ENY values that may need HTC's attention

[RotBaron]

(Side note: I see the N1K clocking in at 670pts or 12ENY- 8 ENY is a touch low imho for an awesome plane that simply lacks a little top end speed)

Thanks for the input, affirms my position that the eny of 8 in the N1K is too high, since everyone is always running away from them, maybe with a mg package 8 could make sense...

 

[Letalis]

It was just my opinion...
To answer the question of why ppl might say it should be 8ENY, there are 5 primary reasons.

1. 4x20mm cannons
2. A  -ton of ammo per cannon
3. 2Cmex 
4. 2Cmex 
5. 2Cmex 

 

[bozon]

Yes, I've looked at quite a bit of data.  20k+ is a typical best speed regime for ALL planes.  That doesn't seem to help your argument.   http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php   Yes, the LA7 is a handful low and yes, most combat takes place low.  BUT, again, it isn't an A-G threat on par with LW U.S. birds, and it's gun package vastly inferior to the Jug.  Consider that the P-47 8x267 package carries 2136 bullets.  The LA-7 3x20mm packs 450 shells.

I'd take 3 nose mounted cannons over 8*0.5 in the wings any day. Also, La7 does not need spraying at range because it can close in on everything. In the Jug you are judo-fighting the planes that are buzzing around you and try to throw some 0.5s at them as they flyaway.

The La7 high altitude disadvantage is a myth. At 20k it is still a very formidable opponent. I think the real plane did not even had an oxygen bottle, so the pilots used to take a deep breath at 10k and hold it in while they zoomed to 20k to fight.

The La7 short range is also a myth. No it is not an escort fighter, but it can reach any fight in the MA with enough time to loiter. One day players will realize that traveling to/from combat at full throttle and 370 mph on the deck does not get them far. Next, they will discover the RPM control and that the throttle has more than 2 settings and start to travel at "only" 300-320 mph thus significantly enhancing their range.

There is already a precedence for perking a plane due to its alternative gun package - the F4U-C. The Chog was added as a separate model to the Dhog and thus could be perked. The (rare!) 3-gun La7 is just a loadout option instead of a different entry in the hangar and thus is not perked.

[Letalis]

You've obviously been around a while-inactive much of the time, but a long run.  You also have an excellent k/d vs the LA7 while flying "heavy" aircraft (U.S., Mossie).  It is surprising you would take the time to argue for perking the 7 when it presents less of a threat to you than the Pony...  Is it that Pony drivers are so much better or is it rather more complicated than that?  If you're going to argue for the LA7 to be perked with only a comparable k/d ratio, despite a fraction of the use the Pony sees and despite a fraction of the range and A-G utility on top of that...then ooook.

One other thing: in all your many kills I failed to find even ONE made with an LA7 OR LA5.  Perhaps I missed a tour.  It is a very good thing to know your enemy.  I've flown both a good bit offline and forced myself to make few kills with each in the context of the MA.  I found the ACM qualities outstanding, but the kill capability/expedience disappointing.  I recommend you log at least 10-20 kills with the LAs and check back into this thread.  

[bozon]

You've obviously been around a while-inactive much of the time, but a long run.  You also have an excellent k/d vs the LA7 while flying "heavy" aircraft (U.S., Mossie).  It is surprising you would take the time to argue for perking the 7 when it presents less of a threat to you than the Pony...  
<snip>

One other thing: in all your many kills I failed to find even ONE made with an LA7 OR LA5.  Perhaps I missed a tour.
<snip>

Since end of 2001 I've been away from the game a total of about 4 years, a few tours were under a different handle - all of this info is completely irrelevant. My own K/D against the La7 is also irrelevant. I am thinking in the context of the discussion and in the general benefit of the community and the game, not myself. The La7 deserves a perk tag for the same reason the F4UC and Tempest do, but the value should be minimal.

My first kill of a fighter versus fighter in the game was in an La7 (of a P38). I flew it in my first tours, then in scenarios, FSO and other events and flew La5 in the AvA arena when people were still in there. After that many years in the game and fighting against an abundant population of La7 piloted by all skill levels I pretty much know what it is capable of. Whether it should be perked or not does no depend on me mastering some quirk of its flight model.

[Shane]

I've done my part in trying to get the lala perked. 

  

[Zacherof]

Perk the A5!!!!
 

[--)SF----]

I've done my part in trying to get the lala perked. 

  

Pffft

[Ninthmessiah]

For my testing purposes, I use hitting power at convergence.  Yes, the hitting power of wing-based armament will be somewhat over-represented,

I would remove the adjective "somewhat" or change it to "plainly."

but it is more practical than building, and averaging and/or weighing lethality tables for every 50-100yds of distance for the amount of performance differentiation achieved.

This is a huge intentional oversight for the sake of practicality.  Averages are the name of the game here [trying to apply a fair ENY measuring stick across all planes for all players].  But it's your ENY chart so if you want to cut corners, then by all means.

Also, does your personal ENY rubric consider survivability?  I'm not talking about how much damage a plane can take, I'm talking about its ability to exit a fight at will.  Notice how most of the perk rides are really fast.

I'd take 3 nose mounted cannons over 8*0.5 in the wings any day.

Troof

[save]

@Save:  Similar to point above: comparing the LA7 to another of the worst dog-fighters in the game shouldn't be the criteria for getting something perked.
A distinction can be drawn between fighters and true dog fighters.  I think we can agree the LA7 is more in the dogfighter camp.  The fact is that most fights do not occur in an empty sector.  In a many v many, factors like sustained turn lose importance relative to snapshot firepower and firepower duration.  Aircraft that can blow away the enemy in the brief moment they end up in front of the nose are better off than aircraft that generally need to "latch" in order to get kills.  (I put the Yak-9U in this category, Spits to lesser degree)  Latching gobbles up SA and usually slows you down.  I wouldn't expect the 190A8's MA k/d to fall below the LA7's any time soon.     

re
I'm not advocating for a perk on the 2 gun version of the La-7, but only the 3-gun version. They where rare Real Life, yet I have not seen any 2-gunned LA-7 in AH.
The one and only reason la-7 is getting low k/d is the average pilot preferring them.

The plane should have its eny/perk for the planes capabilities, not the pilot flying it.

[Shane]

Pffft

I'll see your pfft and raise you a harumph.

   Kills In   Kills Of   Killed By   Died In   K/D
La-7   12,674   2,095   986   4,223   3.00

 

[Letalis]

@Bozon: Nice.  At least you know what you're talking about then.  Few things are more annoying than someone who wants to change the game simply because he has no clue what is going on in the other guy's shoes.

@Bozon/Save:  Agree perk prices should be based on what a plane can do, however are we sure what we're getting into when specific load options are perked?  The next thing that happens is that the jug gets a different eny with the 6 gun package than the 8 gun.  The Pony starts costing perks with 1k bombs, an extra perk for rockets...etc etc.  More fair? Sure, if done right- but you are introducing both workload and complexity that could cause secondary breakdowns in fairness when you could have just held the line at what is available to you when you selected the plane in the hangar.  All or nothing.  If the LA could carry even a single 500lb class bomb with its current fuel limitation, I'd be right there with you guys, it's just too limited.  It is noteworthy that more experienced players generally move on to other aircraft.  Two big reasons: 1.  They want more variety than the LA can offer.  2. The community starts throwing out "sausage" and "L-Gay" references in order to keep the pros out.  Impossible to measure how well this self-regulation works, but many in the community keep the good stuff reserved for noobs.  That consideration, apart from the pure performance factors might be enough enough to keep the LA out of the 1-2 perk cost range.

@Messiah:  If you can figure out a way to generate such data to your satisfaction and the time to do it in, you've done the community a service and fully deserve your "holier than thou" je ne sais quoi.  The fact is we are surrounded by a world of practical shortcuts.  Consider this next time you pull up to an intersection with mere metal signs painted red instead of a set of stoplights.  Also, if you look at the rubric, yes, survivability is both explicit (toughness subcat) and implicit.  Factors like view, turn, roll, climb and speed play into both an aircraft's offensive and defensive capability.  And yes, I had noticed perk rides are fast  

@Shane:  Pfft...Hey look! A sausage!


P-38L: 1019-306=3.33
F6F-5: 2036/459=4.43
P-47D-25: 2294/497=4.97

...And I may end up raising you a guffaw...

[Letalis]

No really, that JUST happened...

[save]

Most fair would be to have one fighter ENY and one for attack.

[Karnak]

Most fair would be to have one fighter ENY and one for attack.

If it is something like:

P-51D ATK 5
P-51D ENY 7

Sure.  But if it is:

P-51D ATK 5
P-51D ENY 20

then imbalances would need to cause much steeper limitations or you may as well dump the whole ENY idea.