Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Gixer on March 10, 2013, 05:58:16 PM
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Yeah I know been talked to death before, but...
Is this really even close to how a Spit16 would of actually felt in flight or be able to fly? To me it seems like a fly by wire F16 the way it can be thrown about the sky, not too far from the old Falcon 4.0 model in feel except you are doing 280mph instead of 600mph. And against it in a high eny ride it never ceases to amaze me, most aircraft after merge you expect to be somewhere near point B but the Spit16 is often already well past any expected point B and possibly even in position for a shot.
Actually flying it, 1v1 against anything other than perk rides feels like cheating. I actually prefer it over the Temp. To me it feels not that far from being a 2 cannon temp but with better E retention and maneuverability at certain speeds.
Anyway, just my mumblings after a few hours trying it out and vs ever present horde that fly em on a regular basis. I believe it's not what you fly but how you fly it, but you could fly it drunk left handed and still hold one hell of an advantage over most other rides.
<S>...-Gixer
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What numbers does it miss?
Roll rate? That seems to match the NACA chart for a clipped Spitfire. There are better rolling fighters in the game, though not many I'll grant you.
Speeds? It matches the speed charts for a Merlin 66 powered Spitfire LF.Mk IX on 100 octane fuel. There are many faster fighters. I've never been run down suspiciously by a Spitfire Mk XVI.
Acceleration? Matches the climb rate of the Spitfire LF.Mk IX, and that is a proxy for acceleration. Despite claims of it doing a hard 180 degree turn and then accelerating and catching another fighter that has over 400mph on the clock no film of such has ever been produced. There are a couple better climbing fighters in the game, but given that is one of the Spitfire's fortes it isn't surprising that a 1944 version will climb exceptionally well.
Turn rate or radius? Again, nothing out of line. There are much better turning aircraft in the game, including several other Spitfires.
What makes it unbelievable to you?
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Oops
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The Spit 16 in Aces High requires a computer to fly like it does. :aok
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Uh, because even Churchil admitted after the war that "germany will be painted as the badguys"...
And as much as he, and stalin, were begging USA to help help, after the war the lies about "didn't need USA"
The spit16 'recorded attributes' are part of the lies!
Especially Eric Brown <--- very nationalistic patriotic, and controversy says he LIES!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Brown_(pilot)
Even USA engineers said he was full of it when he was talking about the P-47 etc.
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Sorry Barbi, but the NACA roll rate the Spitfire Mk XVI uses in AH are American tests. I know you hate the Brits and everything about them, but suck it up cupcake.
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The Spit16 is THEE crutch plane of AH. There is nothing it cant do and do very well, save for maybe a 500 TAS dive.
My issue with the 16 is the lack of perk cost. For everything it does better and only the 1 thing it does worse than the Spit 14, I'm still perplexed that it doesn't have a small perk cost (2-4?)
People will mention that "there are planes that are faster, roll better, turn better, climb better, etc", but the thing most forget about that even though the P51 is faster all the 16 has to do is match speeds with the P51 (say 300 TAS) in any maneuver and it is over for the P51. All the Spit 16 has to do vs a Hurricane or zeke is not get in to a tight 130 TAS turn, and if it does simply be climbing and it will leave the others behind. Or, if and when they catch up in that tight turn all the 16 has to do is roll °180 and out roll, accelerate, and climb away. Easy peasy. If the 16 gets in to a scissors vs its only equal in the roll (the Fw190), it has the luxury of being more forgiving, better handling at slower speeds, turning, acceleration, etc, so it can rely on far more things than just the roll rate. Point being is that if and when the Spit 16 goes up against a plane that can do something "better" than it, it is hardly worth mentioning because it is not eclipsed by much and all of the other superb attributes make up for any deficiency or "disadvantage" it may have vs a particular plane. It truly is the best dog fighter in AH.
Oh, and the 16's ability to carry 1000 lbs of ord (1186 lbs dmg) is often over looked. It was after all meant to be used as a ground attack plane. Instead, AH has it as its best fighter. :)
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SmokinLoon, I think that comes down to usage. When the P-51D sees twice the usage of the Spitfire Mk XVI and carries a better K/D ratio with it, it would be hard to justify perking the Spitfire Mk XVI. The fact that the Spitfire Mk XIV is perked isn't a good reference because as Lusche has shown repeatedly, it is by far the worst perk plane and the only perk plane that is always beaten in K/D by some non-perked planes.
Oh, and the 16's ability to carry 1000 lbs of ord (1186 lbs dmg) is often over looked. It was after all meant to be used as a ground attack plane. Instead, AH has it as its best fighter. :)
You have that backwards. It was meant to be an interceptor that ended up being pressed into service as an attack plane. Nothing significant was changed that would impede its use as an interceptor.
For all the years of complaints about it nobody has every showed how it is modeled incorrectly. All that is ever thrown at it are vague insinuations about being overmodeled.
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For all the years of complaints about it nobody has every showed how it is modeled incorrectly. All that is ever thrown at it are vague insinuations about being overmodeled.
It was a fantastic plane, as was the Spitfire series as a whole. It had many strong attributes, chiefly being easy to fly and control. When you are defending your country with barely-trained pilots, that would be a most favorable attribute.
I think they are just jealous! :rofl
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Uh, because even Churchil admitted after the war that "germany will be painted as the badguys"...
And as much as he, and stalin, were begging USA to help help, after the war the lies about "didn't need USA"
The spit16 'recorded attributes' are part of the lies!
Especially Eric Brown <--- very nationalistic patriotic, and controversy says he LIES!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Brown_(pilot)
Even USA engineers said he was full of it when he was talking about the P-47 etc.
Errrm... what are you gibbering about? No one needs reminding of the myriad reasons Germany was "painted" as the bad guys, their actions pretty much assured they were considered just that. Of course you being a more skilled test pilot than Eric Brown with real world experience in Spits and 47's you should feel free to give your opinion
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190a-series can easy get rid of pesky spits16 by diving away, and do fancy stuff when the spit compress, Spit16 can NOT roll with 190-a series.
Spit16 is a good plane, though easy overshadowed by the LA-7, that has everything going for it, against faster planes.
Perking the 3-gun model of the LA-7 hopefully would make it a little bit more unusual. in Loose-Deuce we call them LA-infestivals, due to their multiplying rate closer to their own airfield.
The Spit16 is THEE crutch plane of AH. There is nothing it cant do and do very well, save for maybe a 500 TAS dive.
My issue with the 16 is the lack of perk cost. For everything it does better and only the 1 thing it does worse than the Spit 14, I'm still perplexed that it doesn't have a small perk cost (2-4?)
People will mention that "there are planes that are faster, roll better, turn better, climb better, etc", but the thing most forget about that even though the P51 is faster all the 16 has to do is match speeds with the P51 (say 300 TAS) in any maneuver and it is over for the P51. All the Spit 16 has to do vs a Hurricane or zeke is not get in to a tight 130 TAS turn, and if it does simply be climbing and it will leave the others behind. Or, if and when they catch up in that tight turn all the 16 has to do is roll °180 and out roll, accelerate, and climb away. Easy peasy. If the 16 gets in to a scissors vs its only equal in the roll (the Fw190), it has the luxury of being more forgiving, better handling at slower speeds, turning, acceleration, etc, so it can rely on far more things than just the roll rate. Point being is that if and when the Spit 16 goes up against a plane that can do something "better" than it, it is hardly worth mentioning because it is not eclipsed by much and all of the other superb attributes make up for any deficiency or "disadvantage" it may have vs a particular plane. It truly is the best dog fighter in AH.
Oh, and the 16's ability to carry 1000 lbs of ord (1186 lbs dmg) is often over looked. It was after all meant to be used as a ground attack plane. Instead, AH has it as its best fighter. :)
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Meh...Spitfires were legendary for the very attributes that make them the plane they are in game. I don't see a need to perk them. They still surprise me now and then but they were truly great dog fighters and likely the best of the war. The only fighter that really makes me scratch my head anymore is the Brew.
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I've been noticing that some very good pilots will purposely fly one of the "uber planes" in aces high fully outside of the conditions that contribute to it's uberness..........probably for the challenge.
I've been seeing ta152s dicing at low altitudes and am finding yaks and and spit 16 at super high altitudes.
Those guys have my respect.
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I've been noticing that some very good pilots will purposely fly one of the "uber planes" in aces high fully outside of the conditions that contribute to it's uberness..........probably for the challenge.
I've been seeing ta152s dicing at low altitudes and am finding yaks and and spit 16 at super high altitudes.
Those guys have my respect.
I sometimes fly Typhoons and Hurri's at extremely high alt, mostly from being AFK.
Then I dive the wings off them :(
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If they keep a few new players from getting frustrated due to the games learning curve, their benefits outweigh the drawbacks or their ability to pull moves that a real pilot would/could never pull off.
Concerning the Brew, I'm no aircraft expert but when I came back to the game a few months ago it took a while to realize that the Brew on my tail wasn't a 2nd one I didn't see. It was the same one that did a flat 180 turn behind me but I wrote off because I'm cruising along straight at a good speed and there's no way he could complete that turn, that tight, and be shooting at me.
No idea if their ability to swap ends with minimal E bleed is accurate, but it certainly is a surprise for a lot of folks use to flying against the rest of the plane set. Once known its just something you plan accordingly for.
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Uh, because even Churchil admitted after the war that "germany will be painted as the badguys"...
And as much as he, and stalin, were begging USA to help help, after the war the lies about "didn't need USA"
The spit16 'recorded attributes' are part of the lies!
Especially Eric Brown <--- very nationalistic patriotic, and controversy says he LIES!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Brown_(pilot)
Even USA engineers said he was full of it when he was talking about the P-47 etc.
All British people are liars. I'm lying right now actually.
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Concerning the Brew, I'm no aircraft expert but when I came back to the game a few months ago it took a while to realize that the Brew on my tail wasn't a 2nd one I didn't see. It was the same one that did a flat 180 turn behind me but I wrote off because I'm cruising along straight at a good speed and there's no way he could complete that turn, that tight, and be shooting at me.
Film please. I have seen this claim repeatedly, but my tests say it isn't possible. Nobody has been able to produce a film yet.
I sometimes fly Typhoons and Hurri's at extremely high alt, mostly from being AFK.
Then I dive the wings off them :(
Wings are for sissies.
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Meh...Spitfires were legendary for the very attributes that make them the plane they are in game. I don't see a need to perk them. They still surprise me now and then but they were truly great dog fighters and likely the best of the war. The only fighter that really makes me scratch my head anymore is the Brew.
Agreed on both points.
- oldman
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Meh...Spitfires were legendary for the very attributes that make them the plane they are in game. I don't see a need to perk them. They still surprise me now and then but they were truly great dog fighters and likely the best of the war.
I agree with this as well.
Besides, why bother perking the Spit16? At least they will fight, unlike the P51s and 190s. I'd rather fight a Spit16 any day of the week over a P51 for that reason. I hate watching P51s circle around you, waiting for you to engage another aircraft so they can come in when you're distracted. It is a complete waste of my online game time.
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Oops
can't control that 'post' button finger pressing can you!
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I'm still perplexed that it doesn't have a small perk cost (2-4?)
It would not bother me if it got a token perk as mentioned here. +1
EDIT: AH could even add this for the next update...still would not bother me.
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IMO the Spit 16 needs no perk cost.
I have never had a problem shooting one down.
I like to see an NME in a spit 16 in the MA, means it "may" actually be a fight.....for a few turns anyway. :bolt:
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IMO the Spit 16 needs no perk cost.
I have never had a problem shooting one down.
I like to see an NME in a spit 16 in the MA, means it "may" actually be a fight.....for a few turns anyway. :bolt:
16 in the right hands is the one of toughest fights there is, people go 262rage I go 16rage....I remember jumping 6 51's and a spit16 all but 2 died and the last 2 only lived cuz I ran out of ammo....
all the best gang kills I have are in the 16, great plane that flies how they say it did.
you are right though most that fly it are quite easy to kill :t
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It would not bother me if it got a token perk as mentioned here. +1
EDIT: AH could even add this for the next update...still would not bother me.
Completely absurd. Perk a fighter that actually fights while letting the vastly more used "pork and run" P-51D continue uncontrolled.
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16 in the right hands is the one of toughest fights there is, people go 262rage I go 16rage....I remember jumping 6 51's and a spit16 all but 2 died and the last 2 only lived cuz I ran out of ammo....
all the best gang kills I have are in the 16, great plane that flies how they say it did.
you are right though most that fly it are quite easy to kill :t
Ehhh..I go N1K2rage. Same result....more style :cheers:
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Ehhh..I go N1K2rage. Same result....more style :cheers:
n1k :headscratch:
really....a 16 will destroy a N1K .....I flew the N1K for awhile but just not enough umph I don't HO generally so the cannons were ehh ,thats why I went to Hurri, but then transited to Ki. :rock
the styling of the 16 is top notch :neener:
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When I need to blow off steam I turn to the A6M3, Ki-84 or Spitfire Mk VIII. I am guessing the Ki-43-II may well be added to the list.
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When I need to blow off steam I turn to the A6M3, Ki-84 or Spitfire Mk VIII. I am guessing the Ki-43-II may well be added to the list.
I cant wait to try it :aok
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The Spit16 is THEE crutch plane of AH. There is nothing it cant do and do very well, save for maybe a 500 TAS dive.
Actually it can do that too. 480 is the upper "safe" limit but 500's not out of the question as long as you're steady on the stick and careful on the pull-out.
Spit16 is a good plane, though easy overshadowed by the LA-7, that has everything going for it, against faster planes.
Umm... no. LA's (either model) are no match for a Spit XVI unless the 7's going to run away.
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who here thinks 109G-14 is also a decent match against the XVI?
my input: 109 flaps do wonders while XVI will have to make do with airbrakes :lol
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who here thinks 109G-14 is also a decent match against the XVI?
my input: 109 flaps do wonders while XVI will have to make do with airbrakes :lol
emmmmm....no
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emmmmm....no
this
in fact I think we had a fight once, ink, with you in a G-14 with some alt, and me in my dweeb16...that i actually won...which would never normally happen
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this
in fact I think we had a fight once, ink, with you in a G-14 with some alt, and me in my dweeb16...that i actually won...which would never normally happen
dont remember that one, I very rarely fly the G14.....absolutely hate the canopy bars on the 109's......but I dont doubt you, the 16 is probably the best non perked fighter, I know the 8 may be better but I like the 16 more, just seems so much more responsive.
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From a pure ability standpoint, it should be perked. From a helping new guys not feel like a baby seal standpoint, it should be left unperked. I'm convinced this is why it's not perked. I mean lets face it, we all like to wax poetic about how hard this game can be to learn, especially if you have no historical knowledge of the planes or sim experience. Perking the 16 would probably see less new people stick around long enough to perhaps become a long term customer.
That's what I tell myself anyway.. :lol
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Seeing so many of them in the MA...I agree with a small perk. It's so superior to most of the planes it faces, that a few points cost isn't unreasonable. If the XIV and CHog are perked, so should the -16 (and the LA7 ;) )
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Seeing so many of them in the MA...I agree with a small perk.
So the P-51D should get a massive perk then?
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I find all planes in AH to be "fly by wire". Half the stuff you could do would probably make your head explode in RL.
Don't look at AH as a flight sim, look at it as an action game with planes. DCS series are what I would call a flight sim.
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Half the stuff you could do would probably make your head explode in RL.
:headscratch:
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:headscratch:
Take a K4, Spit16, P38, Ki84, (and a bunch more) straight up vertical and yank the stick every which way possible. In the game, you're still flying. I somehow doubt any pilot in real lifecan take sudden G differences that ranges up to 6 in a few seconds multiple times in rapid succession.
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I find all planes in AH to be "fly by wire". Half the stuff you could do would probably make your head explode in RL.
I don't know about exploding heads, that usually involves a woman... but in regards to your comment, there would be a dickpit full of vomit.
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I don't know about exploding heads, that usually involves a woman... but in regards to your comment, there would be a dickpit full of vomit.
:lol Yup. I was just exaggerating in my post but still, the general idea is still there. No way anyone can control RL planes the same way we can in AH. And I don't mind it one bit. Just an observation, not a critique.
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:lol Yup. I was just exaggerating in my post but still, the general idea is still there. No way anyone can control RL planes the same way we can in AH. And I don't mind it one bit. Just an observation, not a critique.
not true, by any means...... :aok
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No way anyone can control RL planes the same way we can in AH.
It's the other way around. We have a lower G limit in AH and no feel for how we're flying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNtjOb9DTYs
Film doesn't prove my point since we can't compare the model but the girl is having fun.
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Is there any record at all that WWII pilots did the same crazy maneuvers that we do? I see plenty of videos with modern aerobatic planes, but I haven't seen or read anyone doing it with an actual WWII plane.
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Is there any record at all that WWII pilots did the same crazy maneuvers that we do?
Of course not. There's no chance a 20 year old kid would do anything he wasn't supposed to do just because he's out flying with his buddy in 2000 HP airplanes without supervision, but if he did, he'd certainly document it and report it so we'd all know about it. :D
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Test pilots? :angel:
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Is there any record at all that WWII pilots did the same crazy maneuvers that we do? I see plenty of videos with modern aerobatic planes, but I haven't seen or read anyone doing it with an actual WWII plane.
just because it wasn't often done does not mean it couldn't be done.....big difference..... :aok
those guys were fighting for their life...we on the other hand have no such worries.
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just because it wasn't often done does not mean it couldn't be done.....big difference..... :aok
those guys were fighting for their life...we on the other hand have no such worries.
Seems like the risk of death would result in more crazy-arse maneuvering to shake the guy off your 6, not less.
And as to the origional topic, it seems to me, admittely based on limited experience flying them but a fair bit fighting them, that the primary 'issue', if one could call it that, is relatively light control surfaces at relatively high speed.
By this I mean that even at the same speeds, a spitfire will have lighter controls than, say, a 109, or a C.205. Its entirely possible that this is just perception, as I have never done a direct comparison with a spitfire. I don't even know exactly how they determine the level, or even if they just let the physics model determine it based off of surface area, deflection of the control surface, air density, and speed.
Just my $0.02.
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Seems like the risk of death would result in more crazy-arse maneuvering to shake the guy off your 6, not less.
ahh....if someone got on your 6....you were already dead. :aok
(for the most part;-)
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just because it wasn't often done does not mean it couldn't be done.....big difference..... :aok
those guys were fighting for their life...we on the other hand have no such worries.
So during the whole time the plane was in development, not a single test pilot decided to push the plane to its limits?
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So during the whole time the plane was in development, not a single test pilot decided to push the plane to its limits?
Of course they did, and sometimes they died doing it.
How many times have each of us pancaked or augered a plane in AH? That is the last time you try anything in real life as you're bits scattered on the ground.
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That is the last time you try anything in real life as you're bits scattered on the ground.
Quite a lot actually, Track Racing I have corner nick named after me. :D
<S>...-Gixer
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So during the whole time the plane was in development, not a single test pilot decided to push the plane to its limits?
obviously I was referring to combat sorties :rolleyes:
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I agree with Delirium, 16s are cannon fodder 99 percent if the time. More annoying are 51s and Lalas that circle the fight and show up as soon as I'm on someone. Hotard?
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I agree with Delirium,
Careful, agreeing with me will destroy any reputation you have. :devil
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It's the other way around. We have a lower G limit in AH and no feel for how we're flying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNtjOb9DTYs
Film doesn't prove my point since we can't compare the model but the girl is having fun.
this one might put to rest "no person could handle the G's like that"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtpUhKSFcnc
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this one might put to rest "no person could handle the G's like that"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtpUhKSFcnc
Only watched 2 mins of that, torturous, its seems impossible he could retain control, let alone fly a routine.
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this one might put to rest "no person could handle the G's like that"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtpUhKSFcnc
That certainly exceeds any stick stirring we see in AH although he did say the 7G manouver hurt.
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who here thinks 109G-14 is also a decent match against the XVI?
my input: 109 flaps do wonders while XVI will have to make do with airbrakes :lol
emmmmm....no
this
in fact I think we had a fight once, ink, with you in a G-14 with some alt, and me in my dweeb16...that i actually won...which would never normally happen
I don't recall the exact time and day I played but I got down lo & slo with a XVI while flying a G14. Forced it in left biased turnfight... dumped some flaps... careful throttle mgmt... and killed it.
Before I get down low, slow & dirty (in DA) I set my trims for 350 IAS, then turn off autotrim and put ailerons in neutral.
109 G14 feels like the earlier G's (to me, in a good way) but with higher boost and monster torque... so no boost when locked in stall fights (at least in my experience in DA).
I dunno about you guys but I feel more confident turning with XVI and kill it... in any F4U variant,109 variant (except K4), and ki-84.
But the VIII that's low on fuel in the wings is more troublesome than XVI.
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would you guys think the n1K is a good spit killer?
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I don't recall the exact time and day I played but I got down lo & slo with a XVI while flying a G14. Forced it in left biased turnfight... dumped some flaps... careful throttle mgmt... and killed it.
Before I get down low, slow & dirty (in DA) I set my trims for 350 IAS, then turn off autotrim and put ailerons in neutral.
109 G14 feels like the earlier G's (to me, in a good way) but with higher boost and monster torque... so no boost when locked in stall fights (at least in my experience in DA).
I dunno about you guys but I feel more confident turning with XVI and kill it... in any F4U variant,109 variant (except K4), and ki-84.
But the VIII that's low on fuel in the wings is more troublesome than XVI.
one fight means nothing, honestly, that guy obviously had no clue how to use the 16 :neener:, pilots skill is the deciding factor on the outcome of a fight, the closer the pilot skill, the more important the plane becomes.
trimming does not amount to much when it comes right down to it, its not like the stall converter, IE 2 guys fighting the one who has combat trim on and never touches his trim will be at a disadvantage.
the 8 is a monster with full fuel :D
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Careful, agreeing with me will destroy any reputation you have. :devil
Honestly I have gone to some pretty low depths. It would be hard to destroy any of my rep.
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Careful, agreeing with me will destroy any reputation you have. :devil
It's pretty tough to destroy any further the reputation of a guy who flew around with the handle Gonorrhea for a year.
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Damn. I forgot about that one. I've had so many aliases trying to.avoid the law.
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The Spit16 is THEE crutch plane of AH. There is nothing it cant do and do very well, save for maybe a 500 TAS dive.
My issue with the 16 is the lack of perk cost. For everything it does better and only the 1 thing it does worse than the Spit 14, I'm still perplexed that it doesn't have a small perk cost (2-4?)
People will mention that "there are planes that are faster, roll better, turn better, climb better, etc", but the thing most forget about that even though the P51 is faster all the 16 has to do is match speeds with the P51 (say 300 TAS) in any maneuver and it is over for the P51. All the Spit 16 has to do vs a Hurricane or zeke is not get in to a tight 130 TAS turn, and if it does simply be climbing and it will leave the others behind. Or, if and when they catch up in that tight turn all the 16 has to do is roll °180 and out roll, accelerate, and climb away. Easy peasy. If the 16 gets in to a scissors vs its only equal in the roll (the Fw190), it has the luxury of being more forgiving, better handling at slower speeds, turning, acceleration, etc, so it can rely on far more things than just the roll rate. Point being is that if and when the Spit 16 goes up against a plane that can do something "better" than it, it is hardly worth mentioning because it is not eclipsed by much and all of the other superb attributes make up for any deficiency or "disadvantage" it may have vs a particular plane. It truly is the best dog fighter in AH.
Oh, and the 16's ability to carry 1000 lbs of ord (1186 lbs dmg) is often over looked. It was after all meant to be used as a ground attack plane. Instead, AH has it as its best fighter. :)
I personally view spits as good at everything but not great at anything. I feel that most of the time whatever plane I'm in I have an advantage in at least one category which I can exploit.
I also very much dislike its low ammo load, poor range, and the very fragile wings.