Author Topic: ENY values that may need HTC's attention  (Read 5185 times)

Offline Mitsu

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2013, 08:26:00 PM »
The Ki-43 has no business at 40 ENY.  Try a 40 ENY Spit I, Hurri I or C.202 against it.  Even an A6M2 can't hang with it.  New ENY of 32.
Yeah...if Ki-43-I is released, it should be ENY 40. The Ki-43-II is around 30-35 fighter.
The Ki-84-I-a would be around 15. The Ki-84-I-b would be 5 fine if it's added. :D

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2013, 08:29:29 PM »
In your opinion, does that go for the Spitfire Mk XIV and Ta152H-1 as well?

To this day I do not understand why the Spit 14 is perked.  It may be the fastest Spit, but it is the worst turning, it has no ord, and has no greater range than any other Spitfires either. Oh, and the massive torque it produces makes it one of the most quirky in the game (even worse than the 190K-4).  The Ta152 is capable... up high.  Yeah, some hotdogs can make it dance at lower levels but there is a reason it is left behind in most cases.  This Spitfire 14 is hindered by the lack of range and is quirky, the Ta152 has more range but still lags behind in other categories.

IMO, when assigning an ENY the entire spectrum of a plane's abilities need to be taken in to account.  Attributes such as speed (both usable and tertiary), acceleration, climb, sustained turn radius, roll rate, gun package(s), ordnance capacity, structural integrity, and range should all on a slider.  Aircraft like the P51D are going to have most of its sliders are towards the "best" end of the spectrum, while aircraft like the P40C are going to be at the "worst" end of the spectrum.  Aircraft like the Spit14 and Ta152 do have some of the more important factors that make them more valuable for certain duties such as high speed and high alt interceptions (speed, climb rate, high altitude performance), but offer nothing in terms of moving dirt.  In AH, they offer nothing more than what the P51x can do ***at altitudes below 28k***, and the P51x offers far more range and forgiveness in operation.

The P51D is to fighters and dirt movers as the B29 is to the bombers: it is second to none.  Compare all the P51D can do vs every other plane in the game and I think it should be clear as to why it has the 5 ENY, and possibly could use an even lower ENY score of 3 or 4.    

Back to the Spit 14 and Ta152, and more so the Spit14, I think if HTC removed the perk cost we wouldn't see them any more except for the high altitude stuff.  If the Spit 14 is perked, why is the P51D and Spit 16 not?  :headscratch:

I also think HTC could very well apply a small perk cost to a whole host of aircraft.  Anything from the P51D, La7, Spit16, Lancs, Nik2, Typhoon, and maybe even the P38L.  I'm talking about a 1-2 perk cost at best. They did so with the gv's so why not the best of the fighters?
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Offline Karnak

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2013, 08:41:43 PM »
Well, hitech did reply on the first page of this thread, so there may be some adjustments coming.  It will be interesting to see.
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Offline Mitsu

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2013, 08:47:17 PM »
Well, hitech did reply on the first page of this thread, so there may be some adjustments coming.  It will be interesting to see.

Yes!  :)

Offline Letalis

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2013, 02:32:15 AM »
ENY is difficult to quantify.  If you're basing ENY on what an aircraft CAN do, it must be quantifiable and performance placed relative to the rest of the entire planeset, to include every submodel in the game.  Not just that, performance factors have to be weighed relative to the environment to a degree since not every plane model is represented uniformly in the MA.

I break performance down into 4 general categories, each with its own constituent factors:  Vector, Maneuver, Engagement & Intangibles.  Each category's constituent factors have a weight.  Weight is subjective but here's my stab...

Vector:
Top Speed (200), Acceleration (50), Dive Characteristics (40), Climb (60) = 350pts
Maneuver:  
Turn (includes instant, sustained, flap deploy speed and flap effectiveness (100), Roll (100) = 200pts
Engagement:
Toughness (includes not only damage tolerance but system redundancy and resilience.  The F4U-1A would trump the -1D because it has multiple fuel tanks) (50), Firepower (magnitude x duration x range x ballistics factor)  (100), Disposables (drop tanks, bombs, rockets) (100) = 250pts
Intangibles:
Visibility (how well you can see from inside cockpit as well as cockpit instrument layout) (100), Target Profile (how big a target your aircraft is) (50), Availability (reflects production, CV availability.  Hellcats were mass produced which would add a zero here, but since it is available from a CV, it gets the full 50pts.  The P-47M with a production run of 130 would get a 40 or 50)  (50), Combat Endurance (combination of the difference between max fuel consumption and cruise fuel consumption and overall range based on internal fuel only) =250pts

Within each subcategory, I assigned points based on the percentage of the overall planeset that aircraft trumps within the category.  For example, the P-51D outruns some 90%+ of the planeset.  Of the 200 points available in the top speed subcat, the 51D would get ~185, while a Hellcat would get somewhere in the vicinity of 90 points.  Rinse and repeat for each subcat.

Total points available 1050.
Based on subjective assessment, here's what I came out with (rounded to nearest 5pt increment).

190A5: 620, Tempest: 780, P-47N: 740, P-47M: 675, P-47D40: 605, P-47D25: 585, P-47D11: 470, Yak-9U: 615, D9: 730, 38L: 580, 38J: 550, Ki-43: 475, Ki-84: 660, ME410: 480, ME110G2: 470, P40C: 395, F6F: 595, Spit16: 645, Spit14: 635, Spit8: 595, Spit9: 485, 109G2: 495, 109K4: 570, LA7: 675, P-51D: 705, P-51B: 625, P-39D: 380, P-39Q: 420, F4U4: 760, -1A: 660, -1D: 685,  FM-2: 490, Moss6: 580, Brew: 530, IL-2: 415.  

The system broke down somewhat when I got to the 262.  The Temp does pretty much everything the 262 can do, but better with the exception of top speed.  However, while the Temp gets something like 196 points in the category, the 262 and 163's huge speed advantages over the Temp amounted to just a 3-4 points within the speed category because everything is based on the percentage of the planeset trumped, not necessarily magnitude. (I let this discrep go because it was easier and reflected the law of decreasing return)  The 262 came in at a measly 700 and the ME163 came in at 770.  Hmm.  :headscratch:

Now, when looking at the F6F (595) vs the K4 (570), you'd think the F6F is the more capable aircraft overall, and you'd be right.  But in strictly A-A categories (vector+maneuver), the K4 trumps the F6F 410-295.  Different aircraft make bank in different categories, therefore it may be useful to have separate ENY values for a given aircraft for fighter and attack mode.  A ME410 would deserve a 5 or 10ENY value under the current system in attack mode but something like 30 if in fighter mode. (Personally not in favor, too complicated)

Aircraft sampling mean point value: (20410/35)=583.  
If we round and take 580 to be the middle ground of 20ENY, square the difference between a given aircraft and the mean value and divide by 1000, then add or subtract from 20, you get a bell curve as well as a fairly good approximation of ENY.  A few examples: the 51D would be 4.4ENY.  IE: 705-580=125.  125^2=15625.  15625/1000=15.625.  20.0-15.625=4.38. The Ki-84 would be 13.6ENY, K4: 19.9, Spit 16: 15.7, Spit 14: 17ENY (very much unperked), Yak-9U: 18.8, C.205: 30ENY, F4U4: -20 (costs 20 perks to up) etc etc.

I think something of a broader scale is more representative of what actually occurs in the MA.  The P-39Q and 109G2 are both currently at 30ENY, but the Q can't hold a candle to the G-2.  The P-39Q would have an ENY of 46 while the G-2 would sit at 31. The lowly P-39D for reference would sit at 60ENY  :O  With things scaled as such, we could keep the current fighter score metrics, but also add a category for perk points accrued per hour multiplied by percentage of sorties landed or somesuch.  Yes, I like the idea of a little more MA diversity.  :salute










 


« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 03:04:20 AM by Letalis »
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Offline Debrody

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2013, 02:47:53 AM »
Huh, nice writeup!
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Offline Crash Orange

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2013, 04:04:33 AM »
"109 K4 is 20 and should be 10-12."

WTF! it otta be 5 like the pony. its faster (in the modeller`s world), climbs better and one of those taters hits harder than 50 rounds of 50 cals. :mad:

Something I forgot to note in my response: ord capacity plays a role too, otherwise the D-hog wouldn't have a better ENY than the -1A. The pony can do everything it does in air-to-air combat AND take out a hangar in one pass. It also has long legs and performs well at higher altitudes. The K-4 is fantastic at what it does but the roles in which it is effective are more limited.

Offline ReVo

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2013, 06:08:35 AM »
I think ENY is fine as it is for most if not all the aircraft in game.
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Offline Debrody

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2013, 06:55:24 AM »
"109 K4 is 20 and should be 10-12."

WTF! it otta be 5 like the pony. its faster (in the modeller`s world), climbs better and one of those taters hits harder than 50 rounds of 50 cals. :mad:

Dear, the fact that you dont use any other part of the aircraft but the engine, doesnt mean that the aircraft is nothing else but an engine   ;)
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Offline Karnak

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2013, 08:17:25 AM »
Letalis,

It looks like you left usage out of your system.  Usage has a major impact on ENY currently as usage is one of the largest determining factors in the effect an aircraft has on the MA.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2013, 08:38:49 AM »
This post in my megathread may be pertinent to this discussion.
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Offline Letalis

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2013, 02:02:40 PM »
Letalis,

It looks like you left usage out of your system.  Usage has a major impact on ENY currently as usage is one of the largest determining factors in the effect an aircraft has on the MA.

Good point.  Wasn't sure about pandering to this factor, but it is a factor nonetheless.

I don't have access to sortie counts, and because k/d is often skewed by a small number of pilots, I settled on overall kills as my baseline for fighter aircraft. So here goes...

Right now the Spit16 has about 9k kills out of 288.5k total for the MA, about 3% of the total.  If we take the total kill % for the S16 and square it, you get 9.  Subtract 9 from the 15.7 figure established earlier and you get 6.7ENY for the Spit16 at current usage levels.  Of course, there are secondary effects: the Spit 14 for example would be unperked and eat a greater portion of Spit sorties. I'd expect both types to end up  between 8 and 10ENY as a result.

Using the same formula, the 51D with it's 5.3% (15.6k) of MA kills would end up at  24 perks at current usage levels.  (5.3^2=28.1, 28.1-4.4=23.7) Of course this is higher than it would ever get if this system were in use the first place.  If the Pony were tempered as such and had a more nominal 6k kills at this point in the tour, you'd get an aircraft that costs just a couple perks.(2.1^2=4.41  Since ENY stops at 2, we actually start going negative (costing perks) at 2, so the 51D with 6k kills would cost 2.4 perks, rounding down to 2.)

It is a pretty easy (but unpopular argument) looking at Lusche's stats that the 51D unbalances the game more than the Spit16.  Besides, you make ONE kill of a 4ENY (baseline value) 51D in your 60ENY 39D, you've just earned 15 perks or 7 free rides in a pony.  (More if you get kills and don't simply roll, invert and pull at the departure end of the runway)  

The Ki-84 with its 4k kills at this point in the tour would see a -1.9ENY penalty at current usage levels putting it at 13.6-1.9=11.7ENY.  The K4 would sit at -4ENY and 16ENY with current use.

ENY modification would only apply to types which make up more than 1% of total MA kills.  

When a new tour starts and there are no K/D numbers to reference.  It'd be necessary to temporarily lock the perk costs based on previous tour usage for a set period of time till a sufficient sampling within the new tour is generated.   :salute
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 04:56:08 PM by Letalis »
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Offline save

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2013, 07:11:29 PM »
B-17 and B-24 both have 20 ENY.  The difference in survivability is much bigger than the difference in bombload.  The B-17's ENY needs to be less than the B-24's.  the Lanc is 15, so make the B-17, 17.
109 G14 is 25 ENY and should be 20.  109 K4 is 20 and should be 10-12.
110G and 410 are 15 but Mossie6 is 30.  :headscratch:  All three should be 20 ENY.  
The B-239 is 30 and should be 25.
The F4U-1 is 25 and should be 20
The F4U-1A is 15 and should be 10-12
The 190 A8, A5 and F8 are all 25 ENY.  The F8 lacks the firepower of the A8 and the handling of the A5.  The A5/A8 should be 22 ENY.
The G4M1 is 30 ENY, while the Ju88 is 35.  :headscratch:  The Betty is 40 ENY all the way.
The Ki-43 has no business at 40 ENY.  Try a 40 ENY Spit I, Hurri I or C.202 against it.  Even an A6M2 can't hang with it.  New ENY of 32.
La-5 is 25 and should be 20.
P-38L (15 ENY)is comparable to the F4U-1D (10 ENY)in bomb trucking.  P-38L drops to 12 ENY.
P-38J's only difference from the L is rocket tubes.  New ENY 15.
P-47M and N are both 10 ENY but M carries no ords.  47M is bumped to 12 ENY.
Ki-84 is 20 ENY and should be 12.

B-17 and B-24 both have 20 ENY.  The difference in survivability is much bigger than the difference in bombload.  The B-17's ENY needs to be less than the B-24's.  the Lanc is 15, so make the B-17, 17. agree
B17 much harder to kill , even lower it more.

109 G14 is 25 ENY and should be 20.  109 K4 is 20 and should be 10-12.
110G and 410 are 15 but Mossie6 is 30.  :headscratch:  All three should be 20 ENY.  Mossie has 4 hispanos, vastly outclimbs and outfly both the other planes, also have internal ord  :headscratch: :headscratch:
The B-239 is 30 and should be 25.
The F4U-1 is 25 and should be 20
The F4U-1A is 15 and should be 10-12
The 190 A8, A5 and F8 are all 25 ENY.  The F8 lacks the firepower of the A8 and the handling of the A5.  The A5/A8 should be 22 ENY. F8 probably worst turner in game, challenged only by  410. F8, A5 and A8 are VERY different planes in MA,energy burn makes this stay up there in ENY, I would say 25/22/30
The G4M1 is 30 ENY, while the Ju88 is 35.  :headscratch:  The Betty is 40 ENY all the way.agree
The Ki-43 has no business at 40 ENY.  Try a 40 ENY Spit I, Hurri I or C.202 against it.  Even an A6M2 can't hang with it.  New ENY of 32.
La-5 is 25 and should be 20.
P-38L (15 ENY)is comparable to the F4U-1D (10 ENY)in bomb trucking.  P-38L drops to 12 ENY. No, it cant dive with many planes, big target
P-38J's only difference from the L is rocket tubes.  New ENY 15. this one dives even worse
P-47M and N are both 10 ENY but M carries no ords.  47M is bumped to 12 ENY.
Ki-84 is 20 ENY and should be 12.
 
I would prefer to have one Attack ENY and one Fighter ENY for a aircraft model. Example 190F8 is an excellent ground-attack plane,at the same time few if anyone would put their foot into the same plane as a fighter = ENY A10/F35
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 07:14:55 PM by save »
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Offline caldera

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2013, 08:24:38 AM »
No problem with making the B-17 even lower, say 15 ENY.  Ultimate bombload/vulnerable Lanc = medium bombload/ultimate survivability B-17.

110G can fight pretty well and is at least as dangerous as the Mossie.  The 410 has stand-off ability to kill bombers and tailguns.  They are all different but more or less in the same ball park.

30 ENY seems a little generous for the F8.  It is fast and has good firepower.  Make it 28, the A5 24 and the A8 22. 

The 38s seem to dive on me quite well.  In fact, the modus operandi seems to be: "perch, dive, zoom, rope, repeat".


And to the guy that complained about making the B-239, 25 ENY: "dude - seriously?"


These are all just opinions anyway - and from an AH plebe, at that.  :)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 08:35:28 AM by caldera »
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Offline Karnak

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2013, 08:38:04 AM »
The Bf110G-2 needs to be lower than the Mosquito Mk VI or the Me410.  The Bf110G-2's forte is not air-to-air, where it is inferior to the Mosquito, though superior to the Me410.  Its forte is as an attacker and in that role no fighter can match it, not even the P-47N or P-38L.  It carries more than twice the destructive power of a Mosquito Mk VI and for that, when sides are imbalanced, the side with numbers needs to lose their Bf110G-2s.

Bf110G-2: ENY 12
Mosquito Mk VI: ENY 20
Me410: ENY 25
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