Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: moot on July 25, 2013, 05:54:32 PM
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There are only a four of aircraft I have landed eight air-to-air kills with, the N1K2-J, Typhoon Mk Ib, Mosquito Mk VI and P-38L. The Mosquito isn't really in the same category as I've flown it so many times that my opportunities to land eight kills have been higher thus even though I did it twice in it, the percentage of sorties that resulted in an eight kill landing is much lower.
If I found it easy to have that success in the P-38, and there were other very successful sorties too, it can't be that hard. It certainly is harder than the Spitfires, other than the I and XIV, and N1K2-J, but that doesn't make it harder than most.
Only once have I landed more than eight air-to-air kills and that was twelve kills in an A6M5b. That sortie was an aberration for me as ever shot I took seemed to go home, even insane deflection shots.
Landing kills isn't the same as fighting in it. I've landed 9 kills in a 38G before just picking a furball. I don't really consider that awesome 38 flying, as all I was really taking advantage of is the gun package and target fixation by the cons.
I think we're moving the goalposts a bit here. There's a huge difference between being easy to fly and kill with and being an effective fighter for someone who takes the time to learn and use the platform. The 38 falls squarely in the latter category, imo. I think it does with the majority of AH players, too.
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I agree that the 38 has plenty to offer, but it's status as a 'Jack of all Trades' is paradoxical. The biggest strength of the 38 is also it's biggest weakness. It does everything well enough to try, but that doesn't mean you should.
..But it is a significant asset, unlike the JoaT saying subverts people into thinking. When you can do everything well enough, you're actually gaining advantage anytime the other plane isn't doing "its" thing. Does that make sense? Cause that's definitely what flying the 38 felt like the couple of times I got into it after being stuck in D9/152 and flogging the crap out of those.. The effect did wear off, but for the duration, those D9/152 flying habits translated into really hard whups of the other guy(s) compared to what I'd get from almost any other plane in stead of the 38. And I mean actual dogfighting incl close range stall fight, not just pressuring BNZ.
Put another way. You have something like the old Spit5 and you have the D9. The 38's sweet spot IMO (I'm not a 38 long timer but I'm saying it honestly for whatever my word's worth) spans across that divide and that means more than "does everything ok" seems to mean for most people.
I had a big point for point response to some of what you've said, but I'll spare everyone that. A lot of that comes down to the minutia of the situation.
Yep. I'm arguing minutia too. Most of the Good Fights in AH are won/lost in the "minutia" margins.
The only point I will argue against is your comment on dive brakes. The 38L doesn't have dive brakes, it has dive recovery flaps that don't retard speed at all. If you meant "brakes" as in it forces overshoots easily, I can't really agree. I've had mixed results with most of my success probably being the result of the other guy screwing up. Other planes seem to force overshoots much easier.
My mistake. They're not brakes but aerodynamic help for compression.. right?. I only remember putting them on every time I wanted to cut speed and I guess I misled myself into thinking they worked that way.
I'll briefly hop on your ankle and say you're not an average pilot. What comes easy to you is not easy for the vast majority of us. /ankle off
I think you and I agree on this, actually. The 38 in the hands of someone who knows it and how to make the best use of it in any situation will be successful. But it doesn't really come that easy to everyone. If it did, you'd see a lot more 38 drivers mixing it up on the deck.
IMO the problem is lack of interface between average-to-low players and training means (trainers + training tools). For whatever reasons that're worth their own thread, there's not enough Training covering the surface area of Suck (or diffusing into the volume of Suck, you get the picture I'm trying to show).. Minutia again: I'm not arguing that the 38 is that easy, I'm saying that the things you need to do to pass that reward floor, that minimum proficiency level, are pretty basic things. They're not hard things. ... The "average player skill" is the moving goal post. Remove trainers or fix that lack of training effect and the standard of comparison varies correspondingly.
I don't think you and Karnak/me are disagreeing that much.. I do think the argument's confused because it's not agreed what exactly is the "skill standard".
My way of saying that in most cases, diving away isn't an option for the 38.
I dunno about that.. Now that you said it I have doubts, but what I remember is that the 38 goes like stink from a stop, especially pointing down.
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Its a great plane for those who have decent SA. It is, however, target #1 for most players including myself, so it's easy to find yourself outnumbered.
With a good wingman, or if you come in at the top of the fight and BnZ, it's pretty damn hard to beat.
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I m confused. What do we mean by easy or hard? It depends on how you use it and against what plane and player. What does easy mean? The only time I have trouble against a 38 is when there are 2 other 38s around. Does that make it a hard plane or is mine easier to fly?
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Easy to fly, hard to master.
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All I meant was that, capability taken as a whole, ranking easiest from #1 Spitfire Mk XVI to hardest #72 P-40C that the P-38L and J would fall significantly closer to the Spitfire Mk XVI than to the P-40C. Probably somewhere in the 20th to 25th spot range I would guess without hashing it out.
Does that make them easy? I don't know that I can answer that, but it kinda puts the constant swagger of P-38 fans bragging about flying the hardest fighter in perspective.
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The context was "easy to fly" and "easy to learn". You always hear those words in these types of plane comparison discussions. It wasn't clear and I meant to argue my own nit pick in that confusion...
I think "average player skill" at any given time is variable, but riding the stall or other parts of flying your plane (as opposed to SA or interpreting/predicting the other guy) aren't variable-difficulty things. So average player skill isn't a good standard for comparison. And if you put all planes on that kind of absolute scale, I agree with Karnak that the 38 is definitely on the easy side of the middle. It's an aggregate of a lotta things like Dedalos says, but I don't think it's that hard to suss out how easy or hard it is to fly and fight overall, to some given performance standard. EG survive this long / kill this many, in a given furball or duel set up.
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..But it is a significant asset, unlike the JoaT saying subverts people into thinking. When you can do everything well enough, you're actually gaining advantage anytime the other plane isn't doing "its" thing. Does that make sense? Cause that's definitely what flying the 38 felt like the couple of times I got into it after being stuck in D9/152 and flogging the crap out of those.. The effect did wear off, but for the duration, those D9/152 flying habits translated into really hard whups of the other guy(s) compared to what I'd get from almost any other plane in stead of the 38. And I mean actual dogfighting incl close range stall fight, not just pressuring BNZ.
Put another way. You have something like the old Spit5 and you have the D9. The 38's sweet spot IMO (I'm not a 38 long timer but I'm saying it honestly for whatever my word's worth) spans across that divide and that means more than "does everything ok" seems to mean for most people.
Yep. I'm arguing minutia too. Most of the Good Fights in AH are won/lost in the "minutia" margins..
I suppose I'm of the mind that when an airplane (or any machine) has a specific set of strengths to play to or weaknesses to stay away from, it's easier to master than a more versatile aircraft that does many things well. That may not make sense on paper, but in game I often found (and still find) myself 'in between' different approaches. If I'm flying a Dora for example, I don't even fathom trying some things I'll try in a 38, and often trying them in a 38 is a mistake. What you're saying makes sense, but I think it only works out for better pilots who are able to make use of the variety of options at their disposal. Noobs like myself often do better when they have less options... at least in the short term.
My mistake. They're not brakes but aerodynamic help for compression.. right?. I only remember putting them on every time I wanted to cut speed and I guess I misled myself into thinking they worked that way..
Right. IRL they were added under the wing to change the airflow to give the control surfaces a fighting chance at high speed. In game, I've found their effect to even be minimal in a dive. I have no reason to believe they don't work as intended, but flying the G and J more than the L, I usually forget about them altogether.
IMO the problem is lack of interface between average-to-low players and training means (trainers + training tools). For whatever reasons that're worth their own thread, there's not enough Training covering the surface area of Suck (or diffusing into the volume of Suck, you get the picture I'm trying to show).. Minutia again: I'm not arguing that the 38 is that easy, I'm saying that the things you need to do to pass that reward floor, that minimum proficiency level, are pretty basic things. They're not hard things. ... The "average player skill" is the moving goal post. Remove trainers or fix that lack of training effect and the standard of comparison varies correspondingly. .
Taken independently I'd say you're right on. The list of things you need to be able to do to fly the 38 at a higher than average level isn't a bridge too far, but it does require quick and concise decision making as to what to do and when. Again, this is where too many options is actually a bad thing for a lot of folks. All too often I've been in a given situation, recognize too late (even if only just) what's happening and suddenly I'm in a spot I'm not likely to get out of. I think the sheer size of the 38 hinders this too. There are smaller aircraft that are just plain harder to hit, and because of that you can be a touch late/off in your decision making and/or timing and probably get away with it.
I don't think you and Karnak/me are disagreeing that much.. I do think the argument's confused because it's not agreed what exactly is the "skill standard".
You're right. What I meant in was the 'average' player. I suppose we could use statistics to find that guy or gal, but even those don't tell the whole story. I agree it's very subjective which is why there is some disagreement here.
I dunno about that.. Now that you said it I have doubts, but what I remember is that the 38 goes like stink from a stop, especially pointing down.
I don't fly the Hurri much, but I do remember diving after a not so fast con and shedding ailerons by the time I got half way to the deck. I don't think it can dive very well. :) While you're correct that the 38 is a very slick airframe and dives well in the short term, you really can't afford to flirt with compression like a lot of other planes can. I don't know the exact number, but I'd wager a guess that from equal energy states, there is a significant portion of the planes in AH that will catch the 38 in a dive or make him lawn dart trying to dive away. Pilot savvy does play a role there too, I suppose.
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EZ mode because of no-torque cheat to worry about :t
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I find our p-38s easy to take off in and fly but watch your dive it compresses very easy and the tricks I know to pull a 109 out of a dive don't work on the P-38. It took me a while to be able to bomb with it I still suck with it;s rockets. Even with the guns in the nose I don't gun well with it. The p-38 is a dream to land with maybe the best landing gear in the game. In the right hands it is a great plane, My hands are not the right ones' it would appear.
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Who cares? :rolleyes:
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Try the p39d with the 20mm gun package, it is a fun plane.
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I like the 38.....as a target. My aim sucks so it makes a big target. Must be why it attracts the flies of the MA. :D
Love it for ground attack but hesitate to take it to alt as I will auger it if not careful. You get spoiled flying the other rides that zoom in and then you jump in a 38. :uhoh
Some sticks keep it above the furballs and pick the less aware. :furious
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Some sticks keep it above the furballs and pick the less aware. :furious
Those are the 38 aces lol
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The P38s are the best planes in the game if you have great SA and ACM. If not you're cannon fodder. To be really good in one you have to know how to get it "skinny" and be good at fighting more than one con at a time. Like most any other planes in the game it has it's quirks and takes some seat time to learn them if you want to be really good in one. If anything it takes more patience then most other planes. Meaning you just can't fly around full throttle and dive in a fight from 20K like you can in 190s or 51s. You need to know something about compression, rudder & throttle control.
I think the 38s are more dependant on the pilots input and skill level over most other planes.....i.e. F4Us, A6Ms, Hurris, Spits, Brewsters, 51s, 47s, 190s.......just to name a few. As the ability of the pilot improves so will the ease of flying it. It's a pilots plane IMO.
So I don't believe one can put a label on how hard or easy it is to fly/fight in. A noob will tell you it's hard and a vet will says it's easy. For that reason alone, it'd rank the 38s a 5 out of 10 for ease.
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Easy mode planes - ones that require zero pilot awareness of speed, torque, or visibility (brews, zekes, KI43, Spit5, 16) and easily gets defensive
Medium mode - some attention to flight data, flight surface limitations, alt performance, roll rates
Everything else - must use all of your brain to manage flight data, SA etc to fly the plane offensively against any of the planes in the prior two groups. Requires use of all flight surface capabilities for it to be knife fight competitive.
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I find our p-38s easy to take off in and fly but watch your dive it compresses very easy and the tricks I know to pull a 109 out of a dive don't work on the P-38.
Chop throttle, trim it up, kick some rudder... works for both.
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Score hawking is not for the new P38 stick. Forget about the K/D ratio. Learn to die and die well. Turn off 200. Work with a trainer then spend the next couple of months working what you have learned into your skill package. The P38
I don't think there is another plane out there that will climb loaded with ords as well as a P38.
It is a tough, long row to hoe but the task is worth the effort.
titanic3 said, "Easy to fly. Tough to master." That really covers the P38's role in AH and WW2.
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Easy mode planes - ones that require zero pilot awareness of speed, torque, or visibility (brews, zekes, KI43, Spit5, 16) and easily gets defensive
Medium mode - some attention to flight data, flight surface limitations, alt performance, roll rates
Everything else - must use all of your brain to manage flight data, SA etc to fly the plane offensively against any of the planes in the prior two groups. Requires use of all flight surface capabilities for it to be knife fight competitive.
Ill use your post to reply on a few others also. First of all, you cannot include SA when judging a plane. Good SA means do not ever get into a fight unless you have all possible advantages. You cannot make a plane judgement in that situation.
I don;t understand why you think an easy plane like the spit5 does not require awareness of speed or torque. Maybe you don't fly it because you think it is easy but I can tell you for sure that it turns best at a certain speed and if you get it too slow at the top of a loop you will find out the hard way about torque. Also, turning at low speeds requires you to know about torque. I don;t see how it is different that any other plane except the 38 since that is one plane that you don;t have to worry about torque so much.
As for flying data, how is it different for any other plane? They all have different performance at different alts and they can all rip their wings off if too fast. As for the 38 compressing, well, if you compress one it means you are running away or a cherry pick when terribly wrong.
As for the everything else comments, what does require use of all flight surface capabilities for it to be knife fight competitive even mean? Don;t you use your flight surfaces in other planes? lol. How hard is it to pull the stick in a 38?
As for me, I think you guys make things sound a lot more complicated that they are. I watch my speed right before engagement but after that I dont ever take my eyes off of the opponent (or his friends). Stall buzzer, flaps retracting and experience are my only tools in a fight. I also fly everything the same way from a spit5, La7, 110, 205, 109 any plane. What I mean by that is that a fight is simple. It is all about positioning, anticipating where the other guy is going to be after a few seconds and fooling him into making a mistake. So no matter what the plane I am in the approach to the fight is always the same. I don;t ever remember checking my speed in the middle of a fight or doing any of the complex calculations some of the guys described.
As for SA during a fight if anyone is withing 1K I am watching him. If not then they are not there.
As for the 38 being easy or hard to fly, here is how I see it. Lets say 38 vs the "easy" spit5. If the 38 tries to turn it will die. If the 38 goes into the loop till the end of time strategy then the spit has no hope. If the 38 goes into BnZ mode, the spit has no hope so what exactly is it again that makes a plane easy or hard? Is a spit5 easy beacause the 38 turned with it and lost or is the 38 easy because the spit played the E game with it and lost? It seems that ones actions define the "easiness" of the other plane.
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Ded,
I'm in pretty much agreement with you! That said as far as easy goes I usually get new players,who are trying to learn to takeoff and land to up the 38.
I use a simple progression,land 3 times in a row in the 38,then land 3 times in the P39 as both have tricycle landing gear and the P39 adds in some torque to deal with.Once they are done that and full of themselves,I tell them to take any F4U up and land it..... :devil
:salute
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F4U's easy. Point them at the Spit XIV. That's where the amusement is. :P
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F4U's easy. Point them at the Spit XIV. That's where the amusement is. :P
I've never thought of the 14 being difficult but you might have a good point!
I'll try that on my next victim.... :rofl :rofl :rofl
Some of the remarks I get after they attempt to land the corsairs are priceless!
:salute
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Ill use your post to reply on a few others also. First of all, you cannot include SA when judging a plane. Good SA means do not ever get into a fight unless you have all possible advantages. You cannot make a plane judgement in that situation.
I don;t understand why you think an easy plane like the spit5 does not require awareness of speed or torque. Maybe you don't fly it because you think it is easy but I can tell you for sure that it turns best at a certain speed and if you get it too slow at the top of a loop you will find out the hard way about torque. Also, turning at low speeds requires you to know about torque. I don;t see how it is different that any other plane except the 38 since that is one plane that you don;t have to worry about torque so much.
As for flying data, how is it different for any other plane? They all have different performance at different alts and they can all rip their wings off if too fast. As for the 38 compressing, well, if you compress one it means you are running away or a cherry pick when terribly wrong.
As for the everything else comments, what does require use of all flight surface capabilities for it to be knife fight competitive even mean? Don;t you use your flight surfaces in other planes? lol. How hard is it to pull the stick in a 38?
As for me, I think you guys make things sound a lot more complicated that they are. I watch my speed right before engagement but after that I dont ever take my eyes off of the opponent (or his friends). Stall buzzer, flaps retracting and experience are my only tools in a fight. I also fly everything the same way from a spit5, La7, 110, 205, 109 any plane. What I mean by that is that a fight is simple. It is all about positioning, anticipating where the other guy is going to be after a few seconds and fooling him into making a mistake. So no matter what the plane I am in the approach to the fight is always the same. I don;t ever remember checking my speed in the middle of a fight or doing any of the complex calculations some of the guys described.
As for SA during a fight if anyone is withing 1K I am watching him. If not then they are not there.
As for the 38 being easy or hard to fly, here is how I see it. Lets say 38 vs the "easy" spit5. If the 38 tries to turn it will die. If the 38 goes into the loop till the end of time strategy then the spit has no hope. If the 38 goes into BnZ mode, the spit has no hope so what exactly is it again that makes a plane easy or hard? Is a spit5 easy beacause the 38 turned with it and lost or is the 38 easy because the spit played the E game with it and lost? It seems that ones actions define the "easiness" of the other plane.
You don't need to know any of what you typed about the Spit 5 or any of the easy mode planes to fly them into survivability. You DO need to know those things if you are to fly them at your skill level. See the difference? A noob can and does survive in, and even excel quickly in those planes without needing to know what you know, hence, easy mode. How many good Spit pilots have you seen only to find they suck in K4, 152, mossier, 110s F6Fs etc.
You gave examples f advanced knowledge of planes to which makes you excellent in those. My examples are to show a lesser degree of skill can achieve a decent result because the plane itself requires less.
Edit: flight data I meant speed, alt etc....not the performance work ups. Also, in those planes, they turn so well, the max turn speeds aren't that much different performance-wise than not. They turn better than the other categories regardless of speed.
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P-38's suck stay away from them
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P-38's suck stay away from them
Only the pilots.
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The easy mode seems to apply to planes that can escape either by going up or run away fast.
Big planes get a big negative reduction since they are number one on the hit list. The steak sorta speak of the furbal.
My squad mates love me to fly the P38. It is like trolling. I put the bait in first and they shoot what ever takes the bate. They know too, if I am around I will draw the heat away from their planes. Kind of symbiotic in a furbal sort of way. :airplane:
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To me, the easiest fighters are ones that outturn most planes faster than they are and are faster than most planes that can outturn them. So, if in trouble by getting outturned, they can run, or if in trouble by getting chased down, they can outturn. This group, for me, are Spits, La-7, Yak-3, FW 190D, P-51, Ki-43, Bf 109K, and to a slightly lesser extent F4U, Ki-84, and N1K.
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To me, the easiest fighters are ones that outturn most planes faster than they are and are faster than most planes that can outturn them. So, if in trouble by getting outturned, they can run, or if in trouble by getting chased down, they can outturn. This group, for me, are Spits, La-7, Yak-3, FW 190D, P-51, Ki-43, Bf 109K, and to a slightly lesser extent F4U, Ki-84, and N1K.
:headscratch: um...ah....maybe forgot the Brewster? :)
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:headscratch: um...ah....maybe forgot the Brewster? :)
The Brewster is OK, but it doesn't turn as well as a Ki-43, and it isn't faster than a Ki-43. That category that I give is certainly subject to judgement and is a spectrum of performance. I didn't put the Brewster in, but even in my opinion it isn't out of the category by much (sort of on the border of it), and there would be others who would put it in. I also think that Zeros are not far out of the category.
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I m confused. What do we mean by easy or hard?
I always thought it was simple..
Easy
(http://www.combinedops.com/ROC/ROC_spitfire_Merlin.jpg)
Hard
(http://www.simplyfly.ch/aero/Doc/GM2/Fw-190/fw190a8.jpg)
:P
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You are ignoring this user. Show me the post.
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I always thought it was simple..
Easy
Hard
:P
:lol
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I landed 8 in a Stuka-g2 2 of which where aircraft. I had to land and rearm it, but I did so missing the tail wheel.
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I always thought it was simple..
Easy
(http://www.combinedops.com/ROC/ROC_spitfire_Merlin.jpg)
Hard
(http://www.simplyfly.ch/aero/Doc/GM2/Fw-190/fw190a8.jpg)
:P
190 is one of those planes that's easy to fly (all x/y/z controls feels "harmonized" and all "in sync") but dang suicidal to do slow, edge-of-envelope 1-on-1 dogfights in due to narrow window of speed (400+ = you can turn ; below 300 = brick!) when it comes to "turning" ("turning" as in relying too much on elevator instead of complimenting it with aileron+rudder)
I think i've heard an axiom somewhere when it comes to fighter aircraft (forgot the exact quote) but it basically comes down to this:
1. stable plane/platform = less 'manuverable' (in a 'TnB' sense)
2. plane that's inherently unstable = manuverable (in a 'TnB' sense)
Reply
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190D is one of those planes that's easy to fly (all x/y/z controls feels "harmonized" and all "in sync") but dang impossible (and suicidal) to do slow edge-of-envelope 1-on-1 dogfights in.
I think i've heard an axiom somewhere when it comes to fighter aircraft (forgot the exact quote) but it basically comes down to this:
1. stable plane/platform = less 'manuverable' (in a 'TnB' sense)
2. plane that's inherently unstable = manuverable (in a 'TnB' sense)
Reply
That's all fine and dandy but the silhouette I posted was an A8.
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You don't need to know any of what you typed about the Spit 5 or any of the easy mode planes to fly them into survivability. You DO need to know those things if you are to fly them at your skill level. See the difference? A noob can and does survive in, and even excel quickly in those planes without needing to know what you know, hence, easy mode.
I disagree. If a 38 plays the E game a spit5 can turn all it wants but it may just delay death if the pilot is good. I still don;t see what you mean by easy. Are you considering it easy because it can turn good? A D9 for example would just BnZ it for ever with no danger to its pilot at all. Just don't turn with it. Are we talking about easy to stay alive by running? Then I would say easy is 51, 190, LA etc.
I also disagree with the skill level comment. If you try to follow any one up in a spit5 and you get too slow, or if you loop and get too slow at the top you are in for a nasty surprise. There is nothing I can do to take advantage of that nasty float like a feather stall so skill levels are not into play. The plane can turn good but that is it. Not to mention its ammo load sucks so a new guy is not going to get a lot of kills with that either.
How many good Spit pilots have you seen only to find they suck in K4, 152, mossier, 110s F6Fs etc.
Non really. All the good (and I mean good not people who say they are good) pilots give me the same amount of trouble. If we are equal it comes down to plane knowledge but I never had anyone good suck just because they did not fly the plane every day.
You gave examples f advanced knowledge of planes to which makes you excellent in those. My examples are to show a lesser degree of skill can achieve a decent result because the plane itself requires less.
Thats because I am not talking about a new guy on his first day. A new guy after a few months that has flown the 38 a few times. Actually, BnZ is the first thing most new guys try so you will see a new guy in a 38 do that before he tries to burn. To be honest, a new guy will not survive the encounter no matter what plane he is in. In my experience, I will kill him faster if he is in a spit because he will try to turn. In a 38 he has the option of taking a few shots and go away. So, again, does that make the 38 easy?
What exactly does a 38 require that any other plane does not? What is it that a spit does not require? Are we talking about trimming the plane? I have never ever trimmed a plane since day one (ok the P39 a couple of times in the DA to see if it made a difference). I still think you guys make this game sound over complicated. The rules are simple and very similar for every plane: Manage your speed at the merge, throttle control, solve the puzzle of getting an angle on your opponent, do not take your eyes off of him. They all apply to the spit also.
In any case, I think I could come up with a list of things that a 38 will do better than a spit5 or any other plane and they do not require a player to be genius to figure them out. Will that make it easy? No. They are all easy. They take off by them selves, they land with the gear up, engine management is not required, some can ping you from 1K out, no G forces are felt, your head can turn in any direction while you are pulling Gs, flaps retract automatically, they only deploy if speed allows, pilot wounds are not really wounds allowing you to take any risk, etc etc. It is an easy mode game no matter what plane you are in. You think dive flaps and trimming require some skill?
Edit: flight data I meant speed, alt etc....not the performance work ups. Also, in those planes, they turn so well, the max turn speeds aren't that much different performance-wise than not. They turn better than the other categories regardless of speed.
Same argument again. A spit can turn all it wants. If the 38 plays the E game there is nothing the spit can do
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I always thought it was simple..
Easy
(http://www.combinedops.com/ROC/ROC_spitfire_Merlin.jpg)
Hard
(http://www.simplyfly.ch/aero/Doc/GM2/Fw-190/fw190a8.jpg)
:P
Clip the wings, put cannon and symmetrical radiators on it and we'll be really talking...
Mk I, not so much. :p
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190D is one of those planes that's easy to fly (all x/y/z controls feels "harmonized" and all "in sync") but dang impossible (and suicidal) to do slow edge-of-envelope 1-on-1 dogfights in.
I think i've heard an axiom somewhere when it comes to fighter aircraft (forgot the exact quote) but it basically comes down to this:
1. stable plane/platform = less 'manuverable' (in a 'TnB' sense)
2. plane that's inherently unstable = manuverable (in a 'TnB' sense)
Reply
190D9 is what I call an interceptor. It is not meant to dog fight. It is for hunting bombers and BnZ. So, comparing it to a dog fighter and claiming the dog fighter is easy to fight in is kind of silly. At list that is my opinion about the 190 in real life.
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190D9 is what I call an interceptor. It is not meant to dog fight. It is for hunting bombers and BnZ. So, comparing it to a dog fighter and claiming the dog fighter is easy to fight in is kind of silly. At list that is my opinion about the 190 in real life.
That's all fine and dandy but the silhouette I posted was an A8.
I meant to say 190s in general, not just the D (see edit)
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I m confused. What do we mean by easy or hard? It depends on how you use it and against what plane and player. What does easy mean? The only time I have trouble against a 38 is when there are 2 other 38s around. Does that make it a hard plane or is mine easier to fly?
I seem to recall in the not too distant past having some good brawls with some guy named dedalos in a Ki-84 while I was in a 38G. No help and no alt on em too. Won some, lost some. So lets not get too carried away :)
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I seem to recall in the not too distant past having some good brawls with some guy named dedalos in a Ki-84 while I was in a 38G. No help and no alt on em too. Won some, lost some. So lets not get too carried away :)
Ok ok :lol But it took a dedicated 38 bus driver. I really don't have any problems against a 38 in the MA. It does not mean they don't kill me. It just means that the plane had nothing to do with my death. I probably screwed up bad or the other guy was just better. But the majority of them will loop loop run rinse and repeat, but that says more about the pilot and not the plane.
Did you really win a few? Was I caring bombs or something? :headscratch: :rofl
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Ok ok :lol But it took a dedicated 38 bus driver. I really don't have any problems against a 38 in the MA. It does not mean they don't kill me. It just means that the plane had nothing to do with my death. I probably screwed up bad or the other guy was just better. But the majority of them will loop loop run rinse and repeat, but that says more about the pilot and not the plane.
Did you really win a few? Was I caring bombs or something? :headscratch: :rofl
You said you had too much fuel if I remember right :)
Was good fun too as I recall :aok
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I say neither to the OPs question, fair, average, does all things with an average bent, one thing it excels at is attraction but think that was already established in this thread, makes for a big target, would be curious to see some numbers on the size of the hit bubble compared to say a yak or LA7 ingame.
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You said you had too much fuel if I remember right :)
Was good fun too as I recall :aok
Bah, easy mode 38. :furious
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Because the P-38 is a "Jack of all trades" it will 8 times out of 10 be able to beat another plane in a specific fighting style either it be slow turning or a veticle fight.
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Hey big guy, its a joke calm down :P
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I say neither to the OPs question, fair, average, does all things with an average bent, one thing it excels at is attraction but think that was already established in this thread, makes for a big target, would be curious to see some numbers on the size of the hit bubble compared to say a yak or LA7 ingame.
The Pee51s and 47s have a smaller side profile than the 38.
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The Pee51s and 47s have a smaller side profile than the 38.
Only when looking at the planform, look from the side down the wing and the 38 is no bigger than a 51, abd probably smaller than a 47. getting skinny is something 38 drivers have to learn.
:)
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Only when looking at the planform, look from the side down the wing and the 38 is no bigger than a 51, abd probably smaller than a 47. getting skinny is something 38 drivers have to learn.
:)
Yes I got that backwards. The 51 and 47s have a LARGER side profile than the 38s :o..........TwinBoom mentioned something about getting "skinny" but when ever I suck my gut in I still get shot to hell! :furious The swearing off of Twinkies and doing jumping jacks before a sortie isn't working either. :mad:
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getting skinny is something 38 drivers have to learn.
:)
Soulyss, I have finally started working that into my skills. It took awhile to have it happen without much thought.
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Several years ago I flew with the 475th Squadron,and at it's peak we had the best pilots in AH,TwinBoom,Killnu,Fester,SkyRock,and many more I can't recall now.Most of them are flying with the Muppet's now as they are among the best pilots in AH.Most of them fly planes with high eny's because they are that good!A P-38 to me flown by a good stick,is a killing machine!A p-38 flown by an average stick like me is a death trap!My SA has long since departed,and I get picked a lot while trying to rope a enemy.I think a P-38 is a well balanced air plane,and while it is a big target,one must be careful,when you engage one when you don't have any help around,as they will beat you if flown by a good stick.
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Only when looking at the planform, look from the side down the wing and the 38 is no bigger than a 51, abd probably smaller than a 47. getting skinny is something 38 drivers have to learn.
:)
The numbers I am seeing for the side view :
P-38 - Length 37 feet
P-51 - Length 32 feet
P-47 - Length 36 feet
I found nothing for the height of the fuselage with wheels up, but you can see the jug is much taller through out the lenght when it comes to fuse height.
Like I said ealier show me the number for the hit bubble, just think we could start a whole new whine section on why this plane has this size hit bubble and what not, Oh the humanity!
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If the 38 goes into BnZ mode, the spit has no hope so what exactly is it again that makes a plane easy or hard? Is a spit5 easy beacause the 38 turned with it and lost or is the 38 easy because the spit played the E game with it and lost? It seems that ones actions define the "easiness" of the other plane.
No. It's (as I understand others) about how much of a "buffer" the plane is to players' basic tactical intentions. Analogous to some performance cars or motorcycles that are described as "telepathic" but others not; and yet those others might perform (overall) on par or better.
If we say the P-38 is roughly on par with the P-51 in terms of overall killing ability (apples and oranges squeezed to equal volume of juice), we have a good illustration: they're roughly equal on that benchmark, but the 51 is pretty unarguably more user friendly. IOW the 51 is more "easy"
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Triton I'll have time to do more than reply at a glance midweek when I'm done with moving. Don't mean to ignore the discussion.
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"Easy" and "Hard" are what the pilot makes of them. Attaching such labels to an airframe will establish a baseline correlation based on the average player's flying style, but ultimately attaching the label to the airframe is pointless.
Want to fly a Pony into into a swarm of Spits on the deck? Life just got hard. Want to pick your matchups from the top of a furball in a K4? Life just got easy.
Personally, I consider the 38 to be a moderately hard aircraft to fly successfully in, much like the Jug. It's difficulties do not stem from any severe shortcoming in performance, but more because of unique size and handling characteristics.
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1. stable plane/platform = less 'manuverable' (in a 'TnB' sense)
2. plane that's inherently unstable = manuverable (in a 'TnB' sense)
Think you got this backwards. And I would add unstable usually means higher top speeds.
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For me, the P38 is pretty damn hard. I mean, i have tryed it in the MA, even had some success with it, but couldnt feel well in that aircraft. After some dueling rounds with IrishOne, found out, why: no torque, no talwhipping tricks, fancy reversals, easy snaprolls, etc, all my moves i like to use are nearly impossible in this aircraft. If someone figures out, how to live with it, this plane might be OK, but nowhere as easy as a Spit, a Niki, a Lala or even a 109K.
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Like I said ealier show me the number for the hit bubble, just think we could start a whole new whine section on why this plane has this size hit bubble and what not, Oh the humanity!
Pretty sure there is no hit 'bubble'. Bullets actually have to hit the 3D model, or they cause no damage.
Wiley.
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Pretty sure there is no hit 'bubble'. Bullets actually have to hit the 3D model, or they cause no damage.
Wiley.
Correct. There was a hit bubble in AH1, but AH2 fixed that and now rounds have to hit the 3D model shape.
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One thing I read in a link someplace from this BBS, I'll have to try and find it again, is that the designers of the P38 stated that most of the hits absorbed when a fighter is shot at are along the fuselage axis where the P38 has mostly empty space, right between the twin tail booms. They stated it as a percentage factor, and I can't remember it for the life of me, but it was astonishingly high, the amount of "air" that incoming bullets would hit instead of aircraft body.
I've even noticed this in AH, when talking about getting skinny, IE pointing your wing at an opponent who is firing or just about to get into a firing solution whenever it is possible. Even when you can't get that wing quite at your opponent, even though the P38 seems like a large target, and planform with the big wing, it is, there is still that spot, the "sweet" spot the designers were talking about where most incoming rounds hit standard shape planes, that the P38 has nothing but empty space. When shooting at P38s many times in deflection shots with the 30mm, I've had rounds whistle right through that spot on playback on flim, shots against any other aircraft would be catastrophic kills. It's one of the fascinating things about the P38 that makes it sort of a romantic aircraft to me, the fact that it is big, yet small at the same time.
I hope somebody here, one of the P38 guru's, or probably WideWing, knows that source for what I'm talking about, I'd love to have a permanent link or copy of that information, regarding that empty space in the design, and how incoming rounds were factored into that etc.
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If the 38's is considered to be on the more difficult side I think it's because it doesn't have a trump card against a lot of the more common aircraft in the MA. Or I should say it's trump card can be harder to employ to gain an advantage.
Some other planes have something that they can fall back on against a lot of opponents, whether it's speed, climb, turn rate, turn radius etc. In a A6M, Brewster, Ki-43, etc. my tactic is going to be try and slow the fight down, in a 190 or 51 I am going to keep it fast nearly every chance I get.
With the 38 it can do a lot of things reasonably well but you're constantly changing tactics and having to make a lot of decisions, the one thing that it can fall back on, the one thing that it does better than anything else is be very, very stable at low speeds which is hard to exploit to advantage IMHO. The 38 can park nose high all the way down to 0 airspeed and then fall off in just about any way it chooses. It doesn't roll well at low speeds but it remains under control and can roll either way (albeit slowly).
What I've also found is that I've picked up a lot of habits from flying the 38 that don't translate well into other planes, I tend to roll right a lot of the time which works to my disadvantage when slow in a lot of single engine planes.
In the end I don't know if the question is whether it is easier or hard but more of how much different is it due to the zero net torque and jack of all trades characteristics than some of the other A/C in the set.
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Well put, I think.
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Soulyss nailed it flat out. The high performance planes you don't have to push them to the very edge to survive but the 38 you do since every red in the area wants to take the easy shot on such a big plane. Don't get me wrong, any plane has to be pushed to its limits to be the best.
The hard part about a 38 is after you learn the basics, the rest of what you need to learn to survive is hard to work into your skills because it is a pinch of this and a pinch of that.
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Well put, Soulyss.
The decision making is what's hard for me. There's nothing the 38 can do that will make me smarter. :)
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If the 38's is considered to be on the more difficult side I think it's because it doesn't have a trump card against a lot of the more common aircraft in the MA. Or I should say it's trump card can be harder to employ to gain an advantage.
Sure, if you only compare it to the top 10 or 20 fighters it'll be well on the hard side. If you only compare the second easiest fighter to the easiest fighter it'll be hard as well, so I guess we can agree that all fighters other than the Spitfire Mk XVI are hard.
The fact is that the P-38 does have trump cards against most other aircraft. There are fighters in the game that have practically no playable cards against any other fighter.
I stand by my original position, the P-38L/J is easier than the average fighter in AH. That doesn't mean it close to as easy as a Spit XVI, but it does mean there are a lot of aircraft that are significantly harder to succeed in.
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One of the most annoying things about the 38 are the climbing turns. it's down right dangerous.
And even if they don't have that much E, they can still climb nose straight up with those laser guns making a rope/tail-slide risky.
Kudo's to those that can switch from being defensive in a 38 and switch to the killer. :cheers:
Btw AKAK I uh......no hard feelings about the HO right?
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Sure, if you only compare it to the top 10 or 20 fighters it'll be well on the hard side. If you only compare the second easiest fighter to the easiest fighter it'll be hard as well, so I guess we can agree that all fighters other than the Spitfire Mk XVI are hard.
The fact is that the P-38 does have trump cards against most other aircraft. There are fighters in the game that have practically no playable cards against any other fighter.
I stand by my original position, the P-38L/J is easier than the average fighter in AH. That doesn't mean it close to as easy as a Spit XVI, but it does mean there are a lot of aircraft that are significantly harder to succeed in.
I'm curious as to the plane you consider to be the average in terms of difficulty in learning. We established the margins. Let's find the middle.
With the 38 it can do a lot of things reasonably well but you're constantly changing tactics and having to make a lot of decisions... *snip*
It cannot be understated how much the above comment matters when learning the 38 and why it adds complexity. The amount of options the 38 has going into most fights is an asset to a good pilot and a roadblock to the beginner. You can turn well, but. You can climb well, but. You can accelerate well, but. You're fast, but not that fast. You can dive quickly, but compress easily. You can roll well fast (in the L), but not slow. You can handle well slow, but can't throw on the brakes like many others can. Taking away a few of these options reduces capability but also speeds up the learning curve by eliminating bad decision potential. Bad decisions in most fighters make you dead. Bad decisions in a large, twin engine fighter make you dead faster.
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I'm curious as to the plane you consider to be the average in terms of difficulty in learning. We established the margins. Let's find the middle.
Hmmm. I'd have to think about it in detail, but off hand something like the C.205 seems pretty middle of the pack. It has strengths and weaknesses, but none are extreme.
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Bad decisions in most fighters make you dead. Bad decisions in a large, twin engine fighter make you dead faster.
Dude, this needs to be in your signature.
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Dude, this needs to be in your signature.
I need to put it in neon lights above my monitor. :)
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I would agree about the C205, I wonder how a 205 vs P38 fight would end up with equal pilots, if there is such a thing. The 205 doesn't have any of the K4's ability to take the fight nose up and eventually beat the P38 that way, so far as turn rate/radius, I have a feeling they 205 and P38 are pretty close. Flaps use, I'm not sure either, but I think the P38 probably has an advantage once the flaps are out. Firepower, the 205 has decent guns, but the P38 obviously has better accuracy, or at least no convergence issues accuracy wise.
I'm not certain, but I think that the 205/38 match up would be pretty close, and they would be ranked fairly close on the ladder if you were ranking which planes are "easiest" or "easiest to kill/fight with".
Has anyone done any dueling/testing with these two planes?
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Tundra,
i think the 38 would win very quickly once the fight goes under 230mph.
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I think I'd do better in the C.205.
It is interesting to think of a list of fighters on a spectrum from best to worst (in typical MA play).
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Bad decisions in most fighters make you dead. Bad decisions in a large, twin engine fighter make you deader fasterer.
Fixed. :lol
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I would agree about the C205, I wonder how a 205 vs P38 fight would end up with equal pilots, if there is such a thing. The 205 doesn't have any of the K4's ability to take the fight nose up and eventually beat the P38 that way, so far as turn rate/radius, I have a feeling they 205 and P38 are pretty close. Flaps use, I'm not sure either, but I think the P38 probably has an advantage once the flaps are out. Firepower, the 205 has decent guns, but the P38 obviously has better accuracy, or at least no convergence issues accuracy wise.
I'm not certain, but I think that the 205/38 match up would be pretty close, and they would be ranked fairly close on the ladder if you were ranking which planes are "easiest" or "easiest to kill/fight with".
Has anyone done any dueling/testing with these two planes?
The 38 should win - in our game, it's easy to get angles on a 205.
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The 38 should win - in our game, it's easy to get angles on a 205.
depends on who is in 205. ;)
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In my opinion, the 38 is an easy plane to fly as it's very stable. It's also easy for a newer player to use and get kills via BnZ.
After that, it takes some skill to really make it maneuver, and that's where it's goes into the 'hard' category.
I'll say it's not as easy as it was back in AW, when we could hold an 'air brake' and make it hang nose down. The 38 here requires a lot of throttle work and flap usage to gain angles or stay out of the enemy's guns, and if the fight gets too fast while nose down, many planes that aren't considered 'turners' can get inside and gain angles. For instance, Jugs and 51's can turnfight very well versus a 38 if the 38 gets too fast.
It's an easy plane to fly, but a hard one to fly well.
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depends on who is in 205. ;)
I don't know, Ink. Personally, I've never found a 205 to be a problem. They may be good fights, but never a real problem like some others present, like a 109F or Spit 9.
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Fixed. :lol
Had I been typing that drunk, you wouldn't have had to fix it. :)
depends on who is in 205. ;)
Ink vs. Ink, the 38 wins.
Ink (205) vs. Triton28 (38), the 205 wins.
For now. :neener:
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If we were to go by my prior statements (Spit XVI easiest, P-38J/L somewhere in the 20-25 region, Mossie VI easier than average, C.205 mid-pack, P-40C hardest) it might look something like:
1) Spitfire Mk XVI
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.
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23) P-38L
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25) P-38J
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32) Mosquito Mk VI
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37) C.205
.
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.
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74) P-40C
I do think that the P-38s will soundly beat the C.205.
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I feel like I can take a P-38 in my C.205 as long as I'm fighting a pilot who is at about my level.
But of course I'm sure that there are expert P-38 pilots out there who could routinely beat me in a C.205 and various other planes.
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I don't know, Ink. Personally, I've never found a 205 to be a problem. They may be good fights, but never a real problem like some others present, like a 109F or Spit 9.
same here...but I always know it is the pilot I am fighting not the plane... :neener:
38 is not inherently easy mode....but once someone has mastered it...it becomes easy to get kills in....
same can be said for any of the top tier planes....
master the P40 and it still is not easy to get kills in.
to me thats the difference and what makes a plane easy or not.
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The P-38 itself isn't difficult to fly, its gentle stall characteristics and no torque make it one of the more easier planes to fly.
However, fighting in a P-38 isn't as easy as some are trying to out to be. To be successful in the P-38, there are a lot of things the pilot needs to have a good knowledge of, not just how to do it but when to employ that knowledge. If a player doesn't have a good knowledge on how and when to use flaps, they're not going to have an easy time fighting in the P-38. If they don't know how to properly use throttle control, they're not going to have an easy time fighting in the P-38. If they don't know how to coordinate turns, they're not going to have an easy time fighting in the P-38.
It is also important for the P-38 flyer to have a good knowledge of both Energy and Angles fighting, when to employ each and how to switch between the two mid-fight as the successful P-38 flyers in this game are the ones that mix both Energy and Angles fighting in a fight.
There was a pilot that boasted he was able to 'pwn' 95% of the players in his Spit VIII and decided to take a few tours to learn the P-38 so he could 'pwn' the top P-38 flyers. This player quickly found out that fighting in the P-38 wasn't as easy as he had thought and ended up quitting the P-38 because he grew frustrated at not being able to fight in it and got his arse handed back to him on each flight.
To recap, is the P-38 easy to fly? Yes it is. Is the P-38 easy to fight in? No it's not.
ack-ack
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same here...but I always know it is the pilot I am fighting not the plane... :neener:
38 is not inherently easy mode....but once someone has mastered it...it becomes easy to get kills in....
same can be said for any of the top tier planes....
master the P40 and it still is not easy to get kills in.
to me thats the difference and what makes a plane easy or not.
Yep, it's absolutely the person controlling it that makes the fight. And once you know which person you're fighting, tactics change.
Some planes are just darned hard to consistently turn fight and win against most mid or late war rides, regardless of the person piloting it. Your example of a P40 is there. A P39D is there. The 110c is there. They are just outclassed in most fights.
One of the really nice things about AH2 is that there isn't a 'Relaxed Realism' arena, like there was in AW. (Think no blackouts or spins). If a player wants to get into turn fighting, he/she needs to learn the various aspects of their plane and work on techniques rather than just balls-to-the-wall throttle and jamming the stick back.
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The P-38 itself isn't difficult to fly, its gentle stall characteristics and no torque make it one of the more easier planes to fly.
However, fighting in a P-38 isn't as easy as some are trying to out to be. To be successful in the P-38, there are a lot of things the pilot needs to have a good knowledge of, not just how to do it but when to employ that knowledge. If a player doesn't have a good knowledge on how and when to use flaps, they're not going to have an easy time fighting in the P-38. If they don't know how to properly use throttle control, they're not going to have an easy time fighting in the P-38. If they don't know how to coordinate turns, they're not going to have an easy time fighting in the P-38.
It is also important for the P-38 flyer to have a good knowledge of both Energy and Angles fighting, when to employ each and how to switch between the two mid-fight as the successful P-38 flyers in this game are the ones that mix both Energy and Angles fighting in a fight.
There was a pilot that boasted he was able to 'pwn' 95% of the players in his Spit VIII and decided to take a few tours to learn the P-38 so he could 'pwn' the top P-38 flyers. This player quickly found out that fighting in the P-38 wasn't as easy as he had thought and ended up quitting the P-38 because he grew frustrated at not being able to fight in it and got his arse handed back to him on each flight.
To recap, is the P-38 easy to fly? Yes it is. Is the P-38 easy to fight in? No it's not.
ack-ack
This is where Dedalos and I got off track earlier in the thread. I didn't explain it as we'll as you did in my crayon eater example of easy - medium - difficult. This is what I meant, lol
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disregard
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Hmmm easy or hard......190 :D
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Hmmm easy or hard......190 :D
Translation im generating as many post's as i can to bump my post count
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Hmmm easy or hard......190 :D
D? One of the easiest of all.
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Translation im generating as many post's as i can to bump my post count
um yeah, that would be incorrect :aok
D? One of the easiest of all.
I actaully find the d harder than the A5/8. Not sure why.
I also find the 38 not easy at all to fight in. I fing the jug a little more easy
on the control, "better" flaps, and it had torque.
Same with the 51.
I have alot of trouble with reversals and over shoots :bhead
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I think a few folks in here underestimate the 205.
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One of my old foes who I would always run into whilst I was driving a 38 was pemquib or something like that.
Always was in the 205. Great guy to fight
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190s are not easy or hard. They are more like pimples. They exist to annoy you until they go away or you pop them. Sure there is the occasional vet that will try and fight in them but for the most part they just hover over a fight looking for a pick and run or die in the ack shooting at the ground. The better ones are the early models. Very good ho miss and die flopping like a fish machines.
Remove them from the game asap please :old: