Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Shifty on April 08, 2013, 06:57:00 PM
-
Your alt cap is 15k.
Thank you.
-
after drop/rearm?
good question huh?
:)
-
after drop/rearm?
good question huh?
:)
Yes it is. :)
After you make your Jabo attack you're free to fly up to the down draft if you wish.
Once you rearm you're a Jabo again.
-
Yes it is. :)
After you make your Jabo attack you're free to fly up to the down draft if you wish.
Once you rearm you're a Jabo again.
cc all. Perfect.
-
Yes it is. :)
After you make your Jabo attack you're free to fly up to the down draft if you wish.
Once you rearm you're a Jabo again.
I'm assuming this also applies if they need to drop ords to combat enemy fighters before the target area?
-
I'm assuming this also applies if they need to drop ords to combat enemy fighters before the target area?
Would you also assume that you're being attacked when you're really not? :D
-
I'm assuming this also applies if they need to drop ords to combat enemy fighters before the target area?
The rules of the setup state...
- 109Es and 110Cs must be used in Jabo role. They cannot be assigned as sweep or escort.
The 109E and 110C are there to represent the 109 LG units and 110 SKG units. They are not there to represent Jagdgeschwader units.
If for some reason you cannot blow past I-16s or Hurricanes to get to your target and need to defend yourself of course you are free to do so.
However this doesn't mean drop your ord and go air to air just because you spot enemy fighters.
The mission of the 109E and 110C is Jabo and in the spirit of the event they are expected to do their best to carry out their assigned attack. :aok
-
Defending ourselves is what I was referring to. But after that engagement we have free reign to use the full alt available, correct? Lets face it, a 109E is near useless in ground attack without that bomb.
-
You should have time to return, rearm and make another run as long as you're not dropping on close targets then escorting buffs.
-
You should have time to return, rearm and make another run as long as you're not dropping on close targets then escorting buffs.
Obviously.
-
But after that engagement we have free reign to use the full alt available, correct?
Yes, see my quote.
After you make your Jabo attack you're free to fly up to the down draft if you wish.
Once you rearm you're a Jabo again.
-
Excellent. Just wanted to be sure the issue was crystal clear.
-
Obviously.
And, obviously, anyone dedicated to the JABO assignment as mandated by the scenario design would probably be more concerned with quick turn-arounds and re-arms rather than grabbing for the ceiling (even if allowed). After all, I thought I heard someone infer that an Emil without ord is a pizz poor Jabo.
-
And, obviously, anyone dedicated to the JABO assignment as mandated by the scenario design would probably be more concerned with quick turn-arounds and re-arms rather than grabbing for the ceiling (even if allowed). After all, I thought I heard someone infer that an Emil without ord is a pizz poor Jabo.
Indeed, but I'm certainly not staying low and leaving myself open to being pounced by them pesky commies on my way back for a rearm.
-
Excellent. Just wanted to be sure the issue was crystal clear.
:aok
-
Indeed, but I'm certainly not staying low and leaving myself open to being pounced by them pesky commies on my way back for a rearm.
Are you trying to level bomb, as well? I'd wager that your Emil will be in less danger by RTBing at low level max speed than grabbing for alt to your re-arm pad. Unless, of course, your rearm pad is at a base that's 19k high. Besides, your enemy is in a defensive stance, not following you back to your base. Rationalizing the 'need' for Emils to hit the ceiling isn't a 'defense' argument. :D
-
Are you trying to level bomb, as well? I'd wager that your Emil will be in less danger by RTBing at low level max speed than grabbing for alt to your re-arm pad. Unless, of course, your rearm pad is at a base that's 19k high. Besides, your enemy is in a defensive stance, not following you back to your base. Rationalizing the 'need' for Emils to hit the ceiling isn't a 'defense' argument. :D
Ever consider that one might encounter some enemy on egress? I'd rather have alt and not need it vs. the alternative.
-
Ever consider that one might encounter some enemy on egress?
15k is your best alt for level speed in an Emil. It's also where your climb rate begins to peter off.
With the 20k ceiling, you don't have enough alt to outclimb a Mosca. The good news is that you can zoom back to alt fairly efficiently in your ride - but again - 15k is your sweet spot.
-
Wait.. 15 THOUSAND feet??!!?? :O
Hmm...
(http://www.airmageddon.com/ClaimJumpers/FSO_AltLimit.jpg)
-
NICE!!! my kind of flying!! get rid of the glaring red flag and camoflage is everything!!
-
Yes it is. :)
After you make your Jabo attack you're free to fly up to the down draft if you wish.
Once you rearm you're a Jabo again.
Where does it say that in the rules?
-
Where does it say that in the rules?
In this thread. Clarification was asked for. Clarification was given.
-
In this thread. Clarification was asked for. Clarification was given.
Thanks Shifty. :devil
-
I am sure the people that flew Frame 1 would have found that information helpful. Is there anyway you can insert that into the rules? Most of my squad and stand-in CO does not check the forums frequently. He will refer to the rules of the event for the rules of the event. Sounds ludacris, but that is what he will do. I cannot tell him because I am banned from the arena and I can not find him in MA because he is an FSO only guy like me. So, a simple request: Please insert this new rule/clarification into the writeup.
Thanks <S>
-
Thanks Shifty. :devil
Sure, ask him. :D
-
I am sure the people that flew Frame 1 would have found that information helpful. Is there anyway you can insert that into the rules? Most of my squad and stand-in CO does not check the forums frequently. He will refer to the rules of the event for the rules of the event. Sounds ludacris, but that is what he will do. I cannot tell him because I am banned from the arena and I can not find him in MA because he is an FSO only guy like me. So, a simple request: Please insert this new rule/clarification into the writeup.
Thanks <S>
What banned you from the arena, if one may ask? Oh, and how come you can't communicate with this one soul outside of this one arena? I know youse guys got a website forum. :D
-
:D
-
We do not have a website forum. We have an AH forum. He does not check it frequently and probably will not until the end of the month. I feel like I have said this already.
About the ban, be patient. You will know soon.
-
About the ban, be patient. You will know soon.
Well, I've seen over a decade and a half of bans happen to those who either learn from it or are inappropriately proud of it. I'm not looking to buy the book or watch the movie. Good luck. :)
-
Well, I've seen over a decade and a half of bans happen to those who either learn from it or are inappropriately proud of it. I'm not looking to buy the book or watch the movie. Good luck. :)
Ok, thanks for your input <S>
-
You're welcome. Though I suppose giving good advice to the 'enemy' is seldom appreciated by either them or my allies. :D
-
You're welcome. Though I suppose giving good advice to the 'enemy' is seldom appreciated by either them or my allies. :D
That is where you are wrong. I am honorable believe it or not and view aerial battles as a sport.
"We are sportsman, not butchers." - Manfred von Richthofen
-
If you were Honerable you wouldn't be banned.
-
If you were Honerable you wouldn't be banned.
If you could spell, people wouldn't think you're an idiot.
-
If you could spell, people wouldn't think you're an idiot.
Boom goes the dynamite! :rofl
-
http://youtu.be/N4vf8N6GpdM (http://youtu.be/N4vf8N6GpdM) :D
-
ahh I'm sorry I spelled it wrong but the statement stands :lol whats weird is it got past the ah spell checker;) lol
honorable, wow it was spelled right that time apparently and your still baned and humm I wonder why????????
I don't think Ive ever seen anyone baned from the game, ever unless they were manipulating the game.
-
Sorry Surf, wrong guess. Would you like to go for Double Jeopardy, where the scores can really change?
-
ahh I'm sorry I spelled it wrong but the statement stands :lol whats weird is it got past the ah spell checker;) lol
honorable, wow it was spelled right that time apparently and your still baned and humm I wonder why????????
I don't think Ive ever seen anyone baned from the game, ever unless they were manipulating the game.
banned*
you're*
-
Check the website. The jabo alt cap is listed under special rules.
-
Sorry Surf, wrong guess. Would you like to go for Double Jeopardy, where the scores can really change?
Can I have my foot in my mouth for $1000, Alex?
-
Check the website. The jabo alt cap is listed under special rules.
I am guessing you didnt read the whole thread. We know the Jabo alt cap is 15K. But apparently they become fighters when their ordnance is dropped. That sir, is not in the rules. However, we appreciate your input.
I have said this before in this thread but I must say it again. Emils and 110C's are labelled "Jabo". Jabo alt cap is 15K. Fighter alt cap is 20k. No where in the rules does it say that Jabos become fighters after they drop their ords. Although it could be understood as common knowledge, it is best not to assume things with CM's and rules. It is better to get clarity and assume the ridiculous before assuming the obvious. I have learned this the hard way and this is why I question the rules so much. I am looking for clarity, not a fight. People misunderstand me, and that is understandable.
Again I ask, will someone please add this new clarification into the rules please. Not everyone checks this thing. Most people will check the rules. If it is not there, then it remains unclear. I suppose a global announcement during the frame will work as well. Either way, something besides this thread is needed. I know that is a lot of work on you CM's and I apologize for it. I also thank you for clarifying and getting the word out elsewhere.
-
I am guessing you didnt read the whole thread. We know the Jabo alt cap is 15K. But apparently they become fighters when their ordnance is dropped. That sir, is not in the rules. However, we appreciate your input.
I have said this before in this thread but I must say it again. Emils and 110C's are labelled "Jabo". Jabo alt cap is 15K. Fighter alt cap is 20k. No where in the rules does it say that Jabos become fighters after they drop their ords. Although it could be understood as common knowledge, it is best not to assume things with CM's and rules. It is better to get clarity and assume the ridiculous before assuming the obvious. I have learned this the hard way and this is why I question the rules so much. I am looking for clarity, not a fight. People misunderstand me, and that is understandable.
Again I ask, will someone please add this new clarification into the rules please. Not everyone checks this thing. Most people will check the rules. If it is not there, then it remains unclear. I suppose a global announcement during the frame will work as well. Either way, something besides this thread is needed. I know that is a lot of work on you CM's and I apologize for it. I also thank you for clarifying and getting the word out elsewhere.
"- 109Es and 110Cs must be used in Jabo role. They cannot be assigned as sweep or escort."
That is the first special rule listed, isn't it? You're right, nowhere in the special rules does it say 'Once they drop their ord they can now conduct fighter sweeps and bomber escort duties.' Is that what you want added? You want a loophole made official?
Shifty said Emils and 110s can grab for the sky between dropping and rearming. He seems to infer that rearming is somewhat expected. Yes, why don't we expand the rules.
Are they expected to rearm in this scenario or are the Emils and 110s expected to finish their Jabo runs as quickly as possible to change their roles to fighters, Shifty? :D
(Sometimes rule lawyering is just plain transparent) ;)
-
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/rules_zps67268f26.png)
If I refuel and rearm before I tower out do I get two bonuses? The rules don't say otherwise. :D
-
It is a simple request.
After being debriefed by my stand-in CO last week, he had mentioned that. He kept his Emils below 15K for the whole frame. By my interpretation of the rules, he did right. But now, things have changed and apparently he could have went to 20K. It is a simple request and I am not sure why I am getting so much grief from this. Oh wait, I am perdweeb. Forgot for a second.
I see no need for sarcasm Arlo. I dont even know who you are or why you are all over me all of a sudden. What I do know is that I have a simple request and really see no reason why it not be granted.
As to the refuel and rearm thing, there is a semantic flaw in that rule. What he means is that you may refuel and rearm at any base. Landing bonuses are also available at any base. It is worded poorly. Read it like this: "You may rearm at any friendly field. You may also land at any friendly field and receive the 5 pt landing bonus."
However, I acknowledge your recognition of the semantic flaw and understand the point you have attempted to make. That is exactly my point with the alt cap rulings.
-
"- 109Es and 110Cs must be used in Jabo role. They cannot be assigned as sweep or escort." :D
Self-persecute much, Perdue?
-
"- 109Es and 110Cs must be used in Jabo role. They cannot be assigned as sweep or escort." :D
Self-persecute much, Perdue?
I do not think that is the argument here. It is whether or not it is clearly stated that the jabo planes must resume their role after re-arm, which is not part of the rules from what I have read.
If the planes are assigned as jabos, and end up having to dogfight, they are still abiding by the rules.
-
If the planes are assigned as jabos, and end up having to dogfight, they are still abiding by the rules.
Having to dogfight and looking for a dogfight are two different bananas.
'Hey! Can we grab to 20k after dropping our bomb?!'
Sure ... but why? You're headed for the egg distribution facility for another, aren't you? You're obviously not switching to fighter sweep or escort roles. By the time you're at 20k you're likely out of the fight and in a sector that is free of bogies. Your base isn't that high.
Nobody's trying to create an environment where the Emils and 110s can't defend themselves. That's not even a remotely good argument regarding the Jabos wanting to grab to 19,999 feet 5 seconds after drop.
This comes off more like 'how do we use our Emils and 110s in the fighter role in spite of what the rules say' loophole fishing.
Honestly, I have film of Emils (below 15k, granted) not interested in rearming, whatsoever. They were clear of any enemy fighters engaging. They were cruising around looking for engagements. I'd call that a 15k and under fighter sweep. And .... frankly .... I didn't care until KNs took to 'clarifying' the rules in this thread. Funny how the rearm/tower out bonuses are 'obvious' in spite of the wording but Jabos being given the green light to hit the ceiling after a drop is now very important and must be highly detailed in the rules ...... for some reason.
Hell, Shifty, just give them the green light to make Jabo their secondary assignment and sweep their primary once they drop. I really don't see the threat. :D
-
Well, personally, if I was going to be a bomber all frame, I'd rather fly a bomber. There are 5 planes in this setup and 4 of them are tasked as bombers. It does not seem right to me, but then again it is not my setup. I am just pointing it out. I wouldn't mind one bit flying a couple bombs to a target, but not the entire frame. That is what Ju88s and Ju87s are for.
-
Arlo, this clarification is for benefit ALL AXIS SQUADS. With the nature of having some extremely inflexible ride assignments for the Axis side, nearly every squad was given a mix of attack planes and pure fighters last frame. e.g. KN was assigned 4 109E's the rest in 109F-4's. After the drop, wouldn't it benefit those groups with mixed types(which was every squad) to remain at a similar location and altitude on egress?
-
Well, personally, if I was going to be a bomber all frame, I'd rather fly a bomber. There are 5 planes in this setup and 4 of them are tasked as bombers. It does not seem right to me, but then again it is not my setup. I am just pointing it out. I wouldn't mind one bit flying a couple bombs to a target, but not the entire frame. That is what Ju88s and Ju87s are for.
Which is a much more honest way of approaching the matter, I reckon. Even from the other side of this event, I fully agree. Like I said, I didn't see the need to even mention it until I saw the bit-piece 'clarification' game begin. :D
-
Arlo, this clarification is for benefit ALL AXIS SQUADS. With the nature of having some extremely inflexible ride assignments for the Axis side, nearly every squad was given a mix of attack planes and pure fighters last frame. e.g. KN was assigned 4 109E's the rest in 109F-4's. After the drop, wouldn't it benefit those groups with mixed types(which was every squad) to remain at a similar location and altitude on egress?
Sure! Fly the Franz at 15k. ;)
-
I am guessing you didnt read the whole thread. We know the Jabo alt cap is 15K. But apparently they become fighters when their ordnance is dropped. That sir, is not in the rules. However, we appreciate your input.
I appreciate your appreciation, sir. :aok I did, in fact, misunderstand your question. One-thousand apologies coming your way. :pray
Did we figure out whether this omission had an actual impact on the frame? Also, why would you climb to 20k on rtb if you're not supposed to be fighter sweeping?
-
Wow.. I can't believe this is still going...then again...yes I can.
Sorry Shifty, I was only asking half in jest, as I'm sure you know.
No...there was no impact in the frame. My question came from the position of frame 1 experience. JG11 was split 50/50 in (8)110's and (8)109f's. During the course of the night we picked up stragglers, survivors,...the lost 109E here and there...etc...
Targets were either destroyed, or out of reach, and was just really wondering what the rule was for late frame actions.
A 15K cap regardless of situation, on these airframes might make it easier for all.
-
Which is a much more honest way of approaching the matter, I reckon. Even from the other side of this event, I fully agree. Like I said, I didn't see the need to even mention it until I saw the bit-piece 'clarification' game begin. :D
:aok
-
Arlo, this clarification is for benefit ALL AXIS SQUADS. With the nature of having some extremely inflexible ride assignments for the Axis side, nearly every squad was given a mix of attack planes and pure fighters last frame. e.g. KN was assigned 4 109E's the rest in 109F-4's. After the drop, wouldn't it benefit those groups with mixed types(which was every squad) to remain at a similar location and altitude on egress?
One cannot really argue with the common sense logic of this statement, it in fact does benefit jabos, bombers and fighters alike. Also cannot argue the inflexible ride assignment theory, that actually effects both sides in this setup, more so probably the VVS than Axis, but still heavily effects both sides. In the end jabos/ bombers that are on egress to RTB mixed with pure fighters and escorts at 20K should not really pose a threat, so in essence no big deal.
:salute
-
Another point is brought up by Stampf. May the Emils and 110C's ditch bombs after rearm and go fighter? Thus allowing them to 20K.
This thread would come to an end if a CM would step up and answer a few questions.
-
Another point is brought up by Stampf. May the Emils and 110C's ditch bombs after rearm and go fighter? Thus allowing them to 20K.
This thread would come to an end if a CM would step up and answer a few questions.
:huh
You're rather lop-sided when it comes to rule interpretation and what is and isn't 'obvious.' :rofl
Swifty, 'end' the thread. Let's test the theory. :D
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/rules_zps67268f26.png)
-
Another point is brought up by Stampf. May the Emils and 110C's ditch bombs after rearm and go fighter? Thus allowing them to 20K.
This thread would come to an end if a CM would step up and answer a few questions.
That question was answered in my initial reply to Stampf. On page 1 post 3.
Yes it is. :)
After you make your Jabo attack you're free to fly up to the down draft if you wish.
Once you rearm you're a Jabo again.
-
This really should be black & white.
IMHO - If assigned a plane in the jabbo role, they shouldn't be above 15K period. Regardless if they have ord or not.
Against the I16... ...you really don't NEED alt!!! :lol
A small group of 109Es were enroute to target at 17K to 20K last week. They engaged the fight / furball with the 109Fs and I16s AFTER the merge but BEFORE attacking their target.
That was a rule violation (special rules). I recommend that if you are in the 109E (jabbo role) in this month's FSO, just stay below 15K and this thread would become obsolete...
:rock
SlipKnoT