Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: earl1937 on July 31, 2013, 08:04:36 AM
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:airplane: Which American fighter had more total air to air kills than the P-51?
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The F6F
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The F6F
:airplane: You sir, are correct!
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:airplane: Which American fighter had more total air to air kills than the P-51?
In single theater operations, the Hellcat would be number one with 5,168 kills in to the PTO, with the Mustang coming in second with 4,950 kills in the ETO. However, if you were to combine all theater of operations, the Mustang would be number one with 5,954 kills spread out through the ETO, PTO, CBI and MTO with the Hellcat coming in second with 5,168 in the PTO and ETO.
So to answer your question, the Mustang had the most kills of any US fighter during the war.
ack-ack
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Which model of the F6F and P-51 had the most kills?
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Does this include other nations who used both these planes?
:salute
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Do we really need 4 new threads a day about random trivia nonsense in this forum?
Paint me as the badguy for saying it, but do we? Really?
I, for one, don't think so.
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:furious
Do we really need 4 new threads a day about random trivia nonsense in this forum?
Paint me as the badguy for saying it, but do we? Really?
I, for one, don't think so.
:furious Well, sir, don't recall any requirement for anyone to read any posts in this forum, but as for myself, I just try to post something that is informative and sometimes useful, especially to young guys who have just been bitten with the aviation bug! Not sure what kind of posts meets your requirements, so maybe you will enlighten us!
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:furious :furious Well, sir, don't recall any requirement for anyone to read any posts in this forum, but as for myself, I just try to post something that is informative and sometimes useful, especially to young guys who have just been bitten with the aviation bug! Not sure what kind of posts meets your requirements, so maybe you will enlighten us!
Earl,
Don't mind Krusty,he really is..... :O well krusty....
And Krusty, Earl deserves your respect,not only is he your elder,he has RL experiences that are beyond you or I!
:salute
PS: I enjoy Earls little tidbits and I'd hate to see him stifled.
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Do we really need 4 new threads a day about random trivia nonsense in this forum?
Paint me as the badguy for saying it, but do we? Really?
I, for one, don't think so.
Why not? Is this not the forum for aircraft and vehicles? If you don't want to take part, don't read the thread.
ack-ack
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Why not? Is this not the forum for aircraft and vehicles? If you don't want to take part, don't read the thread.
Agreed. Or you can re-read all the perk-this-plane threads if the trivia bores you.
- oldman
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. . . Paint me as the badguy . . .
Ok, you are so painted. Now, go away.
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Yes, this is about aircraft and vehicles, but not about trivia contests. Those would better be suited to the O'club, don't you think?
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Which model of the F6F and P-51 had the most kills?
Just throwing a guess out there, F6F-3 and P-51D
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Maybe a better number would be to take the number of kills and divide it by the total planes by model built for the war. Average Kills per plane would give a better number one rating I would think.
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In single theater operations, the Hellcat would be number one with 5,168 kills in to the PTO, with the Mustang coming in second with 4,950 kills in the ETO. However, if you were to combine all theater of operations, the Mustang would be number one with 5,954 kills spread out through the ETO, PTO, CBI and MTO with the Hellcat coming in second with 5,168 in the PTO and ETO.
So to answer your question, the Mustang had the most kills of any US fighter during the war.
ack-ack
:airplane: Ack, you are correct, I just were considering the PTO and the ETO! But as you correctly point out, your figures are the correct ones. I would also have to include the opposition each of those aircraft had also. The German aircraft were a lot harder to kill than the Japanese.
Do you happen to know the K/D ratio of the 51 against the Japanese?
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how dare you come here and talk about.......planes :furious :furious :furious
...what the hell is this site for for............planes........ . :headscratch:
oh ya.......... it is........................... ....
:rofl :rofl @ Krusty
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Do we really need 4 new threads a day about random trivia
As opposed to . . . ? ;)
The BB is a blizzard of various topics. It's so very easy to read only ones that are of some interest, might as well have lots and lots of topics.
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Krusty, I think that you would have preferred the old GEnie system (from the old Air Warrior days). It had topics, but the way it was organized, there were fewer topics with a lot more messages in each one. I liked that, as it gave discussions a lot more lifetime, lessened the prevalence of many topics on the same subject again and again, and made searching for information easier.
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Do we really need 4 new threads a day about random trivia nonsense in this forum?
Paint me as the badguy for saying it, but do we? Really?
I, for one, don't think so.
ya we could have more "pizzin' and moaning" posts like the one quoted above. :P
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:airplane: Ack, you are correct, I just were considering the PTO and the ETO! But as you correctly point out, your figures are the correct ones. I would also have to include the opposition each of those aircraft had also. The German aircraft were a lot harder to kill than the Japanese.
Do you happen to know the K/D ratio of the 51 against the Japanese?
The Mustang destroyed 221 Japanese aircraft and suffered 114 combat losses. Unfortunately, I haven't found a break down of the combat losses to see how many were shot down by Japanese aircraft opposed to being shot down by AAA. So taking that into account, using the 114 number for combat losses, the Mustang had a 1.93:1 kill ratio in the PTO but again, it's probably higher when you break down the combat losses into losses from Japanese fighters and losses from AAA.
ack-ack
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Personally I think we need more posts about Midwhomever, Greycleft, and that other douchbag.
These planes are so WWII.
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:furious :furious Well, sir, don't recall any requirement for anyone to read any posts in this forum, but as for myself, I just try to post something that is informative and sometimes useful, especially to young guys who have just been bitten with the aviation bug! Not sure what kind of posts meets your requirements, so maybe you will enlighten us!
Earl, keep it coming. Always good stuff from you. Don't worry about the wind squeal from the window seal. :aok
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I like this topic, too -- thanks, Earl.
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Only gamers are not interested in history trivia.
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The kind of empirical "who's best?" question implied here is muddled by the fact that,
A:Good numbers for kills divided by subtype are hard to come by
B: Conditions varied by theater
C: Opponent varied by theater
D: Ground kills are present in some ETO tallies, maybe just to make the B-38 pilots feel better... :bolt:
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10% of the F6F losses in air to air combat were shot down by one man.
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10% of the F6F losses in air to air combat were shot down by one man.
:airplane: Can you share that Japanese pilot's name with us? I think I know which you refere to, but would like to see your answer.
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Which fighter scored the most victories of any aircraft in history? In one theater of operations it had a 21:1 kill ratio. The top 100 aces who flew it scored more than one hundred kills each... or in other word more than the total of the P-51 and F6F combined... ;)
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Which fighter scored the most victories of any aircraft in history? In one theater of operations it had a 21:1 kill ratio. The top 100 aces who flew it scored more than one hundred kills each... or in other word more than the total of the P-51 and F6F combined... ;)
The F-35? ;)
Well durr obviously a German pilot will be better overall due to how often the flew as oppose to allied pilots :rolleyes:
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Which fighter scored the most victories of any aircraft in history? In one theater of operations it had a 21:1 kill ratio. The top 100 aces who flew it scored more than one hundred kills each... or in other word more than the total of the P-51 and F6F combined... ;)
Bf109.
It also has the honor of being the fighter with the most losses in combat.
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Touché ;)
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:airplane: Can you share that Japanese pilot's name with us? I think I know which you refere to, but would like to see your answer.
Same guy shot down 25% of the F4U lost in air to air combat.
Tetsuzō Iwamoto
It looks like he flew Zeros almost exclusively.
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Which fighter scored the most victories of any aircraft in history? In one theater of operations it had a 21:1 kill ratio. The top 100 aces who flew it scored more than one hundred kills each... or in other word more than the total of the P-51 and F6F combined... ;)
It was a shark with freaking lazer beams on it's head.
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Same guy shot down 25% of the F4U lost in air to air combat.
Tetsuzō Iwamoto
It looks like he flew Zeros almost exclusively.
Japanese were notorious over claimers.
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Japanese were notorious over claimers.
In addition to the Japanese habit of assigning kills to the unit instead of the individual pilot makes verifying Japanese individual claims difficult.
ack-ack
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The kills mentioned are confirmed by U.S.
He has 80 confirmed kills while his diary has over 200 claimed.......which he never shared with anybody and was found after he died.
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The kills mentioned are confirmed by U.S.
He has 80 confirmed kills while his diary has over 200 claimed.......which he never shared with anybody and was found after he died.
Historians who have researched Iwamoto have concluded that he had between 80 and 87 kills.
He claimed to have shot down what amounts to 17% of all F4Us and F6Fs lost in aerial combat... Almost exactly 1 out of every 6. Does anyone really believe this nonsense?
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Sorta off topic, but who has th most amount of kills on bombers?
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If you count light bombers it will be one of the Eastern Front aces, but if you're thinking of heavy bombers it's Eder: http://www.luftwaffe.cz/eder.html
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He claimed to have shot down what amounts to 17% of all F4Us and F6Fs lost in aerial combat... Almost exactly 1 out of every 6. Does anyone really believe this nonsense?
Dude. People believe that 100 German pilots shot down 15,000 allied aircraft. This is nothing.
- oldman
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Historians who have researched Iwamoto have concluded that he had between 80 and 87 kills.
He claimed to have shot down what amounts to 17% of all F4Us and F6Fs lost in aerial combat... Almost exactly 1 out of every 6. Does anyone really believe this nonsense?
Not quite sure how to parse your post, Widewing.
Do you mean that historians conclude that his true score was 80 to 87? If that is seen as his true score, which Icepac seemed to use as his reference as well, is the 1 in 6 kills of an F4U or F6F claim based on the 80 to 87 historians say he got or on the 202 kills his journal claimed? I think you're saying it is nonsense as it is based on his journal in which he overclaimed*. I'll note I don't know the loss numbers for the F4U or F6F.
*I am not suggesting he intentionally overclaimed. In fact I highly doubt it as he kept the journal to himself, but it is an easy thing to mistake an aircraft rolling and diving away, streaming something behind it as having been a kill rather than simply damaged when in the thick of combat. In fact, if the 80-87 number is his true kill count then his claim of 202 would be a lot less of an overclaim than Japanese average.
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If you count light bombers it will be one of the Eastern Front aces, but if you're thinking of heavy bombers it's Eder: http://www.luftwaffe.cz/eder.html
many thanks. :aok
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Speaking of the F6F, I was watching the Zeno's Warbirds video on familiarization with the Hellcat, which can be found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUziAyx6hG4, and it mentioned at about 9:05 that the F6F only had a down and up position for flaps. Now this looks like an F6F-3 so I was wondering was this changed on the -5?
On a different note, why was the F6F so much more of a stable platform at low speeds than the F4U? Was it simply the larger propeller on the Hog causing much greater torque, or was there any instability caused by the gull wings as compared to the more traditional design of the F6F.
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Not quite sure how to parse your post, Widewing.
Do you mean that historians conclude that his true score was 80 to 87? If that is seen as his true score, which Icepac seemed to use as his reference as well, is the 1 in 6 kills of an F4U or F6F claim based on the 80 to 87 historians say he got or on the 202 kills his journal claimed? I think you're saying it is nonsense as it is based on his journal in which he overclaimed*. I'll note I don't know the loss numbers for the F4U or F6F.
*I am not suggesting he intentionally overclaimed. In fact I highly doubt it as he kept the journal to himself, but it is an easy thing to mistake an aircraft rolling and diving away, streaming something behind it as having been a kill rather than simply damaged when in the thick of combat. In fact, if the 80-87 number is his true kill count then his claim of 202 would be a lot less of an overclaim than Japanese average.
I can cite a considerable number of air battles where the Japanese over-claimed anywhere from 200% to two orders of magnitude. In some cases, no Allied aircraft were lost but that didn't eliminate the claims. It is sometimes mind boggling. One instance was a battle with the 49th FG, where the Japanese claimed 8 kills. Actual losses were zero. Yet, I'm sure the credit for 8 kills was awarded. The 49th claimed 4 kills for an actual 3 kills and two damaged. The 49th had gun cameras, and the Japanese didn't. They almost never used gun cameras in combat, only in training. Thus, in the absence of an actual wreck, there is no objective evidence to support claims. The lack of objective evidence puts everything into the doubt column.
My reference to being nonsense was in regard to Iwamoto's claims of F4Us and F6Fs. The 80 to 87 count comes from differences between historians. Sakaida says "about 80". This includes all types, and most historians find that early war claims were more accurate than late war claims, largely because much of the late war records were destroyed and commands would award kills liberally for morale reasons. I suspect that Iwamoto claimed nearly everything he shot at.
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Speaking of the F6F, I was watching the Zeno's Warbirds video on familiarization with the Hellcat, which can be found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUziAyx6hG4, and it mentioned at about 9:05 that the F6F only had a down and up position for flaps. Now this looks like an F6F-3 so I was wondering was this changed on the -5?
On a different note, why was the F6F so much more of a stable platform at low speeds than the F4U? Was it simply the larger propeller on the Hog causing much greater torque, or was there any instability caused by the gull wings as compared to the more traditional design of the F6F.
TonyJoey, the F6F-5 had infinitely adjustable electric flaps. They could be toggled to any position from full up to full down.
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Do you think he actually got 80 or so (the 202 is obviously not correct) or do you think it was more in the 20-40 range?
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Do you think he actually got 80 or so (the 202 is obviously not correct) or do you think it was more in the 20-40 range?
I haven't seen the work of the historians who did the research, so I couldn't argue with their findings, be they hard numbers or estimates.
What I would like to see is the dates of his claims of U.S. aircraft. Those I can check against unit records. I'd also like to see his unit's claims for comparison.
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Overclaiming and cheating where common on all sides of the war. German system where most robust where you needed someone else to confirm kills seeing it crash.
In he book " a higher call" 2 german guys of jg27 cheated by confirming each others kills.they got caught...
If 600 B17 gunners shooting at the same 109 and it explode, a good bunch would claim that guy as his kill
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I'm pretty sure the 80 figure was arrived at by knowing the names of the pilots who were downed and debrief of the downed pilot's fellow pilots and comparing them to Iwamoto's claims for the same day and finding the descriptions matching.
The names of the winners and losers of many shootdowns are known.
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Overclaiming and cheating where common on all sides of the war. German system where most robust where you needed someone else to confirm kills seeing it crash.
In he book " a higher call" 2 german guys of jg27 cheated by confirming each others kills.they got caught...
If 600 B17 gunners shooting at the same 109 and it explode, a good bunch would claim that guy as his kill
The praise for the Germans in this regard is a myth, they over claimed just like everybody else. All one has to do is look at their Battle of Britain claims to see that. The RAF actually under claimed for the first month of the battle, but then reversed that with their own massive over claiming the the second and third months of the battle.
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On a different note, why was the F6F so much more of a stable platform at low speeds than the F4U? Was it simply the larger propeller on the Hog causing much greater torque, or was there any instability caused by the gull wings as compared to the more traditional design of the F6F.
F6F had a larger wing area (resulting in a slightly lower wingloading) and a completely different design. This great stability that is often praised, also limited the roll rate of the F6F which is often cited as one of its shortcomings especially when compared to the F4U. The F4U did not have more torque than the F6F. They used the exact same engine and the props did not make such a huge difference in this regard.
Vought simply forgot that they were making a carrier plane and instead just made the best fighter they could, that may also land on carriers. This is why F4Us that had flying prototypes way before the F6F was even considered, reached carrier squadrons after the F6F already dominated that role. Grumman had a lot of experience with carrier planes and knew better what were the correct priorities for this kind of planes.
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The praise for the Germans in this regard is a myth, they over claimed just like everybody else. All one has to do is look at their Battle of Britain claims to see that. The RAF actually under claimed for the first month of the battle, but then reversed that with their own massive over claiming the the second and third months of the battle.
The German verification system wasn't yet in effect by the time of BoB. Later in the war an actual wreck had to be located to award a victory. On the Eastern Front the Luftwaffe claimed the destruction of 77 000 soviet aircraft, including 45 000 in air combat. The Soviets claim they lost a total of 106 000 aircraft to all causes, including 46 000 lost in air combat. (Krivosheyev, Grif sekretnosti sniat, 1993).
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Later in the war an actual wreck had to be located to award a victory.
I thought the Luftwaffe required human confirmation (either wingman, squad mate or ground observer) if gun camera footage wasn't available to get credit for kills that resulted in an explosion in mid-air or pilot/crew bail out.
Then there is the complicated point system the Luftwaffe used in the Western Front for medals but that's a different subject.
ack-ack
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Early in the war only a witness was required, but later they also required an actual wreck. As their war situation in the East deteriorated it became increasingly difficult for Luftwaffe pilots to get their claims verified. Over the Reich is was much easier as air defense units/observers usually could pinpoint where Allied aircraft went down (these were also salvaged and recycled for their metal).
The point of the system was to ensure that no more victories were awarded than wrecks found and documented. After the BoB German military intelligence became wary of overestimating enemy losses.
Oh, and it could take months, more then a year in some cases, for a German pilot to get his claims approved through the system. The Abschusskommission, which received all reports on crashed aircraft remains found by search units checked conflicting claims between AAA batteries and fighter pilots, and awarded credit for the victory to one claimant or the other. This system ensured that no more credits would be awarded than wrecks found.
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The praise for the Germans in this regard is a myth, they over claimed just like everybody else. All one has to do is look at their Battle of Britain claims to see that. The RAF actually under claimed for the first month of the battle, but then reversed that with their own massive over claiming the the second and third months of the battle.
im sure you may be able to confirm this but was Finland the only country in the war to claim less than what they actually shot down?
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Do you think he actually got 80 or so (the 202 is obviously not correct) or do you think it was more in the 20-40 range?
Here's something that drives me nuts when it comes to Japanese claims. In this case, Iwamoto.
He claims to have shot down 55 SBDs, 7 of those unconfirmed.
Here's the rub... The Navy lost a total of 43 SBDs to Japanese fighters during the entire war.
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/26ec/x179c2d0983r2cgfg.jpg)
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Based on that I would guess his real count was in the 20-40 range.
I recall reading that while Sakai is often credited with 64 kills he would not actually claim a specific number himself and I've seen people estimate his real total at about 25.
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The German verification system wasn't yet in effect by the time of BoB. Later in the war an actual wreck had to be located to award a victory.
I don't wish to sound rude, but that's crap. Caldwell documented at least one instance where "elite" JG26 pilots claimed air-to-air kills from strafing wrecked gliders. And I have no idea how the Nazis were expected to comb the Eastern Front looking for downed Soviet aircraft when things were collapsing around them. "Ja, Herr Hauptmann, I understand that the Third Guards Tank Army is on its way, but we really must check out these claims."
You can believe what the Germans claimed their kill confirmation requirements were....or not. Unlike the British and Americans, they did not have routine gun camera films to back up their claims.
- oldman
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You can believe what you want, I don't really care. Fact remains that the Germans claimed fewer soviet aircraft destroyed in air combat than what the Soviet records show they lost in air combat. The Germans were under-claiming.