Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Shifty on June 22, 2013, 06:48:31 PM
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Cruising the net today I came across this photo. I've been devouring every WWII photo I could lay my hands on for a least since I was aged 10 or so some 44 years ago. I have never seen this photo over the years.
(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ww2_15/s_w24_07020215.jpg)
Obviously it is a B5N in trouble. The text that goes with the photo reads..
With its gunner visible in the back cockpit, this Japanese dive bomber, smoke streaming from the cowling, is headed for destruction in the water below after being shot down near Truk, Japanese stronghold in the Carolines, by a Navy PB4Y on July 2, 1944. Lieutenant Commander William Janeshek, pilot of the American plane, said the gunner acted as though he was about to bail out and then suddenly sat down and was still in the plane when it hit the water and exploded. (AP Photo/U.S. Navy)
Something about the gunner's struggles really haunted me, and I can't but wonder why he just sat back down to his fate. It looks as if the Pilot and Radio Operator or Aircraft Commander who flew in the center seat are incapacitated from the smoke and heat. At least that is my guess from the condition of the engine. I wonder why did the guy not jump? No chute? Didn't want to die a slow death of exposure to the elements? This photo is no more tragic than the one below.
(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ww2_15/s_w18_a2000003.jpg)
Yet the airman' struggles in the top photo really touched me. I guess the difference is the lower photo I've seen over and over the past 44 or so years and maybe I've gotten numb to it. Even though it is every bit as tragic as the upper photo.
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They knew the risk.
Espiecally flying NOE sorties.
Some people could learn a thing or 2 from these guys.
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Some people could learn a thing or 2 from these guys.
What to apply in the world of cartoon planes? :rolleyes:
About as relevant as applying to the world of Angry Birds.
<S>...-Gixer
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Well they are angry :old:
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Well, it strikes me that while intellectually we know the crew of the plane in the second photo died when it hit the water we don't see them and thus their struggle is not as personalized as the struggle of the gunner who we do see out of his seat, trying to find a way to survive.
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My grandfather wrote in his general(which I'll try and get back to writing) that a TBM crashed into the water, on fire, and exploaded with some of the crew nearby wiping them out.
Anyone read the book by james Bradley on the flyboys who were consumed bt thier japanease captors???
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Well, it strikes me that while intellectually we know the crew of the plane in the second photo died when it hit the water we don't see them and thus their struggle is not as personalized as the struggle of the gunner who we do see out of his seat, trying to find a way to survive.
Great point.
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Cruising the net today I came across this photo. I've been devouring every WWII photo I could lay my hands on for a least since I was aged 10 or so some 44 years ago. I have never seen this photo over the years.
(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ww2_15/s_w24_07020215.jpg)
Obviously it is a B5N in trouble. The text that goes with the photo reads..
With its gunner visible in the back cockpit, this Japanese dive bomber, smoke streaming from the cowling, is headed for destruction in the water below after being shot down near Truk, Japanese stronghold in the Carolines, by a Navy PB4Y on July 2, 1944. Lieutenant Commander William Janeshek, pilot of the American plane, said the gunner acted as though he was about to bail out and then suddenly sat down and was still in the plane when it hit the water and exploded. (AP Photo/U.S. Navy)
Something about the gunner's struggles really haunted me, and I can't but wonder why he just sat back down to his fate. It looks as if the Pilot and Radio Operator or Aircraft Commander who flew in the center seat are incapacitated from the smoke and heat. At least that is my guess from the condition of the engine. I wonder why did the guy not jump? No chute? Didn't want to die a slow death of exposure to the elements? This photo is no more tragic than the one below.
(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ww2_15/s_w18_a2000003.jpg)
Yet the airman' struggles in the top photo really touched me. I guess the difference is the lower photo I've seen over and over the past 44 or so years and maybe I've gotten numb to it. Even though it is every bit as tragic as the upper photo.
Too low to bail, looks to me.
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Thought about that too, but it is hard to tell over water.
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New one to me too Shifty. Frightening stuff.
The one that always gets me is that NMF B24 that is being filmed and gets hit in the left wing near the inboard engine. The wing folds and the plane starts to slide out of camera range. Just as it does you can see the escape hatch in front of the top turret open. In those couple of seconds someone managed to move that fast,yet you know it's all for naught as that bird is tumbling. Unless they get blown out, they'll ride it down.
Even harder to swallow is it was more then likely struck from a bomb falling from above it, meaning someone was in the wrong place in the formation.
Yuck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lioRCye2Dug
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Burma%20Maps/Lib_zps194af35a.jpg)
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I remember there was a compilation of gun cams somewhere on YouTube, one of them showed a pilot in his chute getting shot at. Couldn't remember which side he belonged to but my vague memory tells me it was a German pilot and the gun cam from a P51.
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Cruising the net today I came across this photo. I've been devouring every WWII photo I could lay my hands on for a least since I was aged 10 or so some 44 years ago. I have never seen this photo over the years.
(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ww2_15/s_w24_07020215.jpg)
Obviously it is a B5N in trouble. The text that goes with the photo reads..
With its gunner visible in the back cockpit, this Japanese dive bomber, smoke streaming from the cowling, is headed for destruction in the water below after being shot down near Truk, Japanese stronghold in the Carolines, by a Navy PB4Y on July 2, 1944. Lieutenant Commander William Janeshek, pilot of the American plane, said the gunner acted as though he was about to bail out and then suddenly sat down and was still in the plane when it hit the water and exploded. (AP Photo/U.S. Navy)
Something about the gunner's struggles really haunted me, and I can't but wonder why he just sat back down to his fate. It looks as if the Pilot and Radio Operator or Aircraft Commander who flew in the center seat are incapacitated from the smoke and heat. At least that is my guess from the condition of the engine. I wonder why did the guy not jump? No chute? Didn't want to die a slow death of exposure to the elements? This photo is no more tragic than the one below.
(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ww2_15/s_w18_a2000003.jpg)
Yet the airman' struggles in the top photo really touched me. I guess the difference is the lower photo I've seen over and over the past 44 or so years and maybe I've gotten numb to it. Even though it is every bit as tragic as the upper photo.
speculation only but, on the surface it would seem the plane was too close to the ground and travelling too fast for the gunner to bail out and survive. he could have seen that.
you have to also remember the fear of capture by the japanese due to the propaganda that they would be horribly tortured if caught by americans. then there was the japanese ideology of "honor" and "death before dishonor", fear of dishonoring ones family and country was stronger than the fear of death.
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Someone posted this moving and tragic video some time ago. It includes the doomed B-24 Guppy posted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxqg_ub3xAw
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speculation only but, on the surface it would seem the plane was too close to the ground and travelling too fast for the gunner to bail out and survive. he could have seen that.
you have to also remember the fear of capture by the japanese due to the propaganda that they would be horribly tortured if caught by americans. then there was the japanese ideology of "honor" and "death before dishonor", fear of dishonoring ones family and country was stronger than the fear of death.
First instinct was a human one of self preservation. Second reaction by sitting calmly until the crash was the honor before dishonor.
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This was off to the side of Guppys youtube post http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=Qg0Jj-2x5rM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=Qg0Jj-2x5rM)
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Hey Shifty, shoot me ur address ( PM ) , Id like to send u an original photo as a housewarming gift.... I collect original WW2 aviation photos, and would love to see one of them hanging on ur wall at the new abode :aok
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After getting out of the smoke and seeing the water and the attitude of the aircraft, he might just have felt that his best chance was staying with the aircraft.
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Even if he would have bailed out nobody was going to come pick him up. Hopelessness and dying an honorable death for the Emperor in the twisted brainwashed version of the Bushido the Japanese were pushing on their youths in the early 20th century and throughout the war likely calmed him enough to ride it in.
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Even if he would have bailed out nobody was going to come pick him up. Hopelessness and dying an honorable death for the Emperor in the twisted brainwashed version of the Bushido the Japanese were pushing on their youths in the early 20th century and throughout the war likely calmed him enough to ride it in.
Even with a Western mindset, I think I would rather die with my buds than leave them only to spend possibly months by myself in an unknown hostile jungle.
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Its just a haunting image plain and simple. By the way Zacherof many of the combatants of WWII were draftees or conscripts. Not everybody had the luxury of knowing what they were getting into.
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Its just a haunting image plain and simple. By the way Zacherof many of the combatants of WWII were draftees or conscripts. Not everybody had the luxury of knowing what they were getting into.
That's important to note. The war wasn't sold to guys buy showing them what might happen.
I've been reading the recently published history of JG/2 by Eric Mombeek. Just watching the unit be formed it's classic in selling the 'glory' of it. Photos of ceremonies near Richtofen's grave with a Triplane brought in along with a 109 to show the connection. The whole 'Knights of the Air' bit showing itself.
One of the long time serving JG2 pilots talks about it. They really never had a chance to question it as they got it from the start. Your enemy is over there. He's responsible for your lot in life. The airwar in particular played well to guys wanting to go fast and be cool with all that horsepower, the sleek lines, the big guns and fancy paint.
Look at any photo of a newly graduated pilot from any country during WW2 and then look at a photo after they've been in combat for a while. They had no idea what they were getting into. By the time it sank in they were faced with a choice of letting their buddies down or continuing to take the risks, then knowing what might happen.
One of the survivors of a B-24 crew I researched for many years said in the end the best thing that happened to him was being shot down, as he knew he'd have lost his mind otherwise from the constant fear and strain. He went down on his 13th, survived being a POW. Of his 10 man crew from their graduation picture, six died and four survived. He didn't make that statement lightly.
One of the other survivors was in a POW camp with an infantry officer who'd been captured during the Battle of the Bulge. He made the comment that this guy saved his life in the POW camp and never got a chance to thank him. But a stroke of luck I found the guy and got them back in touch. This infantry guy had fought the demons ever since, in and out of the VA and never really being able to get a grip on what he'd seen. Yet in the midst of it he'd saved this B24 bombardiers life.
I was corresponding with him and asked if he could tell me any more about his experience. He tried to and as he wrote you could literally see the shaking in his hand start and what had been very nice handwriting start to become illegible to the point he apologized and said he just couldn't do it.
Absolutely broke my heart to see that and for him to feel the need to apologize for not being able to write.
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That's important to note. The war wasn't sold to guys buy showing them what might happen.
I've been reading the recently published history of JG/2 by Eric Mombeek. Just watching the unit be formed it's classic in selling the 'glory' of it. Photos of ceremonies near Richtofen's grave with a Triplane brought in along with a 109 to show the connection. The whole 'Knights of the Air' bit showing itself.
One of the long time serving JG2 pilots talks about it. They really never had a chance to question it as they got it from the start. Your enemy is over there. He's responsible for your lot in life. The airwar in particular played well to guys wanting to go fast and be cool with all that horsepower, the sleek lines, the big guns and fancy paint.
Look at any photo of a newly graduated pilot from any country during WW2 and then look at a photo after they've been in combat for a while. They had no idea what they were getting into. By the time it sank in they were faced with a choice of letting their buddies down or continuing to take the risks, then knowing what might happen.
One of the survivors of a B-24 crew I researched for many years said in the end the best thing that happened to him was being shot down, as he knew he'd have lost his mind otherwise from the constant fear and strain. He went down on his 13th, survived being a POW. Of his 10 man crew from their graduation picture, six died and four survived. He didn't make that statement lightly.
One of the other survivors was in a POW camp with an infantry officer who'd been captured during the Battle of the Bulge. He made the comment that this guy saved his life in the POW camp and never got a chance to thank him. But a stroke of luck I found the guy and got them back in touch. This infantry guy had fought the demons ever since, in and out of the VA and never really being able to get a grip on what he'd seen. Yet in the midst of it he'd saved this B24 bombardiers life.
I was corresponding with him and asked if he could tell me any more about his experience. He tried to and as he wrote you could literally see the shaking in his hand start and what had been very nice handwriting start to become illegible to the point he apologized and said he just couldn't do it.
Absolutely broke my heart to see that and for him to feel the need to apologize for not being able to write.
Wow awesome story thanks Dan.
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I remember there was a compilation of gun cams somewhere on YouTube, one of them showed a pilot in his chute getting shot at. Couldn't remember which side he belonged to but my vague memory tells me it was a German pilot and the gun cam from a P51.
This one or one like it? Not quite in his chute but it's the closest I remember seeing.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_matehlgU081rhvtmko1_500.jpg)
"A German pilot bails from his Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Würger (Shrike) after it was struck by machine gun fire from a US fighter-bomber, Belgium - December 1944."
Sources seem to agree that it was from a P-47s gun camera.
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Something about the gunner's struggles really haunted me
Imagine that. I expect he figured that he was too low to bail (if he had a chute) and it was time to make his peace. Hope I have that presence of mind under similar circumstances, if ever they occur.
Good find, Shifty, I've never seen that photo either.
- oldman
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Someone posted this moving and tragic video some time ago. It includes the doomed B-24 Guppy posted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxqg_ub3xAw
That was very worthy, Sholz, thanks.
- oldman
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Couldn't find the film, but there's a classic kamakazi shoot down where the pilot's chute opens and the gunners continue firing away. Considering all that was going on, it wasn't a huge surprise to see.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Burma%20Maps/13_zpse42f806d.jpg)
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Imagine that. I expect he figured that he was too low to bail (if he had a chute) and it was time to make his peace. Hope I have that presence of mind under similar circumstances, if ever they occur.
Good find, Shifty, I've never seen that photo either.
- oldman
Yeah kind of makes me wonder how it has been missed by so many of us old WWII Airplane nuts all these years. :)
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TGG93, it started during the Battle of Britain really. Despite the fact that Britain is an island nation it was the Germans who had the best SAR system. They had several squadrons of flying boats especially trained to rescue downed pilots at sea. At first the Germans marked their SAR planes with red crosses hoping thay would offer some protection under the Geneva Conventions, but the RAF shot them down regardless. In turn the Luftwaffe started strafing RAF rescue launches and pilots in their dinghies. It just escalated from there...
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This one or one like it? Not quite in his chute but it's the closest I remember seeing.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_matehlgU081rhvtmko1_500.jpg)
"A German pilot bails from his Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Würger (Shrike) after it was struck by machine gun fire from a US fighter-bomber, Belgium - December 1944."
Sources seem to agree that it was from a P-47s gun camera.
No, the pilot's chute was already open and the gun cam was rolling, the plane was super close. But I haven't seen that pic before either, damn that's scary. I'll try to find the youtube video again.
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Even if he would have bailed out nobody was going to come pick him up. Hopelessness and dying an honorable death for the Emperor in the twisted brainwashed version of the Bushido the Japanese were pushing on their youths in the early 20th century and throughout the war likely calmed him enough to ride it in.
From what I've read of Japanese sources this point is overstressed in American and European books. Yes, the propaganda was there, but it was not as effective or bought into as all that. In a lot of cases they did things because they didn't really have a choice. Saburo Sakai made some comments about that in regards to the kamikazes. I'm not saying that there weren't fanatics as there certainly were, but it was hardly universal.
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I'm currently reading Eagles of the Southern Sky. I am suprised how many of Saburo Sakai's Kokutai mates took to their chutes in and around Port Moresby.
Not all the Tainan Kokutai pilots used their chutes for seat cushions only.
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Didn't both axis and allies have bouyies with radios or something like that tomswim to if they bailed out in the channel?
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Didn't both axis and allies have bouyies with radios or something like that tomswim to if they bailed out in the channel?
Yes I believe they did in the English Channel during the Battle of Britain. Not so in the PTO.
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TGG93, it started during the Battle of Britain really. Despite the fact that Britain is an island nation it was the Germans who had the best SAR system. They had several squadrons of flying boats especially trained to rescue downed pilots at sea. At first the Germans marked their SAR planes with red crosses hoping thay would offer some protection under the Geneva Conventions, but the RAF shot them down regardless. In turn the Luftwaffe started strafing RAF rescue launches and pilots in their dinghies. It just escalated from there...
The Polish pilots shooting of guys in their chutes was well documented, also was the fact that the German Red Cross planes were routinely used for reconnaissance was one of the reasons for them being attacked. Also what springs to mind is the fact that you may have been jumped by an enemy, he tries to kill you without you knowing he was there, you reverse him and shoot him down, he bails and all of a sudden any animosity you feel towards him is expected to be instantly dispelled?
One of my oldest friends fought in Rhodesia, he parachuted in ion the Westlands Farm raid and whilst hung up in a tree had a dissident terrosrist empty a mag and a half of AK fire at him and missed. Dave cut himself down and the now ammo-less terrorist threw down his weapon surrender. He got promptly drilled and rightly so!
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The Japs didnt give their air crews parachutes right?
The odds of getting out of a falling Lancaster were one in five due to there only being one door to escape from. In a B-17 they were three in five. Overall you had far better odds being a mud pusher in WW2 then being a bomber pilot in Europe. I expect your odds werent that good being a IJA or IJN pilot either. Most of all since your own people didnt value you enough to have you do anything but die.
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The Japs didnt give their air crews parachutes right?
The odds of getting out of a falling Lancaster were one in five due to there only being one door to escape from. In a B-17 they were three in five. Overall you had far better odds being a mud pusher in WW2 then being a bomber pilot in Europe. I expect your odds werent that good being a IJA or IJN pilot either. Most of all since your own people didnt value you enough to have you do anything but die.
Makes it sound as though you believe that the powers that be in any other countries feel any differently about their troops?
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Makes it sound as though you believe that the powers that be in any other countries feel any differently about their troops?
Your kidding right?
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Your kidding right?
Errm, no, not really. Do you think Haig or Kitchener, or Eisenhower, McCarthur, Sandy Woodward, Tony Blair or George Bush have or had any compunction about sending men to die other than in relation to their political image. You are mistaken if you believe differently.
Japanese troops were expected to die gloriously for their emporer, all other armed forces bestow high awards on those that do the same. Surely there is a correlation.
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The Japs didnt give their air crews parachutes right?
Rich Japanese pilots were issued parachutes. Many of them chose not to use them for various reasons ranging from they hampered them while doing ACM to they were operating over enemy territory and chose not to wear them for fear of being captured. Then again many did wear them and use them.
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Rich Japanese pilots were issued parachutes. Many of them chose not to use them for various reasons ranging from they hampered them while doing ACM to they were operating over enemy territory and chose not to wear them for fear of being captured. Then again many did wear them and use them.
Might could be. I know most, at least, refused to even wear them. I cant ever remember a photo of a jap pilot parachuting.
I do believe , overall, that Allied leaders values the lives of their men more then Axis ones did. Most of all the Japs. Most of all the officers of the IJA, who treated their men as little better then dogs. Of all the military services of the time the IJA was a study in institutionalized brutality starting the day the men entered service until the day the day they would be ordered to die a useless death. Many Jap, German, and Soviet soldiers were not even nationals and little more then slaves who were forced to fight at threat of death from their masters. How much you think there own leadership gave a damn about them?
It pretty much came down to the individual officer regarding the welfare of their own men. The German army, most of all the old Prussian officers, were professional and didnt like to see useless death. But they still answered to the Party and to Hitler and had to obey "until the last man and bullet" orders as their country was being systematically destroyed. The Soviets had no second thoughts about ordering their men to certain death. Even mowing down the few survivors who came running back. The Soviet leadership didnt give a damn about casualties.
And the Japs embraced death. If they didnt order their men to certain death then they left them to starve on Islands nobody remembers. Both the Japanese and German Govt.'s refused to quit even as their populations of woman and children were being immolated in the horror of firebombing. Let alone what the soldiers went thru.
I dont think theres even a comparison. Thru history Dictatorships and military Govt.'s arent exactly known for their concern over their own casualties. I could name all the conflicts but do I really have to?
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This one or one like it? Not quite in his chute but it's the closest I remember seeing.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_matehlgU081rhvtmko1_500.jpg)
"A German pilot bails from his Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Würger (Shrike) after it was struck by machine gun fire from a US fighter-bomber, Belgium - December 1944."
Sources seem to agree that it was from a P-47s gun camera.
I've read two instances of pilots attacking bailed aircrew in their chutes.
1. Krupinski witnessed a Russian yak pilot attack and kill his fellow squad mate in the chute. It infuriated him and he broke discipline to attack the offending Russian pilot.
2. While not in his chute, Bob Johnson did attack a German pilot as he was attempting to exit his doomed 109. While he was returning to England alone, after a big dogfight over Dummer Lake, Johnson was attacked by the lone 109. After a 1 on 1 battle that lasted for more than a few minutes, Johnson was able to score hits on the 109. As the pilot climbed out of the cockpit. He stated the German was good enough in his 109 that he didn't want him to face an more allied pilots. Right or wrong, we look at in hind sight.
I have read pilot's memoirs/bios where they state thy had heard reports of their respective enemies shooting bailed pilots in the chute. Galland mentions this in an interview I recently read.
On a slightly different note, I read an account from a U.S. medium bomber aircrew at in an operation at Bogainville where they were ordered to strafe Japanese survivors from a troop transport they had just sunk.
When I get back to the house, I can provide references. Currently on Urlaub in Italy.
Shifty, thanks for posting that photo - first time seeing it for me.
Ammo
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I'm currently reading Eagles of the Southern Sky. I am suprised how many of Saburo Sakai's Kokutai mates took to their chutes in and around Port Moresby.
Not all the Tainan Kokutai pilots used their chutes for seat cushions only.
How is that book Shifty? I've been eyeing it for a while now.
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Might could be. I know most, at least, refused to even wear them. I cant ever remember a photo of a jap pilot parachuting.
I remember one. It was about 3 posts ago in this very thread.
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Might could be. I know most, at least, refused to even wear them. I cant ever remember a photo of a jap pilot parachuting.
I do believe , overall, that Allied leaders values the lives of their men more then Axis ones did. Most of all the Japs. Most of all the officers of the IJA, who treated their men as little better then dogs. Of all the military services of the time the IJA was a study in institutionalized brutality starting the day the men entered service until the day the day they would be ordered to die a useless death. Many Jap, German, and Soviet soldiers were not even nationals and little more then slaves who were forced to fight at threat of death from their masters. How much you think there own leadership gave a damn about them?
It pretty much came down to the individual officer regarding the welfare of their own men. The German army, most of all the old Prussian officers, were professional and didnt like to see useless death. But they still answered to the Party and to Hitler and had to obey "until the last man and bullet" orders as their country was being systematically destroyed. The Soviets had no second thoughts about ordering their men to certain death. Even mowing down the few survivors who came running back. The Soviet leadership didnt give a damn about casualties.
And the Japs embraced death. If they didnt order their men to certain death then they left them to starve on Islands nobody remembers. Both the Japanese and German Govt.'s refused to quit even as their populations of woman and children were being immolated in the horror of firebombing. Let alone what the soldiers went thru.
I dont think theres even a comparison. Thru history Dictatorships and military Govt.'s arent exactly known for their concern over their own casualties. I could name all the conflicts but do I really have to?
Fairly sure that Winston told British units to stand and fight more than once.
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How is that book Shifty? I've been eyeing it for a while now.
I really like it Soulyss, I've learned a lot in it. In fact I was unaware exactly how many of the Tainan Kokutai pilots actually did take to their parachutes
there are quite a few instaces in the book. One thing about the book that disappointed me. The quality of the paper it is printed on is not very good and
for 70+ Dollars I would have preferred a hardback. However the amount of info contained on the IJN RAAF and USAAF operating in Papua New Guinea during 1942 is
fantastic. Organization of the Tainan Kokutai aircraft markings and story's of the units pilots other than the well known Sasai Squadron of Saburo Sakai fame is
very intersting as well. :aok
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Only the luckiest aircrew made it to those those English Channel rescue bouys. Death from drowning or exposure, especially October-June was the lot of most not picked up by Air-Sea rescue or that were found by a ship.
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Even harder to swallow is it was more then likely struck from a bomb falling from above it, meaning someone was in the wrong place in the formation.
Yuck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lioRCye2Dug
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Burma%20Maps/Lib_zps194af35a.jpg)
It was struck by a falling bomb. I have seen other video footage in recent History Channel episodes that show the falling bomb. That video may have the bomb edited out. My guess is a frame or two may have been removed.
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Might could be. I know most, at least, refused to even wear them. I cant ever remember a photo of a jap pilot parachuting.
You're right, I don't ever remember seeing any Japanese chutes myself.
Also, have to remember that the Japanese planes lacked armor and other stuff. Our 50 cal bullets would rip right through most Japanese planes. The Japanese planes were designed for light weight and turning.
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You're right, I don't ever remember seeing any Japanese chutes myself.
Also, have to remember that the Japanese planes lacked armor and other stuff. Our 50 cal bullets would rip right through most Japanese planes. The Japanese planes were designed for light weight and turning.
You can't be that broad in the subject. There is a lot more detail to it than that.
The Ki-84, for example, has about as much armor as a P-51D, whereas the A6M2 has no protection at all. The H8K2 has more armor than a B-17G.
As has been referenced repeatedly in this very thread, the Japanese had parachutes and used them.
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I remember seeing German gun cam footage as they were pinging a B-17 with cannons and you could see chunks flying off the 17 with no re-action from either the ball or tail gunners....War is Hell..
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This a quote I often think on, in relation to those of us who play at war as a hobby:
"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all Hell."
-William Tecumseh Sherman
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Might could be. I know most, at least, refused to even wear them. I cant ever remember a photo of a jap pilot parachuting.
Some chose either not to wear parachutes or not use them for the reasons Shifty already mentioned. It was very common for IJN and IJAF pilots not to use them because of two major factors, it restricted movement in the cockpit during combat and a lot of the times the Japanese pilots were flying over or near enemy bases and being captured was not an option for them.
In the IJN (and probably in the IJAF as well), every pilot was given a parachute and urged, though not ordered to wear them. In some cases, base commanders made the decision and ordered their pilots to wear parachutes.
This is a comment about the use of parachutes in the IJN by Saburō Sakai.
In 1942, none of our fighter planes carried pilot armor, nor did the Zeros have self-sealing fuel tanks, as did the American planes. As the enemy pilots soon discovered, a burst of their 50-caliber bullets into the fuel tanks of a Zero caused it to explode violently in flames. Despite this, in those days not one of our pilots flew with parachutes. This has been misinterpreted in the West as proof that our leaders were disdainful of our lives, that all Japanese pilots were expendable and regarded as pawns rather than human beings. This was far from the truth. Every man was assigned a parachute; the decision to fly without them was our own and not the result of orders from higher headquarters. Actually, we were urged, although not ordered, to wear the parachutes in combat. At some fields the base commander insisted that chutes be worn, and those men had no choice but to place the bulky packs in their planes. Often, however, they never fastened the straps, and used the chutes only as seat cushions.
We had little use for these parachutes, for the only purpose they served for us was to hamstring our cockpit movements in a battle. It was difficult to move our arms and legs when encumbered by chute straps. There was another, and equally compelling, reason for not carrying the chutes into combat. The majority of our battles were fought with enemy fighters over their own fields. It was out of the question to bail out over enemy territory, for such a move meant a willingness to be captured, and nowhere in the Japanese military code or in the traditional Bushido (Samurai code) could one find the distasteful words “Prisoner of War.” There were no prisoners. A man who did not return from combat was dead. No fighter pilot of any courage would ever permit himself to be captured by the enemy. It was completely unthinkable ...
This is an account of a US sailor onboard USS Montpelier during a Japanese raid near Bougainville, November 3,1943.
A few Japs parachuted when they were hit but a few sailors and Marines on the 20 mm. opened up on the ones in the chutes and when they hit the water they were nothing but a piece of meat cut to ribbons.
This was the first time I saw Jap pilots use parachutes. Someone said that the Japs don't use parachutes.
During the last months of the war when US fighters started to conduct increased fighter raids and sweeps over the Japanese homelands, a lot of US pilots reported Japanese pilots bailing out in their parachutes instead of engaging in combat. It's just an unsupported myth that most Japanese pilots didn't bail out.
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I remember seeing German gun cam footage as they were pinging a B-17 with cannons and you could see chunks flying off the 17 with no re-action from either the ball or tail gunners....War is Hell..
Odds are, based on the position of the ball turret in that film that the gunners may already have bailed or were sadly dead. To get out of the turret the ball turret gunner had to point the guns down so he could exit into the fuselage. Those guns are pointed straight down so he's most likely out both of the turret and the plane.
Nasty film to watch though.
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You're right, I don't ever remember seeing any Japanese chutes myself.
That is probably because their chutes were at their aircraft. There are photos everywhere of Japanese pilots wearing their parchute harness which attaches to their chute. Not to mentionthe majority
of Japanese Navy pilot pictures you see the guys are wearing the Japanese version of the Mae West. Why would they wear a life jacket but not a chute? Were they thinking.. The hell with it if the fall doesn't kill me I'll swim home?
Japanese Army pilots clearly in parachute harness.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4100/4856432492_7e82aa5274.jpg)
Japanese Navy pilots with parachute harness and life jackets.
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02076/japanese-pilots_2076694i.jpg)
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Japanese Army pilots clearly in parachute harness.
Here is a gunner with a parachute.
(http://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=234300&sid=d02fec31b5f476cf8651c026c2d1e145)
One of the most prized war booty an Allied soldier could get his hands on in the Pacific was a Japanese parachute because it was made with the finest silk at the time.
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I do believe , overall, that Allied leaders values the lives of their men more then Axis ones did. Most of all the Japs. Most of all the officers of the IJA, who treated their men as little better then dogs. Of all the military services of the time the IJA was a study in institutionalized brutality starting the day the men entered service until the day the day they would be ordered to die a useless death. Many Jap, German, and Soviet soldiers were not even nationals and little more then slaves who were forced to fight at threat of death from their masters. How much you think there own leadership gave a damn about them?
I'm not trying to start any argument here, but:
IMO you are discounting other nations cultural differences and applying your cultural view point to how they should have seen it.
I would agree with you in large re: what you stated about the Russians, but not in every sense. I disagree wholeheartedly regarding German matters and their pilots, however in some cases and at some points it may apply to the Wehrmacht and probably the Volksturm.
My area of study was in the European Theatre, so I can't speak from an informed position about the IEJ.
OP, thanks for the picture, it does inspire contemplation.
:salute
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I would agree with you in large re: what you stated about the Russians, but not in every sense. I disagree wholeheartedly regarding German matters and their pilots, however in some cases and at some points it may apply to the Wehrmacht and probably the Volksturm.
I didnt say anything about German pilots.
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Rich46yo,
You are right and you are wrong. You are right in a general sense, but you are wrong in how big you make the difference out to be. There was a large difference, no doubt, but you make it out to have been even larger than it was.
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I didnt say anything about German pilots.
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(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m248/bj229r/2012-07-29_17-28-25_587_zpscd854d48.jpg)
I had a day to spend in DC last summer, spent most of it wandering around Arlington. This grave marker struck me...all these kids died at once, in one plane (B25...B26? dunno) Tried googling some history, found an event in Italy of some note, have no idea if it was these guys
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(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m248/bj229r/2012-07-29_17-28-25_587_zpscd854d48.jpg)
I had a day to spend in DC last summer, spent most of it wandering around Arlington. This grave marker struck me...all these kids died at once, in one plane (B25...B26? dunno) Tried googling some history, found an event in Italy of some note, have no idea if it was these guys
If what you found mentioned Italy, then it wasn't the crew on the gravestone.
The crew was onboard B-24D-53-CO "Big Chief Cockeye" (Serial Number 42-40351) on a weather reconnaissance mission when contact was lost after they radioed a weather report. It was later found that the B-24 had crashed into a mountain on Ceram. All but three of the crew perished, the three that survived were captured and executed by the Japanese garrisoned on Ceram Island. Some of the crew, the ones not listed on the Arlington grave marker are buried in the Honolulu Cemetary.
(http://380th.org/HISTORY/PARTV/1-40/BigChiefCockeye_files/BigChi5.jpg)
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(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m248/bj229r/2012-07-29_17-28-25_587_zpscd854d48.jpg)
I had a day to spend in DC last summer, spent most of it wandering around Arlington. This grave marker struck me...all these kids died at once, in one plane (B25...B26? dunno) Tried googling some history, found an event in Italy of some note, have no idea if it was these guys
I believe what that means is those remains were co-mingled, and they were not able to separately ID them. When they were brought home they were interred together. As they didn't have DNA etc at the time, this was often a problem with crews that went down.
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Found this searching today (http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/560308-4/B-17+flamming_1)
(http://www.aviationspectator.com/files/images/Boeing-B-17-Flying-Fortress-091.preview.jpg)
Flak damage completely destroyed the nose section of this Boeing B-17G, a 398th Bomb Group aircraft flown by 1Lt. Lawrence M. Delancey over Cologne, Germany.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQSy4cRd4gk
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I believe what that means is those remains were co-mingled, and they were not able to separately ID them. When they were brought home they were interred together. As they didn't have DNA etc at the time, this was often a problem with crews that went down.
It seems the crew that were separately identified were the ones buried in Hawaii, the ones that were executed by the Japanese.
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Speaking of B17's, my great uncle was shot down over Merseberg Germany Nov 2nd 1944. This is somewhat of a famous photo as it appeared in several newspapers during the war:
(http://486th.org/Photos/AC1/Hit.jpg)
The link says it was hit by flak, but you can see bombs dropping and no flak bursts. Our family speculates that it was hit by a falling bomb.
http://486th.org/Photos/AC1/Hit.htm
That's him, back row on the far right. Ball turret gunner. He was 19. War is indeed hell.
(http://486th.org/Photos/CrewA/ParisCrew.jpg)
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I've always wondered about that crew. Thanks for putting a face on them. What a horrific image that is.
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If what you found mentioned Italy, then it wasn't the crew on the gravestone.
The crew was onboard B-24D-53-CO "Big Chief Cockeye" (Serial Number 42-40351) on a weather reconnaissance mission when contact was lost after they radioed a weather report. It was later found that the B-24 had crashed into a mountain on Ceram. All but three of the crew perished, the three that survived were captured and executed by the Japanese garrisoned on Ceram Island. Some of the crew, the ones not listed on the Arlington grave marker are buried in the Honolulu Cemetary.
(http://380th.org/HISTORY/PARTV/1-40/BigChiefCockeye_files/BigChi5.jpg)
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very cool, thanks