PM
The Axis side wouldn't be so unbalanced for bombers if planes like the DO-17, HE-111, and DO-177 where added
The nation rotation could if there where 3 rooms set up (so if you wanted to fly american you would go to room 1, british/russian room 2, axis room 3)
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: Lusche on June 07, 2012, 08:02:46 PM
The Axis side wouldn't be so unbalanced for bombers if planes like the DO-17, HE-111,

You are joking... pls tell me you are joking.

The Do-17 balancing the B-29 or B-17?
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: tuton25 on June 07, 2012, 08:17:47 PM
I'm no saying it would be perfect.....
Just make things a little better
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: Hazard69 on June 08, 2012, 05:51:17 AM
You are joking... pls tell me you are joking.

The Do-17 balancing the B-29 or B-17?

Hmm, would it balanced if the axis had formations and the allies did not?

Problem is, that in the war, the two sides had completely different needs, and different solutions to meet those needs.

Problem with bringing that to MA is: we dont have the different needs, and solution from all three sides are always the same:
Get the cheapest bomber with the biggest bombload and go suicide dive it into whatever u want to kill or bomb and bail. Lancs/B24s/B17s usually fall into this category. How many even try to make it back after dropping their ords?

How often do we see Ki67s, bettys, the bostons or event the B25s used?
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: Melvin on June 08, 2012, 06:10:59 AM


Problem with bringing that to MA is: we dont have the different needs, and solution from all three sides are always the same



And THAT'S why the Axis V Allies arena is so awesome.


 :salute

Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: icepac on June 08, 2012, 07:55:58 AM
Except that it's more of a special events arena than a true axis vs allies.
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: tuton25 on June 08, 2012, 08:13:19 AM


How often do we see Ki67s, bettys, the bostons or event the B25s used?

Thats kinda the point of this whole thing is to make them more usefull
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: Karnak on June 08, 2012, 09:08:34 AM
Thats kinda the point of this whole thing is to make them more usefull
How would making them grossly outnumbered make them more useful?

Bombers:

Ar234
G4M1
Ju88A-4
Ki-67

vs

B-17G
B-24J
B-25C
B-26B
B-29A
Boston Mk III
Lancaster Mk III
Mosquito Mk XVI


Strike aircraft:

D3A1
Ju87D-3
Ju87G-2

vs

A-20G
B-25H
Hurricane Mk IId
Il-2 3M
SBD-5


While the Axis would have the classic N1K2-J and Bf110G-2 mix for base attack, the Allies P-38s, P-47s, P-51s, Mossies and Typhoons would be far more effective.

The places the Axis wins is in hyper advanced units with the Ar234, Me163 and Me262 and in GVs with the Ostwind, Panther V G, Tiger I, Tiger II and Wirbelwind.  The lack of a good bomber pretty much means that they cannot capitalize on the lack of Allied Me163s.
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: hitech on June 08, 2012, 09:50:58 AM
If I remember correctly we have an arena just for the purposes of Axis vs Allied. Maybe the OP can ask to join the cm team of the AvA and get the setup he seeks.

HiTech
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: Nathan60 on June 08, 2012, 09:56:14 AM
Except that it's more of a special events arena than a true axis vs allies.

Says the dude with exacly one sortie in the AVA?  Some of the best fights I have had are in there. Would be nice to see more  squads making thmselves a 'AVA night' like some recent squads have. Tuesdays are usually pretty busy but it  woudl be nice if more nights were busier this would make the arena less "Special eventy" as hopefully there would be a regualar population in there .
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: jimson on June 10, 2012, 02:12:12 AM
Except that it's more of a special events arena than a true axis vs allies.

Out of curiosity, what would you consider a true axis vs allies arena?
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: Karnak on June 10, 2012, 08:47:21 AM
Thats kinda the point of this whole thing is to make them more usefull
It would not make them useful.  It would break the game.

In order to make such a system work HTC would need to add aircraft that saw limited or no service and forcibly balance sides, which means, by Lusche's numbers, 2 out of 10 players would be forced into Axis aircraft when they wanted Allied aircraft.

Required additions:

Aircraft:
A7M2 'Sam': Japanese carrier fighter intended to replace the A6M, 7 prototypes built, no service
B7A 'Grace': Potent Japanese carrier bomber and torpedo plane, 114 built, all carriers lost before entering service
G8N1 'Rita': Japanese heavy bomber that never got past prototype stage due to the end of the war
H8K2 ''Emily': Japanese flying boat that could be used as a heavy bomber with good defenses, 112 built, heavy use
He177A-5: German quasi-heavy bomber, about 1100 built, light use due to persistent reliability issues
Meteor Mk III: British jet fighter, few built, no air-to-air combat versus manned aircraft
P.108: Italian heavy bomber, 24 built, light use

Note:  Allies possession of the B-29A would hopefully be balanced by the Axis possession of the Me163B

GVs:
M26 Pershing: American heavy tank, only 20 saw combat in WWII per wiki
Skink: Canadian quad 20mm AA vehicle build on a Sherman chassis, per wiki 1 saw combat
Boats:
S-Boot: German fast torpedo boat
Allow Axis fleets to have proximity fuses or remove proximity fuses from the Allies.  For fleet survivability the prior is better for gameplay, for historical accuracy the latter is better.
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: tuton25 on June 11, 2012, 02:21:25 AM
It seems to me that you have lost sight of the opening argument
The british/russians would be seperated from the americans
To me it seems the all the axis needs is a heavy bomber and all things are pretty much equal
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: Rino on June 11, 2012, 03:09:46 AM
     I have a tough time seeing how limiting our choices would improve gameplay.  This is not a WW2 simulator.
Title: Re: assigned sides for the battlefield evolution question
Post by: Karnak on June 11, 2012, 08:37:30 AM
It seems to me that you have lost sight of the opening argument
The british/russians would be seperated from the americans
To me it seems the all the axis needs is a heavy bomber and all things are pretty much equal
Really?

The extremely vulnerable Lancaster is the match of the B-17G, B-24J, B-29A and (G8N1, H8K2, He177A-5 or P.108 {pick one})?  The Mosquito Mk VI (the only long ranged fighter on your British/Russian side) is a match for the Ki-84-I, P47N, P-51B, P-51D and Ta152H-1?  The M4A3(76) and Sherman VC 'Firefly' are the match of the Tiger II?

No, I think you are very wrong.