Me-410 option without tailgun assembly

[morfiend]

 Anyone thinking the 410 stands a chance against a mossie has got to be kidding.

   The Mossie turns much better and can deploy flaps at a higher speed not to mention it's about 25 mph faster on the deck.

  I have spent some time flying both planes and there's no way the 410 can gain an advantage. It simply doesnt have the rate or radious of turn.



  YMMV.


   

[SmokinLoon]

Anyone thinking the 410 stands a chance against a mossie has got to be kidding.

   The Mossie turns much better and can deploy flaps at a higher speed not to mention it's about 25 mph faster on the deck.

  I have spent some time flying both planes and there's no way the 410 can gain an advantage. It simply doesnt have the rate or radious of turn.



  YMMV.


   

Not to mention acceleration, roll rate, climb, or extreme boost from WEP.  There is nothing the Me410 can do that the Mossi can't do better, save for carrying 2/500kg SAP bombs and hit bombers from 2k out. 

[bozon]

K/D in the MA are usually skewed due to the different way in which the planes are used. Example: The 410 seem to be used much more than the mossie in air to ground and especially against GVs. If that assumption is corrent, then it likely means that the common Moss on 410 engagement is a Mossie attacking a base and finds a 410 that is defending its base, strafing GVs. This starts the fight in a very difficult position for the 410.

Now back to the single-seat 410. Does anyone have a photo of this? I mean, did they just kick out the gunner, ripped his seat out and dismantled the gun system, or did they also change the canopy and cockpit area? I mean, if the only thing that was achieved by that was reducing weight, then max speed will be little affected. However, if removing the turrets and changing the canopy/fuselage reduced drag, then this can have some impact on max speed. From the test De-Havilland did on the mossie prototype, a mossie gun turret would have cost about 15 mph. Reduced weight is still important and potentially we are talking about quite a lot of weight.

[Delirium]

Delirium its not a placebo, it really makes a difference in at very low speeds (and pilot dependent). Thats like saying torque is a placebo.

I've posted this before, I'll do it again.

1. Throttling down one engine to compensate for a missing wing, you can fly straight and level with this.

2. Great hammerheads, you can really squeeze every last bit of energy out of the plane and can reverse very quickly.

3. Immersion (AKAK quote).

4. Spin recovery.

5. Making great donuts on the runway.

6. Ability to roll the aircraft more quickly at the cost of energy.

7. Out of plane, last ditch efforts (cut one engine and roll it hard).

That said, I can guarantee that differential throttle controls get more Aces High pilots killed than any other control apparatus. Most of the time the offenders overcompensate or attempt to use it in a situation that requires E retention.

If you don't believe me, come into the TA and I'd be willing to show you why its use is widely over-rated.

[morfiend]

K/D in the MA are usually skewed due to the different way in which the planes are used. Example: The 410 seem to be used much more than the mossie in air to ground and especially against GVs. If that assumption is corrent, then it likely means that the common Moss on 410 engagement is a Mossie attacking a base and finds a 410 that is defending its base, strafing GVs. This starts the fight in a very difficult position for the 410.

Now back to the single-seat 410. Does anyone have a photo of this? I mean, did they just kick out the gunner, ripped his seat out and dismantled the gun system, or did they also change the canopy and cockpit area? I mean, if the only thing that was achieved by that was reducing weight, then max speed will be little affected. However, if removing the turrets and changing the canopy/fuselage reduced drag, then this can have some impact on max speed. From the test De-Havilland did on the mossie prototype, a mossie gun turret would have cost about 15 mph. Reduced weight is still important and potentially we are talking about quite a lot of weight.

  Moot had all that imformation in another thread complete with pix but when I searched it I found most the pix of the singlee seaters are gone. IIRC the 30 odd airframes were built to be single seaters and all the extra rear stuff was eliminated,supposedly it meant a 4000 pound weight reduction but I doubt it was that much.

  They even had a "special" canope that was different from the usual 410. I'm not sure if any were fielded with the GM1 kits and they were reported to only have a 20KM speed advantage over the twinseater.


   

[Krusty]

It wasn't just a new canopy. The rear fuselage fairing was extended forward. The entire aft seat was no longer there. See my previous post in this thread briefly outlining the changes and why it would need to be a different hangar entry.

[Krusty]

Probably the most famous example of the no-tailgun conversion, "Yellow 7," has a few photos floating around. Here are a couple:





You'll note that even though Yellow 7 has had the conversion, the next plane in the squadron behind it in the lineup has NOT had it. It clearly has the barbette and full canopy. It wasn't a comprehensive change. It was a few here, a few there. As far as historic proof goes, there are more photos of Ta-152s lined up together than there are of the Me410s without tailguns.

[Torquila]

Nice pics krusty.

Doesn't feel right to see them without the guns tho, kinda grown attached to them. :-)

[LCADolby]

This is very similar to those bananas who dump all their Bf 110 rear gunner ammo thinking "it will turn better".   

True story bro 

[ink]

I have flown the mossie only a few times...crazy guns.....flying brick......never flown the 410....

but I disagree with everyone saying that the 410 has no chance against the mossie.....

everyone should know it is the pilot that is who you are fighting..... get a noob in a mossie and a vet in a 410 the mossie dies


 

[SmokinLoon]

I have flown the mossie only a few times...crazy guns.....flying brick......never flown the 410....

but I disagree with everyone saying that the 410 has no chance against the mossie.....

everyone should know it is the pilot that is who you are fighting..... get a noob in a mossie and a vet in a 410 the mossie dies


 

A 2 day old newb, maybe.  A 3 month old newb... my money is on the newb.     The 410 is truly a pig at anything but level flight and an extended WEP climb.

[ink]

A 2 day old newb, maybe.  A 3 month old newb... my money is on the newb.     The 410 is truly a pig at anything but level flight and an extended WEP climb.

is it that bad

 

one of these days I may take it up offline just to see....no interest what so ever to fly it.

[Karnak]

is it that bad

Yes.  Imagine a P-51D, which I am guessing you have flown, up against a Brewster, but this Brewster is 25mph faster than the P-51D and climbs much better as well.  The P-51D is pretty much screwed, no?  That is the Mossie vs the Me410.  If you think the Mossie is a flying brick, you'll be horrified by the Me410.

[ink]

Yes.  Imagine a P-51D, which I am guessing you have flown, up against a Brewster, but this Brewster is 25mph faster than the P-51D and climbs much better as well.  The P-51D is pretty much screwed, no?  That is the Mossie vs the Me410.  If you think the Mossie is a flying brick, you'll be horrified by the Me410.

 

oh man that dont sound good

[morfiend]

oh man that dont sound good

  Ink, if I faced myself in a Mossie against a 410 the 410 would last about 1 turn maybe 1 and a half turns.....



    

 PS: thats if I could hit the 410 with my guns......