Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on October 25, 2012, 05:37:54 PM
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Hello,
Which plane have you found to turn the tightest at high speed below 15k?
High speed = say 400 mph+
My guesses are possibly P-51 or F4Us.
Thanks for your input,
Slade :salute
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At 400+ the blackout is the limiting factor, not the stall. The one what can decelerate the fastest, turns the quickest, but also loses E the fastest.
Btw at 400-250mph, i would vote for the pony, due to its high speed flaps, but the difference is very minor.
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P-47, 190, P-51, P-40, etc. all turn well at high speed.
However, as brody noted, at those speeds, you're either going to be limited by compression, or blackout.
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P-47, 190, P-51, P-40, etc. all turn well at high speed.
However, as brody noted, at those speeds, you're either going to be limited by compression, or blackout.
you forgot overstressing
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You can use the dive flaps in the P-38L to tighten up high speed turns.
ack-ack
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You can use the dive flaps in the P-38L to tighten up high speed turns.
ack-ack
How do the dive flaps help the airplane turn?
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How do the dive flaps help the airplane turn?
At higher speeds the P-38's flap causes the nose to pitch up and this doesn't necessarily have to be in a dive for it to work. Of course, the pitch up effect diminishes as you might slow down. Using auto trim will also tend to negate the effect as auto trim will try to compensate for nose level.
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Typhoon, seems to be capable of pulling crazy amounts of lead at high speed :aok
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At high speeds (350 TAS+) the 190A-5 and D-9 are not to be underestimated in the turn.
At the bottom of the pile at high speeds is the A6Mx. It can't take the stress, but get it below 300 TAS and it can turn on a dime.
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Unless the aircraft's controls get too heavy to pull a blackout at 350mph, as on the A6M series, all aircraft in AH turn the same at that speed. A 6 G turn in a Spitfire Mk XVI at 350mph is exactly the same line as a 6 G turn in an Me410 at 350mph. If the line was a tighter turn the Gs would be higher and if it were a looser turn the Gs would be lower.
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Unless the aircraft's controls get too heavy to pull a blackout at 350mph, as on the A6M series, all aircraft in AH turn the same at that speed. A 6 G turn in a Spitfire Mk XVI at 350mph is exactly the same line as a 6 G turn in an Me410 at 350mph. If the line was a tighter turn the Gs would be higher and if it were a looser turn the Gs would be lower.
Wrong, super Brewster turns at 20Gs. :noid :rolleyes:
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Wrong, super Brewster turns at 20Gs. :noid :rolleyes:
A 20 G turn would be a 20 G turn for all aircraft though. I know you are joking, but it really is the pilot's G tolerance that limits it.
Heh: "A 20 G"
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At higher speeds the P-38's flap causes the nose to pitch up and this doesn't necessarily have to be in a dive for it to work. Of course, the pitch up effect diminishes as you might slow down. Using auto trim will also tend to negate the effect as auto trim will try to compensate for nose level.
But do the dive flaps allow a pitch angle that you can not achieve using elevator alone? A turn is limited in game by blackout or stall. If the elevator control can get you to either of those limits the flaps do not help you.
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At max G (6) the instantaneous turn has the same rate of turn, but the flight path will be different due to loss of speed. Slower speed while still maintaining the same G load meas a smaller turning circle. At high speeds and G, due to the inability of the planes to maintain a flat turn at constant speed, the flight path does not look like a circle - it is more of a spiral like a snail shell.
The AH pilots are limited at 6G, so this is what the plane can maintain till the speed drops below the critical speed at which the plane cannot pull 6Gs anymore. From that point on, the limit is the maximum lift of the plane relative to its weight - generally this means that a low wingloading is preferable for maintaining the turn RATE. High wingloading means that in order to maintain the 6Gs, the planes needs higher AoA and hence it produces more drag - and slows down faster. At high speeds in unsustained turns, low wingloading is "wasted" since the wings are not producing their max potential lift anyway due to the pilot limits. And here comes the distinction between the turn rate and turn radius. The plane that can slow down faster will enjoy the smaller turning circle. The plane that can maintain 6Gs longer will enjoy a better turning rate over time. Who will "out turn" who depends entirely on the geometry of the battle. This is why high wingloading planes can still be good dogfighters - as long as the fight is at high speeds.
From the planes mentioned in the above posts, the P47 and Typhoon dump a lot of energy very fast in a turn. Responsive elevators, a dragy airframe and the ability to pull very high AoA without snap stalling are good features for this purpose. This means that they can pull a very tight "corner" (the shape of the flight path) without much rate-of-turn disadvantage, as long as the speed is high enough. But after 90 to 180 degrees, the have lost so much speed that they are now at a severe disadvantage against most planes if the turning continues and they cannot trade alt to gain speed again. However, that initial fast and tight turn can place them at an advantageous position for the next move. This is how Jugs can beat spitfires in a fight, but they have to kill it in 1 or 2 moves or they will become disadvantaged.
In R/L, jugs were designed to dogfight at high alts. There, the option to trade alt for speed is almost always open. This meant that the jug could pull one or two tight corners and then dive to regain speed before it got caught too slow to turn. At high alts dogfights did not typically involve very elaborate ACM. Pilots would try a move or two and if that did not go well, the next thing would have been a split-S and a screaming dive to the safety of the clouds. Jugs are kings of the all-or-nothing corners, fast to roll in the split-S and excellent divers - this is why they did so well up high in the ETO, in spite of being initially ridiculed as 7 ton milk jugs.
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The jugs engine is what gives it its biggest adv at high alt. The monster turbo super charger is its saving grace... no other plane's performance curve tails off like the jugs (which is near linear).
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But do the dive flaps allow a pitch angle that you can not achieve using elevator alone? A turn is limited in game by blackout or stall. If the elevator control can get you to either of those limits the flaps do not help you.
Probably. I'm not an expert on the P-38, but if the dive flaps just made use of existing controll surfaces and moved no more than their usual range of motion, well then they wouldn't be dive flaps, now would they?
The question is though, how much of an advantage in turn rate do you get for how big of a drop in speed. If you can pull an additional 1.5 degrees per second, but it would drop you down to 200mph inside of 2 turns, it wouldn't be worth it.
You probably couldn't get guns on before you decelerated too much, at which point your opponent would then procede to beat the f**k out of you with superior E.
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Jager, you dont get it.
Its like a chess game, your every move can be used against you.
You must find the balance between burning more E and turn tighter (within the 6g limit, til the stall becames the limiting factor) and maintaining your E. The key is to be just a little bit slower than your opponent.
Some planes have very good tools for this: see the 190s large rudder, the pony's, jug's 400mph combat flaps, the 38s dive flaps, etc. Still, theese are only nuances, and if you cant get a killer shot on the opponent within those 3-4 turns til you slow down enough to reach the stall, its just a normal stallfight again.
Still, i have been called a cheater many times, how can a Dora outturn a lala? The answer is, no way. I just burned more E and could pull more degrees/second when i was just a bit slower, in a blackout-limited situation of course.
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... This is why high wingloading planes can still be good dogfighters - as long as the fight is at high speeds.
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nice explanation without having to pull out the dreaded E-M diagrams :aok
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Jager, you dont get it.
Its like a chess game, your every move can be used against you.
You must find the balance between burning more E and turn tighter (within the 6g limit, til the stall becames the limiting factor) and maintaining your E. The key is to be just a little bit slower than your opponent.
Some planes have very good tools for this: see the 190s large rudder, the pony's, jug's 400mph combat flaps, the 38s dive flaps, etc. Still, theese are only nuances, and if you cant get a killer shot on the opponent within those 3-4 turns til you slow down enough to reach the stall, its just a normal stallfight again.
Still, i have been called a cheater many times, how can a Dora outturn a lala? The answer is, no way. I just burned more E and could pull more degrees/second when i was just a bit slower, in a blackout-limited situation of course.
You kinda missed what I meant. If you slow down to 200mph, when your opponent is doing 350, thats really too large of a difference for you to be able to compete in an E fight. You want to be slower, yes, but you don't want to get 150mph slower either. Even if you have a plane known for its zooms and hanging on the prop (say, a Ki-84), it still won't be able to compensate for that big of a difference in energy if your opponent decides to take the fight verticle.
So, you need to assess whether using the dive flaps (or any flaps, for that matter) will give you a large enough benefit, and do so fast enough to make your move, before the fight shifts.
I just used a large difference to exagerate the point, nothing more.
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you forgot overstressing
If you're heavy and at high speeds (with ord or still have a lot of fuel onboard), listen and treat those stress creak sounds for the warning that they are.
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Even if you have a plane known for its zooms and hanging on the prop (say, a Ki-84), it still won't be able to compensate for that big of a difference in energy if your opponent decides to take the fight verticle.
I would not myself count good zoom climbs as one of the Ki-84's attributes.
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I would not myself count good zoom climbs as one of the Ki-84's attributes.
Hmm, it has above average acceleration, maybe if you compared it to a La-7 or K4, then it wouldn't be a very "good" attribute, but compared to most other planes, it will keep up or out climb them all.
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But not by virtue of its ability to zoom. What you are describing is a good sustained climb rate, which is different. For a good zoom you need a high mass and / or a very slippery aerodynamic shape and in my observations many aircraft will out zoom the Hayate. Regarding hanging on the prop, it takes considerably more skill to do that in the Hayate than in a late model Bf109, or a P-38 for example.
Not being picky, just trying to make a contribution.
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Of all the planes I tested, that while not the entire plane-set include all the common fighters, the Yak-9U is the best zoomer. Tests were started at 0 alt and 300 mph level. The range of the result for most planes was relatively small. Zooming 100 ft higher than your opponent will not save you from his bullets. How the plane handles in the zoom and recovers has greater importance in most cases. The rest is just initial energy difference when starting the maneuver, not so much the plane itself.
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Also a significant factor with the Ki-84 is altitude, above 7k the supercharger loses effectiveness so that even a Spitfire Mark IX out climbs it, believe it or not.
Both the Spitfire Mark VIII and the Mark XVI out climb the Hayate at all altitudes by a good margin.
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Whatever. The Ki-84 can play the energy game at lower altitudes, which is where most fights take place, and thats whats important for my comment.
The point is that, even if you ARE in something thats great in the verticle, you still can't work against a 150mph speed differential.
Exactly which planes are used in the hypothetical fight isn't really important, so long as one is better in the verticle than the other.
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Whatever. The Ki-84 can play the energy game at lower altitudes, which is where most fights take place, and thats whats important for my comment.
The point is that, even if you ARE in something thats great in the verticle, you still can't work against a 150mph speed differential.
Exactly which planes are used in the hypothetical fight isn't really important, so long as one is better in the verticle than the other.
You don't seem to think distinguishing between sustained climb and zoom climb is important.
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You don't seem to think distinguishing between sustained climb and zoom climb is important.
In the scenario I was refering to, its really not.
A 109K, a spit 14, a 190, a P-38, P-47, or a Yak-9U all are incapable of reaching a higher altitude in a climb strait up at 90 degrees AoA with full throttle and WEP than the Ki-84, if they're at 200mph when the Ki-84 is at 350mph.
It could be a 262 at 200mph and a 190 at 350mph, or an A6M at 200mph and a P-40C at 350mph and the outcome would remain the same; the faster plane ends at a higher altitude than the slower plane, and the faster plane is then in a possition of advantage over the slower plane.
Now clearly each plane's ability to fight from a possition of disadvantage, or to escape the fight is different, and also varies with the altitude the fight is occuring at, but the point remains the same; a slight advantage in turn is not worth slowing down to 150mph below your opponent's speed.
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I don't know what you fly or what your style is, but to me it's not much of a fight what you are describing above (I just picked up on inaccurate descriptions of the Hayate's capabilities), a 150 mph speed difference in the vert is more of one plane completely outclassing another in energy state. I don't think Debrody was discussing that situation.
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I don't know what you fly or what your style is, but to me it's not much of a fight what you are describing above (I just picked up on inaccurate descriptions of the Hayate's capabilities), a 150 mph speed difference in the vert is more of one plane completely outclassing another in energy state. I don't think Debrody was discussing that situation.
This.
Whats obvious, thats obvious and i did not meant to go circles around it.
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And I was explaining to him that we were discussing the same thing. We just had a bit of miscomunication (very easy on the internet)
You jump in, saying the Ki-84 isn't good at a zoom climb (which is rather irrelvent, since its still good in the verticle, which was one of the main points of my scenario).
I respond saying its not that relevent if the Ki-84 is good at zoom climbs, because its still good in the verticle.
And now we're here.
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I don't play Aces High but I just thought I'd come and interject my pointless and irrellevant opinion into your discussion and then argue about it
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At high speeds (350 TAS+) the 190A-5 and D-9 are not to be underestimated in the turn.
At the bottom of the pile at high speeds is the A6Mx. It can't take the stress, but get it below 300 TAS and it can turn on a dime.
Nothing like getting a Zero above you, entice them into a high speed dive and then reverse them. You then have moments to make something happen. They begin pulling on the stick and turn like a city bus. As their speed decelerates you know they are going to gain turning ability then bam...they suddenly turn on a dime once they decelerate below the sweet spot. After that it's a bit like chasing a falling leaf.
Boo
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You jump in,
Yes it's a forum I thought that was the idea.
I respond saying its not that relevent if the Ki-84 is good at zoom climbs, because its still good in the verticle.
But in a different way to a zoom climb. Even if it is irrelevant you stated it incorrectly. If you are going to discuss technical issues it's important to get the details right.
Also it's vertical. A verticle is something different.
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Frankly, I don't really care if my spelling is less than perfect, so long as I get my point across. If I give grammar and spelling fascists like coombz a heart attack... well, so much the better.
And I was attempting to simplify it as much as possible, hence the exaggerated speed difference of 150mph.
I don't play Aces High but I just thought I'd come and interject my pointless and irrelevant opinion into your discussion and then argue about it
Well, glad that you recognize that your opinion is both pointless and irrelevant, especially since I was discussing things with Debrody before nrshida even posted in this thread.
Oh, also, whether or not I play Aces High is entirely irrelevant, since I still know what I'm talking about.
*EDIT* Coombz, maybe you wanna keep your nose out of a serious discussion. Your role in AH seems to be as a professional arse.
Looking at your post history, there doesn't seem to be a single serious post about the game in the first three pages of your "recent posts" page. Certianlly none where you're trying to offer what you know in a way thats relevent to the OP.
Unlike you, I actually attempt to contribute constructively, and offer what I know when its asked. So, please kindly take your sarcasm and negativity somewhere it's wanted.
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Frankly, I don't really care if my spelling is less than perfect, so long as I get my point across.
I know it's difficult for you to grasp, but if you want to get your point across then you should probably try to use the correct words, as nrshida pointed out verticle means something completely different
And actually, if you DID know what you were talking about, you would be right and whether you play AH or not would be irrelevant. But actually, you just like banging on the keyboard pretending to be knowledgeable. You're like bustr but with a smaller vocabulary (but with equally terrible spelling and grammar).
I suppose you have an excuse for that, being a barely educated child, whereas bustr is a grown man and doesn't get off so easily
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As their speed decelerates you know they are going to gain turning ability then bam...they suddenly turn on a dime once they decelerate below the sweet spot. After that it's a bit like chasing a falling leaf.
Boo
Hehe, I liked that falling leaf metaphor :aok
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I know it's difficult for you to grasp, but if you want to get your point across then you should probably try to use the correct words, as nrshida pointed out verticle means something completely different
And actually, if you DID know what you were talking about, you would be right and whether you play AH or not would be irrelevant. But actually, you just like banging on the keyboard pretending to be knowledgeable. You're like bustr but with a smaller vocabulary (but with equally terrible spelling and grammar).
I suppose you have an excuse for that, being a barely educated child, whereas bustr is a grown man and doesn't get off so easily
The definition of verticle does not make sense in the context in which I used the word. Given that the definition of vertical does make sense in that context, and the spelling is highly similar, people will be able to understand.
This is evidenced by the fact that nobody has been unable to follow the argument, and nobody has questioned why I used a word in a way that is nonsensical.
Spelling and grammatical errors aside, the content of my posts are most often accurate. You may not like them, but they are provably true. And you probably don't like that very much, either.
You're quite clearly a dedicated arse. Your posts seem to primarily be little more than derogatory remarks, often implying a lower than average intelligence, to your selected target. After looking through your post history, I gave up around page 10 looking for a post that is serious, constructive, and positive. Or even a post that is both positive and either serious or constructive.
Theres also an unusually (but, sadly, not surprisingly) high number of "you stupid American" posts in your history as well.
You seem to primarily frequent the O'Club, where you procede to give forth with your unflattering, sarcastic, and generally negative view of specific people, video games, America, the general population, various institutions, any level of faith in Government, economics, human decency, and America.
In short, you seem to be a rather unhappy, likely bitter, man, with a bleak and depressing view of the world, save for jolly 'ole England, and former colonies sans the U.S.A, and (just taking a shot in the dark here), anything that's culturally relevent after you graduated college, if not earlier.
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wow you read through 10 pages of O'Club troll posts? :rofl and wrote 12 angsty paragraphs on this thread for me..gg
I should put you on the angry nerd list with madhogg
btw I highly doubt you read anything written by me glorifying 'jolly old england', that's just something you've made up in your own head (much like your delusions of intelligent contribution to this topic)
oh and additionally I never went to 'college' or university, I got to where I am today through sheer hard work and natural brilliance ;)
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Hello,
Which plane have you found to turn the tightest at high speed below 15k?
High speed = say 400 mph+
My guesses are possibly P-51 or F4Us.
Some food for thought (have been posted earlier as well):
F4U
(http://s7.postimage.org/76yr7qknf/F4_UG.jpg)
P-51D
(http://s9.postimage.org/ynx2pqf1b/P_51_D_gload.jpg)
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Youre pwned, coombzy, give it up man... :lol
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yes I am very bitter and depressed :old: woe is me life is so hard etc
E-detective tank ace found the truth about me while searching through my post history in a rage after I made fun of him
keep up the good work and excellent posts sir :aok
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wow you read through 10 pages of O'Club troll posts? :rofl and wrote 12 angsty paragraphs on this thread for me..gg
Yes, I did read up on your rather poor record. Unlike some, I actually do some checking before casually making false acusations.
And at least you've admited to being a troll. Its not much, but at least it shows you aren't completely hopeless.
I should put you on the angry nerd list with madhogg
Go for it, you're still a troll, and you're still an arse.
btw I highly doubt you read anything written by me glorifying 'jolly old england', that's just something you've made up in your own head (much like your delusions of intelligent contribution to this topic)
You're from (or are at least in) New Zealand, your profile prominently displays part of the union jack. You've commented repeatedly on how European schools are (in your own view) superior to those of American schools.
Given that England didn't really have a colony in Europe, it would be safe to assume you've at least spent time in the country. I've also never seen you post negative comments toward the country. Nor towards Australia, New Zealand, or Canada for that matter.
Its not really that big of a streach to make that guess.
oh and additionally I never went to 'college' or university, I got to where I am today through sheer hard work and natural brilliance ;)
For all your bluster about your good grammar and spelling, you actually display very little intellegence, certianly not enough to make you 'brilliant'. If you actually had anything intellegent to say, you wouldn't constantly resort to ad hominem attacks, and would contribute to the community in some meaningfull way.
Hell, I may not be actively playing right now, but I'm still a more supportive and contributing member of the community than you are.
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For all your bluster about your good grammar and spelling, you actually display very little intellegence,
Intelligent enough it seems to consistently manipulate those members of this community whose ego surpasses their insight.
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your profile prominently displays part of the union jack.
It's my squad's avatar/logo thingy *shrug*
You've commented repeatedly on how European schools are (in your own view) superior to those of American schools.
Really? I don't remember ever making such a post. Maybe in an offhand manner while laughing at you for being worse at writing the English language than 90% of this board's European posters...I think I said something like "If you were my kid I'd be ashamed of you" or something of the sort. Is that it? (Are your parents ashamed of you?)
I really don't know anything about European schools vs American schools, so I call BS. If I've done it 'repeatedly' as you claim, you should be able to provide at least one link or quote to prove me wrong :) I'll be waiting...
I've also never seen you post negative comments toward the country.
I don't think you did your homework well enough then, I've posted plenty of negative things about the UK. If I thought it was perfect I'd probably still be there.
However, if I were to humour you in this line of reasoning, I've also never posted any negative comments about Ethiopia...does that mean that I think Ethiopia is better than America?
you wouldn't constantly resort to ad hominem attacks
It would be an ad hominem attack if I called you a donkey raping **** eater
It is not an ad hominem attack for me to refer to you as a badly educated child
I like to think that I avoid ad hominem posts (or strawman arguments) in my posts in the O'Club and elsewhere - generally they aren't required because people do such a good job of making themselves look stupid that I just have to point it out, rather than go on a name calling spree.
But if you have some links to posts I've made where I am randomly name calling with nothing to back it up, then by all means link them.
Finally I'd just like to note that my comment...
"I don't play Aces High but I just thought I'd come and interject my pointless and irrelevant opinion into your discussion and then argue about it"
...obviously struck a nerve with you, seeing as this thread is now completely off topic because of you getting upset about it and wanting to 'get back' at me
If I'm such an obvious troll and an 'arse' (not to mention bitter and depressed and whatever else it was), then it would be much more sensible just to ignore me when I make fun of you ;) You haven't learned that lesson yet after all this time...although I noticed that you DID make a big effort with your spelling and grammar starting a month or two back (or at least just started using spellcheck), despite saying that you don't care about such things.
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It's my squad's avatar/logo thingy *shrug*
Okay, whatver.
Really? I don't remember ever making such a post. Maybe in an offhand manner while laughing at you for being worse at writing the English language than 90% of this board's European posters...I think I said something like "If you were my kid I'd be ashamed of you" or something of the sort. Is that it? (Are your parents ashamed of you?)
I really don't know anything about European schools vs American schools, so I call BS. If I've done it 'repeatedly' as you claim, you should be able to provide at least one link or quote to prove me wrong :) I'll be waiting...
IIRC, first one wasn't even directed at me.
And I'll give you the link if I ever bother to go looking for a handfull of specific posts amongst your many trolls. Convincing you that you were an arse in the past isn't really worth my time. If I find some other reason to go digging them up, then you'll get them.
I don't think you did your homework well enough then, I've posted plenty of negative things about the UK. If I thought it was perfect I'd probably still be there.
Like I said, I quit after page 10. Even by then, I had seen enough to know that anything constructive would be one of the few gems buried in all the drivel.
However, if I were to humour you in this line of reasoning, I've also never posted any negative comments about Ethiopia...does that mean that I think Ethiopia is better than America?
If you had been to Ethiopia, and it was a more common topic of conversation, it very well might.
It would be an ad hominem attack if I called you a donkey raping **** eater
It is not an ad hominem attack for me to refer to you as a badly educated child
I like to think that I avoid ad hominem posts (or strawman arguments) in my posts in the O'Club and elsewhere - generally they aren't required because people do such a good job of making themselves look stupid that I just have to point it out, rather than go on a name calling spree.
Hardly. If its a personal attack (or even just an argument against me personally, rather than my argument), then its ad hominem.
But if you have some links to posts I've made where I am randomly name calling with nothing to back it up, then by all means link them.
I don't have to, you did it yourself in this very post.
Finally I'd just like to note that my comment...
"I don't play Aces High but I just thought I'd come and interject my pointless and irrelevant opinion into your discussion and then argue about it"
...obviously struck a nerve with you, seeing as this thread is now completely off topic because of you getting upset about it and wanting to 'get back' at me
Not really. The earlier argument kind of petered out, once I had cleared things up with Debrody, and explained to nrshida why sustained vs zoom climb was irrelevant to my argument.
If I'm such an obvious troll and an 'arse' (not to mention bitter and depressed and whatever else it was), then it would be much more sensible just to ignore me when I make fun of you ;) You haven't learned that lesson yet after all this time...although I noticed that you DID make a big effort with your spelling and grammar starting a month or two back (or at least just started using spellcheck), despite saying that you don't care about such things.
You are an obvious troll, and you are most definitely an arse. You quite clearly derive enjoyment from stirring things up (this very argument is evidence of that fact).
I'm actually not all that carefull with spelling or grammar. Verticle is actually not recognized by the spell check, and so if I had bothered to be carefull, the mistake would have been caught. I don't really know if my grammar improved between 2 months and now, or you simply were not looking as hard for mistakes, although personally I suspect the latter.
In any case, the only reason I even bothered to respond to you is that your initial post was based on a logical fallacy that personally I find very annoying. And comically, I only find it annoying because other trolls have employed it to derail perfectly good discussions before.
If I can nip that asinine crap in the bud... well worth the effort expended.
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IIRC, first one wasn't even directed at me.
And I'll give you the link if I ever bother to go looking for a handfull of specific posts
I think you must be thinking of a different poster, I've never 'commented repeatedly on how European schools are better than American schools'. :headscratch:
With you it's a lot easier to believe you're just plain wrong rather than maliciously lying, so I'll let it pass ;)
Hardly. If its a personal attack (or even just an argument against me personally, rather than my argument), then its ad hominem.
So am I to believe that your claim that I am unhappy and bitter (made up in your own head because I make fun of you and others on the internet) is not an ad hominem attack that invalidates your argument, BUT my claim that you are a badly educated child (colloquially known as 'cold hard facts', backed up by your age and inability to write English to the standard of many who have learned it as a 2nd language) is?
It's a circular argument to be sure...I take the piss out of you, you say you don't care and that I am just a grammar nazi or bitter or whatever, I take the piss out of you some more...we could be here all week ;>
Not really. The earlier argument kind of petered out, once I had cleared things up with Debrody, and explained to nrshida why sustained vs zoom climb was irrelevant to my argument.
Ah yes, the earlier argument where you stated the the KI-84 is known for it's zoom climb and ability to hang on it's prop (?? lol), and then continued to argue with Mister KI-84 himself, nrshida, claiming that he was misunderstanding you and that you were right all along :)
You are an obvious troll, and you are most definitely an arse.
So is this an ad hominem attack or not? Are you a hypocrite, or is my little brain just incapable of following the heights of logic that your stellar intellect is capable of reaching in this artful dissection of my character (which has been elegantly summed up, repeatedly, as as that of 'a troll and an arse' )?
You quite clearly derive enjoyment from stirring things up (this very argument is evidence of that fact)...
...In any case, the only reason I even bothered to respond to you is that your initial post was based on a logical fallacy that personally I find very annoying. And comically, I only find it annoying because other trolls have employed it to derail perfectly good discussions before.
If I can nip that asinine crap in the bud... well worth the effort expended.
If you think that the way to nip trolls in the bud is to write a boat load of paragraphs arguing with them and telling them that you find them very annoying then...
Oh, well, never mind. Maybe you'll figure it out for yourself one day...
I'm off to chill on the beach with my gorgeous girl and wonderful son (but I'll make sure to be bitter and unhappy while I'm there). We can resume this tomorrow if you still haven't learned better :aok
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So am I to believe that your claim that I am unhappy and bitter (made up in your own head because I make fun of you and others on the internet) is not an ad hominem attack that invalidates your argument, BUT my claim that you are a badly educated child (colloquially known as 'cold hard facts', backed up by your age and inability to write English to the standard of many who have learned it as a 2nd language) is?
I've said no such thing. Did I post an ad hominem attack? Yeah, I was slightly pissed.
And what is your reasoning for saying I'm inept in the use of the English language?
For all your talk of how poor I am, your attack is based on a few grammatical errors (and many only in formal writing), and a few words I consistently misspell.
Hell, the very fact that I haven't botched my subject-verb agreement, save through typos, and haven't messed up the irregular verbs since kindergarden puts me ahead of many, perhaps most, non-native English speakers.
Whats more, this is one of the least formal methods of communication possible. The only ones more informal than this I can think of off the top of my head are texting and IM'ing.
Ah yes, the earlier argument where you stated the the KI-84 is known for it's zoom climb and ability to hang on it's prop (?? lol), and then continued to argue with Mister KI-84 himself, nrshida, claiming that he was misunderstanding you and that you were right all along :)
Zoom climb was technically incorrect. But, yes, by and large, the Ki-84 is known for being good at hanging on the prop. Not class of the field, but still good.
And yes, the 'master of the Ki-84' did misunderstand that exactly why the Ki-84 is good in the vertical is entirely irrelevant to the point I was making.
So is this an ad hominem attack or not? Are you a hypocrite, or is my little brain just incapable of following the heights of logic that your stellar intellect is capable of reaching in this artful dissection of my character (which has been elegantly summed up, repeatedly, as as that of 'a troll and an arse' )?
I never said I hadn't or wouldn't make ad hominem attacks, especially when there is actually some base of truth in them; something you seem to have difficulty identifying.
That you somehow came to the conclusion that I had suggests the latter of the two possibilities.
If you think that the way to nip trolls in the bud is to write a boat load of paragraphs arguing with them and telling them that you find them very annoying then...
Oh, well, never mind. Maybe you'll figure it out for yourself one day...
I'm off to chill on the beach with my gorgeous girl and wonderful son (but I'll make sure to be bitter and unhappy while I'm there). We can resume this tomorrow if you still haven't learned better :aok
I took care of the "Tank-Ace doesn't play right now! He can't possibly have any idea what hes talking about, despite the 6 years of play prior to canceling his account" crap, now didn't I? And that was the primary purpose in replying to you.
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And what is your reasoning for saying I'm inept in the use of the English language?
For all your talk of how poor I am, your attack is based on a few grammatical errors (and many only in formal writing), and a few words I consistently misspell.
Hell, the very fact that I haven't botched my subject-verb agreement, save through typos, and haven't messed up the irregular verbs since kindergarden puts me ahead of many, perhaps most, non-native English speakers.
lol
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
I do agree with you about this being an informal method of communication though, it's for that reason that I let my standards slip a lot with regards to capitalization and full stops when posting here (and the additional reason that it's often a pain in the backside to edit posts on a phone/tablet).
Don't agree that you've taken care of the 'Tank Ace doesn't play the game but still sticks his oar in as if his opinion is any way relevant or sought after' thing, but I guess time will tell on that one :devil
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Zoom climb was technically incorrect. But, yes, by and large, the Ki-84 is known for being good at hanging on the prop. Not class of the field, but still good.
And yes, the 'master of the Ki-84' did misunderstand that exactly why the Ki-84 is good in the vertical is entirely irrelevant to the point I was making.
I didn't misunderstand, I simply didn't understand your point, which turned out to be contrived and uninformative anyway.
Frankly I think you didn't understand the difference between zoom climb and sustained climb at the start of this discussion, now I think you do, but you might consider being be a little less noodlesure in future. Youth :old:
Even 'masters of the Ki-84' may view themselves to be merely 'students of the Ki-84' and are always receptive to learning new things and listening to other people.
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'Noodlesure'? What a nonsense correction. :old:
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3 pages of (http://www.hummer4x4offroad.com/forum/images/smilies/icon%20slapfight.gif)
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3 pages of (http://www.hummer4x4offroad.com/forum/images/smilies/icon%20slapfight.gif)
yup, the way I like to start my day
popcorn?
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and you loved every minute of it :old:
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I didn't misunderstand, I simply didn't understand your point, which turned out to be contrived and uninformative anyway.
How is my point that you don't want to slow 150mph below your opponent's speed for a small advantage in turn rate in any way contrived?
Thats the point of the post which touched all this off. I explained what I meant to debrody, and then you and I began hashing things out about the sustained vs zoom thing.
Frankly I think you didn't understand the difference between zoom climb and sustained climb at the start of this discussion, now I think you do, but you might consider being be a little less noodlesure in future. Youth :old:
I knew the difference, I just didn't word my comment as well as I might have; I'm just as human, and just as suceptible to flaw as you or anyone else. But whatever, you probably won't believe me anyway, and whether or not I had a grasp of zoom vs sustained before this began is rather agressively irrelevent by this point.
Even 'masters of the Ki-84' may view themselves to be merely 'students of the Ki-84' and are always receptive to learning new things and listening to other people.
Wasn't intended as a jab at you sir.
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How is my point that you don't want to slow 150mph below your opponent's speed for a small advantage in turn rate in any way contrived?
It was contrived because you were making an obvious point that was only tangentially relevant to the discussion.
This isn't the Help & Training forum, there is no need to come along and post something that everyone already knows just because you like to try and sound knowledgeable.
To then begin arguing about it like everyone was somehow misunderstanding your very valuable contribution...well, you can see what prompted my original post :)
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It was contrived because you were making an obvious point that was only tangentially relevant to the discussion.
This isn't the Help & Training forum, there is no need to come along and post something that everyone already knows just because you like to try and sound knowledgeable.
Considering that I was responding to a question about if dropping dive flaps on the 38 increases your turning, its highly relevent.
I said I'm sure it would help, but it very well might not be worth the drop in speed you would take.
To then begin arguing about it like everyone was somehow misunderstanding your very valuable contribution...well, you can see what prompted my original post :)
Debrody did misunderstand; he essentially restated what I said, but just added that its fine, and sometimes advantageous to be a bit slower than your opponent. Shida admitedly didn't understand the point.
But damn, apparently we're not supposed to clarify around here :rolleyes:.
I swear coombz, its like you didn't even read the full topic.
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I guess I must've been person #3 to misunderstand you then...thereby proving my point about your inability to express yourself with written English *victory dance*
OK I'm just being silly now. But it was that or post the 'Master of the Obvious' image, and that was too much effort
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How is my point that you don't want to slow 150mph below your opponent's speed for a small advantage in turn rate in any way contrived?
I think you'll probably never know, as long as you prioritise asserting your correctness above taking the opportunity to learn something.
RTHolmes is right actually, another potentially interesting technical discussion reduced to childish argumentum ad infinitum. I think I shall pursue some of my other activities instead.
Good day :old:
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I think I shall pursue some of my other activities instead.
You'll go blind eventually :old:
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I have safety glasses :old:
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You'll go blind eventually :old:
That only happens when you play with your joystick too much! :joystick:
coombz,plz dont direct nonplayers to post in help in training,there's enough wrong imformation being spewed about in there now.
FYI the reduction in speed doesnt increase turn rate,it decreases the turn radius, also the "dive" flaps on the P38L arent dive flaps they are dive recovery flaps and only change the airflow around the tail. The flaps dont produce very much drag like you would find with real dive flaps.
YMMV.
:salute
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FYI the reduction in speed doesnt increase turn rate,it decreases the turn radius, also the "dive" flaps on the P38L arent dive flaps they are dive recovery flaps and only change the airflow around the tail. The flaps dont produce very much drag like you would find with real dive flaps.
YMMV.
:salute
The loss of speed comes from the nose pitching up, not the dive flaps themselves.
ack-ack
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That only happens when you play with your joystick too much! :joystick:
:rock
coombz,plz dont direct nonplayers to post in help in training,there's enough wrong imformation being spewed about in there now.
But but but...I didn't direct anyone to post in Help & Training, especially not non-playing knowitall Tank-Ace :)
:salute
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:rock
But but but...I didn't direct anyone to post in Help & Training, especially not non-playing knowitall Tank-Ace :)
:salute
Ahhh after rereading your post,indeed you didnt direct him! Heaven help the next generation.
:salute