Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: RotBaron on April 14, 2013, 03:45:18 AM
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Within the past ~month, I'm losing Panthers at a much greater rate than ever have. I'm also not alone in noticing this. I've counted approx. 5 times where one shot to front has killed it and a few other times where it was 2 or 3 (non-perk enemy or T34's.) Yesterday a Pz H single frontal shot killed me at ~1k. I've also counted 3 times where a T34 (late model) has one shot me to frontal armour, one of these times was ~2.5K. I'm only talking about frontal shot kills here, I understand the Panther is weak on side and rear of course.
1. Is the Panther weaker than it used to be is the question?
2. Also, the standard perk price seems to be around 15, I believe. Let's generically say, all things are equal, same amount of players on each side, approx how many kills does it take to even out to zero (no perk loss.) I know different tanks have different values, for simplicity sake lets just use the Pz H, how many to kill to be at zero?
TIA,
Rot
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2. Also, the standard perk price seems to be around 15, I believe. Let's generically say, all things are equal, same amount of players on each side, approx how many kills does it take to even out to zero (no perk loss.) I know different tanks have different values, for simplicity sake lets just use the Pz H, how many to kill to be at zero?
At perk bonus 1.0 (balanced sides) you need 31 kills of Panzer IVH in a Panther to break even. You would need 63 in a Tiger I, 500 in a Tiger II and 12 in a Sherman VC
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First, range and angle of impact are the trump cards. Just because the chart says your Y tank gun can defeat X tank armor are Z range, does not mean it is going to happen.
Second, nothing has changed with the Panther. It is still the beast it has always been. If something has changed it was not on purpose.
Third, the Panther G has a 12 ENY. In order for you to break even you need to *earn* 12 ENY points. So unless your destroying Panther tanks or better, you need to destroy a LOT more than 12 tanks to just break even. For instance, if the majority of the targets you're destroying are T34/85's (20 ENY), you'll need to destroy 17 T34/85's in a Panther just to break even. If the majority of the tanks your destroying at Pzr IV F's or M4/75's, or other such 40 ENY gv's, then you'll need to destroy 34 of them to break even at 12 perk points. Oh, and that hold try only if the ENY modifier is at 1.0, so remember that. :aok
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Third, the Panther G has a 12 ENY. In order for you to break even you need to *earn* 12 ENY points.
:huh
Panther has a perk cost of 15. This is amount you have to earn before you die. With an ENY of 12, the Panther gets 12/20 = 0.6 perks for each kill of a ENY 20 T-34. So he would have to kill 15/0.6 = 25 T-34/85 to break even
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I've lost so many Panthers to 1-shots from the dead front I don't bother using them anymore---Sherman has a decent enough sight
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I use the t-34/85 most of the time. I can kill the Panther with one shot to front armor, but only if I am close at a range of .5 to .6k or less with HVAP. I have never killed one with one shot using AP. The 85mm shell up close is very lethal. I have killed Tiger 1's to front armor as well, but only if I was even closer, say .3k or less. If you up a Panther it is better to shoot long range if you want to land those scalps. the Panthers I have killed at close range may have taken hits already. I 'll never know if they were fresh tanks. Damage accumulates. Many have complained about the Panther's front armor lately. I am just pointing out you may need to change your tactics. I'm sure HiTech will look into it. I often have trouble killing M-4's. I read somewhere they only had 85mm of armor, yet I get lots of ricochets. You have to shoot their front armor low or shoot them low in flank for a one shot kill.
Good luck
:salute
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Those T34/85 are a hard thing to kill. Last night I killed some of them at 2.6k. Took me somewhere between 7-10 hits from my tiger 1 to kill them. Angle was from a slightly higher position but still had to drop em in from that distance. They would bounce right off the front. Can't be sure but angle looked like something in the 30deg coming down on him. Is this something that is "normal" or maybe those tanks are a little too much for what they were. He also got approximately 4-5 hits on me in the same exchange of rounds/time. Good thing my reloader was faster :) my 2cent... not a tank expert by any means.
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Those T34/85 are a hard thing to kill. Last night I killed some of them at 2.6k. Took me somewhere between 7-10 hits from my tiger 1 to kill them. Angle was from a slightly higher position but still had to drop em in from that distance. They would bounce right off the front. Can't be sure but angle looked like something in the 30deg coming down on him. Is this something that is "normal" or maybe those tanks are a little too much for what they were. He also got approximately 4-5 hits on me in the same exchange of rounds/time. Good thing my reloader was faster :) my 2cent... not a tank expert by any means.
Taking you 7-10 hits, they have sups near em, unless you are counting the ricochet. Otherwise, it's been (for me anyways) one-two (two if I hit their track) shot kill for the 34/85's. Angle can factor quite a bit though, yes. Yesterday I had a Panzer H that was only 600-800 from my M8 score a hit on me. Fortunately it just ricocheted due to angle. He didn't get a 2nd hit before I got his turret, then him. :)
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:huh
Panther has a perk cost of 15. This is amount you have to earn before you die. With an ENY of 12, the Panther gets 12/20 = 0.6 perks for each kill of a ENY 20 T-34. So he would have to kill 15/0.6 = 25 T-34/85 to break even
Sorry. Got my ENY/perk numbers mixed up. ENY determines what is earned, the perk cost determines how much is at risk and the starting point for breaking even when earning perk points. Right thought, wrong formula. My bad.
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Don't up them. I die before I see a bad guy whenever I up a Panther. I can spend 15 minutes trolling around a camped spawn in a 75mm equipped M3 and not have a thing touch me, despite hundreds of rounds fired my way. The other pariah is the M18.
"I's a gonna spawn up over at that there spawn point, and done beetle my way around them all's rear."
Nup.
*Spawn* *Bong* *Tower*
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Every hit from an AP round is different. You can't just expect because you were hit in a certain way one time that the next time the exact same thing will (or won't) happen. Maybe you just had a bad streak of hits that penetrated the armor...it happens. Unless HTC says the Panther was changed it wasn't.
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Don't up them. I die before I see a bad guy whenever I up a Panther. I can spend 15 minutes trolling around a camped spawn in a 75mm equipped M3 and not have a thing touch me, despite hundreds of rounds fired my way. The other pariah is the M18.
"I's a gonna spawn up over at that there spawn point, and done beetle my way around them all's rear."
Nup.
*Spawn* *Bong* *Tower*
Is there ANYthing more glorious than sneaking up to an enemy tankand blasting him with an M3?
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Is there ANYthing more glorious than sneaking up to an enemy tankand blasting him with an M3?
No. However, shooting down Skyrock in a Brewster comes close.
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No. However, shooting down Skyrock in a Brewster comes close.
I got shot down by a Brewster last night...sneaky fast, those things are
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Every hit from an AP round is different. You can't just expect because you were hit in a certain way one time that the next time the exact same thing will (or won't) happen. Maybe you just had a bad streak of hits that penetrated the armor...it happens. Unless HTC says the Panther was changed it wasn't.
I think this has been the case if nothing has been changed; just string of bad luck.
Thanks to everybody for their input.
:salute
Rot
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It has gotten to be normal for armor guys to declare that they are seeing inconsistent results during engagements. There are a lot of factors in play and too many for the argument to always go against the game itself. First thing you have to know is that just because you see a bright sparkly hit does not mean that it was a kill shot. The second thing you have to realize is that the game involves people from very different areas of the world and when you shoot someone there may be a lot of lag involved. I can tell you from firsthand experience that you can shoot someone, have them rotate their barrel ninety degrees, and shoot before your hit causes them to explode. The faster connection will lose in simultaneous critical hits. The other tank may die too, but you will or will not get the kill depending on lag (I think). And lastly is this latest graphic issue where you see a hit, but the appearance afterwards is like a lightsaber dancing around the impact point. I'm convinced that is the game engine establishing the direction that the ricochet will actually follow, because if you slow down the film playback of the event you will see the tracer be drawn in several different directions in consecutive frames. Of course, it could also be the projectile breaking up, so your guess is as good as mine on that one.
The one thing I don't believe in is luck. It's human nature to say it, but the fact is their isn't a giant depository of luck in the universe with an unknown entity, or force, randomly handing out luck, good or bad. If there is, well I want that job, so I can mess up the rooks all day everyday.
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String of incomprehensible logical gobbledegook that makes me want to kill myself. I shall start with the Tamdhu.
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It was a metaphorical use of the phrase "bad luck," not to be construed with the actual phenomenon of having bad luck, i.e. unexplainable mysterious and universal forces which confound someone at every move they make.
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Maybe it's time to setup a custom arena and get a friend to help test all of the tank guns and armor. The friend just spawns the GV you indicate, while you test shots from different directions and ranges from different tanks.
I think it was pervert and a friend who tested the FW190-D9 with a jeep this way to see what the hit zones were by driving around it and shooting from different directions. You could do the same thing offline by making all of the drones tanks. But, offline everything is perfect.
You could go so far as to recruit players to help specifically for them knowing they have a problematical connection to test the armor from that perspective.
The responses to this post show you do not lack in GV oriented camaraderie.
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I've lost so many Panthers to 1-shots from the dead front I don't bother using them anymore---Sherman has a decent enough sight
Then you are engaging the enemy at too short a range and not using your panthers superior optics and cannon to your advantage.
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In my opinion the only thing superior to a panther would be the king tiger.
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Then you are engaging the enemy at too short a range and not using your panthers superior optics and cannon to your advantage.
near, far, seems to make little difference
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Only thing I find wrong with the panther is the weak tracks they fly right off at the slightest hit, I had a zero track me :noid other than that that tank is a beast.
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panther has a glass chin. i one shot them in the early panzer all the time, but you have to chin shot them. if chin is not visible and only thing you can hit is the front plate ant turret, they are hard to beat
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Angle of impact plays just as much of a role as range, there is a slider per say and the longer the range the more the thickness of the armor will save the targets tank. The closer the targeted tank is the more the angle of impact will play a role.
Remember, a Panther is actually safer at 600 yards vs some tanks than at 1200 yards. At 600 yards, the impact has to contend with the slope of the 80mm armor, at 1200 yards the incoming round is more perpendicular to the 80mm. And that is if the hull and incoming round are perpendicular, if the hull is canted a bit either way then there is another angle the round has to deal with. Like I've said, there are LOTS of variables. :aok
Oh... and remember the linear ranking [best to worst] of AP rounds in Aces High:
King Tiger
Firefly
Panther
Tiger
Panzer IV H
M4/76 and M18
T34/85 (AP)
Panzer IV F/2
M4/75
T34/76 (AP)
Panzer IV F/1
M8
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In my opinion the only thing superior to a panther would be the king tiger.
Panther can't kill a tiger but a tiger can kill a panther at 1k + if he is angled at you
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near, far, seems to make little difference
What do you consider near and far?
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near, far, seems to make little difference
Oh, I'd say range is at least %50 of the equation. :aok
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What do you consider near and far?
Whenever I use (used) a Panther, it WAS to make use of the awesome sight....always longer than 1500. I'd often take note of the guy's name, and see what he was driving....usually a T34 or a PanzerH
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Panther can't kill a tiger but a tiger can kill a panther at 1k + if he is angled at you
That could not be more false of a statement.
At 1K distance a Panthers AP round has 145mm of penetration at 0 degrees. A Tiger1 will penetrate 131mm.
The Tigers armor is slightly thicker in some areas in the front then the panther's, but is essentially not sloped at all unlike that of the panther.
In a frontal engagement from 1k-2k distances the Panther has the edge over the tiger from a pure numbers standpoint, however both will be able to destroy each other.
The Panther also enjoys better mobility, better speed, turret traverse, I think better reload times. What it lacks in is is side armor, and although you said "angled properly" in the case of these two heavies going up against at these ranges exposing side armor would be suicidal for either tank.
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Whenever I use (used) a Panther, it WAS to make use of the awesome sight....always longer than 1500. I'd often take note of the guy's name, and see what he was driving....usually a T34 or a PanzerH
1.5K is still in the danger zone for a Panther or tiger. 2.0k is starting to be the point where you begin to become immune to anything save for another panther, tiger(S) or a firefly.
The terrain can be used to further increase your survilability. A small hill could be driven up slightly to increase the effective angle of your armor, or to put you "hull down" The superior optics now make a huge difference in targeting. None of this means you cant be destroyed, but it sure does minimize the risk.
I think the biggest problem is that most(?) of the tank fights occur at such close ranges (under 1.5k) That alot of the perked tanks advantages are not utilized properly.
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no doubt....remember a scenario recently...3-4 of us were fighting 3-4 of them---was one of those deals where 2 spawns intersected in the middle of nowhere. Kept seeing the same guy in a T34 driving up, and ALL of us noticed it took a ridiculous amount of hits to kill him. What I finally noticed was he AlWAYS turned his T34 about 30 degrees to the far side, and sure enough, 1 shot after another would bounce off him, even from Tigers
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1.5K is still in the danger zone for a Panther or tiger. 2.0k is starting to be the point where you begin to become immune to anything save for another panther, tiger(S) or a firefly.
The terrain can be used to further increase your survilability. A small hill could be driven up slightly to increase the effective angle of your armor, or to put you "hull down" The superior optics now make a huge difference in targeting. None of this means you cant be destroyed, but it sure does minimize the risk.
I think the biggest problem is that most(?) of the tank fights occur at such close ranges (under 1.5k) That alot of the perked tanks advantages are not utilized properly.
Indeed, I get very comfortable in a Panther when enemy tanks are at 1600 yards and greater. If can get cover from the direct threats (King Tiger, Tiger, Firefly, and Panther), not much else can run with a Panther beyond 1600 yards in a head to head match up.