Bf 110c

[Bruv119]

Middy does have a point though,   

No way the 110c should even come close to a hurri or spit 1 in a knife fight.   Yes it could do well at BnZ but in AH's perfect world it really does shine brighter than it should IMO! 

[Gixer]

No way the 110c should even come close to a hurri or spit 1 in a knife fight.   Yes it could do well at BnZ but in AH's perfect world it really does shine brighter than it should IMO! 

 

Yes but Spits are super novas in AH's in-perfect world and shine far brighter than anything else, especially the Spit8 and 16. True it's the stick not the plane, but Spits are easy mode and will allow you to make mistakes and still get away with the win.

Plus I see HT made the Spit 14 unperked... Just one the MA needed. 


<S>...-Gixer

[Bruv119]

The History doesn't lie in this argument.

237 went into the battle 223 destroyed or lost.   Withdrawn from fighter escort duties because of the turkey shoot.

[Gixer]

The History doesn't lie in this argument.

237 went into the battle 223 destroyed or lost.   Withdrawn from fighter escort duties because of the turkey shoot.

Please don't make comparisons from events in history to air quake with cartoon planes. Just embarrassing,  like I said before AH is about as relevant to WW2 as Angry Birds on my girlfriends ipad.


<S>...-Gixer

[Wmaker]

It is verboten to post that kind of thing in here.  The Luftwaffe fans will be in shortly to explain to you how the Bf110 was actually a great fighter that was crippled by Goering's close escort orders.

(This is revisionist pap that ignores its fate when facing Hurricanes and Spitfires before the close escort orders were issued)

Personally I'd expect a flight model revision to the Bf110s when they get redone, and like with the Hurricane it is unlikely be come out of it being as capable as it was before.  Based on the AH1 Bf109E-4, Bf110C-4b, Hurricane Mk I and Spitfire Mk I one would have expected the Luftwaffe to focus development on the Bf110 and the RAF on the Hurricane resulting in Bf110K-4's facing Hurricane Mk XIVs rather than Bf109K-4's facing Spitfire Mk XIVs as actually happened.  There are reasons they chose the Bf109 and Spitfire.

What I find funny is your vigor in defending your "pet planes" and telling how anyone questioning the flight models of these planes need proof to back their arguments up (which of course is very true) but at the same time you consider yourself completely able to make casual comments on other planes' flight models without submitting any proof non what so ever.

That's 100% certified hypocrisy right there.

[Debrody]

Middy does have a point though,   

No way the 110c should even come close to a hurri or spit 1 in a knife fight.   Yes it could do well at BnZ but in AH's perfect world it really does shine brighter than it should IMO! 

Fear the super-uber Bf-110 
Seriously dude, youre in a fricken spitfire, yet whining that the mighty Bf-110c is too über?
Any more advantage you need? What a poor sport retard.



By the way: there is NO WAY a 110c can outturn a spit. Middy was utterly owned by a far superior pilot flying a much lesser aircraft, so hes crying that the IMPOSSIBRU Bf-110C is waaay to über.
What a poor sport retard again.

[SmokinLoon]

There are so many other factors when considering how X plane can defeat Y plane in a duel.  On paper X plane is vastly inferior to Y yet while in a duel the superior plane is bested. Sure, piloting "skill" and more so experience will go a long way in dictating who wins, but not always.

Speed, angle of shot, SOP tactics (biggest factor, imo), ACM's, type of weapons used (.30 cal MG's vs 20mm cannons, etc), roll rate, turn rate, turn radius, visibility, acceleration, etc, etc.  All it takes is for the inferior plane to get a shot on the better plane and it could be over in a matter of seconds. 

The biggest thing to remember is that Aces High allows for the models to be flown and a place for the models to be flown in a virtual word, AND that it is not really representative to the real deal simply due to all the factors not able to be brought to the table in Aces High.  If a Hurricane Mk I and a 110C met at 12,000 over the English channel a few things need to be considered right from the get go BEFORE the planes ever engage.  A: what is the SOP for each plane?  Does the Lufty have direct orders to NOT get in to a turn fight? Does he have orders to keep speeds above 250 TAS? Does the RAF pilot have orders to NOT make more than 2 attack passes?  Etc, etc. B: Fuel range? Can either plane stick around and actually duke it out or can they each be on station for 5 mins before they have to RTB? C: What about the speeds in which each plane engages? If the Hurricane Mk I is at 200 TAS (think basic patrol) while the 110C begins the fight co-alt at 300 TAS (he was inbound to an area for a search and destroy mission), the odds are in the favor of the 110C for white awhile, imo.  Etc, etc. If I were that Luft pilot I sure as heck wouldn't get slow and low vs any fighter.  Speed is my life.  And not all engagements ended in a win/loss between the 2 planes.

So arguments like these are a bit moot, really.  While the "X vs Y" argument is able to be had while going over the charts, etc, once in the air there are many things that simply cant be modeled nor replicated.  Oh, and don't forget that 1 major human factor not able to be modeled: the "life and/or death" variable.  In AH we can simply re-up.  In the real deal it was a very real danger.  If you're in a Hurricane Mk I and you see tracers coming from a 110C's front guns I'd be willing to be the bravado you'd have in Aces High would be non-existent in the real deal. 

Few things are absolute.  The odds of 2 planes meeting at co-alt with equal E and equally "skilled" pilots are so very slim.     

[Karnak]

What I find funny is your vigor in defending your "pet planes" and telling how anyone questioning the flight models of these planes need proof to back their arguments up (which of course is very true) but at the same time you consider yourself completely able to make casual comments on other planes' flight models without submitting any proof non what so ever.

That's 100% certified hypocrisy right there.

???

No idea what you're talking about.  My "pet" plane is probably the Mossie, but I've never advocated for it to perform better than it should.  When somebody said it should do 375 on the deck post a pilot's claim as a source I countered that by posting DH data saying some air speed indicators showed a speed ~20mph too high in response to those pilot claims.

The Hurricane and Bf110 have both significantly mismatched their historical performances and pilot comments.  Per one modern pilot, contrasting the roll rate of the jet fighter he flew and the Hurricane he flew gave a roll rate for the Hurricane a full 50% slower than the AH1 Hurricane.  Commentaries from pilots during the war praise the Spitfire I's responsiveness compared to the Hurricane and the Hurricane's stability as a gun platform, pretty much the exact opposite of the Spitfire and Hurricane I in AH1.  The fact that the Bf110C-4b was the Luftwaffe player's mount of choice in BoB scenarios in AH1, over the Bf109E-4, in direct contradiction to historical capabilities.

HTC did, in fact, reduce the responsiveness of the Hurricanes when they were updated to AH2 standards.  If that will happen with the Bf110s remains to be seen, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.  Will it be by a massive amount?  No, of course not, the Bf110 is not a high wing loading plane like the Me410, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that it is a bit more sluggish to respond after it is updated.

As to the OP's Spit VIII being out turned by a Bf110C-4b, that is unlikely to change and is a reflection on his bad tactics rather than the Bf110C-4b.

[Widewing]

The reality of things is that the 110s turn very small circles with full flaps. There's no doubt in my mind that their flaps are too effective. I can't think of another type that gets the same reduction in turn radius for flap use.

That said, while both 110s can turn small circles, they do so very slowly. With no E, there's no ability to fight in the vertical effectively with... Easy to defeat, if you are smart enough to avoid the trap of trying to match their turning circle.

Midway, the SpitVIII is a slightly better knife fighter than the SpitXVI, simply because it is more stable at the limit. Both should make short work of a 110C, regardless of who is flying it. You can engage and disengage at will. You can utterly own the vertical. Your acceleration is vastly better. Of course, none of that will help you if you burn down all of your advantage just to engage in a level turning fight. Even then, you bear off, unload (accelerate), reverse and re-engage with a substantial E advantage. Manage your energy, bleed off the 110's with slashing attacks, then kill it at your leisure.

The most important rule of air combat is not to fight the way the enemy fights best. A 110C cannot out-turn a SpitVIII without getting flaps out. To get flaps out, the 110C must get below 200 mph. Simple, easy no-brainer. JUGgler lives for the overshoot and he's a smart pilot. He'll go vertical, dump flaps, and roll out for a shot as you whiz by. Don't fall for it. If you do, JUGgler will not likely miss his shot.

If you lose, it's not because the 110C is especially uber, it's because the pilot flew to his plane's strengths and you allowed it.

[Midway]

Middy does have a point though,   

No way the 110c should even come close to a hurri or spit 1 in a knife fight.   Yes it could do well at BnZ but in AH's perfect world it really does shine brighter than it should IMO! 

 

 

[GScholz]

People's opinion on the 110C seems to be too much based on the experiences in the Battle of Britain. During the battle of France the 110 acquitted itself well against the Hurricane. Also after the BoB in the Med and Africa the 110 did well against the Hurri; Pat Pattle, indisputably one of the RAF's greatest aces, was killed by a 110 while flying a Hurricane during the Greek campaign in 1941. People have a tendency to overlook the enormous tactical advantage the RAF enjoyed during the BoB. The Hurris and Spits were directed by the best air defense command network in the world at the time and they could pick and choose their fights almost at will. The Germans were flying blind.

Anyone who have suffered a period without DAR in the MA knows how much of a force multiplier C3 is.

[Karnak]

The Hurris in the BoF were very different animals than the Hurris in the BoB.

In addition I've read many an account of how easy a Spit pilot found it to turn the tables on a Bf110 that started as the attacker.  While we don't know the relative skill levels of those pilots we do know that the Luftwaffe, thanks to Goering, placed better than average pilots in the Bf110s and the RAF was relatively inexperienced before the BoB.

I agree that you can read too much into things from the BoB, but you can also read too little and it seems to me that the Luftwaffe fans always try to say the BoB is meaningless.  The Bf109E-4 did fine in the BoB, the Bf110C-4 did not, even before the close escort orders were issued, and in AH the Bf110C-4 is largely superior to the Bf109E-4.

[olds442]

  Why do you say this?  Do you know the corner speeds of both A/C? Do you know the lift and drag coefficients for both A/C? Do you have the rollrate figures at various speeds for both A/C? Unless the answer is yes to all these questions, you really have no idea how they compare

Trust him he dose, he watched something on the history channel and then saw it on wikipedia.

[GScholz]

Karnak.

Again our 110C has uprated 601P engines, so it is not really representative of a BoB 110C, but a very late 1940/early 1941 110C-4b. It has more than 300 hp more than a 601B engined 110C. It performs like a 1941 110C-7.


Edit: Fixed my brain fart when calculating the hp increase...

[Karnak]

Karnak.

Again our 110C has uprated 601P engines, so it is not really representative of a BoB 110C, but a very late 1940/early 1941 110C-4b. It has more than 500 hp more than a 601B engined 110C. It performs like a 1941 110C-7.

Yeah, I know.  Only about 20 of them were built as I recall.  It would be nice to have a true Bf110C-4.