Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karnak on April 26, 2013, 11:41:28 AM
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We don't know all of HTC's intentions with a given ENY rating, or how they weight in game usage, air-to-air capability, air-to-ground capability and ease of use. It may be that all of the ENY's are right where HTC wants them.
However, from player's perspectives there are some that stand out as being perhaps needing to be reexamined. Please post examples of ENY values you think might need to be adjusted and why you think it needs to be adjusted.
Bf109K-4 (ENY 20) or P-47M (ENY 10), Spitfire Mk XIV (ENY 5, 10 Perk Points) and Ta152H-1 (ENY 10).
The Bf109K-4 is at least competitive with the other three fighters and in some cases is superior. All four fighters are functionally air-to-air interceptors only. Either the Bf109K-4's ENY is too low or the other three fighter's ENYs are too high.
Bf109F-4 (ENY 35) or Spitfire Mk V (ENY 25).
The Bf109F-4's usage and K/D are higher than the Spitfire Mk V (per Lusche's charts) and it has significantly higher performance. The guns favor the Spitfire Mk V, but it has a short ammo clip of only 6 seconds compared to more than 15 seconds for the Bf109F-4's single 20mm cannon. Both are functionally air-to-air only. Either the Spitfire Mk V's ENY is too high or the Bf109F-4's ENY is too low.
Ki-84-Ia (ENY 20).
The Ki-84 is a very capable, all round fighter. It has decent firepower, range, agility, speed, durability and bomb load. It seems, based purely on performance, that its ENY is too low.
Mosquito Mk VI (ENY 30).
The Mosquito is fast at typical AH combat altitudes, has tremendous, concentrated firepower, a good bomb load and is pretty durable. It seems, based purely on performance, that its ENY is too low.
Any others? Fw190A-8? Any of the F4Us? P-51B? Any others too high? P-39s or P-40s? Me410? What do you guys think?
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I'm guessing they're right where HTC wants them...
I don't think things can progress in a meaningful direction without mentioning the Spit16, LA7, and P51. All are extremely low ENY (and must stay so) but all are quite capable.
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We don't know all of HTC's intentions with a given ENY rating, or how they weight in game usage, air-to-air capability, air-to-ground capability and ease of use. It may be that all of the ENY's are right where HTC wants them.
It may be time to take a look if anything thing needs to be adjusted.
HiTech
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Hitech, I think you should publish the rubric so the finer points of eny could be debated by the masses on the wishlist forum. Assuming a rubric even exists.
I don't think the p47M is a 10ENY plane. More like 15ENY. At typical MA alts, The F4U-1A is faster and turns better. Waayy better. Their acceleration is the same [just bad]. The p47M may out-dive the hog, but the ability to run away is not really a fun reason for the lower ENY. Offensively, your gonna chop throttle in a dive anyways because even the jug compresses. It compresses before the pony does too. That info is somewhere in these forums. The P47M beats the ki84 in top speed, but the ki84 still out-accelertes, out-turns, and out-climbs the P47M [at typical MA alts]. The P47M is outclassed by the K4 in all respects up to 30,000ft.
The best argument for such a relatively low ENY value in the Jug is the 8 .50s, but I think the lethality of 8 .50s is overestimated. First you have to maneuver for a shot. And when you do, you have to hit at convergence for that OMG8FIFTYSGOBOOM effect. Otherwise, the guns seem marginally better than those of the F4U-1A. Just my $0.02.
And then there's the F6F-5, the best plane that no one is flying.
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Hitech, I think you should publish the rubric so the finer points of eny could be debated by the masses on the wishlist forum. Assuming a rubric even exists.
I don't think the p47M is a 10ENY plane. More like 15ENY. At typical MA alts, The F4U-1A is faster and turns better. Waayy better. Their acceleration is the same [just bad]. The p47M may out-dive the hog, but the ability to run away is not really a fun reason for the lower ENY. Offensively, your gonna chop throttle in a dive anyways because even the jug compresses. It compresses before the pony does too. That info is somewhere in these forums. The P47M beats the ki84 in top speed, but the ki84 still out-accelertes, out-turns, and out-climbs the P47M [at typical MA alts]. The P47M is outclassed by the K4 in all respects up to 30,000ft.
The best argument for such a relatively low ENY value in the Jug is the 8 .50s, but I think the lethality of 8 .50s is overestimated. First you have to maneuver for a shot. And when you do, you have to hit at convergence for that OMG8FIFTYSGOBOOM effect. Otherwise, the guns seem marginally better than those of the F4U-1A. Just my $0.02.
And then there's the F6F-5, the best plane that no one is flying.
The lack of ord and lack of turning ability alone should get the P47M up above 12 ENY, imo. Forget everything else.
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The lack of ord and lack of turning ability alone should get the P47M up above 12 ENY, imo. Forget everything else.
In your opinion, does that go for the Spitfire Mk XIV and Ta152H-1 as well?
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Part of the reason I choose an aircraft is also the visibility offered. The big bars in the way on the 109K4 certainly make it more difficult the spitfires, P51's, etc.
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Part of the reason I choose an aircraft is also the visibility offered. The big bars in the way on the 109K4 certainly make it more difficult the spitfires, P51's, etc.
Sure, but does that justify the ENY 20 for the Bf109K-4 compared to the ENY 5 for the Spitfire Mk XIV when they have otherwise similar performance with some edges to the Spitfire and some to the 109?
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Sure, but does that justify the ENY 20 for the Bf109K-4 compared to the ENY 5 for the Spitfire Mk XIV when they have otherwise similar performance with some edges to the Spitfire and some to the 109?
I was not arguering about specific values, only offering my opinion of one of the things that effect what makes an aircraft more/less desireable. I really love the way the P38 handles but I find blind spots in it more pronounced because of the visibility limitations the twin engines afford. I highly value Situational Awareness. Visibility effects that alot I believe.
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Hitech, I think you should publish the rubric so the finer points of eny could be debated by the masses on the wishlist forum. Assuming a rubric even exists.
Maybe this would be a good way to begin. I doubt HTC will post theirs, and even if they do I'm sure some of us would ask for revisions.
So... Let's create our own system for ranking, and see where that places the different planes. It would probably be fairly easy to do in Excel, based on various criteria- speed, accel, decel, firepower, climb, etc.
In the end though, I think we're going to need to include a large, diverse selection of high-performing planes that have little or no ENY. Some of the best "standard" (i.e. non-jets) planes need to be available at no perk-cost, and no risk of being limited due to ENY controls. These need to be there so that new players with little or no perks and skills have a hope to compete against the veteran players.
Maybe the best method would be to rank all of the existing planes, and then label a bunch of them as "ENY exempt"?
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Unfortunately I suspect that it would be anything but easy to create a matrix upon which a broad consensus can be reached. Everybody will have different levels of importance that they assign to various aspects being measured as well as disagreements about things that cannot be precisely measured such as cockpit visibility, instrumentation, durability, shape/size affects and armament value.
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you mean the Ki84 ENY is to high?
I agree should be around 10
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b17's should have an eny of 5. all thanks to 999.
semp
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Well, two that come to my mind straight away are Hurricane Mk.II and Me410.
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B-17 and B-24 both have 20 ENY. The difference in survivability is much bigger than the difference in bombload. The B-17's ENY needs to be less than the B-24's. the Lanc is 15, so make the B-17, 17.
109 G14 is 25 ENY and should be 20. 109 K4 is 20 and should be 10-12.
110G and 410 are 15 but Mossie6 is 30. :headscratch: All three should be 20 ENY.
The B-239 is 30 and should be 25.
The F4U-1 is 25 and should be 20
The F4U-1A is 15 and should be 10-12
The 190 A8, A5 and F8 are all 25 ENY. The F8 lacks the firepower of the A8 and the handling of the A5. The A5/A8 should be 22 ENY.
The G4M1 is 30 ENY, while the Ju88 is 35. :headscratch: The Betty is 40 ENY all the way.
The Ki-43 has no business at 40 ENY. Try a 40 ENY Spit I, Hurri I or C.202 against it. Even an A6M2 can't hang with it. New ENY of 32.
La-5 is 25 and should be 20.
P-38L (15 ENY)is comparable to the F4U-1D (10 ENY)in bomb trucking. P-38L drops to 12 ENY.
P-38J's only difference from the L is rocket tubes. New ENY 15.
P-47M and N are both 10 ENY but M carries no ords. 47M is bumped to 12 ENY.
Ki-84 is 20 ENY and should be 12.
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109F is ENY 30 (not 35) and is fine at that. Just like other 30+ ENY planes (A6Ms, Ki43, etc) it's easy to beat, just don't turn fight it. These planes do not have to engine power to fight back against BnZ tactics. I'd say it's the Spit 5 that's too low.
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P-51D's ENY of 5... why? It's a good ride, but it's not ENY 5 good.
Is it strictly to prevent perk farming in it?
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Caldera,
I'd say the Me410 ought to be between 22 and 25. 20 for the Mossie sounds about right. The Bf110G-2's air-to-ground capability is so strong that I think it really needs to be between 10 and 15.
P-51D's ENY of 5... why? It's a good ride, but it's not ENY 5 good.
Is it strictly to prevent perk farming in it?
Usage. It is used more than twice as much as any other fighter.
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To me the ENY and the perks rates should have some weighting to historical number of planes in use for that period of time. Too many 109s as a percent of total planes in the simulation and the ENY drops to zero or maybe a negative for that model as an example. Too many 262's and the perk cost goes to a 1000, zero 262s and perk cost goes to 100 as a perk cost example.
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To me the ENY and the perks rates should have some weighting to historical number of planes in use for that period of time.
You want the Ostwind to have any ENY of 2? ;)
Keep in mind we are not simulating WW2. We just use the equipment. We have to balance the game in dependency on what is happening in the game. Real world production numbers can't matter, especially considering the different fuctions ENY has to fulfill in AH.
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You want the Ostwind to have any ENY of 2? ;)
Keep in mind we are not simulating WW2. We just use the equipment. We have to balance the game in dependency on what is happening in the game. Real world production numbers can't matter, especially considering the different fuctions ENY has to fulfill in AH.
C.205 is another example of a not overwhelmingly powerful unit that would see its ENY at 3 or 4 under such a system.
In addition, what timeframe are we talking about? Currently in flight? Used in the last 24 hours?
Seems like it would be easily broken.
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Hurricane Mk1 = 40 eny which is fine.
Sea Hurricane Mk1 = 12-15 (I cannot remember). Even with the 4 cannons this plane should not be the same eny as the Seafire or lower eny then any of the F4Us. if you take the 8 303s then the eny is really a joke.
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Usage. It is used more than twice as much as any other fighter.
Are the ENY numbers different in EW and MW vs LW or are they the same?
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Bf109K-4 (ENY 20) or P-47M (ENY 10), Spitfire Mk XIV (ENY 5, 10 Perk Points) and Ta152H-1 (ENY 10).
The Bf109K-4 is at least competitive with the other three fighters and in some cases is superior. All four fighters are functionally air-to-air interceptors only. Either the Bf109K-4's ENY is too low or the other three fighter's ENYs are too high.
Agreed. The 30mm is hard to aim but gives a one-hit kill capability that no other fighter armament has. It has the speed and firepower to murder bombers in slashing attacks like few other prop planes in the game. I'd give the K4 a 5 based on flight characteristics and killing power but bump it to 10 for the bad ballistics and bad views. It's not easy to learn but with a skilled pilot and its fantastic vertical performance nothing with an ENY worse than 15 or so can touch it in its element.
Bf109F-4 (ENY 35) or Spitfire Mk V (ENY 25).
The Bf109F-4's usage and K/D are higher than the Spitfire Mk V (per Lusche's charts) and it has significantly higher performance. The guns favor the Spitfire Mk V, but it has a short ammo clip of only 6 seconds compared to more than 15 seconds for the Bf109F-4's single 20mm cannon. Both are functionally air-to-air only. Either the Spitfire Mk V's ENY is too high or the Bf109F-4's ENY is too low.
I hadn't flown either all that much until recently, but after flying these planes almost solely against each other extensively on both sides in the Malta scenario and TDIH I would take the Spit V all day against the 109F-4. More ammo doesn't help you if you get killed before you can use it up, and the F-4's combination of one 20mm plus two useless popguns makes it much, much harder to get kills unless you can saddle up on somebody and shoot them up for a good long while. It seems to me that anything less than two 20mms or 6 .50s crosses a critical threshold when it comes to snap shots. And the Spit V is superior in just about every respect at higher altitudes.
Ki-84-Ia (ENY 20).
The Ki-84 is a very capable, all round fighter. It has decent firepower, range, agility, speed, durability and bomb load. It seems, based purely on performance, that its ENY is too low.
Agreed in general, but, while it's great in a low furball, it has one severe limitation in the MA: unless you're low and slow anything Allied or German can just dive away and laugh as the Ki starts shedding parts. I'd put it at no more than 15 for that reason.
In general, it seems to me that just about every German plane in the game should be bumped up by about 5 (10 for the K-4 which is a killing machine). The Fw-190D-9 is a dominant fighter in many environments, a decent pilot can slaughter slower turny birds with impunity all day in it with a little patience and SA. It should be no worse than 10. As you noted, the Ju-88 is better than a Betty in every respect and while it's light on bomb load it has an unmatched ship-killing capability with torpedoes.
I suspect the Luftwaffe birds are docked for having steep learning curves, but with a skilled pilot who's past the early part of that curve their capability is much higher than their ENYs suggest. If anything I'd say planes like that which are difficult for newbies to fly but murderous in the hands of vets should be hit harder by ENY because the vets are the people who need limiting the most when they have a numbers advantage - a horde of noobs are just more cannon fodder no matter what plane they're flying, but a bunch of aces in 109K-4s and with superior numbers are death on a stick.
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B-17 and B-24 both have 20 ENY. The difference in survivability is much bigger than the difference in bombload. The B-17's ENY needs to be less than the B-24's. the Lanc is 15, so make the B-17, 17.
109 G14 is 25 ENY and should be 20. 109 K4 is 20 and should be 10-12.
110G and 410 are 15 but Mossie6 is 30. :headscratch: All three should be 20 ENY.
The B-239 is 30 and should be 25.
The F4U-1 is 25 and should be 20
The F4U-1A is 15 and should be 10-12
The 190 A8, A5 and F8 are all 25 ENY. The F8 lacks the firepower of the A8 and the handling of the A5. The A5/A8 should be 22 ENY.
The G4M1 is 30 ENY, while the Ju88 is 35. :headscratch: The Betty is 40 ENY all the way.
The Ki-43 has no business at 40 ENY. Try a 40 ENY Spit I, Hurri I or C.202 against it. Even an A6M2 can't hang with it. New ENY of 32.
La-5 is 25 and should be 20.
P-38L (15 ENY)is comparable to the F4U-1D (10 ENY)in bomb trucking. P-38L drops to 12 ENY.
P-38J's only difference from the L is rocket tubes. New ENY 15.
P-47M and N are both 10 ENY but M carries no ords. 47M is bumped to 12 ENY.
Ki-84 is 20 ENY and should be 12.
Notice that you are leaving empty a big gap from 25 to 40. That's 15 eny points, or 40% of the eny scale. When graphed the eny scale should look like a bell curve, not a U curve.
Also lowering the B239 to 25? It has absolutely no air to ground capability, 4 seconds of non explosive ammo, and you want to lower it into 400mph jabo range?
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When ENY kicks in ,starts from 1 and lowest ENY toys is 5; imo this is the problem.
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(...) and lowest ENY toys is 5 (...)
It's 2...
... but I admit that's just bloody unnecessary nitpicking by me, as blocking the B-29 has no real influence on the game at all. Few NOE basegrabs are done with the Superfortress :D
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Are the ENY numbers different in EW and MW vs LW or are they the same?
Each arena has its own ENY settings.
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Unfortunately I suspect that it would be anything but easy to create a matrix upon which a broad consensus can be reached. Everybody will have different levels of importance that they assign to various aspects being measured as well as disagreements about things that cannot be precisely measured such as cockpit visibility, instrumentation, durability, shape/size affects and armament value.
It is not unfortunate that people will disagree about the importance that they assign to various aspects being measured. That's the point of debating it. Then, HTC can assign their own level of importance to whatever change someone is arguing for.
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"109 K4 is 20 and should be 10-12."
WTF! it otta be 5 like the pony. its faster (in the modeller`s world), climbs better and one of those taters hits harder than 50 rounds of 50 cals. :mad:
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The Ki-43 has no business at 40 ENY. Try a 40 ENY Spit I, Hurri I or C.202 against it. Even an A6M2 can't hang with it. New ENY of 32.
Yeah...if Ki-43-I is released, it should be ENY 40. The Ki-43-II is around 30-35 fighter.
The Ki-84-I-a would be around 15. The Ki-84-I-b would be 5 fine if it's added. :D
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In your opinion, does that go for the Spitfire Mk XIV and Ta152H-1 as well?
To this day I do not understand why the Spit 14 is perked. It may be the fastest Spit, but it is the worst turning, it has no ord, and has no greater range than any other Spitfires either. Oh, and the massive torque it produces makes it one of the most quirky in the game (even worse than the 190K-4). The Ta152 is capable... up high. Yeah, some hotdogs can make it dance at lower levels but there is a reason it is left behind in most cases. This Spitfire 14 is hindered by the lack of range and is quirky, the Ta152 has more range but still lags behind in other categories.
IMO, when assigning an ENY the entire spectrum of a plane's abilities need to be taken in to account. Attributes such as speed (both usable and tertiary), acceleration, climb, sustained turn radius, roll rate, gun package(s), ordnance capacity, structural integrity, and range should all on a slider. Aircraft like the P51D are going to have most of its sliders are towards the "best" end of the spectrum, while aircraft like the P40C are going to be at the "worst" end of the spectrum. Aircraft like the Spit14 and Ta152 do have some of the more important factors that make them more valuable for certain duties such as high speed and high alt interceptions (speed, climb rate, high altitude performance), but offer nothing in terms of moving dirt. In AH, they offer nothing more than what the P51x can do ***at altitudes below 28k***, and the P51x offers far more range and forgiveness in operation.
The P51D is to fighters and dirt movers as the B29 is to the bombers: it is second to none. Compare all the P51D can do vs every other plane in the game and I think it should be clear as to why it has the 5 ENY, and possibly could use an even lower ENY score of 3 or 4.
Back to the Spit 14 and Ta152, and more so the Spit14, I think if HTC removed the perk cost we wouldn't see them any more except for the high altitude stuff. If the Spit 14 is perked, why is the P51D and Spit 16 not? :headscratch:
I also think HTC could very well apply a small perk cost to a whole host of aircraft. Anything from the P51D, La7, Spit16, Lancs, Nik2, Typhoon, and maybe even the P38L. I'm talking about a 1-2 perk cost at best. They did so with the gv's so why not the best of the fighters?
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Well, hitech did reply on the first page of this thread, so there may be some adjustments coming. It will be interesting to see.
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Well, hitech did reply on the first page of this thread, so there may be some adjustments coming. It will be interesting to see.
Yes! :)
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ENY is difficult to quantify. If you're basing ENY on what an aircraft CAN do, it must be quantifiable and performance placed relative to the rest of the entire planeset, to include every submodel in the game. Not just that, performance factors have to be weighed relative to the environment to a degree since not every plane model is represented uniformly in the MA.
I break performance down into 4 general categories, each with its own constituent factors: Vector, Maneuver, Engagement & Intangibles. Each category's constituent factors have a weight. Weight is subjective but here's my stab...
Vector:
Top Speed (200), Acceleration (50), Dive Characteristics (40), Climb (60) = 350pts
Maneuver:
Turn (includes instant, sustained, flap deploy speed and flap effectiveness (100), Roll (100) = 200pts
Engagement:
Toughness (includes not only damage tolerance but system redundancy and resilience. The F4U-1A would trump the -1D because it has multiple fuel tanks) (50), Firepower (magnitude x duration x range x ballistics factor) (100), Disposables (drop tanks, bombs, rockets) (100) = 250pts
Intangibles:
Visibility (how well you can see from inside cockpit as well as cockpit instrument layout) (100), Target Profile (how big a target your aircraft is) (50), Availability (reflects production, CV availability. Hellcats were mass produced which would add a zero here, but since it is available from a CV, it gets the full 50pts. The P-47M with a production run of 130 would get a 40 or 50) (50), Combat Endurance (combination of the difference between max fuel consumption and cruise fuel consumption and overall range based on internal fuel only) =250pts
Within each subcategory, I assigned points based on the percentage of the overall planeset that aircraft trumps within the category. For example, the P-51D outruns some 90%+ of the planeset. Of the 200 points available in the top speed subcat, the 51D would get ~185, while a Hellcat would get somewhere in the vicinity of 90 points. Rinse and repeat for each subcat.
Total points available 1050.
Based on subjective assessment, here's what I came out with (rounded to nearest 5pt increment).
190A5: 620, Tempest: 780, P-47N: 740, P-47M: 675, P-47D40: 605, P-47D25: 585, P-47D11: 470, Yak-9U: 615, D9: 730, 38L: 580, 38J: 550, Ki-43: 475, Ki-84: 660, ME410: 480, ME110G2: 470, P40C: 395, F6F: 595, Spit16: 645, Spit14: 635, Spit8: 595, Spit9: 485, 109G2: 495, 109K4: 570, LA7: 675, P-51D: 705, P-51B: 625, P-39D: 380, P-39Q: 420, F4U4: 760, -1A: 660, -1D: 685, FM-2: 490, Moss6: 580, Brew: 530, IL-2: 415.
The system broke down somewhat when I got to the 262. The Temp does pretty much everything the 262 can do, but better with the exception of top speed. However, while the Temp gets something like 196 points in the category, the 262 and 163's huge speed advantages over the Temp amounted to just a 3-4 points within the speed category because everything is based on the percentage of the planeset trumped, not necessarily magnitude. (I let this discrep go because it was easier and reflected the law of decreasing return) The 262 came in at a measly 700 and the ME163 came in at 770. Hmm. :headscratch:
Now, when looking at the F6F (595) vs the K4 (570), you'd think the F6F is the more capable aircraft overall, and you'd be right. But in strictly A-A categories (vector+maneuver), the K4 trumps the F6F 410-295. Different aircraft make bank in different categories, therefore it may be useful to have separate ENY values for a given aircraft for fighter and attack mode. A ME410 would deserve a 5 or 10ENY value under the current system in attack mode but something like 30 if in fighter mode. (Personally not in favor, too complicated)
Aircraft sampling mean point value: (20410/35)=583.
If we round and take 580 to be the middle ground of 20ENY, square the difference between a given aircraft and the mean value and divide by 1000, then add or subtract from 20, you get a bell curve as well as a fairly good approximation of ENY. A few examples: the 51D would be 4.4ENY. IE: 705-580=125. 125^2=15625. 15625/1000=15.625. 20.0-15.625=4.38. The Ki-84 would be 13.6ENY, K4: 19.9, Spit 16: 15.7, Spit 14: 17ENY (very much unperked), Yak-9U: 18.8, C.205: 30ENY, F4U4: -20 (costs 20 perks to up) etc etc.
I think something of a broader scale is more representative of what actually occurs in the MA. The P-39Q and 109G2 are both currently at 30ENY, but the Q can't hold a candle to the G-2. The P-39Q would have an ENY of 46 while the G-2 would sit at 31. The lowly P-39D for reference would sit at 60ENY :O With things scaled as such, we could keep the current fighter score metrics, but also add a category for perk points accrued per hour multiplied by percentage of sorties landed or somesuch. Yes, I like the idea of a little more MA diversity. :salute
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Huh, nice writeup!
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"109 K4 is 20 and should be 10-12."
WTF! it otta be 5 like the pony. its faster (in the modeller`s world), climbs better and one of those taters hits harder than 50 rounds of 50 cals. :mad:
Something I forgot to note in my response: ord capacity plays a role too, otherwise the D-hog wouldn't have a better ENY than the -1A. The pony can do everything it does in air-to-air combat AND take out a hangar in one pass. It also has long legs and performs well at higher altitudes. The K-4 is fantastic at what it does but the roles in which it is effective are more limited.
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I think ENY is fine as it is for most if not all the aircraft in game.
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"109 K4 is 20 and should be 10-12."
WTF! it otta be 5 like the pony. its faster (in the modeller`s world), climbs better and one of those taters hits harder than 50 rounds of 50 cals. :mad:
Dear, the fact that you dont use any other part of the aircraft but the engine, doesnt mean that the aircraft is nothing else but an engine ;)
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Letalis,
It looks like you left usage out of your system. Usage has a major impact on ENY currently as usage is one of the largest determining factors in the effect an aircraft has on the MA.
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This post in my megathread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,345669.msg4565254.html#msg4565254) may be pertinent to this discussion.
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Letalis,
It looks like you left usage out of your system. Usage has a major impact on ENY currently as usage is one of the largest determining factors in the effect an aircraft has on the MA.
Good point. Wasn't sure about pandering to this factor, but it is a factor nonetheless.
I don't have access to sortie counts, and because k/d is often skewed by a small number of pilots, I settled on overall kills as my baseline for fighter aircraft. So here goes...
Right now the Spit16 has about 9k kills out of 288.5k total for the MA, about 3% of the total. If we take the total kill % for the S16 and square it, you get 9. Subtract 9 from the 15.7 figure established earlier and you get 6.7ENY for the Spit16 at current usage levels. Of course, there are secondary effects: the Spit 14 for example would be unperked and eat a greater portion of Spit sorties. I'd expect both types to end up between 8 and 10ENY as a result.
Using the same formula, the 51D with it's 5.3% (15.6k) of MA kills would end up at 24 perks at current usage levels. (5.3^2=28.1, 28.1-4.4=23.7) Of course this is higher than it would ever get if this system were in use the first place. If the Pony were tempered as such and had a more nominal 6k kills at this point in the tour, you'd get an aircraft that costs just a couple perks.(2.1^2=4.41 Since ENY stops at 2, we actually start going negative (costing perks) at 2, so the 51D with 6k kills would cost 2.4 perks, rounding down to 2.)
It is a pretty easy (but unpopular argument) looking at Lusche's stats that the 51D unbalances the game more than the Spit16. Besides, you make ONE kill of a 4ENY (baseline value) 51D in your 60ENY 39D, you've just earned 15 perks or 7 free rides in a pony. (More if you get kills and don't simply roll, invert and pull at the departure end of the runway)
The Ki-84 with its 4k kills at this point in the tour would see a -1.9ENY penalty at current usage levels putting it at 13.6-1.9=11.7ENY. The K4 would sit at -4ENY and 16ENY with current use.
ENY modification would only apply to types which make up more than 1% of total MA kills.
When a new tour starts and there are no K/D numbers to reference. It'd be necessary to temporarily lock the perk costs based on previous tour usage for a set period of time till a sufficient sampling within the new tour is generated. :salute
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B-17 and B-24 both have 20 ENY. The difference in survivability is much bigger than the difference in bombload. The B-17's ENY needs to be less than the B-24's. the Lanc is 15, so make the B-17, 17.
109 G14 is 25 ENY and should be 20. 109 K4 is 20 and should be 10-12.
110G and 410 are 15 but Mossie6 is 30. :headscratch: All three should be 20 ENY.
The B-239 is 30 and should be 25.
The F4U-1 is 25 and should be 20
The F4U-1A is 15 and should be 10-12
The 190 A8, A5 and F8 are all 25 ENY. The F8 lacks the firepower of the A8 and the handling of the A5. The A5/A8 should be 22 ENY.
The G4M1 is 30 ENY, while the Ju88 is 35. :headscratch: The Betty is 40 ENY all the way.
The Ki-43 has no business at 40 ENY. Try a 40 ENY Spit I, Hurri I or C.202 against it. Even an A6M2 can't hang with it. New ENY of 32.
La-5 is 25 and should be 20.
P-38L (15 ENY)is comparable to the F4U-1D (10 ENY)in bomb trucking. P-38L drops to 12 ENY.
P-38J's only difference from the L is rocket tubes. New ENY 15.
P-47M and N are both 10 ENY but M carries no ords. 47M is bumped to 12 ENY.
Ki-84 is 20 ENY and should be 12.
B-17 and B-24 both have 20 ENY. The difference in survivability is much bigger than the difference in bombload. The B-17's ENY needs to be less than the B-24's. the Lanc is 15, so make the B-17, 17. agree
B17 much harder to kill , even lower it more.
109 G14 is 25 ENY and should be 20. 109 K4 is 20 and should be 10-12.
110G and 410 are 15 but Mossie6 is 30. :headscratch: All three should be 20 ENY. Mossie has 4 hispanos, vastly outclimbs and outfly both the other planes, also have internal ord :headscratch: :headscratch:
The B-239 is 30 and should be 25.
The F4U-1 is 25 and should be 20
The F4U-1A is 15 and should be 10-12
The 190 A8, A5 and F8 are all 25 ENY. The F8 lacks the firepower of the A8 and the handling of the A5. The A5/A8 should be 22 ENY. F8 probably worst turner in game, challenged only by 410. F8, A5 and A8 are VERY different planes in MA,energy burn makes this stay up there in ENY, I would say 25/22/30
The G4M1 is 30 ENY, while the Ju88 is 35. :headscratch: The Betty is 40 ENY all the way.agree
The Ki-43 has no business at 40 ENY. Try a 40 ENY Spit I, Hurri I or C.202 against it. Even an A6M2 can't hang with it. New ENY of 32.
La-5 is 25 and should be 20.
P-38L (15 ENY)is comparable to the F4U-1D (10 ENY)in bomb trucking. P-38L drops to 12 ENY. No, it cant dive with many planes, big target
P-38J's only difference from the L is rocket tubes. New ENY 15. this one dives even worse
P-47M and N are both 10 ENY but M carries no ords. 47M is bumped to 12 ENY.
Ki-84 is 20 ENY and should be 12.
I would prefer to have one Attack ENY and one Fighter ENY for a aircraft model. Example 190F8 is an excellent ground-attack plane,at the same time few if anyone would put their foot into the same plane as a fighter = ENY A10/F35
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No problem with making the B-17 even lower, say 15 ENY. Ultimate bombload/vulnerable Lanc = medium bombload/ultimate survivability B-17.
110G can fight pretty well and is at least as dangerous as the Mossie. The 410 has stand-off ability to kill bombers and tailguns. They are all different but more or less in the same ball park.
30 ENY seems a little generous for the F8. It is fast and has good firepower. Make it 28, the A5 24 and the A8 22.
The 38s seem to dive on me quite well. In fact, the modus operandi seems to be: "perch, dive, zoom, rope, repeat".
And to the guy that complained about making the B-239, 25 ENY: "dude - seriously?"
These are all just opinions anyway - and from an AH plebe, at that. :)
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The Bf110G-2 needs to be lower than the Mosquito Mk VI or the Me410. The Bf110G-2's forte is not air-to-air, where it is inferior to the Mosquito, though superior to the Me410. Its forte is as an attacker and in that role no fighter can match it, not even the P-47N or P-38L. It carries more than twice the destructive power of a Mosquito Mk VI and for that, when sides are imbalanced, the side with numbers needs to lose their Bf110G-2s.
Bf110G-2: ENY 12
Mosquito Mk VI: ENY 20
Me410: ENY 25
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Specifically regarding the bombers: If the B29 is a 2, and the Boston, G4M, Ki-67, etc, are a 40, me thinks the Lancaster, B24, and B17 could use an adjustment in ENY and OBJ scores. The gap is simply too big, imo. Also, the Lancaster, B24, and B17 could all use a small perk cost as well considering their ability to lay waste to targets. Think of the offensive capabilities, think of what they can do. I know some will speak up regarding the Ar234 and Mossi B Mk 16 and their speed, but when was the last time anyone panicked when they saw a flight or 3 of Ar234's or Mossi B Mk 16's? I'd much rather see a flight of Ar234's roaring over my airfield than a flight of B17's. The speed demons are ultimately 1 pass wonders and wont be hanging around. The Lancs, B24's, B17's, etc, can spread their damage over a much larger area and loiter for a lot longer thanks to defensive capabilities and escort benefits.
On suggesting a perk price for the Lanc, B24, and B17: currently, players keep banking earned perks and they ultimately have very little to spend their perks on (aside from the B29). I say give the other heavy bombers their due and add a 1-2 perk cost to them, AND lower their ENY. Remember, escort fighters in WWII were common so the "bombers are defenseless" argument is a double edged sword in AH. Use escort fighters.
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I would not object to seeing a number of planes perked at 1 to 2 points as we see with things like the M4A3(76), M18 and T-34/85. I know that there are reasons why not, but I guess in for a penny in for a pound.
P-51D: 2 perks
La-7: 2 perks
Spitfire Mk XVI: 2 perks
B-17G: 2 perks
Lancaster Mk III: 2 perks
Typhoon Mk I: 1 perk
N1K2-J: 1 perk
P-47N: 1 perk
Fw190D-9: 1 perk
Bf109K-4: 1 perk
Spitfire Mk XIV: 1 perk
B-24J: 1 perk
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I would not object to seeing a number of planes perked at 1 to 2 points as we see with things like the M4A3(76), M18 and T-34/85. I know that there are reasons why not, but I guess in for a penny in for a pound.
P-51D: 2 perks
La-7: 2 perks
Spitfire Mk XVI: 2 perks
B-17G: 2 perks
Lancaster Mk III: 2 perks
Typhoon Mk I: 1 perk
N1K2-J: 1 perk
P-47N: 1 perk
Fw190D-9: 1 perk
Bf109K-4: 1 perk
Spitfire Mk XIV: 1 perk
B-24J: 1 perk
[/quote+1
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The problem with perking heavies is that they will all fly over 25k. Lowering their ENY and making the medium/light bombers a better bargain should be enough. As much as I'd love to hit the 51D with a perk of 1-2 points, imagine the timidity factor going up further still.
Making superior hardware less rewarding (lower ENY) may be better than making them more costly. Oh and having ENY kick in sooner would be a plus. :aok
There is a limit to that as well. People want to fly the leet stuff, so you have to be careful how much ENY/perk tinkering gets done. Making it lucrative to fly less than leet fighters and bombers, while still allowing the occasional use of the best stuff. That's why the 51 dropped to 5 ENY but isn't perked. Maybe a 4 or 3 ENY might help a little more. Doubt it would help that much, though. Perking would cut down the numbers, but that would mostly hurt the noobs.
Would be nice if the ENY scale was redone to go from 5-60 or 5-100 even. There could be much more incentives to fly a 98 ENY G4M1 or 91 ENY Spit I, than a 5 ENY P-51D or B-29.
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Those planes perked would leave the top free fighter spots to the P-47M, Spitfire Mk VIII, F4U-1D, P-38L, Bf109G-14, Yak-9U and Ki-84. The top bomb free bomber would be the B-26B, as it currently stands, but the B-25J, Tu-2, Do217 and/or Ju188A would all be fully competitive with the B-26B should they be added. P1Y1 wouldn't be useless either.
EDIT:
Caldera,
You have a strong point about timidity in the heavy bombers and fast fighters if perked. Perhaps a larger ENY scale would be the way to go. Perk prices would need to go up though, to adjust for the greater perk earning. Shoot down a 5 ENY P-51D with a 100 ENY Hurricane Mk I and you'd get 25 perks after landing successfully. A single, pretty common, kill.
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Yeah, a lot would have to change (and a whole new slew of whines would ensue - hey, that rhymes. almost like a haiku. that rhymes too. ;)) but I think some change is necessary. :aok
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Now why would you want to perk the D9? I'd rather have the ENY at8 then see her perked.
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In Main arena, only the 3-gun La-7 together with Tempests and F4u4, me262 me163 in fighter class, deserves perk and get release the spit14 from perk.
Many planes have weak spot vs other planes strengths : Example 38j is almost useless against correctly flown 190a-series since it compress at much lower speed. The 190a's nemesis are primary the La7, and secondary the p51d, p47m (all ENY-5)
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In Main arena, only the 3-gun La-7 together with Tempests and F4u4, me262 me163 in fighter class, deserves perk and get release the spit14 from perk.
Many planes have weak spot vs other planes strengths : Example 38j is almost useless against correctly flown 190a-series since it compress at much lower speed. The 190a's nemesis are primary the La7, and secondary the p51d, p47m (all ENY-5)
While in a Dora, I'd actually prefer to fight against an La7 than a P51D. I seem to have more trouble vs the P51D, not sure why. I'd actually prefer to fight any of the P47's over the P51D as well.
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While in a Dora, I'd actually prefer to fight against an La7 than a P51D. I seem to have more trouble vs the P51D, not sure why. I'd actually prefer to fight any of the P47's over the P51D as well.
That strikes me as really weird. My jug eats 51s for lunch when things get slow, P-47 harder and La7 is toughest. The planeset is rife with "rock, paper, scissors" matchups.
Takeaways I'm seeing from the thread thus far:
1. Some ENY values appear inconsistent
2. A weighed ENY rubric would be useful. (Different rubrics required for fighter/attack than bomber and gv obviously) I think the concept I put out there a couple pages back is sound, it's still a matter of properly weighing relative attributes. For instance, I made roll and turn co-equal at 100pts. (What good is pulling G's in a given plane if you can't get there?) Looking back, I'd probably throw 150 at turn and keep roll at 100. I do not know enough about GVs to even make a coherent attempt at a rubric for them.
3. An expanded ENY range could be useful and more representative of relative capes. (Also covered earlier)
4. Usage levels should be factored in as they can be as disruptive as basic unit capability.
I'm not in favor of changing ENY based on selected loadout-difficult and arbitrary. The aircraft's ENY should reflect what it CAN do. When looking at the 109G-2 for example I assessed its speed, climb, roll etc without gondolas, but firepower with. Even though you'll never see the ENY potential represented in combat, you still pay a premium for options left on the ground as with the Pony.
When it comes to buffs, you've got an interesting dilemma: They have a great deal of destructive potential which would drive their ENY lower but at the same time they are very vulnerable. It is not logical to predicate ENY on the assumption of escort. And yet they can be dangerous to destroy. A Ki-43 that downs a B17 deserves more credit than, say a 190A-8. In this case you could use the relative values from the fighter's "engagement" category (specifically firepower and toughness) and compare it to the buff's "engagement" values (toughness, firepower, gun arcs) to arrive at an especially equitable perk reward.
I don't have the time to build a buff rubric atm, but at first glance it doesn't seem to have the number of glaring issues the fighter roster does. A B-17 deserves an A-A rating of 35ENY in my book on present scale and an A-G of 10. Weighed for what it actually does, 15 seems pretty darn close.
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There's nothing wrong with the ENYs. :old:
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There's nothing wrong with the ENYs. :old:
ofcoarse there is! The K4's is obiously 2 high and undeserving of it. Gone are the days if easy perkfarming.
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ofcoarse there is! The K4's is obiously 2 high and undeserving of it. Gone are the days if easy perkfarming.
I still got my 109F for perk farming! :D And my G2, and my G6, and the Emil, and the 38G, and the 47D's, and the Yak's, and the 190A5. :devil
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I still got my 109F for perk farming! :D And my G2, and my G6, and the Emil, and the 38G, and the 47D's, and the Yak's, and the 190A5. :devil
not all of us are gods! :old:
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In Main arena, only the 3-gun La-7 together with Tempests and F4u4, me262 me163 in fighter class, deserves perk and get release the spit14 from perk.
Pfft
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LA7 does not need perk price :huh
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I still got my 109F for perk farming! :D And my G2, and my G6, and the Emil, and the 38G, and the 47D's, and the Yak's, and the 190A5. :devil
in that last one you are a freak of nature..... you will undoubtedly bring out many frustrations... and will be the cause of many puppy beatings....
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The problem with assigning perk values for the current planes is that people want to perk rides they don't like fighting against. On that note, rides I would like perked are the LA7, 190A8 and any plane Latrobe flies.
As for Letalis' system, in an attempt to iron out the kinks I think that "production" could be committed from the calculation since we get an unlimited number of our cartoon dream machines. I think you had a category for in game usage in the initial calculations, if not then the "production" category could be replaced with the amount of use the plane sees in the arenas.
As for the dynamic aspect, you talked about using the results from the current/previous tour to modify the ENY and perk value of planes. While I am all for this, I don't think using current tour or previous tour records is the way to go. It would most likely cause a yo-yo effect. Once the P-51 becomes perked, it's usage will drop off rapidly causing the ENY to rise again out of the perked area of the system and while this would most likely level itself off, it would take far too long and would cause all the dweebs to smash their keyboards. Instead a record from all of the tours could be referenced which would become more stable over time and in less time. In the event that a new plane is added, the system could be reset after that tour has finished and only that tour is used so that all planes will remain balanced no matter how long they have been in game.
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LA7 does not need perk price :huh
What else can fly as fast, climb as fast, accelerate as fast, turn as well, has 3 or more cannons, and can bust tanks with ordnance (don't discount wee little bombs on the La's, it is not as difficult as one may think)??? Tempest? Hmmm.
The La's Achilles Heel is range, it is no escort fighter. Otherwise, it is the best interceptor in the game (other than Tempest) and certainly one of the top 5 dogfighters.
So yeah, the La7 could in fact use a small perk price such as 2-3. Throw in the P51D and Spit16 as well. Those three fighters for sure could use a small perk prince. I've suggested the George may need a slight perk cost as well, but for me the jury is still out on that one. The 109K-4 is too 1 dimensional, it does NOT need a perk cost. No other planes dominate the game like the P51D, La7, and Spit16.
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What do you means the K4's to 1 dimensional. Only thing it can't do is drop ords.
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What else can fly as fast, climb as fast, accelerate as fast, turn as well, has 3 or more cannons, and can bust tanks with ordnance (don't discount wee little bombs on the La's, it is not as difficult as one may think)??? Tempest? Hmmm.
The La's Achilles Heel is range, it is no escort fighter. Otherwise, it is the best interceptor in the game (other than Tempest) and certainly one of the top 5 dogfighters.
So yeah, the La7 could in fact use a small perk price such as 2-3. Throw in the P51D and Spit16 as well. Those three fighters for sure could use a small perk prince. I've suggested the George may need a slight perk cost as well, but for me the jury is still out on that one. The 109K-4 is too 1 dimensional, it does NOT need a perk cost. No other planes dominate the game like the P51D, La7, and Spit16.
LA-7 deserves respect, but it is far from perk worthy. (11ENY in my book, about even with the D-Hog) Implementing the usage perk protocol could theoretically drive it to perkland, but that's quite a reach. Even with the ENY usage penalty, it still would only be down to 4 ENY at the moment. It's got a fraction of the range that the Pony does, laughable A-G/external options, vastly inferior at altitude, and its weapon has crappy ballistics compared to .50s. I can land 7-10 kills in a D Hog but have almost never managed more than 5 in an LA against maneuvering targets. Being able to spray high deflection shots with consistent success 600-800 out is a huge plus. As for being the second best interceptor in the game... :uhoh Does WEP usage have ANY effect on its performance above 9k? An F4U4 would be a better interceptor choice hands down, even if you don't take into account it can do all the above from a CV and/or haul a real load of ord.
The LA7 might be in the top 10 as a last ditch scramble fighter, but only below 10k. Above that, the D Pony, 38L and even the D-40 Jug will match or better you in climb. To recap: LA7 is crappy in the A-G, air superiority and escort roles. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svSGKJFSl-8)
NO PERK FOR YOU! :mad:
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Just make that bloody 3rd nosepointandshootubergun perked on the La-7, nothing is more effective than that .
rest of the la-7 is eny 1 .
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Couldn't help but notice the N1K missing from the conversation. I'm not one to bomb gv's unless they are a threat so...
However, I often find the N1K unavailable at an eny of 8. Eny of 8 is the next jump from P51's and La7's (5). I guess if ord is taken into account, maybe it's where it should be, otherwise I don't think it's in the near-class arena of the fastest birds nor turniest. Yes firepower is superb at less than D500, after that I can't hit anything.
Of course I'm far from a decent AH pilot and maybe I can't exploit the N1k's advantages that make it an eny 8, but I find it frustrating not to have it available vs. the horde (often.)
What are the arguments for its' eny 8 value?
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I would say, start with questioning the entire point of ENY which seems to be side balancing. What rides, if affected by ENY, would result in the lower ENY side, unable to fight as effectively. Such as... Lancs and 17s go away. No more single run town killers. These conversations get wrapped around fighters, but they are only part of the equation. This discussion should include the GVs and bombers as well.
I would recommend revisiting the entire point of the system. If the intent is to encourage side balancing by limiting favorable rides, then the approach must be holistic.
If you really want evenly distributed sides, have a harsher ENY ratio. Make each disparity of +10 felt by the side with greater numbers....
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LA-7 deserves respect, but it is far from perk worthy. (11ENY in my book, about even with the D-Hog) Implementing the usage perk protocol could theoretically drive it to perkland, but that's quite a reach. Even with the ENY usage penalty, it still would only be down to 4 ENY at the moment. It's got a fraction of the range that the Pony does, laughable A-G/external options, vastly inferior at altitude, and its weapon has crappy ballistics compared to .50s. I can land 7-10 kills in a D Hog but have almost never managed more than 5 in an LA against maneuvering targets. Being able to spray high deflection shots with consistent success 600-800 out is a huge plus. As for being the second best interceptor in the game... :uhoh Does WEP usage have ANY effect on its performance above 9k? An F4U4 would be a better interceptor choice hands down, even if you don't take into account it can do all the above from a CV and/or haul a real load of ord.
The LA7 might be in the top 10 as a last ditch scramble fighter, but only below 10k. Above that, the D Pony, 38L and even the D-40 Jug will match or better you in climb. To recap: LA7 is crappy in the A-G, air superiority and escort roles. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svSGKJFSl-8)
NO PERK FOR YOU! :mad:
Have you looked at the raw data of what the La7 can do above 10k? Are you aware that the best altitude for speed in a La7 is 20k? The La7 can dance just as well at 20k as it does at 10k. This whole "at altitude" argument is bunk anyways because just how ofter do fighters and bombers "at altitude" (whatever that means???) actually mean anything? In AH, the hordes of P51D's and P38L's at no higher than 8-10k are what matter. Typical engagement altitudes are what matter. Typical engagement altitudes are below 20k, and more like below 15k.
"Consistent deflection shots 600-800 with .50's"??? What have you been smoking or drinking? I want some. Matter of fact share some with everyone.
You comparing the F4U-4 to the La7's interception ability only helps prove my point: Compare their actual speed and climb stats and report back. Oh, please mention ENY values and perks costs while you're at it. Do the same with the Tempest, too. As far as the La7's lack of ability to move dirt, I mentioned that. However, do not discount the triple 20mm's for destroying OBJ (or ripping apart aircraft or light skinned gv's), and certainly do not discount its dual 100kg (220 lbs) bombs, I've destroyed more than my fair share of tanks and OBJ with them. It has been awhile though, I frown upon easy mode planes. The only real Achilles Heel the La's have is range. If the throttle is managed a player can realistically push 35 mins, otherwise good luck in getting more than the typical 22 mins.
If HTC's criteria involves giving the Spit 14 a perk price, then one has to wonder why not the La7? Spit 16? P51D?
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I hate getting caught by an la in a 190 :furious
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Post was meant to be funny, no need to get testy Loon. The best way to win an argument isn't by getting angry, it's to start out on the correct side.
Yes, I've looked at quite a bit of data. 20k+ is a typical best speed regime for ALL planes. That doesn't seem to help your argument. http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php Yes, the LA7 is a handful low and yes, most combat takes place low. BUT, again, it isn't an A-G threat on par with LW U.S. birds, and it's gun package vastly inferior to the Jug. Consider that the P-47 8x267 package carries 2136 bullets. The LA-7 3x20mm packs 450 shells.
In total destructive potential the Jug's LIGHT gun package gives you 22 seconds of firing time at 80dps at an effective range of 800yds. The LA-7 gives you 13 seconds at 80dps at half the effective range without half the deflection shot potential. I'm guessing you need to fly more U.S. birds mate.
Consider the total bullets a Jug carries vice the LA-7 once again. Consider that the average Jug shot happens at 400 vice 250-300 (generous) for the LA-7. Now compare relative hit percentages for a competent Jug pilot (Letalis) vs an outstanding LA7 pilot (Diddler).
http://www.hitechcreations.com/component/option,com_ahscore/Itemid,223/view,pilotranks/index.php
That's a hit rate decrease of just 3% despite longer ranges and an additional 1600 bullets flying around. Something else is clearly at work.
The Jug is a superior shooter's platform hands down, even the 6x.50 U.S. planes have substantial edges. If a one second burst at 60dps does the trick on a spit, how much are you gaining with a 1 second burst at 80dps? Law of decreasing returns bruh.
My previous point is that the -U4 is a better overall plane, same for the P-51D. But, since we were talking "interceptor" for comparison. The LA-7 will go from brake release to 10k in 2:35 provided it has NO ammo and ONLY 1/4 gas. The F4U4 with full ammo and full internal fuel will do the same in 3:05. For the sake of that 30 seconds, which bird would you rather be flying above 10k now? Regardless, you can't ignore all else and go :x for a perk price simply because something is a good interceptor. I'm annoyed by L-Gays too, but there are too many other factors here.
(Side note: I see the N1K clocking in at 670pts or 12ENY- 8 ENY is a touch low imho for an awesome plane that simply lacks a little top end speed)
And by the way Loon...NO PERK FOR YOU! ;)
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Adjust the 47M/152/K4 disparity, leave the Spixteen, 51D, and La7 unperked, but make the ENY kick in faster. This is my solemn wish. I honestly don't care about the Spit14. Perk it or unperk it... I'll probably still fly it only about once every two tours.
You could make an argument for small perk prices for the 16/51/La7 and that would work, provided the number was small enough that new players could still have access to them. I'm convinced the real reason that trio of planes is unperked is to give newer players a punchers chance at surviving and killing in the MA.
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The copyright on the gonzoville chart says 2006 and I have issues with some of the testing criteria, most notably the way lethality is calculated. It's a dated source. Beware when citing.
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I'm convinced the real reason that trio of planes is unperked is to give newer players a punchers chance at surviving and killing in the MA.
Agree on this point, definite possibility.
The copyright on the gonzoville chart says 2006 and I have issues with some of the testing criteria, most notably the way lethality is calculated. It's a dated source. Beware when citing.
Can you be more specific? Do you actually disagree?
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ENY is difficult to quantify. If you're basing ENY on what an aircraft CAN do, it must be quantifiable and performance placed relative to the rest of the entire planeset, to include every submodel in the game. Not just that, performance factors have to be weighed relative to the environment to a degree since not every plane model is represented uniformly in the MA.
I break performance down into 4 general categories, each with its own constituent factors: Vector, Maneuver, Engagement & Intangibles. Each category's constituent factors have a weight. Weight is subjective but here's my stab...
Vector:
Top Speed (200), Acceleration (50), Dive Characteristics (40), Climb (60) = 350pts
Maneuver:
Turn (includes instant, sustained, flap deploy speed and flap effectiveness (100), Roll (100) = 200pts
Engagement:
Toughness (includes not only damage tolerance but system redundancy and resilience. The F4U-1A would trump the -1D because it has multiple fuel tanks) (50), Firepower (magnitude x duration x range x ballistics factor) (100), Disposables (drop tanks, bombs, rockets) (100) = 250pts
Intangibles:
Methodology is solid. Scores and weighting might need tweeking, only becasue the Spit16 at 16 ENY seems a little high. But a good idea, well presented. :salute
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Have you looked at the raw data of what the La7 can do above 10k? Are you aware that the best altitude for speed in a La7 is 20k? The La7 can dance just as well at 20k as it does at 10k. This whole "at altitude" argument is bunk anyways because just how ofter do fighters and bombers "at altitude" (whatever that means???) actually mean anything? In AH, the hordes of P51D's and P38L's at no higher than 8-10k are what matter. Typical engagement altitudes are what matter. Typical engagement altitudes are below 20k, and more like below 15k.
"Consistent deflection shots 600-800 with .50's"??? What have you been smoking or drinking? I want some. Matter of fact share some with everyone.
You comparing the F4U-4 to the La7's interception ability only helps prove my point: Compare their actual speed and climb stats and report back. Oh, please mention ENY values and perks costs while you're at it. Do the same with the Tempest, too. As far as the La7's lack of ability to move dirt, I mentioned that. However, do not discount the triple 20mm's for destroying OBJ (or ripping apart aircraft or light skinned gv's), and certainly do not discount its dual 100kg (220 lbs) bombs, I've destroyed more than my fair share of tanks and OBJ with them. It has been awhile though, I frown upon easy mode planes. The only real Achilles Heel the La's have is range. If the throttle is managed a player can realistically push 35 mins, otherwise good luck in getting more than the typical 22 mins.
If HTC's criteria involves giving the Spit 14 a perk price, then one has to wonder why not the La7? Spit 16? P51D?
La7 sustained turning is nothing to poo poo either. This aint your AH1 La7.
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La7 sustained turning is nothing to poo poo either. This aint your AH1 La7.
True, but how effective are its flaps compared to U.S. birds? If you're in a light Jug, the LA has to work for it. I'd also say that if any weighing needs tweaking it is the turn subcat. (D9 too high and Spits too low)
Looked at bombers a little bit, haven't gotten many data points built, but an interesting idea occurred to me that might mix things up.
For reference, a single B-29 can carry 40x500# bombs and costs 100 ENY. I don't think I've seen any complaints on this perk value. Let's say the B-25C ends up at 20 ENY. A formation of 3 carries 18x500# bombs. What if players could spend perks for additional aircraft in their formation? Formula used would be: (1/ENY)(100)(1.6xN) where N is the number of aircraft over 3 in a formation. A 4th aircraft would cost 8 perks, the 5th an additional 13, a sixth 21 more. A six aircraft formation of B-25Cs would cost 42 perks and carry 36x500# weapons. Overpowered? Even if the player were able to control formation parameters, all formation aircraft would still have to drop at the same time resulting in a much less concentrated area of effect, impractical for point targets but much more useful for area targets. Also, the total perks used would be evenly distributed amongst formation aircraft, (42/6) so 7 perks lost per aircraft lost during the sortie.
Somewhat off topic but couldn't resist...
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True, but how effective are its flaps compared to U.S. birds? If you're in a light Jug, the LA has to work for it. I'd also say that if any weighing needs tweaking it is the turn subcat. (D9 too high and Spits too low)
Looked at bombers a little bit, haven't gotten many data points built, but an interesting idea occurred to me that might mix things up.
For reference, a single B-29 can carry 40x500# bombs and costs 100 ENY. I don't think I've seen any complaints on this perk value. Let's say the B-25C ends up at 20 ENY. A formation of 3 carries 18x500# bombs. What if players could spend perks for additional aircraft in their formation? Formula used would be: (1/ENY)(100)(1.6xN) where N is the number of aircraft over 3 in a formation. A 4th aircraft would cost 8 perks, the 5th an additional 13, a sixth 21 more. A six aircraft formation of B-25Cs would cost 42 perks and carry 36x500# weapons. Overpowered? Even if the player were able to control formation parameters, all formation aircraft would still have to drop at the same time resulting in a much less concentrated area of effect, impractical for point targets but much more useful for area targets. Also, the total perks used would be evenly distributed amongst formation aircraft, (42/6) so 7 perks lost per aircraft lost during the sortie.
Somewhat off topic but couldn't resist...
La7 vs a P47x. Lets see.... Speed? Climb? Turn? Accelerate? Roll? Firepower? Dive... ah yes, there we go. The dive is where the P47x can defeat the La7, otherwise the La7 will eat a P47 alive in a dogfight at altitudes below 25k. The P47 has the advantage of range, high speed maneuvering at high altitudes, the ability to carry "meaningful" ordnance, and it can dive better. All in all, my money is on the La7 in a dogfight.
The B29 is the epitome of bombers in AH. First, it can carry 20,000 lbs or ordnance. Second: it is fast. Not just for a bomber, but in general it is just damn fast. Even if a fighter is able to reach speeds of 250mph or more, it hardly has the advantage thanks to the B29's ability to hurl massive amounts of lead in defense. The B29 can bring an enemy industrial complex to its knees in 4 passes. In 2 passes it can take the ammo factory down to less than %40 when it drops the 4/4000 lb bombs. When armed with the 40/500 lb bombs, the B29 can lay waste to enemy strats. The B29 is perked just right and has an ENY value just right.
Using the B29 and Boston III's as our basis of max/min, the Lancaster, B24, and B27 could all use a slight perk. The ENY values are not far out of line, really. At least imo. The biggest :headscratch: in the bomber category is the Ju88, it earns FEWER points while bombing than a B17. Me thinks HTC used its total weight of ordnance to assign OBJ values (Ju88 = 6600 lbs ords, B17 = 6000 lbs), but the Ju88's useful ordnance is 4400 lbs. Also, the Ju88 is quite a bit slower and far less able to defend itself than the B17. All in all, I think the scales of ENY and OBJ have too many gaps in them. Just my opinion.
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La7-3*20mm vs 190a8 : La-7 outclasses the A8 in all flight parameters except by a few % better roll in 190a8. Even HO's are to LA favour if you want to get really dirty, since the mg151 cannon have mediocre range compared.
What the 190a8 can hope for is an inexperienced La-7 driver, otherwise LA-driver cannot simply lose against the A8.
The La7-2 20mm guns at least give a small chance of surviving the short-range shooting at the deck rolling around at tree-level.
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Even HO's are to LA favour if you want to get really dirty, since the mg151 cannon have mediocre range compared.
Both guns are in the same class, firing similar weighed bullets at similar speeds - 92g at 800m/s for the MG 151/20, 95g at 790m/s for the B-20. That makes them very close in ballistic performance
You can group the 20mm guns in game in 3 classes:
I. Hispano
II Mg 151/20 / Shvak, B-20, Ho-5
III MG FF / Type 99
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These are the values I have for the mg151
AP ammo; 720 m/sec
HEI ammo: 750 m/sec
Minengeschoss ammo: 755 m/sec
Minengeschoss XM ammo: 705 m/sec
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http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm
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Hispano for example fires faster than the factory specs and Mauser slower than the specs in AH.
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Both guns are in the same class, firing similar weighed bullets at similar speeds - 92g at 800m/s for the MG 151/20, 95g at 790m/s for the B-20. That makes them very close in ballistic performance
You can group the 20mm guns in game in 3 classes:
I. Hispano, Flakvierling 38
II Mg 151/20 / Shvak, B-20, Ho-5, Type 99 Model II
III MG FF / Type 99
Added guns.
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Flak 38?
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Flak 38?
Gun used by the Wirbelwind.
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I realized what it was as I typed it. :bhead
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Can you be more specific? Do you actually disagree?
I think since 2006 flight models have been slightly altered for a few planes. Not sure because I started in 2010, but I bet someone else here knows. Also, some planes are missing and therefore unavailible for comparison on his site.
My main gripe is with the way lethality is calculated in that it completely ignores convergence. In this regard I completely disagree with some of the results and comparisons generated.
And that's all I'll say about that. I'm not here to bash gonzoville. It has its uses. I'm just saying to tread carefully when citing to gonzoville as authority.
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@Loon: My money would be on the LA in a dogfight as well given equal pilots, the point :bhead made is that there is more to the game than dogfighting.
Agree the 88 is a bit of a headscratcher. It does have some interesting things going for it though that might partially explain things. #1 It is capable not only of level bombing, but dive-bombing as well, which is very cool and can give you more options and accuracy in a pinch. #2 It is torpedo capable. It makes sense that you'd pay a slight premium on options a given unit type has. #3 (And a distant 3rd at that) Fixed forward armament. You can actually theoretically dogfight from the pilot's seat in this bomber. Granted, I'd rather a TBM to an 88 any day, but it is a possibility.
@Save: Similar to point above: comparing the LA7 to another of the worst dogfighters in the game shouldn't be the criteria for getting something perked.
A distinction can be drawn between fighters and true dogfighters. I think we can agree the LA7 is more in the dogfighter camp. The fact is that most fights do not occur in an empty sector. In a many v many, factors like sustained turn lose importance relative to snapshot firepower and firepower duration. Aircraft that can blow away the enemy in the brief moment they end up in front of the nose are better off than aircraft that generally need to "latch" in order to get kills. (I put the Yak-9U in this category, Spits to lesser degree) Latching gobbles up SA and usually slows you down. I wouldn't expect the 190A8's MA k/d to fall below the LA7's any time soon.
@Messiah: Gonzoville is still pertinent as support to the degree it is accurate. Climb, speed, acceleration values are easily verified. If a given value didn't still stack up in game, I wouldn't cite it, just trying to save ppl time. Turn verification is a little harder but doable. Note that the climb times I cited were from my own testing tables (I'm slowly building an excel doc with performance values). Your point on lethality is valid when it comes to fighter-sized targets. For my testing purposes, I use hitting power at convergence. Yes, the hitting power of wing-based armament will be somewhat over-represented, but it is more practical than building, and averaging and/or weighing lethality tables for every 50-100yds of distance for the amount of performance differentiation achieved.
BTW (I actually docked the Corsairs when I was running numbers for my ENY idea due to convergence -gave 60pts vs 65 for Hellcat, should have done same for N jug but forgot...)
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(Side note: I see the N1K clocking in at 670pts or 12ENY- 8 ENY is a touch low imho for an awesome plane that simply lacks a little top end speed)
Thanks for the input, affirms my position that the eny of 8 in the N1K is too high, since everyone is always running away from them, maybe with a mg package 8 could make sense...
:salute
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It was just my opinion...
To answer the question of why ppl might say it should be 8ENY, there are 5 primary reasons.
1. 4x20mm cannons
2. A :ahand -ton of ammo per cannon
3. 2Cmex :joystick:
4. 2Cmex :joystick:
5. 2Cmex :joystick:
:old:
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Yes, I've looked at quite a bit of data. 20k+ is a typical best speed regime for ALL planes. That doesn't seem to help your argument. http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php Yes, the LA7 is a handful low and yes, most combat takes place low. BUT, again, it isn't an A-G threat on par with LW U.S. birds, and it's gun package vastly inferior to the Jug. Consider that the P-47 8x267 package carries 2136 bullets. The LA-7 3x20mm packs 450 shells.
I'd take 3 nose mounted cannons over 8*0.5 in the wings any day. Also, La7 does not need spraying at range because it can close in on everything. In the Jug you are judo-fighting the planes that are buzzing around you and try to throw some 0.5s at them as they flyaway.
The La7 high altitude disadvantage is a myth. At 20k it is still a very formidable opponent. I think the real plane did not even had an oxygen bottle, so the pilots used to take a deep breath at 10k and hold it in while they zoomed to 20k to fight. :p
The La7 short range is also a myth. No it is not an escort fighter, but it can reach any fight in the MA with enough time to loiter. One day players will realize that traveling to/from combat at full throttle and 370 mph on the deck does not get them far. Next, they will discover the RPM control and that the throttle has more than 2 settings and start to travel at "only" 300-320 mph thus significantly enhancing their range.
There is already a precedence for perking a plane due to its alternative gun package - the F4U-C. The Chog was added as a separate model to the Dhog and thus could be perked. The (rare!) 3-gun La7 is just a loadout option instead of a different entry in the hangar and thus is not perked.
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You've obviously been around a while-inactive much of the time, but a long run. You also have an excellent k/d vs the LA7 while flying "heavy" aircraft (U.S., Mossie). It is surprising you would take the time to argue for perking the 7 when it presents less of a threat to you than the Pony... Is it that Pony drivers are so much better or is it rather more complicated than that? If you're going to argue for the LA7 to be perked with only a comparable k/d ratio, despite a fraction of the use the Pony sees and despite a fraction of the range and A-G utility on top of that...then ooook.
One other thing: in all your many kills I failed to find even ONE made with an LA7 OR LA5. Perhaps I missed a tour. It is a very good thing to know your enemy. I've flown both a good bit offline and forced myself to make few kills with each in the context of the MA. I found the ACM qualities outstanding, but the kill capability/expedience disappointing. I recommend you log at least 10-20 kills with the LAs and check back into this thread.
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You've obviously been around a while-inactive much of the time, but a long run. You also have an excellent k/d vs the LA7 while flying "heavy" aircraft (U.S., Mossie). It is surprising you would take the time to argue for perking the 7 when it presents less of a threat to you than the Pony...
<snip>
One other thing: in all your many kills I failed to find even ONE made with an LA7 OR LA5. Perhaps I missed a tour.
<snip>
Since end of 2001 I've been away from the game a total of about 4 years, a few tours were under a different handle - all of this info is completely irrelevant. My own K/D against the La7 is also irrelevant. I am thinking in the context of the discussion and in the general benefit of the community and the game, not myself. The La7 deserves a perk tag for the same reason the F4UC and Tempest do, but the value should be minimal.
My first kill of a fighter versus fighter in the game was in an La7 (of a P38). I flew it in my first tours, then in scenarios, FSO and other events and flew La5 in the AvA arena when people were still in there. After that many years in the game and fighting against an abundant population of La7 piloted by all skill levels I pretty much know what it is capable of. Whether it should be perked or not does no depend on me mastering some quirk of its flight model.
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I've done my part in trying to get the lala perked.
:noid :bolt:
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Perk the A5!!!! :banana:
:bolt:
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I've done my part in trying to get the lala perked.
:noid :bolt:
Pffft
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For my testing purposes, I use hitting power at convergence. Yes, the hitting power of wing-based armament will be somewhat over-represented,
I would remove the adjective "somewhat" or change it to "plainly."
but it is more practical than building, and averaging and/or weighing lethality tables for every 50-100yds of distance for the amount of performance differentiation achieved.
This is a huge intentional oversight for the sake of practicality. Averages are the name of the game here [trying to apply a fair ENY measuring stick across all planes for all players]. But it's your ENY chart so if you want to cut corners, then by all means.
Also, does your personal ENY rubric consider survivability? I'm not talking about how much damage a plane can take, I'm talking about its ability to exit a fight at will. Notice how most of the perk rides are really fast.
I'd take 3 nose mounted cannons over 8*0.5 in the wings any day.
Troof
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@Save: Similar to point above: comparing the LA7 to another of the worst dog-fighters in the game shouldn't be the criteria for getting something perked.
A distinction can be drawn between fighters and true dog fighters. I think we can agree the LA7 is more in the dogfighter camp. The fact is that most fights do not occur in an empty sector. In a many v many, factors like sustained turn lose importance relative to snapshot firepower and firepower duration. Aircraft that can blow away the enemy in the brief moment they end up in front of the nose are better off than aircraft that generally need to "latch" in order to get kills. (I put the Yak-9U in this category, Spits to lesser degree) Latching gobbles up SA and usually slows you down. I wouldn't expect the 190A8's MA k/d to fall below the LA7's any time soon.
re
I'm not advocating for a perk on the 2 gun version of the La-7, but only the 3-gun version. They where rare Real Life, yet I have not seen any 2-gunned LA-7 in AH.
The one and only reason la-7 is getting low k/d is the average pilot preferring them.
The plane should have its eny/perk for the planes capabilities, not the pilot flying it.
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Pffft
I'll see your pfft and raise you a harumph.
Kills In Kills Of Killed By Died In K/D
La-7 12,674 2,095 986 4,223 3.00
:old: :neener:
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@Bozon: Nice. At least you know what you're talking about then. Few things are more annoying than someone who wants to change the game simply because he has no clue what is going on in the other guy's shoes.
@Bozon/Save: Agree perk prices should be based on what a plane can do, however are we sure what we're getting into when specific load options are perked? The next thing that happens is that the jug gets a different eny with the 6 gun package than the 8 gun. The Pony starts costing perks with 1k bombs, an extra perk for rockets...etc etc. More fair? Sure, if done right- but you are introducing both workload and complexity that could cause secondary breakdowns in fairness when you could have just held the line at what is available to you when you selected the plane in the hangar. All or nothing. If the LA could carry even a single 500lb class bomb with its current fuel limitation, I'd be right there with you guys, it's just too limited. It is noteworthy that more experienced players generally move on to other aircraft. Two big reasons: 1. They want more variety than the LA can offer. 2. The community starts throwing out "sausage" and "L-Gay" references in order to keep the pros out. Impossible to measure how well this self-regulation works, but many in the community keep the good stuff reserved for noobs. That consideration, apart from the pure performance factors might be enough enough to keep the LA out of the 1-2 perk cost range.
@Messiah: If you can figure out a way to generate such data to your satisfaction and the time to do it in, you've done the community a service and fully deserve your "holier than thou" je ne sais quoi. :angel: The fact is we are surrounded by a world of practical shortcuts. Consider this next time you pull up to an intersection with mere metal signs painted red instead of a set of stoplights. Also, if you look at the rubric, yes, survivability is both explicit (toughness subcat) and implicit. Factors like view, turn, roll, climb and speed play into both an aircraft's offensive and defensive capability. And yes, I had noticed perk rides are fast :noid
@Shane: Pfft...Hey look! A sausage!
(http://www.havengastropub.com/images/BLOG_images/sausage440.jpg)
P-38L: 1019-306=3.33
F6F-5: 2036/459=4.43
P-47D-25: 2294/497=4.97
...And I may end up raising you a guffaw... :D
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(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/15325517.jpg)
No really, that JUST happened... :O
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Most fair would be to have one fighter ENY and one for attack.
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Most fair would be to have one fighter ENY and one for attack.
If it is something like:
P-51D ATK 5
P-51D ENY 7
Sure. But if it is:
P-51D ATK 5
P-51D ENY 20
then imbalances would need to cause much steeper limitations or you may as well dump the whole ENY idea.
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@Save: See where you're coming from, but I'm not in favor, and not just on grounds of needless complexity. This idea would work better with the "bomber/attack" aircraft like the 110,410 and A20. Unless the loading of A-G ord were to automatically switch you to attack mode, it'll probably be gamed by many for "fighter/attack" units. Even then HT wouldn't have fixed the problem you asked him to create.
Example: Let's say I want to fly a Spit 16. Suppose its ENY is 10 as a fighter and 25 as an attacker. Now suppose the ENY limiter is sitting at 12. Well, I'll just load a 500 pound bomb on my 25 ENY "attacker" and drop it at the departure end of the runway if I don't need it. If players are willing to fly B-26s directly over CV groups at 1k feet and use Lancs as dive bombers, you can bet this will happen.
Even if nobody "games" it, as Karnak mentioned, it screws the whole idea of ENY if it is to have any significance.
Aircraft should be assigned a single value based on their maximum capability.
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I was assuming the ATK rating would always have to be lower than the ENY rating, or it immediately broke in too obvious a way for me to see it as a real suggestion.
I simply think that high performance aircraft like the P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI, La-7 and N1K2-J need to be restricted from the hordes regardless of what they have, or don't have, strapped under the airplane.
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Wouldn't it be more logical/realistic to make ENY more of a fluid number? One thing I've never fully liked is that a country could up 50 Lancasters and 50 P51-Ds as escorts with only 100 country members online. Does this happen, no, but I'm sure it's been tried a few times. If I were to make a suggestion I'd say make plane ENY fluid just like country ENY works. Base the numbers off a mathematical formula where it references how many of those planes are in use by the country at that time ** as well as ** the planes abilities. This brings in the real world aspect of supply into the game. Nothing is to stop the entire AH community from all flying the same plane, even if it is under the county ENY cap.
The ENY restrictions and perk bonus would work right into this way of doing things. As plane ENY sinks due to heavy usage it will approach the country ENY and when it hits the limit that plane is no longer flyable.
This does pose a bit of a programming problem as the base ENY of 0 wouldn't be easily achievable under most formulas due to the likelihood of a more logarithmic formula, but that too could be addressed with a small change. (I know neither here nor there, but I felt it a necessary disclaimer)
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This does pose a bit of a programming problem as the base ENY of 0 wouldn't be easily achievable under most formulas due to the likelihood of a more logarithmic formula, but that too could be addressed with a small change. (I know neither here nor there, but I felt it a necessary disclaimer)
ENY are (more or less) and should be spaced on a logarithmic scale because what matter are ratios and not differences. A plane with ENY 5 vs. a plane with ENY 6 is like ENY 30 vs. ENY 36. Going below ENY 4-5 in a popular plane will result in large overall perk gains to the rest of the players. No matter how good the plane is, it can get vulched by an SBD just as well. If something really needs its ENY lowered below 4 it should be perked instead.
If we follow the La7 suggestion of a very light perk (nevermind for the moment if just the 3-guns option or entirely), then ENY of 5 combined with a perk cost of 1 means that killing ANYTHING of the popular ENY 5 rides and then dieing (0.8 perks gain factor?) almost covered the perk cost. That's before country modifiers. Picking on planes with ENY>10 is less lucrative because more than two of them are required to cover the cost (only if you die! perk planes are free for survivors). So flying La7s should be easily sustainable to a K/D=1 player and to players of lower K/D provided they fly for the less populated country to enjoy the >1 perk modifier. Worst case, If a player cannot afford 1 perk point, there is the very capable and very similar La5 ready to farm a few perks with. Other model lines have their own free, higher ENY earlier models to replace the perked ride for plane-dedicated players. I dont mind if the P-47M and TA152 for example get the same 1 perk treatment
But "AHH!" you may say, this puts new players at a disadvantage because they will not be able to sustain the cost of La7s. Well, at the same time they will be facing less La7s (and similar over the top fighters). The Perks tag, even of 1 is a psychological barrier and players who do not care for the La7 for historical or patriotic reasons will fly a free plane most of the time even of they have 3000 perks points piled up.
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bozon,
Kill an ENY 5 ride with another ENY 5 ride, then die, with even side numbers results in 1 perk point. If you landed it, you'd get 1.25 perk points in that situation.
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oR kill 4 ponies in a K4 you get...5 :banana:
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ENY are (more or less) and should be spaced on a logarithmic scale because what matter are ratios and not differences.
:aok
Wouldn't it be more logical/realistic to make ENY more of a fluid number? The ENY restrictions and perk bonus would work right into this way of doing things.
:aokI was assuming the ATK rating would always have to be lower than the ENY rating, or it immediately broke in too obvious a way for me to see it as a real suggestion.
:uhoh :cry
Yes, some of the high performers may need to be a little more regulated... but perhaps not as much as at first glance. Consider that the Late War arena probably has some 30% of kills made by aircraft of 20ENY or higher. The takeaway is that many people choose to fly other than late war aircraft in the LW arena, creating a little more dichotomy than might otherwise have been the case. On the other hand, early war fighters like the D.520 :rock and Ki-43 saw action through to the end of the war... :headscratch:
IMHO, it would be unfortunate to have the P-51 carry a default perk cost. It was a very common front line fighter and obviously iconic. It should theoretically be available to newbies from sortie#1. That said, ~ 5% of ALL MA kills coming at the hands of the P-51D (that's 5% of ALL kills, not just A-A kills) is a little ridiculous.
Been thinking: There is a problem with getting TOO lucrative regarding ENY if we have an enlarged scale as Bozon alluded to. Instead of taking 20ENY as the initial middle ground, let's make it 30 instead. The P-51D would then start at 14 ENY instead of 4. As it becomes overused, ENY drops, but never drops below 10- 10 being the minimum possible number used when determining perks gained for kills. In this way you avoid the possibility of a 2 ENY Pony providing an overly excessive 30 perks upon death to a 60 ENY P-39D, instead, with the shift, the max would be 70/10, or a mere 7 perks, keeping everything consistent with current accrual rates.
While displayed ENY never drops below 10, the logarithmic usage penalty formula continues to work in the background. When the 51D reaches a formula-derived 9.4 ENY, it will display as a 10ENY aircraft costing 1 perk. (Rounds up from .6 deficit)
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It would be fine to have a 5 to 100 ENY scale if the perk prices were adjusted to reflect the increased earning potential of things like the Bf109F-4. In fact, combined it might be even more effective at diversifying the MA. It would take a long, long time, even compared to the current settings, to earn a Tempest or Me262 if you just fly P-51Ds, but use the P-51B or P-40N and you get a lot more jet sorties.
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Please allow me at this point to introduce some personal pessimism to this thread :old:
By looking at the numbers online in the past few weeks, I wonder if there are possibly some more important things to do for HTC than spending a lot of time & energy on working out a complicated and detailed ENY mechanism as variously proposed in this thread. :headscratch:
And by the way, we only have a fraction of the air combat we once used to have... maybe it's time we discuss tank ENY's instead pondering whether the K4 is ENY 20 or ENY 15... ;)
You may now carry on with the regular scheduled program :bolt:
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Good point Karnak, maybe even a better way of going about things. My intent in keeping parity for accrual rates was to avoid the inevitable outcry that would occur with swinging one way or the other.
As far as the expression of pessimism over this thread, and recent numbers...justified. AH belongs in the "endangered genre" category and "Aces Low" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
Bad sign spending more time on BBS than in the game...sometimes I just can't help but care. :angel:
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Lusche,
I have pondered tank ENYs and perk states too, but there are fundamental differences between tanks and planes. A D3A1 will still punch nice little holes into an Me262 if the Me262 messes up, but a Tiger II could probably ignore a Type 97 Chi-Ha forever. This makes tank combat effectiveness far more of a "yes/no" situation than the airplane's "if I am better/if I am lots better" situation and makes ENY and perk values hard to set. I do see that a very few tanks dominate the kills/deaths. M4A3(76), Panther V G, Panzer IV F, Panzer IV H and T-34/85 completely dominate. Particularly the Panzer IV H and T-34/85.
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Lusche,
I have pondered tank ENYs and perk states too, but there are fundamental differences between tanks and planes. A D3A1 will still punch nice little holes into an Me262 if the Me262 messes up, but a Tiger II could probably ignore a Type 97 Chi-Ha forever. This makes tank combat effectiveness far more of a "yes/no" situation than the airplane's "if I am better/if I am lots better" situation and makes ENY and perk values hard to set. I do see that a very few tanks dominate the kills/deaths. M4A3(76), Panther V G, Panzer IV F, Panzer IV H and T-34/85 completely dominate. Particularly the Panzer IV H and T-34/85.
I think you took that part of my remark a little bit too literally :)
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I missed that interpretation because it was too obvious :D
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Please allow me at this point to introduce some personal pessimism to this thread :old:
By looking at the numbers online in the past few weeks, I wonder if there are possibly some more important things to do for HTC than spending a lot of time & energy on working out a complicated and detailed ENY mechanism as variously proposed in this thread. :headscratch:
And by the way, we only have a fraction of the air combat we once used to have... maybe it's time we discuss tank ENY's instead pondering whether the K4 is ENY 20 or ENY 15... ;)
I totally agree.
While this discussion is going I occasionally drop my 0.02$, but in no way do I think that this is top priority for HTC, nor do I as a customer wish HTC to put this at the top of their to-do list.
btw Lusche, what were you referring to with the numbers comment? a drop in numbers? some of that is expected when the summer season approaches, or did you refer to the GV vs. planes usage %?
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btw Lusche, what were you referring to with the numbers comment? a drop in numbers? some of that is expected when the summer season approaches, or did you refer to the GV vs. planes usage %?
The main thing I was referring to was the number of players online, how many people there are in the arena. They have been slowly dropping for years now, but currently the numbers on the login screen are so low I have never seen before. Which might not be a 'problem' for a player at US prime time yet (I'm strictly talking about player experience, not any business stuff). Still enough around to get regular gameplay & battles going.
But I do run more and more into situations at which it's not "worth playing" (a very personal & subjective assessment!) at my times anymore. Some days ago I had a definite MidWar experience in Late War: I logged on and there were only 9(!) players on my side. Nine players all over the large map of Compello. Less than 50 total.
A few years ago we didn't have less than 100 when I logged in at Euro noon time. Even in my evenings the low numbers have an effect on gameplay opportunities. When I log on at 4am I can 'still have fun the old way'. Much less players than back in the day, but still enough to get things going and create some battles.
And it's worrying me, as I don't see this trend stopping in any way, especially with more and more competition around.
The second thing is indeed the shift in AH gameplay. I can give you an example: The amount of combat action, measured in kills.
You don't need to do any complex data mining or monitoring of any 'numbers online'. Just go the "plane stats" page, and call up any tour. It will instrantly give you the number of kills being made and thus the volume of 'combat'
Just take the last tour, 159 (April 2013) and compare it to the same tour 5 years before (Tour 99, April 2008): 336K to 697K kills total.
The interesting thing is: The number of Ground-to-Ground kills (mostly tank combat) went down by 30%. while number of Air-to-Air kills went down by 57%...
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I agree that is a much larger issue. That said, I've never bought into the "We should only talk about the most significant issue" line of reasoning.
That subject is also much closer to HTC's core business and I don't see players as being as able to make informed suggestions to improve the situation.
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Just take the last tour, 159 (April 2013) and compare it to the same tour 5 years before (Tour 99, April 2008): 336K to 697K kills total.
The interesting thing is: The number of Ground-to-Ground kills (mostly tank combat) went down by 30%. while number of Air-to-Air kills went down by 57%...
Some of the player drop was "masked" to a degree by consolidating to a single LW arena.
People nowadays can (and probably will) go through a half-dozen "free to play" MMO fantasy genres without paying a dime before finding something that holds their attention.
Possible explanation for why GV combat volume has taken less of a hit: Learning curve and SA requirements. People that don't have the patience to learn ACM yet stay with the game may simply flow to the GV scene.
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Possible explanation for why GV combat volume has taken less of a hit: Learning curve and SA requirements. People that don't have the patience to learn ACM yet stay with the game may simply flow to the GV scene.
You also have to consider that almost no 'regular' PC gamer has a joystick anymore these days. It's incredibly difficult to get the hang of flying a fighter if you don't know anything about ACM or even flight physics basics and only have a mouse available.
GV are simply much more accessible by order of a magnitude, especially since AH went to WASD.
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You also have to consider that almost no 'regular' PC gamer has a joystick anymore these days. It's incredibly difficult to get the hang of flying a fighter if you don't know anything about ACM or even flight physics basics and only have a mouse available.
GV are simply much more accessible by order of a magnitude, especially since AH went to WASD.
Before they get to ACM they need to master the view system. I think the view system learning curve is an order of magnitude easier for GV-ing than for flying. Especially as Lusche points out, for people that only have a mouse and keyboard.
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Before they get to ACM they need to master the view system. I think the view system learning curve is an order of magnitude easier for GV-ing than for flying. Especially as Lusche points out, for people that only have a mouse and keyboard.
I didn't have a joystick when I first wanted to try warbirds. So I went and bought one. Problem solved.
I don't see how this would be a bigger obstacle now?
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It's incredibly difficult to get the hang of flying a fighter if you don't know anything about ACM or even flight physics basics and only have a mouse available.
Really? Tell me about it.
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You also have to consider that almost no 'regular' PC gamer has a joystick anymore these days. It's incredibly difficult to get the hang of flying a fighter if you don't know anything about ACM or even flight physics basics and only have a mouse available.
GV are simply much more accessible by order of a magnitude, especially since AH went to WASD.
WASD?? :headscratch:
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WASD?? :headscratch:
(http://ianmarmourdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/wasd.jpeg)
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I didn't have a joystick when I first wanted to try warbirds. So I went and bought one. Problem solved.
I don't see how this would be a bigger obstacle now?
I dont know how it is like in your place, but where I live joysticks are not sold at stores anymore (almost). People are more reluctant to but something that the have not held in their hands or seen at a friends first and will not be used with other games. It is now stigmatized as "exotic" peripheral for your computer.
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(http://ianmarmourdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/wasd.jpeg)
Oh...
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I dont know how it is like in your place, but where I live joysticks are not sold at stores anymore (almost). People are more reluctant to but something that the have not held in their hands or seen at a friends first and will not be used with other games. It is now stigmatized as "exotic" peripheral for your computer.
I still the 3dpro at every BestBuy I go into, and the Frys electronics I go to has about 5 different choices for sticks. Where do you live?
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Why do you guys have so many Frys grocery stores? Waste of valuable electronics space!
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Bestbuy.com and have it sent to your store for pickup.
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Why do you guys have so many Frys grocery stores? Waste of valuable electronics space!
Lol, I'm not sure either :lol
Actually, they are Kroger (Fry's food.) However, I believe a long time ago there was a connection between Fry's and Fry's food, actually I think they were the same store and the electronics broke away.
Yes, terrible waste of space, Kroger/Fry's sucks here.
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ENY whines have been logged.