Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Torquila on March 04, 2013, 06:51:31 PM
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- I wish for a loadout/gun package which leaves out the tailgun system. With bombers flying on average at 30k over strats, the 410 really needs the ability to lose a bit of weight.
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Was there a non-field modified version of the Me410 without the tail guns?
If so, this would be a nice addition. If not, welp, sorry but gotta suck it up and deal with it.
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I am :_(
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Was there a non-field modified version of the Me410 without the tail guns?
If so, this would be a nice addition. If not, welp, sorry but gotta suck it up and deal with it.
Yes there was,there was also a limited amount of single seaters made.
:salute
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It wasn't just removing the guns. The guns were a large system that took up most of the room in the tail. Not to mention the rear gunner that operated them, the armor for that gunner, the glass armor for that gunner to look through, etc.
On the handful (some 30 or so?) planes that were modified to have no tail guns they not only removed them but also removed the rear gunner, the rear seat, the rear windows, and faired the fuselage up to replace the "wings" that the gunner would aim out of left or right. They also did this to save weight for a high-alt boost system that was relatively unsuccessful and very heavy.
It would NOT make the 410 we have any better a dogfighter, as the weight would still be there (just from non-gun components). I personally think our 410 flight model is off, but I don't think it'll be updated for many years to come.
P.S. Because of all those changes, it couldn't be a hangar option. It would need to be an entirely new hangar selection. A subvariant.
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I am not looking for a dogfighter but I would like it if I could catch bombers a little easier :pray
"It would need to be an entirely new hangar selection" :_(
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The problem isn't catching bombers, really, but that bombers fly too fast in here. For ANY plane chasing them.
P.S. If you're of a mind to fire off your "BBs" to save weight and gain high alt performance, take the MG17 (7mm) option in the hangar. Why? Because those 7mm guns weigh a lot less than the 13mm guns, even after you drop the ammo. Some folks enjoy dumping the aft ammo, but I've had some on-again, off-again luck saving my butt by using them. I hesitate to dump them, but do on occasion. If you really want to save weight, mind the guns package you choose. The Mk103s are super effective, but heavier than the 4x20mm in total. Also, don't take WGrs... They're fun, but slow you down like a drag chute. You can load our Me410 out for high alt hunting, you just have to be careful about how you do it.
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Yes there was,there was also a limited amount of single seaters made.
:salute
Yes
II/ZG26 on their b-1s
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The problem isn't catching bombers, really, but that bombers fly too fast in here. For ANY plane chasing them.
I don't understand. Isn't this relative since all airplanes fly under the same rules?
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This is very similar to those bananas who dump all their Bf 110 rear gunner ammo thinking "it will turn better". :rofl
Suck it up cupcake. The Me410 is fast, just dont try to turn too much, climb in a hurry, and dont get intercepted by fighters. There is a reason the Me410 were quickly brought down from chasing bombers to dealing with Soviet ground forces on the Eastern Front. If by chance you do get your chance nothing in AH can compare to the devastation a Me410 can bring to bear on a set of bombers. Patience and due diligence is key when using a Me410 to hunt bombers. You need to have time. You need to take lots of fuel, and you NEED to be at the desired altitude. Also remember that the me410 is NOT a high altitude bomber hunter/interceptor. It really starts to such air after 25k.
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I don't understand. Isn't this relative since all airplanes fly under the same rules?
No, because pursuing fighters did not fly on max cruise settings. Escorting and patrolling fighters did, true, but not the fighters actively intercepting inbound bombers or the fighters defending those bombers. Intercepts would have been flown at 30 minute settings until combat was actively joined, perhaps throttled back to cruise settings for a period if you reached position with time to spare.
A squadron of twelve Hurricane Mk Is climbing into a cloud of He111s and Bf109s was not doing so on their max cruise setting.
Those He111s, on the other hand, stayed in cruise settings even as the Bf109s, Hurricanes and Spitfires flashed by them at MIL and even WEP power settings.
As to the "BBs", I've had my .303s save my bacon on multiple occasions in the Mossie. Several La-7s and one Bf110 have fallen to them, among others.
The Bf110 was an accident though, I actually had 700 rounds of 20mm when I attacked it, I just didn't have my cannons selected. The Lancaster formation I did that to was much less impressed than the Bf110 had been though.
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- I wish for a loadout/gun package which leaves out the tailgun system. With bombers flying on average at 30k over strats, the 410 really needs the ability to lose a bit of weight.
It wasn't just removing the guns. The guns were a large system that took up most of the room in the tail. Not to mention the rear gunner that operated them, the armor for that gunner, the glass armor for that gunner to look through, etc.
This is how it should have been designed in the first place. I have yet to find any evidence that a rear gunner in any plane could not have been replaced by a sack of potatoes. A rear gunner in a plane that is supposed to maneuver that is - from SBDs to Me110s.
Removing all that stuff must have saved quite a lot of weight. I would be happy to know what it did for performance. If I makes any real difference I am all for adding such a variant.
As to the "BBs", I've had my .303s save my bacon on multiple occasions in the Mossie. Several La-7s and one Bf110 have fallen to them, among others.
My aim is not good enough to land all the 303s on the same wing section and therefore it takes hundreds and hundreds of peas to shoot anything down with it. It is a lot of fun though. Took me nearly the entire 303 Mossie loadout to kill an A20, which I was hosing for several continuous seconds. The most satisfying was to kill a 109K4 with the Boston III fixed pea shooters after loosing the drones (another useless gunners example). It didn't break apart or anything - either ran out of fuel due to fuel leaks or a pilot wound.
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My aim is not good enough to land all the 303s on the same wing section and therefore it takes hundreds and hundreds of peas to shoot anything down with it.
On the Bf110 I got I drilled its #2 engine with .303s the whole way in and the wing separated just before I had to break off.
The La-7s and other single engined fighters tended to be death by a thousand cuts, or even the other guy stalling it and hitting the ground after I'd been peppering him for a good bit.
It is usually only viable in a one on one fight as it takes too long and you end up being picked if there are a lot of aircraft around. The Bf110 was in a big furball, but as noted I got him in one pass.
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My conclusion is that buffs fly too fast in formation in AH, and that's need to be changed, to reflect Real Life, specially in scenarios, maybe with the addition of having 4 drones instead of 2, and with max effective shooting range of 1k instead of 1.5k, again in scenarios.
In here 300mph buffs formations with capability of incapacitating attacking fighters 1.5k out are of a more rule than exception, if the pilot is a good gunner.
Its almost impossible to re enact the multiple attacks that happened in BOB, or US bomber attacks in here the way it did happened.
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Hey guys, the current bomber ecosystem is a totally different topic...
pls don't hijack :_(
I simply am trying to adapt the situation to provide more chances for the 410 to do its work. I love the tailgun and how effective it is; truely. I don't see the need to poo poo it like you guys do, there are plenty of victims of my tail gun who can attest to it and there would be plenty more if it actually shot straight.
The 410 is just as capable as the mosquito dogfighting if you have a split throttle and a liking of 25% and dts, I might go as far to say thar with a decent tail gunner, even more so.
But lets discuss the possible repecussions of such a configuration (without tail gunner) would actually have on the top speed, range and max altitude it might reach to find some substanciation of such a concept (even if it only be in our minds: Apparently it doesn't matter to HTC :D ).
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The 410 is just as capable as the mosquito dogfighting if you have a split throttle and a liking of 25% and dts
:rofl
No.
The Mosquito rolls better, climbs better, turns better, dives better and the guns, vs fighters, are a wash. So yes, the Me410 can dogfight just as well as the Mosquito...if the Mosquito is carrying 100% fuel and 1,000lbs of bombs and eight 60lb rockets while the Me410 is at its minimum gun configuration and at 25% fuel.
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Yes
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Yes
No.
Mosquito VI K/D ratio vs Me410 over the last four completed tours: 1.89
Me410 K/D ratio vs Mosquito VI over the last four completed tours: 0.53
157:
Mosquito VI:
Overall K/D ratio: 1.07
K/D vs Me410: 5
Me410:
Overall K/D ratio 0.56
K/D vs Mosquito VI: 0.2
156:
Mosquito VI:
Overall K/D ratio: 0.98
K/D vs Me410: 1.43
Me410:
Overall K/D ratio: 0.53
K/D vs Mosquito VI: 0.7
155:
Mosquito VI:
Overall K/D ratio: 1.04
K/D vs Me410: 1
Me410:
Overall K/D ratio: 0.67
K/D vs Mosquito VI: 1
154:
Mosquito VI:
Overall K/D ratio: 1.20
K/D vs Me410: 2.2
Me410:
Overall K/D ratio: 0.57
K/D vs Mosquito VI: 0.45
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The 410 is just as capable as the mosquito dogfighting if you have a split throttle and a liking of 25% and dts,
Since when do you need a split throttle to dogfight in a twin engined aircraft?
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Since when do you need a split throttle to dogfight in a twin engined aircraft?
You don't. It is pure placebo effect.
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Nice karnak, changing your message like that, real cool...
Yea, i know its a problem, the 410 has like 5 minutes of fight time like that (between bases) but unfortunately the moment you put 50% on it acts like it has 100% so its the only way you can get decent performance out of it.
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Delirium its not a placebo, it really makes a difference in at very low speeds (and pilot dependent). Thats like saying torque is a placebo.
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No.
Mosquito VI K/D ratio vs Me410 over the last four completed tours: 1.89
Me410 K/D ratio vs Mosquito VI over the last four completed tours: 0.53
157:
Mosquito VI:
Overall K/D ratio: 1.07
K/D vs Me410: 5
Me410:
Overall K/D ratio 0.56
K/D vs Mosquito VI: 0.2
156:
Mosquito VI:
Overall K/D ratio: 0.98
K/D vs Me410: 1.43
Me410:
Overall K/D ratio: 0.53
K/D vs Mosquito VI: 0.7
155:
Mosquito VI:
Overall K/D ratio: 1.04
K/D vs Me410: 1
Me410:
Overall K/D ratio: 0.67
K/D vs Mosquito VI: 1
154:
Mosquito VI:
Overall K/D ratio: 1.20
K/D vs Me410: 2.2
Me410:
Overall K/D ratio: 0.57
K/D vs Mosquito VI: 0.45
That means zero
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Nice karnak, changing your message like that, real cool...
Nothing wrong with editing a message. As it happens you replied while I was editing it. I am not sure why you took it as a personal insult though.
Yea, i know its a problem, the 410 has like 5 minutes of fight time like that (between bases) but unfortunately the moment you put 50% on it acts like it has 100% so its the only way you can get decent performance out of it.
It will still get eaten alive by a Mossie VI, pilots being equal.
That means zero
It doesn't mean everything, but it means a lot more than the empty claims it is data against.
The Mossie VI out performs the Me410 in literally every aspect of flight. They are not equals in a dogfight.
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Delirium its not a placebo, it really makes a difference in at very low speeds (and pilot dependent). Thats like saying torque is a placebo.
Defiantly works in the a20 :aok but that's another subject right?
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haha, not if it includes a bk5 ;-)
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Dual throttles provides no benefit for the Me410. Only in areas such as spin recovery or super-rare maneuvers like hammerhead wingovers (though I doubt the 410 can even do such a move) would the split throttle help. Split throttle doesn't stop torque. If you throttle back the inboard wing in a turn you lose that extra lift and stall out faster. It's detrimental.
As it stands now, the mosquito is by and far a better fighter than even the lightest 410 loadout. It's just the way it was modeled. However, kill-death ratios in the MA don't mean anything in regards to this. That's entirely subjective and not a controlled test. You can see this, however, by simply flying both regularly. One of the benefits of flying with Batfink is he draws you into the Mossie once in a while. I've got quite a few 8-kill sorties in the mossie (no reloads) when mixing it up. It's much more capable than the 410 at furballing, though not quite as good as a single engine plane would be.
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I agree it isn't controlled, but it was the only data I could draw out. I agree any time spent flying the two of them makes it obvious, hence my initial reply of:
" :rofl
No."
Some people seem way too tied up in personal validation based on what plane they like. The Mossie isn't better at furballing than very many planes, but the Me410 is one of them. I try to keep a realistic view of it.
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you are pretty much talking to yourself in that regard karnak...
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you are pretty much talking to yourself in that regard karnak...
You're one of the guys who claimed that the Me410 was as capable a furballer. Dunno, but that looks pretty self delusional to me.
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Anyone thinking the 410 stands a chance against a mossie has got to be kidding.
The Mossie turns much better and can deploy flaps at a higher speed not to mention it's about 25 mph faster on the deck.
I have spent some time flying both planes and there's no way the 410 can gain an advantage. It simply doesnt have the rate or radious of turn.
YMMV.
:salute
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Anyone thinking the 410 stands a chance against a mossie has got to be kidding.
The Mossie turns much better and can deploy flaps at a higher speed not to mention it's about 25 mph faster on the deck.
I have spent some time flying both planes and there's no way the 410 can gain an advantage. It simply doesnt have the rate or radious of turn.
YMMV.
:salute
Not to mention acceleration, roll rate, climb, or extreme boost from WEP. There is nothing the Me410 can do that the Mossi can't do better, save for carrying 2/500kg SAP bombs and hit bombers from 2k out. :aok
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K/D in the MA are usually skewed due to the different way in which the planes are used. Example: The 410 seem to be used much more than the mossie in air to ground and especially against GVs. If that assumption is corrent, then it likely means that the common Moss on 410 engagement is a Mossie attacking a base and finds a 410 that is defending its base, strafing GVs. This starts the fight in a very difficult position for the 410.
Now back to the single-seat 410. Does anyone have a photo of this? I mean, did they just kick out the gunner, ripped his seat out and dismantled the gun system, or did they also change the canopy and cockpit area? I mean, if the only thing that was achieved by that was reducing weight, then max speed will be little affected. However, if removing the turrets and changing the canopy/fuselage reduced drag, then this can have some impact on max speed. From the test De-Havilland did on the mossie prototype, a mossie gun turret would have cost about 15 mph. Reduced weight is still important and potentially we are talking about quite a lot of weight.
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Delirium its not a placebo, it really makes a difference in at very low speeds (and pilot dependent). Thats like saying torque is a placebo.
I've posted this before, I'll do it again.
1. Throttling down one engine to compensate for a missing wing, you can fly straight and level with this.
2. Great hammerheads, you can really squeeze every last bit of energy out of the plane and can reverse very quickly.
3. Immersion (AKAK quote).
4. Spin recovery.
5. Making great donuts on the runway.
6. Ability to roll the aircraft more quickly at the cost of energy.
7. Out of plane, last ditch efforts (cut one engine and roll it hard).
That said, I can guarantee that differential throttle controls get more Aces High pilots killed than any other control apparatus. Most of the time the offenders overcompensate or attempt to use it in a situation that requires E retention.
If you don't believe me, come into the TA and I'd be willing to show you why its use is widely over-rated.
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K/D in the MA are usually skewed due to the different way in which the planes are used. Example: The 410 seem to be used much more than the mossie in air to ground and especially against GVs. If that assumption is corrent, then it likely means that the common Moss on 410 engagement is a Mossie attacking a base and finds a 410 that is defending its base, strafing GVs. This starts the fight in a very difficult position for the 410.
Now back to the single-seat 410. Does anyone have a photo of this? I mean, did they just kick out the gunner, ripped his seat out and dismantled the gun system, or did they also change the canopy and cockpit area? I mean, if the only thing that was achieved by that was reducing weight, then max speed will be little affected. However, if removing the turrets and changing the canopy/fuselage reduced drag, then this can have some impact on max speed. From the test De-Havilland did on the mossie prototype, a mossie gun turret would have cost about 15 mph. Reduced weight is still important and potentially we are talking about quite a lot of weight.
Moot had all that imformation in another thread complete with pix but when I searched it I found most the pix of the singlee seaters are gone. IIRC the 30 odd airframes were built to be single seaters and all the extra rear stuff was eliminated,supposedly it meant a 4000 pound weight reduction but I doubt it was that much.
They even had a "special" canope that was different from the usual 410. I'm not sure if any were fielded with the GM1 kits and they were reported to only have a 20KM speed advantage over the twinseater.
:salute
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It wasn't just a new canopy. The rear fuselage fairing was extended forward. The entire aft seat was no longer there. See my previous post in this thread briefly outlining the changes and why it would need to be a different hangar entry.
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Probably the most famous example of the no-tailgun conversion, "Yellow 7," has a few photos floating around. Here are a couple:
(http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz63/krustacious/Me410%20scans/me410_notailguns2.jpg)
(http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz63/krustacious/Me410%20scans/me410_notailguns1.jpg)
You'll note that even though Yellow 7 has had the conversion, the next plane in the squadron behind it in the lineup has NOT had it. It clearly has the barbette and full canopy. It wasn't a comprehensive change. It was a few here, a few there. As far as historic proof goes, there are more photos of Ta-152s lined up together than there are of the Me410s without tailguns.
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Nice pics krusty.
Doesn't feel right to see them without the guns tho, kinda grown attached to them. :-)
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This is very similar to those bananas who dump all their Bf 110 rear gunner ammo thinking "it will turn better". :rofl
True story bro :D
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I have flown the mossie only a few times...crazy guns.....flying brick......never flown the 410....
but I disagree with everyone saying that the 410 has no chance against the mossie.....
everyone should know it is the pilot that is who you are fighting..... get a noob in a mossie and a vet in a 410 the mossie dies
:neener:
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I have flown the mossie only a few times...crazy guns.....flying brick......never flown the 410....
but I disagree with everyone saying that the 410 has no chance against the mossie.....
everyone should know it is the pilot that is who you are fighting..... get a noob in a mossie and a vet in a 410 the mossie dies
:neener:
A 2 day old newb, maybe. A 3 month old newb... my money is on the newb. ;) The 410 is truly a pig at anything but level flight and an extended WEP climb.
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A 2 day old newb, maybe. A 3 month old newb... my money is on the newb. ;) The 410 is truly a pig at anything but level flight and an extended WEP climb.
is it that bad :headscratch:
:rofl
one of these days I may take it up offline just to see....no interest what so ever to fly it.
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is it that bad :headscratch:
Yes. Imagine a P-51D, which I am guessing you have flown, up against a Brewster, but this Brewster is 25mph faster than the P-51D and climbs much better as well. The P-51D is pretty much screwed, no? That is the Mossie vs the Me410. If you think the Mossie is a flying brick, you'll be horrified by the Me410.
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Yes. Imagine a P-51D, which I am guessing you have flown, up against a Brewster, but this Brewster is 25mph faster than the P-51D and climbs much better as well. The P-51D is pretty much screwed, no? That is the Mossie vs the Me410. If you think the Mossie is a flying brick, you'll be horrified by the Me410.
:rofl
oh man that dont sound good
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:rofl
oh man that dont sound good
Ink, if I faced myself in a Mossie against a 410 the 410 would last about 1 turn maybe 1 and a half turns..... :D
:salute
PS: thats if I could hit the 410 with my guns......
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Mossie = Porn.
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+100
I would pay an extra $5 a month for a 410 and 110 option without tail guns. :pray
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After witnessing some bombers bailing on the way to the target, before even being seen; twice today. I want to retract this wish.
Obviously with the time needed to invest in a bomber run, its hard enough for bombers to accomplish missions let alone reach their target for non b-29 players...
I think a 410 with the bk5 and a few tons less might be too much for the current culture to handle.
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puh-leeze...
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I fly both the 410 and the mossie and found the best way to fly them is to HO, that being said the 410 wins hands down (most will hate me, but if you are dumb enough to HO a 410 than you deserve it.....)
But If you have to manuver thats when things get a little tricky.....and I think if the 410 has a altitude advantage than he has a good chance at winning.....
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I have flown the mossie only a few times...crazy guns.....flying brick......never flown the 410....
but I disagree with everyone saying that the 410 has no chance against the mossie.....
everyone should know it is the pilot that is who you are fighting..... get a noob in a mossie and a vet in a 410 the mossie dies
As someone who regularly flies the Mossie as a fighter, I can tell you that it out turns most of the late war single engine fighters, if it still has its WEP. I am talking about speeds of ~200 mph or less. If there is anything in the handling that bothers me it is the roll rate, but even that is not worse than quite a few fighters.
The pilot statement is trivial. The plane may give an advantage, but if the pilot skill is different enough, it can easily compensate for the plane. The mossie is clearly the better fighter of the two, but not to an absolute.
After witnessing some bombers bailing on the way to the target, before even being seen; twice today. I want to retract this wish.
...<snip>...
I think a 410 with the bk5 and a few tons less might be too much for the current culture to handle.
:D
I fly both the 410 and the mossie and found the best way to fly them is to HO, that being said the 410 wins hands down (most will hate me, but if you are dumb enough to HO a 410 than you deserve it.....)
We need a "facepalm" emotion.
I'll use this one instead:
(http://www.reallifephilippines.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Implied-Facepalm.jpg)