Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Midway on June 29, 2013, 09:28:54 AM
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"the twin-engined Messerschmitt Bf 110C long range Zerstörer ("Destroyer") was also expected to engage in air-to-air combat while escorting the Luftwaffe bomber fleet. Although the 110 was faster than the Hurricane and almost as fast as the Spitfire, its lack of manoeuvrability and acceleration meant that it was a failure as a long-range escort fighter."
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain
If the above is true, then why can our AH Bf110C, flown by JUGgler for example, out turn and beat a Spitfire? :headscratch:
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maybe you are being out piloted,did you ever think of that :rolleyes:
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It is verboten to post that kind of thing in here. The Luftwaffe fans will be in shortly to explain to you how the Bf110 was actually a great fighter that was crippled by Goering's close escort orders.
(This is revisionist pap that ignores its fate when facing Hurricanes and Spitfires before the close escort orders were issued)
Personally I'd expect a flight model revision to the Bf110s when they get redone, and like with the Hurricane it is unlikely be come out of it being as capable as it was before. Based on the AH1 Bf109E-4, Bf110C-4b, Hurricane Mk I and Spitfire Mk I one would have expected the Luftwaffe to focus development on the Bf110 and the RAF on the Hurricane resulting in Bf110K-4's facing Hurricane Mk XIVs rather than Bf109K-4's facing Spitfire Mk XIVs as actually happened. There are reasons they chose the Bf109 and Spitfire.
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maybe you are being out piloted,did you ever think of that :rolleyes:
Doubt that... as you should know. :ahand
Fact is that the 110c turns on a dime and can maneuver better than most anything else. You fight JUGgler in his 110c and you too will see. Without the 110c, JUGgler barely has a chance. It's the aeroplane in this case, not the pilot. :)
It just seems contradictory to the above description of the 110c.
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It is verboten to post that kind of thing in here. The Luftwaffe fans will be in shortly to explain to you how the Bf110 was actually a great fighter that was crippled by Goering's close escort orders.
(This is revisionist pap that ignores its fate when facing Hurricanes and Spitfires before the close escort orders were issued)
Heh. Too true.
- oldman
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"the twin-engined Messerschmitt Bf 110C long range Zerstörer ("Destroyer") was also expected to engage in air-to-air combat while escorting the Luftwaffe bomber fleet. Although the 110 was faster than the Hurricane and almost as fast as the Spitfire, its lack of manoeuvrability and acceleration meant that it was a failure as a long-range escort fighter."
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain
If the above is true, then why can our AH Bf110C, flown by JUGgler for example, out turn and beat a Spitfire? :headscratch:
Wikipedia :bhead
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:lol
I love how Midway whines, someone get him some cheese for Christ sake.
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I dont think the 110 is worth a damn as a fighter in anyones hands.
I Love flying it, and its very useful, but c'mon? If you get killed by one whilst in a agile fighter then you did something wrong. Not counting vulches. I felt the same way about the IL2/F3 whinging.
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Wikipedia :bhead
If you'd take the time to look at the citation in the wiki article... you'll see it's legitimate. :)
"^ Weal 1999, pp. 4748."
http://www.booksamillion.com/p/Messerschmitt-Bf-Zerstrer-Aces-World/John-Weal/9781855327535
Don't be so hasty as to disparage Wikipedia as a legitimate source of good information. :old:
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I dont think the 110 is worth a damn as a fighter in anyones hands.
I Love flying it, and its very useful, but c'mon? If you get killed by one whilst in a agile fighter then you did something wrong. Not counting vulches. I felt the same way about the IL2/F3 whinging.
You Sir, are wrong. Fight JUGgler... or some other pilot that knows the 110c... you'll be shocked and awed. :O
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The 190 is alleged to be more maneuverable than the 109, but the 109 out turns it. Given that the 110 rolls like a pile of poop, can't dive so well, and isn't very light at the controls....... I would say it isn't very maneuverable.
Turning isn't the only facet of maneuverability.
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The Bf 110 was never able to turn-fight with single engine a/c (unless very old ones). They were good in boom-and-zoom attacks and got many kills this way.
Göring's orders to fly close escort made them sitting ducks just like the bombers.
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The 190 is alleged to be more maneuverable than the 109, but the 109 out turns it. Given that the 110 rolls like a pile of poop, can't dive so well, and isn't very light at the controls....... I would say it isn't very maneuverable.
Turning isn't the only facet of maneuverability.
It rolls better than the Bf109E or Spitfire Mk I as I recall.
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You Sir, are wrong. Fight JUGgler... or some other pilot that knows the 110c... you'll be shocked and awed. :O
You are humping JUGgler's ankle now? what happen did bruv fly a 109?
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Logic isn't your strong point is it Midway :lol
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Turning isn't the only facet of maneuverability.
^ this! :aok
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Sure.....a spit VIII will blast along at 300mph turning better than a 110c but that big wing and tail come into thier own once the speeds drop a little.
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Sure.....a spit VIII will blast along at 300mph turning better than a 110c but that big wing and tail come into thier own once the speeds drop a little.
Spit I, not Spit VIII.
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Logic isn't your strong point is it Midway :lol
Huh? :headscratch:
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Huh? :headscratch:
Oh good grief. Isn't it obvious?!?!?!?!?
Since you seem slightly Anglophile consider the comments of another Englishman (albeit fictional):
Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however unlikely must be the truth.
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Oh good grief. Isn't it obvious?!?!?!?!?
Since you seem slightly Anglophile consider the comments of another Englishman (albeit fictional):
Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however unlikely must be the truth.
Quit confusing me. :rolleyes:
Fact is the Bf110c fights far better in Aces High than it ever could in RL, imho.
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Quit confusing me. :rolleyes:
Fact is the Bf110c fights far better in Aces High than it ever could in RL, imho.
:bhead It is pointless. I warned you were your road would take you, and now you start to see it. Now the other planes are over-modeled :rolleyes:
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Perk the 110C! :rofl
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Perk the 110C! :rofl
No, just fix it to be more like it's RL reputation... not a good turn fighter. :)
JUGgler should not be able to pwn in it. :old:
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No, just fix it to be more like it's RL reputation... not a good turn fighter. :)
JUGgler should not be able to pwn in it. :old:
Or we could try and fix you so you're more like real life, oh wait...
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Or we could try and fix you so you're more like real life, oh wait...
Must you disparage me in this thread too, Nrshida? :huh
This thread is about the Bf110c and it's seemingly unreal turning / fighting / maneuvering abilities. :bhead
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Or we could try and fix you so you're more like real life, oh wait...
That would imply going outside.
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Must you disparage me in this thread too, Nrshida? :huh
I'm not disparaging I'm observing.
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JUGgler should not be able to pwn in it. :old:
you were out flown get over it :ahand
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Must you disparage me in this thread too, Nrshida? :huh
This thread is about the Bf110c and it's seemingly unreal turning / fighting / maneuvering abilities. :bhead
Middy,
By chance did you look at any of the stats on the 110C? I think not because if you had you would find your answer.
The 110c with full flaps turns right inbetween the G2 and F4 109's,thats not too far off what the spits can do. I'm not surprized that Juggler can hand you yours in it because it has nothing to do with the plane but the tactics,and no I'm not talking a bout Jugglers tactics I'm talking about yours!
I've never had the privilege to fly with Juggler,well maybe I did as another name but that's another subject.However I have flown with you and tried to show you where you were making poor choices with your BFM. You, like a lot of newer players tend to turn nose down,I guess the speed makes you feel secure but if you understand the energy egg the best turns are done nose up,well the tightest turns.
The 110C is not to be taken lightly, when flown to it's strengths it can give almost any plane a run for the money. Now is this how a real 110C flies,I have no idea as I've never flown 1 and in RL you wouldn't risk doing many of the things we do daily in AH because we dont "DIE".
:salute
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like a lot of newer players tend to turn nose down,
He's crammed ten years worth of flying hours into the last two years.
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Middy,
By chance did you look at any of the stats on the 110C? I think not because if you had you would find your answer.
The 110c with full flaps turns right inbetween the G2 and F4 109's,thats not too far off what the spits can do. I'm not surprized that Juggler can hand you yours in it because it has nothing to do with the plane but the tactics,and no I'm not talking a bout Jugglers tactics I'm talking about yours!
I've never had the privilege to fly with Juggler,well maybe I did as another name but that's another subject.However I have flown with you and tried to show you where you were making poor choices with your BFM. You, like a lot of newer players tend to turn nose down,I guess the speed makes you feel secure but if you understand the energy egg the best turns are done nose up,well the tightest turns.
The 110C is not to be taken lightly, when flown to it's strengths it can give almost any plane a run for the money. Now is this how a real 110C flies,I have no idea as I've never flown 1 and in RL you wouldn't risk doing many of the things we do daily in AH because we dont "DIE".
:salute
:salute :rock
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Dastrdly was the best 110c stick in the game imho and could out fly most in anything else if 1v1. Also have to give him credit for flying 110 as sole ride for many years and often lone wolf style play instead of needing a squad as back up.
Some of best 1v1 fights I ever had in yak t were often against his 110c
Certainly miss players of that style and skill compared to endless hordes of uber rides today. Spit 8s esp included.
<S>...-Gixer
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Dasterly was one of the better 110c pilots ive ever seen, after turning with him a few times I refuse to fight a 110c that is anywhere above 10k since it will wear you down and run you off.
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Quit confusing me. :rolleyes:
Fact is the Bf110c fights far better in Aces High than it ever could in RL, imho.
No it doesn't nor do you have the data to prove otherwise.
ack-ack
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No it doesn't nor do you have the data to prove otherwise.
ack-ack
Read Gixer's post. Nuff said. :)
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Read Gixer's post. Nuff said. :)
What does Gixer's post have anything to do with proving your point? The fact is, if a Spitfire driver (any variant) gets out turned or out maneuvered by a Bf 110C/G, then the Spitfire wasn't as experienced as the Bf 110C/G driver or screwed up royally at some point in the fight.
Show some verifiable data that backs up your claim that the Bf 110C is some how over modeled, but I know you won't be able to and will side step the issue because facing the fact you were out flown by Juggler in your Spitfire just hurts your ego too much. Guys like you are a dime a dozen in this game, they get their arse handed back to them by a far superior player and you immediately cry 'plane over modeled!'.
ack-ack
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Everybody should just stop comparing AH to real life. WWII aerial warfare was nothing like the air-quake fights in the MA.
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Everybody should just stop comparing AH to real life. WWII aerial warfare was nothing like the air-quake fights in the MA.
Couldn't agree more. AH has about as much comparison to aerial warfare as angry birds on my girlfriends ipad.
facing the fact you were out flown by Juggler in your Spitfire just hurts your ego too much.
ack-ack
:lol
Even more so when it happens from the seat of any version spit.
<S>...-Gixer
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Spit I, not Spit VIII.
I don't believe the thread starter has yet flown the spit I.
He flies the spit VIII almost exclusively.
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Everybody should just stop comparing AH to real life. WWII aerial warfare was nothing like the air-quake fights in the MA.
But HTC tries to make it as real as it can get... with the flight model, that is. Fact is, the Bf110c shouldn't be as good against a Spitfire as it is, imho.
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I don't believe the thread starter has yet flown the spit I.
He flies the spit VIII almost exclusively.
I have flown the Spitfire MK I plenty. Downed three Lancs and an A20 in one sortie even. :ahand
Check before you speak so incorrectly. :)
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But HTC tries to make it as real as it can get... with the flight model, that is. Fact is, the Bf110c shouldn't be as good against a Spitfire as it is, imho.
Why do you say this? Do you know the corner speeds of both A/C? Do you know the lift and drag coefficients for both A/C? Do you have the rollrate figures at various speeds for both A/C? Unless the answer is yes to all these questions, you really have no idea how they compare.
However you could use badboys bootstrap calculator and have some clue as to where the flight envelopes over lap and where 1 A/c might have an advantage over the other. Until then,IMHO your humble opinion doesn't amount to much.
Incase you're wondering why I'm taking this so personal,I fly the 110c a fair bit,I like to use it in training so I think I understand how it flies. One thing you're not considering is the flaps on the 110,they deploy about 40mph before the spit can even drop theirs,if it's even worth doing, and the 110 can gain angles at that speed range. I bet Juggler went up and roll over and killed you from the top down.
:salute
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Spit VIII in AH eats the Bf110C-4b for lunch, just maybe not in a horizontal turn fight.
That said, I do think the Bf110s are going to come off worse than they are when they get updated, just like the Hurricanes did.
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Unless the answer is yes to all these questions, you really have no idea how they compare.
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This is true.
I only reference the citation in wiki and my awe of what JUGgler did to me on multiple occasions. The wiki observation does not seem to reconcile with Gixer's comment or my observation of JUGgler's gymnastics. Both being facts,wiki based on real pilots views at the time and my encounter and Gixer's observation. JUGlgler likes to brag about how he likes to surprise Spitfires with the 110c. How can that be realistic? :headscratch:
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Spit VIII in AH eats the Bf110C-4b for lunch, just maybe not in a horizontal turn fight.
That said, I do think the Bf110s are going to come off worse than they are when they get updated, just like the Hurricanes did.
Hurricane should of been updated sooner, as the 110s need to be. However as far as 110s go it goes back to the basic logic - I've flown all planes in the BOB scenario at least twice, I've landed 9 in a Hurricane and 9 in a 109, cant remember when did in 110s but I remember it was a great sortie. It comes down to how much a pilot knows and whether he can fly the plane to its absolute best. Someone like midway won't ever understand since he sticks to one or two key moves in one airframe. You can't pull the same moves in a Spit 1 for example, plus your SA and knowledge of what other aircraft perform counts as well.
Its the text book learning curve some will fail and continue to fail as Midway has, and if you fail in a Spit 8 vs a 110c, then you seriously need to reconsider learning new grounds.
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I've flown all planes in the BOB scenario at least twice
In AvA the BoB setup runs frequently, so the 1940 plane set is well known. Back in AHI the 110C ruled the air. With the modified flight model in AH2 it lost enough of its prior advantage that it no longer was the fighter of choice for the Luftwaffe pilots. Nonetheless, it is still not the sitting duck that every BoB account I've ever seen portrayed it to be. I suspect that what Morfiend said has something to do with this: In AH we use flaps routinely in a dogfight, whereas in the war that was quite rare (except for some few planes equipped with combat flaps, like the 51).
- oldman
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In AvA the BoB setup runs frequently, so the 1940 plane set is well known. Back in AHI the 110C ruled the air. With the modified flight model in AH2 it lost enough of its prior advantage that it no longer was the fighter of choice for the Luftwaffe pilots. Nonetheless, it is still not the sitting duck that every BoB account I've ever seen portrayed it to be. I suspect that what Morfiend said has something to do with this: In AH we use flaps routinely in a dogfight, whereas in the war that was quite rare (except for some few planes equipped with combat flaps, like the 51).
- oldman
I don't recall ever dropping flaps in scenarios, in fact I cannot even recall the last scenario I did. I mainly keeping my alt and speed and pushing the fight below me works best and always has. Biggest thing I run into is SA gets torn to shreds when you run into 15+ enemy bandits, secondly pilots with lack of high alt experience have a tendency to dive if not nose down during turns giving up alt if not going to the deck. Fights usually end up two ways that Ive seen - either you dive out to the deck, or lose your squad in a blink of an eye - sometimes first moves do that in a fight.
Here's a prime example, was at 20k in an SBD during the last FSO, we were ordered to fight if we wanted, or continue to the target, instead we got bounced - I turned nose on and scuffled with two zeros that dove to the deck, by time i realized what happened, I lost track of the entire fight and my squad.
I proceeded to the target to drop my bomb, and found 3-4 zeros on the deck tangling with some F4F's and SBDs, shot them down and went home. A few SBD pilots were known to dogfight zeros, but where the zero had no armor and great pilots - I believe the 110C is simply overly protrayed in Aces High. There is a major difference between the SBD and 110, however in almost all conditions, veteran pilots and aces who flew the 110C will tell you its simply outclassed in every which way at the battle of britain.
Ironic as the 110 pilots were suppose to be the best of the best in the Luftwaffe as well.
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How can that be realistic? :headscratch:
You have yet to show anything they did was unrealistic that would indicate the Bf110C is over modeled.
ack-ack
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You have yet to show anything they did was unrealistic that would indicate the Bf110C is over modeled.
ack-ack
I think Midway is stuck in my shoes when I was still an idiot learner many years ago, he failed to learn from his mistakes as I did when I faced you in a P38 many times - I'd try to reverse only to have you buzzsaw a wing off and I do and remember such angry words spewed at ya.
Eventually I learned, something he needs to do as well.
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In AvA the BoB setup runs frequently, so the 1940 plane set is well known. Back in AHI the 110C ruled the air. With the modified flight model in AH2 it lost enough of its prior advantage that it no longer was the fighter of choice for the Luftwaffe pilots. Nonetheless, it is still not the sitting duck that every BoB account I've ever seen portrayed it to be. I suspect that what Morfiend said has something to do with this: In AH we use flaps routinely in a dogfight, whereas in the war that was quite rare (except for some few planes equipped with combat flaps, like the 51).
- oldman
Oldman! :aok
Yes the 110c lost abit when the airflow code changed but it also gained abit in the flaps department and this I think make the difference. IIRC the flaps in the 110 and 109 are similar and as you said they weren't really made as a combat flap but in Aces High we all regularly use flaps,which is as you said not likely done often in RL.
I am suspect for 1 part of the flight envelope and that's in the high speed realm,it doesn't seem to suffer from the control issues that the 109 series has and I can only wonder if this is correct or not. I am willing to except HTC take on the flight models,unless I see concrete evidence to show otherwise. And a wiki citation just doesn't cut it in my books.
:salute
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Middy,
You, like a lot of newer players tend to turn nose down,I guess the speed makes you feel secure but if you understand the energy egg the best turns are done nose up,well the tightest turns.
I notice that too Midway. Not only does the turning circle get bigger when you are nose down but more importantly you're giving up altitude. I see players do this a lot. Instead of flat turning they end up doing a spiral dive, it's as if they expect you to chase them down the spiral. And they find themselves low and disadvantaged when you don't.
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I notice that too Midway. Not only does the turning circle get bigger when you are nose down but more importantly you're giving up altitude. I see players do this a lot. Instead of flat turning they end up doing a spiral dive, it's as if they expect you to chase them down the spiral. And they find themselves low and disadvantaged when you don't.
:salute
:cheers:
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Ahhh Dastardly in the 110C......good times.....great fights
:aok
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It is worth noting that the AH 110C has C3 fueled DB601P engines and didn't see service until very late in the Battle of Britain. So it is not really representative of the early BoB battles where it served as a pure day fighter. It is also worth mentioning that the 110C held its own against the Hurricane. Against the Spitfire however, it suffered a four to one loss rate, at least.
That said... Anyone who loses a 1-on-1 against a 110 in any mark of Spitfire has no one to blame but himself.
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Doubt that... as you should know. :ahand
Fact is that the 110c turns on a dime and can maneuver better than most anything else. You fight JUGgler in his 110c and you too will see. Without the 110c, JUGgler barely has a chance. It's the aeroplane in this case, not the pilot. :)
It just seems contradictory to the above description of the 110c.
Umm, I believe I worked you over more often with the G2 :rock
Mid, if I used any spit and you used a 110, umm, I would destroy you !
Losing to the 110 while using any spit is purely "self imolation" in other words, it's your fault :aok
Oh, be quiet now!
JUGgler
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Umm, I believe I worked you over more often with the G2 :rock
Mid, if I used any spit and you used a 110, umm, I would destroy you !
Losing to the 110 while using any spit is purely "self imolation" in other words, it's your fault :aok
Oh, be quiet now!
JUGgler
I do not recall you working me over in a G2, other than the :huh HO one time... but that's another story. :)
I am probably wrong about the 110c, but I couldn't reconcile your fighting in the 110c vs my Spitfire. You know that the gymnastics you do in it surprises Spitfires very often... I've heard you say it more than once... and given its RL reputation as a poor maneuvering fighter... well... nuff said. :bhead
I may have learned some things in this thread... we will see if you show your 110c again as to results. My nose will be up prominently upon any encounter with a 110c, you can be sure of that. :joystick:
I still can't reconcile the AH Bf 110c from its real life reputation, but have no more facts to offer. :headscratch:
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<-- Flew the 110 as a fighter before it was cool. Still... whenever i faced a Spit-driver that knew what he was doing I invariably lost. Luckily they are few and far between.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/GSdefender%2301.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/GSsaves42baltic%2301.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/GSspitkill%2301.jpg)
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<-- Flew the 110 as a fighter before it was cool. Still... whenever i faced a Spit-driver that knew what he was doing I invariably lost. Luckily they are few and far between.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/GSdefender%2301.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/GSsaves42baltic%2301.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/GSspitkill%2301.jpg)
:aok
:salute :rock
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I do not recall you working me over in a G2, other than the :huh HO one time... but that's another story. :)
That's because in order to protect your fragile glass palace of uberness you employ selective memory.
There was a marvelous opportunity to learn through this incident obscured to you by your own bootstrapping bragging and self delusion.
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Middy does have a point though,
No way the 110c should even come close to a hurri or spit 1 in a knife fight. Yes it could do well at BnZ but in AH's perfect world it really does shine brighter than it should IMO!
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No way the 110c should even come close to a hurri or spit 1 in a knife fight. Yes it could do well at BnZ but in AH's perfect world it really does shine brighter than it should IMO!
:lol
Yes but Spits are super novas in AH's in-perfect world and shine far brighter than anything else, especially the Spit8 and 16. True it's the stick not the plane, but Spits are easy mode and will allow you to make mistakes and still get away with the win.
Plus I see HT made the Spit 14 unperked... Just one the MA needed. :rolleyes:
<S>...-Gixer
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The History doesn't lie in this argument.
237 went into the battle 223 destroyed or lost. Withdrawn from fighter escort duties because of the turkey shoot.
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The History doesn't lie in this argument.
237 went into the battle 223 destroyed or lost. Withdrawn from fighter escort duties because of the turkey shoot.
Please don't make comparisons from events in history to air quake with cartoon planes. Just embarrassing, like I said before AH is about as relevant to WW2 as Angry Birds on my girlfriends ipad.
<S>...-Gixer
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It is verboten to post that kind of thing in here. The Luftwaffe fans will be in shortly to explain to you how the Bf110 was actually a great fighter that was crippled by Goering's close escort orders.
(This is revisionist pap that ignores its fate when facing Hurricanes and Spitfires before the close escort orders were issued)
Personally I'd expect a flight model revision to the Bf110s when they get redone, and like with the Hurricane it is unlikely be come out of it being as capable as it was before. Based on the AH1 Bf109E-4, Bf110C-4b, Hurricane Mk I and Spitfire Mk I one would have expected the Luftwaffe to focus development on the Bf110 and the RAF on the Hurricane resulting in Bf110K-4's facing Hurricane Mk XIVs rather than Bf109K-4's facing Spitfire Mk XIVs as actually happened. There are reasons they chose the Bf109 and Spitfire.
What I find funny is your vigor in defending your "pet planes" and telling how anyone questioning the flight models of these planes need proof to back their arguments up (which of course is very true) but at the same time you consider yourself completely able to make casual comments on other planes' flight models without submitting any proof non what so ever.
That's 100% certified hypocrisy right there.
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Middy does have a point though,
No way the 110c should even come close to a hurri or spit 1 in a knife fight. Yes it could do well at BnZ but in AH's perfect world it really does shine brighter than it should IMO!
Fear the super-uber Bf-110 :lol
Seriously dude, youre in a fricken spitfire, yet whining that the mighty Bf-110c is too über?
Any more advantage you need? What a poor sport retard.
By the way: there is NO WAY a 110c can outturn a spit. Middy was utterly owned by a far superior pilot flying a much lesser aircraft, so hes crying that the IMPOSSIBRU Bf-110C is waaay to über.
What a poor sport retard again.
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There are so many other factors when considering how X plane can defeat Y plane in a duel. On paper X plane is vastly inferior to Y yet while in a duel the superior plane is bested. Sure, piloting "skill" and more so experience will go a long way in dictating who wins, but not always.
Speed, angle of shot, SOP tactics (biggest factor, imo), ACM's, type of weapons used (.30 cal MG's vs 20mm cannons, etc), roll rate, turn rate, turn radius, visibility, acceleration, etc, etc. All it takes is for the inferior plane to get a shot on the better plane and it could be over in a matter of seconds.
The biggest thing to remember is that Aces High allows for the models to be flown and a place for the models to be flown in a virtual word, AND that it is not really representative to the real deal simply due to all the factors not able to be brought to the table in Aces High. If a Hurricane Mk I and a 110C met at 12,000 over the English channel a few things need to be considered right from the get go BEFORE the planes ever engage. A: what is the SOP for each plane? Does the Lufty have direct orders to NOT get in to a turn fight? Does he have orders to keep speeds above 250 TAS? Does the RAF pilot have orders to NOT make more than 2 attack passes? Etc, etc. B: Fuel range? Can either plane stick around and actually duke it out or can they each be on station for 5 mins before they have to RTB? C: What about the speeds in which each plane engages? If the Hurricane Mk I is at 200 TAS (think basic patrol) while the 110C begins the fight co-alt at 300 TAS (he was inbound to an area for a search and destroy mission), the odds are in the favor of the 110C for white awhile, imo. Etc, etc. If I were that Luft pilot I sure as heck wouldn't get slow and low vs any fighter. Speed is my life. And not all engagements ended in a win/loss between the 2 planes.
So arguments like these are a bit moot, really. While the "X vs Y" argument is able to be had while going over the charts, etc, once in the air there are many things that simply cant be modeled nor replicated. Oh, and don't forget that 1 major human factor not able to be modeled: the "life and/or death" variable. In AH we can simply re-up. In the real deal it was a very real danger. If you're in a Hurricane Mk I and you see tracers coming from a 110C's front guns I'd be willing to be the bravado you'd have in Aces High would be non-existent in the real deal.
Few things are absolute. The odds of 2 planes meeting at co-alt with equal E and equally "skilled" pilots are so very slim.
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What I find funny is your vigor in defending your "pet planes" and telling how anyone questioning the flight models of these planes need proof to back their arguments up (which of course is very true) but at the same time you consider yourself completely able to make casual comments on other planes' flight models without submitting any proof non what so ever.
That's 100% certified hypocrisy right there.
???
No idea what you're talking about. My "pet" plane is probably the Mossie, but I've never advocated for it to perform better than it should. When somebody said it should do 375 on the deck post a pilot's claim as a source I countered that by posting DH data saying some air speed indicators showed a speed ~20mph too high in response to those pilot claims.
The Hurricane and Bf110 have both significantly mismatched their historical performances and pilot comments. Per one modern pilot, contrasting the roll rate of the jet fighter he flew and the Hurricane he flew gave a roll rate for the Hurricane a full 50% slower than the AH1 Hurricane. Commentaries from pilots during the war praise the Spitfire I's responsiveness compared to the Hurricane and the Hurricane's stability as a gun platform, pretty much the exact opposite of the Spitfire and Hurricane I in AH1. The fact that the Bf110C-4b was the Luftwaffe player's mount of choice in BoB scenarios in AH1, over the Bf109E-4, in direct contradiction to historical capabilities.
HTC did, in fact, reduce the responsiveness of the Hurricanes when they were updated to AH2 standards. If that will happen with the Bf110s remains to be seen, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. Will it be by a massive amount? No, of course not, the Bf110 is not a high wing loading plane like the Me410, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that it is a bit more sluggish to respond after it is updated.
As to the OP's Spit VIII being out turned by a Bf110C-4b, that is unlikely to change and is a reflection on his bad tactics rather than the Bf110C-4b.
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The reality of things is that the 110s turn very small circles with full flaps. There's no doubt in my mind that their flaps are too effective. I can't think of another type that gets the same reduction in turn radius for flap use.
That said, while both 110s can turn small circles, they do so very slowly. With no E, there's no ability to fight in the vertical effectively with... Easy to defeat, if you are smart enough to avoid the trap of trying to match their turning circle.
Midway, the SpitVIII is a slightly better knife fighter than the SpitXVI, simply because it is more stable at the limit. Both should make short work of a 110C, regardless of who is flying it. You can engage and disengage at will. You can utterly own the vertical. Your acceleration is vastly better. Of course, none of that will help you if you burn down all of your advantage just to engage in a level turning fight. Even then, you bear off, unload (accelerate), reverse and re-engage with a substantial E advantage. Manage your energy, bleed off the 110's with slashing attacks, then kill it at your leisure.
The most important rule of air combat is not to fight the way the enemy fights best. A 110C cannot out-turn a SpitVIII without getting flaps out. To get flaps out, the 110C must get below 200 mph. Simple, easy no-brainer. JUGgler lives for the overshoot and he's a smart pilot. He'll go vertical, dump flaps, and roll out for a shot as you whiz by. Don't fall for it. If you do, JUGgler will not likely miss his shot.
If you lose, it's not because the 110C is especially uber, it's because the pilot flew to his plane's strengths and you allowed it.
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Middy does have a point though,
No way the 110c should even come close to a hurri or spit 1 in a knife fight. Yes it could do well at BnZ but in AH's perfect world it really does shine brighter than it should IMO!
:aok :rock
:D
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People's opinion on the 110C seems to be too much based on the experiences in the Battle of Britain. During the battle of France the 110 acquitted itself well against the Hurricane. Also after the BoB in the Med and Africa the 110 did well against the Hurri; Pat Pattle, indisputably one of the RAF's greatest aces, was killed by a 110 while flying a Hurricane during the Greek campaign in 1941. People have a tendency to overlook the enormous tactical advantage the RAF enjoyed during the BoB. The Hurris and Spits were directed by the best air defense command network in the world at the time and they could pick and choose their fights almost at will. The Germans were flying blind.
Anyone who have suffered a period without DAR in the MA knows how much of a force multiplier C3 is.
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The Hurris in the BoF were very different animals than the Hurris in the BoB.
In addition I've read many an account of how easy a Spit pilot found it to turn the tables on a Bf110 that started as the attacker. While we don't know the relative skill levels of those pilots we do know that the Luftwaffe, thanks to Goering, placed better than average pilots in the Bf110s and the RAF was relatively inexperienced before the BoB.
I agree that you can read too much into things from the BoB, but you can also read too little and it seems to me that the Luftwaffe fans always try to say the BoB is meaningless. The Bf109E-4 did fine in the BoB, the Bf110C-4 did not, even before the close escort orders were issued, and in AH the Bf110C-4 is largely superior to the Bf109E-4.
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Why do you say this? Do you know the corner speeds of both A/C? Do you know the lift and drag coefficients for both A/C? Do you have the rollrate figures at various speeds for both A/C? Unless the answer is yes to all these questions, you really have no idea how they compare
Trust him he dose, he watched something on the history channel and then saw it on wikipedia.
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Karnak.
Again our 110C has uprated 601P engines, so it is not really representative of a BoB 110C, but a very late 1940/early 1941 110C-4b. It has more than 300 hp more than a 601B engined 110C. It performs like a 1941 110C-7.
Edit: Fixed my brain fart when calculating the hp increase...
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Karnak.
Again our 110C has uprated 601P engines, so it is not really representative of a BoB 110C, but a very late 1940/early 1941 110C-4b. It has more than 500 hp more than a 601B engined 110C. It performs like a 1941 110C-7.
Yeah, I know. Only about 20 of them were built as I recall. It would be nice to have a true Bf110C-4.
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There were more, but still less than a hundred. Essentially all C-4b were converted to C-7 in early 1941.
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When HTC overhauls the 110 series I hope they add more variants. It would be nice to have:
Early BoB C-4
Late BoB C-4b
1941 C-7 for Barbarossa
1941 E-3 for Barbarossa
late 1941/42 F-2 (I really want this one)
1943 G-2 with more ord/gun options
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When HTC overhauls the 110 series I hope they add more variants. It would be nice to have:
Early BoB C-4
Late BoB C-4b
1941 C-7 for Barbarossa
1941 E-3 for Barbarossa
late 1941/42 F-2 (I really want this one)
1943 G-2 with more ord/gun options
That is a more granularity that we're likely to get, more than any other aircraft has, even the Bf109 and Spitfire. Seeing as we lack the Spitfire Mk II or Bf109E-7 for the late BoB I think the Bf109C-4b can be dispensed with.
Proposal:
Bf110C-4: BoB
Bf110C-7: Barbarossa
Bf110F-2: For GScholz and 1941/42
Bf110G-2 with more options: More options are always better
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That is a more granularity that we're likely to get, more than any other aircraft has, even the Bf109 and Spitfire. Seeing as we lack the Spitfire Mk II or Bf109E-7 for the late BoB I think the Bf109C-4b can be dispensed with.
Proposal:
Bf110C-4: BoB
Bf110C-7: Barbarossa
Bf110F-2: For GScholz and 1941/42
Bf110G-2 with more options: More options are always better
Not to mention 190A3, and one of the G's(G5??) :bolt:
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That is a more granularity that we're likely to get, more than any other aircraft has, even the Bf109 and Spitfire. Seeing as we lack the Spitfire Mk II or Bf109E-7 for the late BoB I think the Bf109C-4b can be dispensed with.
Proposal:
Bf110C-4: BoB
Bf110C-7: Barbarossa
Bf110F-2: For GScholz and 1941/42
Bf110G-2 with more options: More options are always better
I could live with that ;)
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Seeing as we lack the Spitfire Mk II or Bf109E-7 for the late BoB I think the Bf109C-4b can be dispensed with.
I'd rather add the Spit2 and E-7 ;) It's not as if they need to make a different 3D models.
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:aok :rock
:D
Midway, I'm gonna try and teach you something here!
Almost every single engagement in AH follows the same path, the same manouvres and same goals. We all know if all things equal "A" should defeat "B" on a mathematical basis, IE: me is a spit 16 will beat me in a JUG.
There are basically 3 levels "as I see it" of players in AH.
The 1st being the most numerous and highest percentage are basically new to compitent. These I would guess populate AH in the 80 percentile. In this group there are every level from terrible to very very good.
The 2nd level comprising about 10% those who honestly have trancended from the 80% and at times can be unbelievable able. These are the folks who have achieved the next level of understanding and control. These folks are usually quite aggressive and to come across them can be quite shocking. Sometimes these folks show a tendency to "blind aggressiveness" placing themselves "consistantly in losing situations, albeit at times winning them in spectacular form, these type of victories feed them and kind of motivates even more disadvantaged encounters to feed their rising egos that are in a race with their rising skill. These folks' ego is slightly larger than their ability, but make no mistake "they are able".
The 3rd level is populated by the likes of Grizz, Bruv, Skyrock, Kazaa, Kappa, Soulyss, Delirium, Bighorn, Dedalos, Levi, Suns, Stang, AKAK, WetRat, TonyJoey etc etc, many many more I fail to remember, sorry. But these folks have a significant understanding of the game quite beyond the 2nd level crowd. They usually have shed their 2nd level ego and are now quite pragmatic about the game. These guys don't fall for tricks, they dot their Is and cross their Ts consistantly. The 2nd level folks can beat these guys once in a while, but not consistantly. These guys are the ones that frustrate you and never never fall for the "magic". Ironically to beat them means you must play their game and beat them at their game, cause their game is ultimately the best and most correct game. I learned this lesson when I started dueling Grizz and Bighorn. I just couldn't get them to fall for any trick or misdirection only when I tried to emulate their style did I have any success against them and only rarely, in other words the best chance I had against them was to fight like them :aok Also almost to the man, these guys are NOT braggards <-- this comes with experience.
I bring this up to try and show you where I think you are or were when I played. I think you are in transition from 1 to 2. I also think your primarily "sticking to one ride" has slowed your progress. I doubt anyone here would deny your ability in the spit, but you short change yourself by not moving away from it and is one of the reasons you fail against the "mighty 110" <- :rofl :rofl
Now lets get down to the 110 spitfire showdown. My 110 never beat your spit, I never out turned your spit. I OWNED your mind :t. There is 1 consistancy I've found in 1st level players and it can be manifested in almost any situation, that being "over confidence in plane disparity", meaning if someone thinks they are in a better ride, they are prone to over confidence, this flaw can and is manipulated by those who know it. Before I stopped playing I would say I was trying to transition from level 2 to level 3, The phsycology of the game was very interesting to me. I found thru the type of plane I chose and through small changes in flight characteristics ie merge, type of reversal etc I could foment over confidence in my opponent and this I used against them (you). You see what you are saying in this thread proves that you still lack a fundamental understanding of "what could happen" compaired to what "should happen". Your over confidence in your plane and your ability in said plane is your undoing. Your inability to "close the gap with your heros shows clearly where you are in this triad of levels. When I played I took on all comers no matter what they were or how many there were, but it wasn't blind aggressiveness, I knew if I was in a JUG and merged with 4 spitfires there was only one advantage I had and it was significant. I knew all those spittys were sure I was nothing but cannon fodder and this was my advantage. If the fight ended with me in the tower yet I had eaten 1 or 2 spits, lol who ultimately was victorious?
There is sooo much to this game, if you think no one can get in your head thru it than you will never advance further than where you are now.
Change your ride and have fun. The #s on the stats page mean very little unless you have found a way to fight yourself in the same ride, same alt and same speed :aok
110>twit16 :neener:
JUGgler
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:confused:
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I'm level one!!! :banana: :banana: :rock
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39 C-7 were built, four by Gothaer Waggonfabrik and 35 by MIAG. Basically bomb-enabled C-4 with 601P engines and capable of carrying two 500kg bombs.
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New built perhaps. The earlier C models were converted to C-7. In January 1941 the Luftwaffe had about 150 bf 110s with 601P engines. The Es would later be converted to Fs.
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That why I used built, not converted. Many of those 601P-equipped Bf 110 were also the C-5 recons as they both needed speed and alt performance for risky recon missions.
I have not heard about E->F conversion by just exchanging the engines, due to the cooling system change this may have been some more work.
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Who: It is not :confused:
It is: REREAD.
There is so much useful information given to you here. Open your eyes/ears/mind, and close your mouth. Seriously, I'm not trying to be mean to you when I say that. It's just the old saying, you can't hear/listen when you're talking.
Morfiend, others and even your nemesis here have attempted to help you, why I'm not sure, after all I'm sure they've (as was noted) tried before. Are you still turning nose down?...
Anyhow thanks for the info gentlemen, I'm going to reread, and then reread again.
Very useful to me
Big :salute
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I guess I should have chosen my words slightly differently but...
???
No idea what you're talking about.
Saying "pet" planes I guess I should worded it better. But you've very quickly told people question the flight models of the Spits to get proof that anything is wrong (and rightly so) but here you consider that its ok to cast doubts on the 110 fm based on operational history without any kind of discussion regarding the physics itself.
The fact that the Bf110C-4b was the Luftwaffe player's mount of choice in BoB scenarios in AH1, over the Bf109E-4, in direct contradiction to historical capabilities.
Well I could easily chalck that to the fact that 110 rarely enjoyed the intiative in the engagements they got it due to the way they were used in BoB, and this would go into "a yes-no yes-no" very quickly. All I'm going to say though that there are several things that can affect on relative performance AH vs. real life and that the best way to start find out if something is wrong is doing testing the with the AH example of a plane and comparing it to the real life data instead of operational history and pilot anecdotes. For example talking about the operational enviroment, Id say Mosquito wouldn't be quite as celebrated combat aircraft as it is today if it would have had to go against 8th AF escort fighters and bombers as a German heavy fighter while on the other hand Me410 would have a lot better reputation if would have been flown by the Allies.
HTC did, in fact, reduce the responsiveness of the Hurricanes when they were updated to AH2 standards. If that will happen with the Bf110s remains to be seen, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
Yes they did. And if they change the flight model of the 110s I won't be surprised either given that they have already updated several flight models along with the 3d-models. I'm not saying there can't be anything wrong with the 110 flight models. I'm saying that if some claims that something is wrong they should define what they think is wrong and prove it with testing against data.
My previous post came out a bit too harsh and I'm sorry for that but the point of it remains the same.
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Well written, Jug.
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Why is it that a A20 with a load of bombs can out turn a fighter? Bad modeling. This is a good game but it could be better.
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Why is it that a A20 with a load of bombs can out turn a fighter?
Because the fighter pilot sucks.
No, that's not just a smartass reply. A fully loaded A-20 has a very mediocre turn radius and turn rate, most fighters do much better (not to speak of power/ acceleration). If the A-20 outturns and shoots down a fighter, the fighter pilot messed it up. (Yes, I have also messed it up more than once and fell to the A-20 ;) )
Planes have their strengths and limitations. But it depends on the pilot to exploit the potential performance. I have flatly outturned Spitfires and Ki-84s in my Ta-152, but that doesn't mean the Ta 152 "outturns a Spit". I outturned the enemy pilot, who was not able to utilize the maximum turning performance of his plane. If flown to the performance limit, both planes go circles around the TA 152.
A competently flown A-20, in a light configuration can surprise the unsuspecting, average fighter pilot, outfly and shoot him down. But you can only take it so far.
If you suspect "bad modeling", I'm afraid you will have to present your case with more substance, i.e. technical details and actual numbers. (By the way, turn radius and turn rates in game can be objectively tested and compared)
:salute
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all very good points for the removal of the 110-C4B and adding of extra variants.
Nice write up juggler, if Midway understands this concept he will be even more of a pest to the wider AH community.
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I think I am at the mezzanine level. I love your analogy Juggler. I'll try the escalator but I think the stairs are more realistic for me. Lol. I love this game.
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NEWS FLASH !!!!
The BKs promoted me to LEVEL 4 last night!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:
Stang was demoted to Level Midway :O
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There's a 4th level, Juggler. Those that can do it in nearly any plane in the set. There's only a tiny percentage that can get into any fighter/attack plane and keep the skill level up without missing a beat.
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Photographic proof of the over-modeled 110C out maneuvering a Spit :
(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/AH2%20screenshots/110-27.png~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/AH2%20screenshots/110-27.png.html)
It just can't happen!!! Fix the game!!! ;)
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Photographic proof of the over-modeled 110C out maneuvering a Spit :
(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/AH2%20screenshots/110-27.png~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/AH2%20screenshots/110-27.png.html)
It just can't happen!!! Fix the game!!! ;)
I think the expression on the Spitfire's face says it all.
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:rofl
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if Midway understands this concept he will be even more of a pest to the wider AH community.
He's not a pest because of his flying Bruv.
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Why is it that a A20 with a load of bombs can out turn a fighter? Bad modeling. This is a good game but it could be better.
An A-20 with a full internal and external load of bombs cannot out turn or out maneuver a fighter. If a heavily loaded A-20 out maneuvered you, instead of blaming the flight model, maybe you should review the film and look for the part where you screwed up and learn from your mistake.
ack-ack
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Anyone complaining that some aircraft is too dominant should do two things. 1: Contemplate why, if it is so dominant, there aren't as many in the air as Spits, La-7's, P-51's, etc. 2: Fly that aircraft around a bit to see for yourself.
If you don't do 1 and 2, you come off sounding foolish.
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Why is it that a A20 with a load of bombs can out turn a fighter?
It can't.
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(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/battle_britain_2006/pics/frame4/008_kill.jpg)
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Why does Who always whine about loosing to the top 20% while he bangs his own two gongs over slaughtering the 80% as justification for membership to the 20%? You don't become a 20% with your mouth. Learning from your mistakes takes place north of the mouth and gongs. Unless he simply enjoys opportunities to sling stuff from farther south and see who shows up for dinner.
If Who really wants to be humiliated by a 110C he should duel stang. Stang destroyed an old 56th fighter sweep years ago with his 110C. There were 4 of us in D40 and he was flying slow circles near the deck waiting for us. We all thought we were bad because we could eat spits in our D40.
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I don't think the C4B should be removed from the game, it's a hot rod (maybe should be perked in the MWA), and to add more varients of the 110C would highlight just how hot it was, but would not make the 110C lineup as a whole any more desireable to players without the C4B.
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There is little difference between the C-4 and the C-4b. The C-4b was modified to carry two bombs on a centerline hardpoint. It was used by Erpro 210 fighter-bomber testing unit during the BoB. The problem with the AH C-4b is that it's really a post-BoB version with uprated engines. Performance wise it is a 1941 C-7.
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Anyone complaining that some aircraft is too dominant should do two things. 1: Contemplate why, if it is so dominant, there aren't as many in the air as Spits, La-7's, P-51's, etc. 2: Fly that aircraft around a bit to see for yourself.
If you don't do 1 and 2, you come off sounding foolish.
Quoted for truth. End of line.
Anybody claiming the 110 is uber is just plain ignorant.
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There's a 4th level, Juggler. Those that can do it in nearly any plane in the set. There's only a tiny percentage that can get into any fighter/attack plane and keep the skill level up without missing a beat.
I think the 3rd lvl folks "in my triad" encompass this MIR, which I might add YOU are clearly in this group whom I strove to emulate :aok. Since all fights follow the same basic "manoeuvring path" the variables being obvious, then the 3rd lvl folks have a firm grasp on this concept no matter what plane they use. I'll give you an example: I always thought you to be one of the best 38 sticks in the game, but I ignorantly kept you in the "38 box" along with the likes of Soulyss, Del, Twin etc etc. Then I encountered you in a P51B and thought, Wow, he worked that very nicely. It dawned on me that the "concept" and "application" of manoeuvre was universal and only the experience of players could wrench the very best out of them. To think Grizz or Kappa are only good in K4s would be incredibly foolish and detrimental!
Hope all is great with you MIR :salute :salute
JUGgler
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Many Bf 110 C-4/B (as well as Bf 109 E-4/B) should have received the DB 601Aa engine due to having more power at lower alt = better take-off characteristics with bombs. + more speed at the low-alt run homewards after dropping their bombs.
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I flew the 110C for about 4 months - it's a capable plane because people let their guards down and don't expect much - it was easy to suprise people.
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The only problem flying EW planes is that none of them can catch the typical MA ride. I'd say well over 3/4 of my fights are the results of catching a runner. In a EW plane, you either spend the entire flight dodging orbital passes or shortening the flight chasing them into ack, rarely will you ever get the chance to show off the plane's potential.
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You need to stock up on a lot of E to catch ppl.