Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: shoresroad on July 30, 2013, 02:20:18 AM
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Let's start a thread on this new, very powerful feature, in particular for bombing runs with multiple pilot formations. It seems to be somewhat of a mystery and I'm not seeing it used much yet, so I'll start things off as best I understand the feature and please add or correct anything I get wrong or leave out.
This feature allows a formation of pilots to select a wingleader and then move into an advantageous position to that wingleader and then lock in the position of your planes relative to his. At that point the wingleader is now flying all planes in the formation. One huge advantage to this is that when you go to your guns the formations won't drift apart and you have the advantage of concentrated fire from all planes in the formation. The second big advantage is the ability to carpet bomb. The wingleader calibrates his bombsight while the other pilots man their guns, then on the command of the wingleader all pilots can jump to the pilots position (F1) and drop their bombs. No need for each pilot to calibrate their bomb sight as the wingleader has effectively calibrated for all of the planes in the formation when he calibrates his bomb sight.
If you are the wingleader you will need to throttle back about 10% which allows the other planes in the formation to adjust to your movements. If you are full throttle, the other planes have nothing left to make small adjustments in their speed to hold their position relative to the wingleader.
This feature is very simple to use and setup:
1. First you must map the Autopilot Wingman Mode on your keyboard. Here is how to do it:
A. Go to "Options" on your clipboard
B. Select "Controls"
C. Select "Map Keys"
D. Select "Flight" on the left lower side of the keyboard display that will pop up
E. Select "Autopilot Wingman Mode"
F. Hold down the CRTL and W keys at the same time (they will both light up)
G. Press "Set Key"
H. Done!
You should only need to set CRTL-W once and you should be ready to go each time you start AH.
Here is a practical application of the above, but there are many more. You have 5 bomber pilots heading to a target to help bring it down, let's name them:
John
Tom
Dick
Harry
Pete
It is decided John will be the wingleader of the formation, so the other four pilots each use the dot command in the text buffer ".wingman John" (without the quotation marks).
The other four pilots will see John's icon turn white indicating the wingman command has been engaged.
John cuts his throttle by 10% (or goes to "Normal Cruise" rpms and manifold pressure). This allows the other pilots to move into position around John.
For example let's say Tom moves 200 yards to John's left, and Dick moves 200 yards to John's right forming a shallow "V" formation. Harry moves directly behind and above John by 400 yards, and Pete moves directly behind and below John by 400 yards. Harry and Pete have filled in the gap in the rear of the "V" both high and low and all pilots can bring guns to bear on just about every angle of attack from interceptors and their entire formation is only about 400 yards in size. As each pilot finds his position relative to John he holds down CRTL-W to turn on the Autopilot Wingman Mode and at that point John is now flying that pilot's planes. To break the CRTL-W lock simply touch your joystick while in the pilots seat, or go to your bombsight and you are flying your own planes again. This allows you to make adjustments to your position or bomb independently and then hit CRTL-W again when you are ready to lock back into the formation.
This holds the formation incredibly tight (as long as John doesn't make any radical maneuvers) allowing the other pilots to go to their guns without the formation drifting apart. John can also set his autopilot and man his guns also. Imagine the defensive fire of 5 B-17's holding this formation in route to their target.
Now the formation is nearing their target and they want to level the city at the strats or some other target. Harry and Pete swing out of their high and low rear positions and take positions to the left and right of Tom and Dick. The entire group adjusts the width of their formation to their liking and resets the Autopilot Wingman Mode by hitting CRTL-W again. John is now flying all planes again, and this allows John to calibrate the center of the target while the other pilots keep a lookout from their gun positions or F3 knowing that the group will hit everything the width of two formations to the left and right of John. Add more pilots and cut a wider path or split the formation to hit multiple targets.
I'll stop here and let others jump in with more and better ideas on how to use this powerful new command. I have flown in these Wingman Autopilot Mode formations with devastating defensive and bombing results. And then I have continued to fly with some groups that aren't using it with the usual results of being picked apart piecemeal by fighters as our formations drifted apart while we were in our guns either in route or over the target. The difference is night and day.
P.S. I have also started a new squad "Rough Puppies" that will be running Wingman Autopilot Mode bombing raids to the Strats and in support of Base Captures. Send me a PM if you are interested or look me up in the MA :aok
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Good luck with the new squad. Which country? :)
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I wonder who put these crazy ideas into your head badger! :noid
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Shores, fine summary :aok :aok
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In carpet bombing, I wonder if lag would cause each pilot to drop a few seconds after the flight leader drops.
Is lag long enough to cause that?
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Will Harry not be dropping directly onto Pete? :)
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Sounds to me like the strats wont be receiving much damage. Carpet bombing will not be effective, except for the few bombs that may find a target. My suggestion is to use it how the rest of the players in the game use it, and that is to get to target. Once, you are at the target for the love of god have everyone calibrate and drop on individual targets and meet up after runs.(unless you will be bombing my strats feel free to carpet bomb)
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In carpet bombing, I wonder if lag would cause each pilot to drop a few seconds after the flight leader drops.
Is lag long enough to cause that?
A few seconds is highly unlikely, until really crappy connections are involved.
I think on the factories (previously undamaged) and with the appropriate loadout it could actually work nicely.
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Carpet bombing will not be effective, except for the few bombs that may find a target
There are many scenarios where carpet bombing is used. Or, if you are going for wide spread destruction you can carpet bomb and level a base "if" the formations are spaced correctly. This new feature helps out greatly in those conditions.
Nice write up shore.
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I find that flying at cruise will keep the formation intact during turns (and in general flight) much better than a mere 10% decrease in throttle. The other thing I've noted is it's best to just auto climb individually to target alt before using the wingman command to prevent folks from falling behind due to the rocking that it puts you into.
The only downside is during bomb drop, as we are nice, straight and level target drones while waiting for the salvo to finish. I made a wish little while ago about it; If you .salvo your bombs (IE: .salvo 12), when you initiate the drop from either bombardier or pilot's seat, the bombs will continue to drop after you have jumped back into your guns.
All that being said, hope ye Rook. We need dedicated raider's. :aok
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This holds the formation incredibly tight (as long as John doesn't make any radical maneuvers) allowing the other pilots to go to their guns without the formation drifting apart. John can also set his autopilot and man his guns also. Imagine the defensive fire of 5 B-17's holding this formation in route to their target.
You mean the defensive fire of 15 B-17s. Players bring 3 each.
And this is my problem with the auto formation function. Buff guns are already way over effective. Drones were added to strengthen the defensive power of a single player and in addition giving him "3 strikes" before he gets the short trip to the tower. Combine drones formation with player auto formation and you get one ridiculous flying ack cloud. What started as a combat flight sim has shifted into too many things that do not include flying. Now even a bomber pilot does not actually fly his bomber, but slave them to another player. He is basically a gunner that brought 3 (3, not 2) drones with him.
My personal opinion is that this function should be enabled only if the player does not have drones with him.
Now for the fighters - how to attack such a formation?
Probably the best thing to do is to go for the leader first and aim for his wingtip. If he loses a wingtip his plane will tip over and hopefully will cause ALL formations slaved to him to roll over as well. If he is smart he will bail out immediately - if not, that could be hilarious to watch :)
Hopefully, if all 3 bombers of the leader are destroyed, the formation will start to disperse, especially if they were tilted when the last of the leader bombers died. I doubt they will be very fast in assigning a new leader and activating the auto formation on him.
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You mean the defensive fire of 15 B-17s. Players bring 3 each.
And this is my problem with the auto formation function. Buff guns are already way over effective. Drones were added to strengthen the defensive power of a single player and in addition giving him "3 strikes" before he gets the short trip to the tower. Combine drones formation with player auto formation and you get one ridiculous flying ack cloud. What started as a combat flight sim has shifted into too many things that do not include flying. Now even a bomber pilot does not actually fly his bomber, but slave them to another player. He is basically a gunner that brought 3 (3, not 2) drones with him.
My personal opinion is that this function should be enabled only if the player does not have drones with him.
Now for the fighters - how to attack such a formation?
Probably the best thing to do is to go for the leader first and aim for his wingtip. If he loses a wingtip his plane will tip over and hopefully will cause ALL formations slaved to him to roll over as well. If he is smart he will bail out immediately - if not, that could be hilarious to watch :)
Hopefully, if all 3 bombers of the leader are destroyed, the formation will start to disperse, especially if they were tilted when the last of the leader bombers died. I doubt they will be very fast in assigning a new leader and activating the auto formation on him.
:airplane: where in world did you get the idea that shooting off a wing tip would cause a B-17 to roll inverted! Won't happen! If you shoot off the amount of wing between 1 and 2 or 3 and 4, you might make it roll, but not if the pilot is up to snuff!
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Let's start a thread on this new, very powerful feature, in particular for bombing runs with multiple pilot formations. It seems to be somewhat of a mystery and I'm not seeing it used much yet, so I'll start things off as best I understand the feature and please add or correct anything I get wrong or leave out.
This feature allows a formation of pilots to select a wingleader and then move into an advantageous position to that wingleader and then lock in the position of your planes relative to his. At that point the wingleader is now flying all planes in the formation. One huge advantage to this is that when you go to your guns the formations won't drift apart and you have the advantage of concentrated fire from all planes in the formation. The second big advantage is the ability to carpet bomb. The wingleader calibrates his bombsight while the other pilots man their guns, then on the command of the wingleader all pilots can jump to the pilots position (F1) and drop their bombs. No need for each pilot to calibrate their bomb sight as the wingleader has effectively calibrated for all of the planes in the formation when he calibrates his bomb sight.
If you are the wingleader you will need to throttle back about 10% which allows the other planes in the formation to adjust to your movements. If you are full throttle, the other planes have nothing left to make small adjustments in their speed to hold their position relative to the wingleader.
This feature is very simple to use and setup:
1. First you must map the Autopilot Wingman Mode on your keyboard. Here is how to do it:
A. Go to "Options" on your clipboard
B. Select "Controls"
C. Select "Map Keys"
D. Select "Flight" on the left lower side of the keyboard display that will pop up
E. Select "Autopilot Wingman Mode"
F. Hold down the CRTL and W keys at the same time (they will both light up)
G. Press "Set Key"
H. Done!
You should only need to set CRTL-W once and you should be ready to go each time you start AH.
Here is a practical application of the above, but there are many more. You have 5 bomber pilots heading to a target to help bring it down, let's name them:
John
Tom
Dick
Harry
Pete
It is decided John will be the wingleader of the formation, so the other four pilots each use the dot command in the text buffer ".wingman John" (without the quotation marks).
The other four pilots will see John's icon turn white indicating the wingman command has been engaged.
John cuts his throttle by 10% (or goes to "Normal Cruise" rpms and manifold pressure). This allows the other pilots to move into position around John.
For example let's say Tom moves 200 yards to John's left, and Dick moves 200 yards to John's right forming a shallow "V" formation. Harry moves directly behind and above John by 400 yards, and Pete moves directly behind and below John by 400 yards. Harry and Pete have filled in the gap in the rear of the "V" both high and low and all pilots can bring guns to bear on just about every angle of attack from interceptors and their entire formation is only about 400 yards in size. As each pilot finds his position relative to John he holds down CRTL-W to turn on the Autopilot Wingman Mode and at that point John is now flying that pilot's planes. To break the CRTL-W lock simply touch your joystick while in the pilots seat, or go to your bombsight and you are flying your own planes again. This allows you to make adjustments to your position or bomb independently and then hit CRTL-W again when you are ready to lock back into the formation.
This holds the formation incredibly tight (as long as John doesn't make any radical maneuvers) allowing the other pilots to go to their guns without the formation drifting apart. John can also set his autopilot and man his guns also. Imagine the defensive fire of 5 B-17's holding this formation in route to their target.
Now the formation is nearing their target and they want to level the city at the strats or some other target. Harry and Pete swing out of their high and low rear positions and take positions to the left and right of Tom and Dick. The entire group adjusts the width of their formation to their liking and resets the Autopilot Wingman Mode by hitting CRTL-W again. John is now flying all planes again, and this allows John to calibrate the center of the target while the other pilots keep a lookout from their gun positions or F3 knowing that the group will hit everything the width of two formations to the left and right of John. Add more pilots and cut a wider path or split the formation to hit multiple targets.
I'll stop here and let others jump in with more and better ideas on how to use this powerful new command. I have flown in these Wingman Autopilot Mode formations with devastating defensive and bombing results. And then I have continued to fly with some groups that aren't using it with the usual results of being picked apart piecemeal by fighters as our formations drifted apart while we were in our guns either in route or over the target. The difference is night and day.
P.S. I have also started a new squad "Rough Puppies" that will be running Wingman Autopilot Mode bombing raids to the Strats and in support of Base Captures. Send me a PM if you are interested or look me up in the MA :aok
:airplane: Great Post!! That's the kind of post we need more of in this forum! Clear and to the point!
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nice write up badger! Enjoyed reading it. :cheers:
:salute
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Good luck with the new squad. Which country? :)
Thanks, Bobcat.
I don't know which country we'll end up in. I'm flying Bishop right now but the end country will depend on where the interest lies (both in inquiries to join the squad and pilots joining missions on an ad-hoc basis). If we rotate countries it will be slowly, as I think most pilots like to have a "home" country. That will be something I will discuss with the squad. I didn't want this post to turn into a recruiting thread, so I'll post something in the Squadrons section in the next day or two for squad type questions.
Badger :salute
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I wonder who put these crazy ideas into your head badger! :noid
You did, Fish :lol
Fish lead the first of these missions I had ever flew, and now I can't get enough :)
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Shores, fine summary :aok :aok
Thanks, Hap :salute
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Will Harry not be dropping directly onto Pete? :)
Harry and Pete were in the high and low rear positions for defensive purposes during transit:
"Now the formation is nearing their target and they want to level the city at the strats or some other target. Harry and Pete swing out of their high and low rear positions and take positions to the left and right of Tom and Dick."
And this is just one example. I've been looking at WWII bomber formations on the web and there are many options depending on the number of pilots available for the mission.
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Sounds to me like the strats wont be receiving much damage. Carpet bombing will not be effective, except for the few bombs that may find a target. My suggestion is to use it how the rest of the players in the game use it, and that is to get to target. Once, you are at the target for the love of god have everyone calibrate and drop on individual targets and meet up after runs.(unless you will be bombing my strats feel free to carpet bomb)
Hi John,
You're right, there will be times where carpet bombing will not be the answer and instead each pilot can take control of their planes for precision bombing also, but still enjoy the defensive advantage of formation flying in transit to and from the target.
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Nice write up shore.
Thanks, ROC :salute
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You mean the defensive fire of 15 B-17s. Players bring 3 each.
And this is my problem with the auto formation function. Buff guns are already way over effective. Drones were added to strengthen the defensive power of a single player and in addition giving him "3 strikes" before he gets the short trip to the tower. Combine drones formation with player auto formation and you get one ridiculous flying ack cloud. What started as a combat flight sim has shifted into too many things that do not include flying. Now even a bomber pilot does not actually fly his bomber, but slave them to another player. He is basically a gunner that brought 3 (3, not 2) drones with him.
I don't think this will turn into indestructible death star formations. I was in a formation of seven B-26's (21 planes) that was completely destroyed by interceptors. Some interceptors have cannons that can reach out and kill bombers beyond the effective range of the bomber's guns. What I think this does is level the playing field and add an element of realism. IRL the bombers had pilots to hold the formations together and gunners to fight. In AH it is often hard to find folks to fly in the gunner position only. So as pilots go to their guns the formations drift apart, and once the formations have separated there are many fighter pilots that can make an easy meal of a single formation of three, not to mention multiple interceptors. Bomber pilots don't up their bombers to become kills, they want to come home :lol
What I think this could mean is a whole lot of fun! These big formations show a big dar bar over multiple sectors which can attract many interceptors. The formations also need escort fighters to knock down the 410's sitting out there at 1.5k sniping one bomber after another. I have been on some large missions which have become epic battles at 20k, with interceptors tearing through the formations with escorts in pursuit and guns blazing everywhere. In the end the mission is not destroyed but heavily damaged with maybe a 50% loss of pilots and drones, but also many interceptors and escorts shot down and hopefully fun for all :)
This also makes missions with the lessor bombers like the He111 and Betty more feasible. Right now a lone formation of He111's is often cannon fodder. A formation of 10 He111 pilots (30 He111's) tucked in tight together with a few escorts would be a different story. So hopefully we will see the use of lessor bombers more often in the MA now that we have this feature. I'm certainly going to up these types of formations for some variety and challenge :)
On the other side of the equation, I watched a large formation of over 20 B-24's and B-17's on a strat run recently. They weren't holding tight formations, and almost none, if any, returned home as they were slowly picked away at by fighters all the way there and back.
I guess we'll have to wait and see. I doubt there will be enough interest in large bomber formations to sway the balance of power in the MA dramatically towards bombers. But it might make life more interesting for bomber pilots and fighter pilots to boot when they do appear!
Badger :salute
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:airplane: Great Post!! That's the kind of post we need more of in this forum! Clear and to the point!
Thanks, Earl :salute
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nice write up badger! Enjoyed reading it. :cheers:
:salute
Thanks, Blu :salute
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At first I thought this feature was kind of "gamey". But after seeing this explanation, I can see how it does mimic what would be flown in real life. U.S. bombers adopted the tactic of flying in formations which maximized the protective firepower of group working together. This new feature allows you to use that same tactic.
Now it's up to us fighter pilots to put up a good fight. :x
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I have been on some large missions which have become epic battles at 20k, with interceptors tearing through the formations with escorts in pursuit and guns blazing everywhere.
At first I thought this feature was kind of "gamey". But after seeing this explanation, I can see how it does mimic what would be flown in real life.
WOW, what a cool and fun feature this sounds like. Who'd have thought.
I think something was accidentally overlooked though. It should have been more like this...
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aviation/197669d1333267490t-ww2-us-heavy-bomber-group-organization-etc-formation-s.jpg)
Where pilots choose a place in the formation, slot 1, 2, 3...
Or fighters choose their slots from formations like these...
(http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/explorers_history/battle_of_britain_hurricane_fighter_formation.jpg)
(http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/05/3/6/6/3387485354959735.jpg)
(http://acepilots.com/finger4.jpg)
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One thing is that fighter pilots forget is to successfully live through a large engagement with bombers is to have 3 or more planes attack the bomber formation at the same time. Preferably 4 flight elements. 2 elements attacking from a high four and eight o'clock and two attacking from low four and eight positions. This means the bombers SA will deteriorate at a rapid speed. Radio chatter will be over run with many call and gunners will be confused on whom to fire. Ultimately what this means is you will have 2 fighters attacking from the high 8 and 2 fighters attacking from the low eight etc with the 4 o'clock position. Fighters should achieve at least 350mph for blow through of formation. Also attack should be timed for max SA degeneration. Now lone wolf should try this. There is a reason that wolves live in packs same here :x
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Thanks for posting the bomber formation diagram, Muzik :)
I have seen this diagram and hopefully as we get better we can run formations like this! I know that will be the goal of my squad in the long run (of course depending on the number of pilots we have participating in the mission).
Badger :salute
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For those interested, here is the new Squad Recruiting Thread for the Rough Puppies:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,351824.0.html
Badger :salute
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Thanks for posting the bomber formation diagram, Muzik :)
I have seen this diagram and hopefully as we get better we can run formations like this! I know that will be the goal of my squad in the long run (of course depending on the number of pilots we have participating in the mission).
Badger :salute
No problem. Hopefully someday it wont be so tedious to get into formation if Htc adds formation patterns that allow players to just choose a slot when nearly in position.
Formations will look better an more professional. It would be cool if some day, the gaggles were in nice formations the majority of the time. It would certainly make a better impression on new players.
Have they worked out the bugs in the formation system yet?
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Now for the fighters - how to attack such a formation?
Hopefully, if all 3 bombers of the leader are destroyed, the formation will start to disperse, especially if they were tilted when the last of the leader bombers died. I doubt they will be very fast in assigning a new leader and activating the auto formation on him.
Update:
This did become a problem so we now operate in sections within a single formation. For example, in the case of 9 bomber pilots in a formation the Section 1 leader has 2 pilots attached to his left and right flanks. The Section 2 leader (following and attached to the Section 1 leader) has 2 pilots attached to his left and right flanks. The Section 3 leader (following and attached to the Section 2 leader) has 2 pilots attached to his left and right flanks. This gives us a formation 3 pilots abreast and 3 pilots deep (3 x 3) that is quit formidable. We try to keep the formation symmetrical regardless of the number of bomber pilots as we have found that a symmetrical formation provides the best defensive protection with no outliers to be singled out.
With this chain of command within the formation there is very little chaos if a section leader loses all three planes, and there is an immediate response to who's next in command with easy re-attachment by orphaned pilots to maintain formation integrity.
Does this create a "deathstar." No, but rather parity from what I've seen, and we can create and maintain some nifty 8th AAF style formations. We tend to bring home about 50% of the bomber pilots who set off on raids with us (less with smaller formations and more with larger formations). I think HiTech did a great job in adding this feature as it gives organized bomber pilots a 50/50 chance of surviving a Strat raid rather than becoming nom-noms as is often the case in less organized raids, in particular going in at 25k looking for a fight in addition to dropping bombs.
Badger :salute