Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: RotBaron on August 03, 2013, 02:50:02 AM
-
If you're skilled or an expert in the F4U -4 I hope you'll take the time to read. Sorry, I know it's lengthy, but a good deal of thought went into it. :salute in advance.
I've been flying the -4 a little bit lately. I'm not terribly concerned with losing the perks, but I don't want to give them away either.
Upon reading Soda's write up I thought wow this must be a fantastic plane and well worth the perks. Then I encountered its' common rivals; P-51D being the most common, La-7, 109K-4.
The reason I listed the above is primarily based on speed, I'm sure you could put a Spit in there or maybe something else, but I don't fly them and I'm not familiar enough, thus I can only make my argument with the above; I know them well.
So based off of HiTech's data and the old Gonzoville charts, I'm at a loss why this plane is perked. Yes it would dominate carrier based attacks if it weren't, however it really doesn't outperform any of the aforementioned. Here's why:
A. It is last in this group even with WEP below 5K in speed. Not using WEP it's 3rd, the K-4 being just slightly slower.
B. At military it only begins to to be first in speed at ~17k. With WEP it's 2nd at ~15k, and never eclipses the K-4 (except below 3k - already mentioned.)
C. Climb at Mil to 13k it's 3rd. After 13k it overshadows the P-51 and La-7, but again never the K-4. The climb is where I think it gets very interesting: climb with WEP it's again 3rd until 10k where the La-7 drops off.
In this instance, climb with WEP, it is kind of lackluster (to its' AH rivals)being about 3,800ft/m up to 15k, which is well below the K-4 and below 10k only marginally better than the P51-D.
D. Acceleration at military: it's 3rd throughout the envelope to 300mph.
E. Top end/speed acceleration at 500', it remains 3rd.
F. No flaps turn radius: it's 2nd just barely beating the K-4. With full flaps it's 1st, but of course that's common to all of the Corsair's and one of their greatest strengths.
G. "low alt" (500') top speed it's 3rd, but all are within 20mph of one another.
Finally "lethality" puts it almost squarely with the P-51D, looks like it carries a more bullets total, not sure how much atm - not logged in. However, I think lethality is arbitrary because if you're not hitting the guy in front of you, more bullets aren't really an issue. Also, the K-4's lethality is dependent upon preference, sometimes ppl land/rearm when the cannon is gone depending.
I really started this thread with the intention of getting opinion and help learning to fly it to its' strengths. I welcome any opinions, thoughts, comments and help you can offer. I've been starting with very high alt to make sure P-51's don't get above me and then descending to the fight - BnZ'n.
However, after looking all this data up and giving it consideration, I think this thread could provide us non -4 guys help to learn it, and also make an argument to augment its' perk-ing.
I think the heart of the argument is that it is outclassed by the La-7 in almost every way where ~75% of the fighting is taking place. Once it gets up higher, the P-51 and the K-4 are either better or comparable with varying margins depending on altitude and speed.
So, whatcha think? Only reason I see it perked for is that it would be the dominate plane used off of CVs, but what's most likely to engage it in that scenario; La-7's and Spits...
:airplane:
-
I find once it's flaps our out it's scissors (if done right) are lethal.
I feel it hangs on it's prop better than the pony. La is a different fight and dangerous opponent.
K4 is also dangerous to clap with but f4 will out roll it :aok
not to mentios turn fights better
-
So, it needs to be #1 in every category at all altitudes to justify its perk tag? and dont forget that you are comparing to La7 and K4, both of which are perk worthy in my view. It is better than the P-51 in every possible way except range and beats the others as a whole package.
Oh yes and it carries as much ords as the P-51 and much much more than the others.
and it takes off of carriers.
and it just barely saw any WWII combat. I think it has the latest enter-service date of all AH set, perhaps except for the Ta-152.
The last line alone justify a perk tag in my book. I know many would not agree, but since MWA is a ghost town, LWA IS aces high and I do not want "late war" to become "last day of WWII" arena. We already have the P47s dominated by the M model which only one FG used, La7 with 3 cannons that represent 2% of the actual serving planes and we do not need an insignificant F4U-4 to turn all other Corsairs into hangar queens. Oh yes, there is the C-hog too, thousands of which were in service...
-
I do not want "late war" to become "last day of WWII" arena.
Nicely stated. Nor do I. :salute
-
The perk tag is more likely a reflection of it being very rare (introduced late) in WW2. One could make the argument to exclude this one from the game in much the same way the Ta152 could be excluded simply because the types did not make a significant impact on the outcome of the war. It's just a (very) late-war ride and the perk reflects that. Perks are not a penalty-of-performance.
-
The perk tag is more likely a reflection of it being very rare (introduced late) in WW2. One could make the argument to exclude this one from the game in much the same way the Ta152 could be excluded simply because the types did not make a significant impact on the outcome of the war. It's just a (very) late-war ride and the perk reflects that. Perks are not a penalty-of-performance.
Perks have never ever been a reflection of 'real world' usage, numbers or date of introduction.
They are only about gameplay impact.
And based on plane performance alone, the F4U-4 is absolutely top notch, carrying a total combination of specs that few, if any, fighters can match. In the MA, the Tempest is the only prop plane with a sustained greater level of success, because of the even higher speed and the 4 Hispanos.
-
The F4U-4 is simply the finest air-to-air combat plane in AH. Isolating its traits and comparing them, inaccurately, against other aircraft one by one ignores the effect of the total package. That it has great air-to-mud capability as well and flies off of boats is just bonus.
-
Keep in mind: The 1-series F4Us are still among the better non-perk fighters due to their blend of characteristics. This is in spite of two major flaws: poor to average rates of climb and acceleration, meaning once the Hog is out of E it's not getting it back quickly, especially in a big fight (regardless of its flaps, being slow in a 1-series Corsair sucks). The F4U-4 eliminates BOTH, so now you've got a Hog that can shed and regain energy AT WILL. And this is a fast, tough plane that is highly maneuverable across a HUGE speed range. Seeing it yet?
Remember, most planes rely on either high or low-speed maneuverability. The Corsair has BOTH, and now you have a machine that can switch back and forth practically on the fly.
-
Ok so then perks becomes a matter of performance and advantage over other players. As you may know I fly LW planes only and consider the -4 to be one of the toughest opponents. It's ultimately about the pilot but in capable hands that aircraft is tougher than a tempest, much more agile than the 262 and a allround better package than any spitfire.
I enjoyed the F4U-4 a lot before joining the 11th, especially from flattops.
-
Not to mention the 4hog is a bomb truck.
And if you get her light, she is a demon. Climbs like a banshee, turns on a time, accelerates like a bat outa hell,
deffinatly worth the perk price
-
What it ultimately comes down to, is the F4U-4 is a "Do Anything" plane. The P-51D, 109K-4 and La-7 all excel at a particular type of fight at a particular altitude range. The 4-Hog can fight any type of fight, whether it's energy, angles, high-altitude, or on the deck, AND it can swing between them practically at will. It's also a solid bomb truck with a large ordinance load and able to take a hell of a beating. Its gun package is arguably second all-around only to the Hispano when you factor in both hitting power AND ballistics properties of the Ma Deuce.
-
Did the some of you writing these responses read the comparisons I made? Sounds like a lot are giving their opinion here of the aircraft void of the data. Yes, I did ask for opinion, but didn't mean opinion to make your argument vs. the perk, I meant your opinion on how you like/prefer to fly it.
The F4U-4 comes in 3rd place in a lot of categories where the majority of fighting is done in AH. Yes flaps out changes things, but as I stated that is the calling card of all Corsairs. Overall below ~10k, the F4U-4 is 3rd place. And it is in 3rd place by a pretty good margin, that is only against the three I put up...
Here's one for you, the La-7 beats the F4U-4 in every single way below 10k. If you're flying it off of a carrier what alt are you going to be at? 20k where it excels or down low because you're assisting in a base grab. Furthermore I also compared the Spit 14, faster than the F4U-4 again where fights take place.
As far as being perked because the ord it can pack, that's a ridiculous reason if so, who wastes time/perks with a perkie to pack ord? Taking ord with a perk plane is a waste of time, when there are so many others better suited to it and no need to risk perks.
-
An F4U1A can already pretty easily handle a La-7 in an equal E fight...I'm pretty sure the -4 will kick the La-7's bellybutton in 3 turns max. The only card the La-7 has is speed and a little extra climbing power, but definitely not enough to survive a TnB fight.
-
Not to mention the 4hog is a bomb truck.
And if you get her light, she is a demon. Climbs like a banshee, turns on a time, accelerates like a bat outa hell,
deffinatly worth the perk price
Hey Zach, did you look the -4's climb, not really that impressive, even worse if someone wants to engage you before you get to a desired E state and on your way to a fight carrying drop tanks. 3,800 ft/m at a clean take. Full fuel below 10k not that impressive, K-4 and La-7 easily crawl up its' backside.
-
Did the some of you writing these responses read the comparisons I made? Sounds like a lot are giving their opinion here of the aircraft void of the data. Yes, I did ask for opinion, but didn't mean opinion to make your argument vs. the perk, I meant your opinion on how you like/prefer to fly it.
The F4U-4 comes in 3rd place in a lot of categories where the majority of fighting is done in AH. Yes flaps out changes things, but as I stated that is the calling card of all Corsairs. Overall below ~10k, the F4U-4 is 3rd place. And that is only against the three I put up...
Here's one for you, the La-7 beats the F4U-4 in every single way below 10k. If you're flying it off of a carrier what alt are you going to be at? 20k where it excels or down low because you're assisting in a base grab. Furthermore I also compared the Spit 14, faster than the F4U-4 again where fights take place.
As far as being perked because the ord it can pack, that's a ridiculous reason if so, who wastes time/perks with a perkie to pack ord? Taking ord with a perk plane is a waste of time, when there are so many others better suited to it and no need to risk perks.
Did you read our responses? It seems not based on this reply. Also, your speed on the deck number was off, you put the F4U-4 in 3rd place when it would be in second, beating both the P-51D and Bf109K-4.
The problem is you are isolating performance characteristics and ranking them without consideration of how important they are, how closely matched they are or how the whole of them meshes together to work in combat.
The F4U-4 is superior, by a significant margin, to every other piston engined fighter in the game. This has been demonstrated repeatedly through the years. All a Tempest can do is run or die when facing an F4U-4.
-
Also, F4U can hang on to its prop a lot longer than other comparable fighters can. K4, La7, Tempest, all start flopping and falling shortly after 100mph. F4U4 will hang on for a while longer thanks to the flaps and rudder. Spit16 and Yak3 might be able to hang on as well but they lose out in the other aspects of a dogfight, namely turn radius.
-
All a Tempest can do is run or die when facing an F4U-4.
Interestingly the Tempest has killed consistently more F4U-4s over the years than the other way around.
Surely the F4U4 is the better dogfighter (in a classic 'honorable' duel my money would be all on the F4U-4), but one in need of a more experienced hand than the Tempest to utilize it's strengths. In the context of MA combat, the Tempest is simply the better killer (feel free to replace that with 'picker' if you like). And that's why the Temp is competing with the 262 for the top of the MA food chain all those years, and never the F4U-4.
-
Did you read our responses? It seems not based on this reply. Also, your speed on the deck number was off, you put the F4U-4 in 3rd place when it would be in second, beating both the P-51D and Bf109K-4.
The problem is you are isolating performance characteristics and ranking them without consideration of how important they are, how closely matched they are or how the whole of them meshes together to work in combat.
The F4U-4 is superior, by a significant margin, to every other piston engined fighter in the game. This has been demonstrated repeatedly through the years. All a Tempest can do is run or die when facing an F4U-4.
Yes, uhhhh how could I be responding to the responses to my post if I didn't read them :headscratch:
Wrong according the charts I used: 1st = La7 359mph, 2nd = P51 355mph, 3rd = F4U-4 351mph, and K-4 339 that is the speed on the deck = 500' according to Gonzoville charts. HT's charts don't give me an exact # but based off of visual perception it looks like Gonzoville is still correct.
Do you fly in the LWMA? If so you'd know that whatever the -4 can do above ~15k is relevant to only a few, as I stated, ~75% of the fight is taking place below that. You take out the ftr vs. bomber above 10k I wonder how much kills above ~12k would amount to % wise.
-
deleted = repost
-
Interestingly the Tempest has killed consistently more F4U-4s over the years than the other way around.
Surely the F4U4 is the better dogfighter (in a classic 'honorable' duel my money would be all on the F4U-4), but one in need of a more experienced hand than the Tempest to utilize it's strengths. In the context of MA combat, the Tempest is simply the better killer (feel free to replace that with 'picker' if you like). And that's why the Temp is competing with the 262 for the top of the MA food chain all those years, and never the F4U-4.
Tempest is a better MA plane, and its numbers and perk price reflect that.
Yes, uhhhh how could I be responding to the responses to my post if I didn't read them :headscratch:
You didn't seem to take anything we said into consideration.
Wrong according the charts I used: 1st = La7 359mph, 2nd = P51 355mph, 3rd = F4U-4 351mph, and K-4 339 that is the speed on the deck = 500' according to Gonzoville charts. HT's charts don't give me an exact # but based off of visual perception it looks like Gonzoville is still correct.
MIL speeds are not really the speeds that matter in combat terms. Look at WEP speeds for AH combat comparisons.
Do you fly in the LWMA? If so you'd know that whatever the -4 can do above ~15k is relevant to only a few, as I stated, ~75% of the fight is taking place below that. You take out the ftr vs. bomber above 10k I wonder how much kills above ~12k would amount to % wise.
Yes. I have not been considering its performance at alt relevant, just as I never considered the Spit XIV's performance at alt relevant.
-
Also, earlier there was some mention of it being late development and few in comparison.
While that is true in comparison with the roughly other 11,000+ Corsairs produced, it actually saw service earlier than the La-7 if what I read was correct. It said Nov '44 on the -4 and Dec/Jan on the La-7 actually being flown in combat. The -4 was built and ready way before it saw combat.
Another interesting note, of all the some odd 12,000 Corsairs flown by the US (100's of variants given/lend to other countries) less than 1/4 of combat sorties ever took off from a carrier. And by far far and away, the Corsair was flown by the Marines and their land based air fields.
Honestly if we're going for the has to be realistic, therefore...well then only a few Corsairs should really be taking off a carrier, somewhere around 15 for every 100.
-
Honestly if we're going for the has to be realistic, therefore..
But we aren't at least, not as the RL service numbers vs AH 'usage' are related. No plane or GV had ever been limited in any way in AH for this reason. Else the Ostwind would have to be perked to the sky ;)
-
Tempest is a better MA plane, and its numbers and perk price reflect that.
You didn't seem to take anything we said into consideration.
MIL speeds are not really the speeds that matter in combat terms. Look at WEP speeds for AH combat comparisons.
Yes. I have not been considering its performance at alt relevant, just as I never considered the Spit XIV's performance at alt relevant.
With WEP 8mph slower than La, and 5 faster than K-4 at 500', K-4 becomes faster at 3k. Overall up to ~10k, it is still 3rd in terms of speed.
As far as taking into consideration...and "we/our." I'm not sure who the "we" is, but I did say "some of you writing these responses," so I'll be more direct too. It seems like there's a crowd here that resists change. In the relatively short stay here, I've noticed it frequently, it's prevalent and outspoken. Karnak you had 10 sorties for 6 kills in a ftr in the last tour, I'm not going to look up every tour, but if you aren't spending a lot of time in here, are you sure have a fresh memory of the makeup?
At this point all I can say is again it seems a lot, certainly not all, jump all over the suggestion of change. I came upon this subject because higher alt fighters than my -4 were making life difficult and I thought why would anyone pay perks for this plane where if a P-51 happens to be above you he has every advantage. If it had cannon then maybe I could see that being inline with the Tempest. Then I thought ok, well surely there must be one place where the -4 dominates and justifies its' perk price vs. non-perks. I can't find it; Pony beats it up high (turn radius is even closer,) La and Spits beat it down low, and the K-4 beats it in the middle range.
Beings that refuse to accept change often are overtaken by change and disappear throughout history. There isn't any area where that doesn't apply, ergo AH.
-
Honestly if we're going for the has to be realistic, therefore...well then only a few Corsairs should really be taking off a carrier, somewhere around 15 for every 100.
AH does a binary, yes/no, consideration for carriers. Just as 25% of Spitfire sorties aren't required to be Spitfire Mk Vs, despite about 25% of Spitfires built being Spitfire Mk Vs. For the most part it is a sandbox game where we do what we want with the tools made available by the developer.
With WEP 8mph slower than La, and 5 faster than K-4 at 500', K-4 becomes faster at 3k. Overall up to ~10k, it is still 3rd in terms of speed.
Now factor in the agility and ballistics that so greatly favor the F4U-4 over the Bf109K-4. The K-4's slight edge in speed at 10k and its better climb/acceleration isn't enough to make it the better fighter.
-
RotBaron:
No, you're NOT listening. No one's arguing that Plane A has an advantage in Stat 3 according to Chart W. What we ARE saying is that the F4U-4 is what it is because of the sum of its parts. Even at the low-altitudes that dominate Main Arena play, the F4U-4 WILL destroy the La-7, P-51D and 109K-4. This has been demonstrated, REPEATEDLY, over the however many years the -4 has existed.
But if you're so interested in charts and stats...
Top speed is, frankly, not really that important. It matters only if you're in an extended tail chase where you have plenty of time to get up to speed, or happen to already be flying at top speed. What REALLY matters is acceleration. In which case:
1) The F4U-4 has a 1.5s advantage over the P-51D from 150-200. At the full range from 150 to 300 that advantage increases to almost FOUR SECONDS. From an equal start, if the P-51D tries to escape, the Corsair is going to run it down LONG before the Pony's advantage in top speed comes into play.
2) The 109K-4 has the biggest acceleration advantage. It's about .9 seconds at the bottom end, and 1.2 over the full range to 300. If he tries to drag to get away, he really better hope that Hog is a lousy shot or has a big lead to begin with, because he's not going to open very fast.
3) The La-7 also has an advantage, of about HALF A SECOND over both the low-end and full range.
And if we're talking about a drag race to top speed, The F4U-4 is superior to all three in top end acceleration (300-350mph). In fact the F4U-4 has a full 2 seconds on the 109K-4, which will essentially NEGATE the 109's acceleration advantage to 300.
(Comparisons can be found here http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php though this site is pretty old and I can't say how any FM changes affect this).
Similarly, sustained rate of climb becomes much less important compared to the Zoom. That I don't have figures on, but the F4U-4 can REALLY hold its E due to its mass, engine power, and those four giant paddles up the front dragging it through the air.
-
RotBaron:
No, you're NOT listening.
(Comparisons can be found here http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php though this site is pretty old and I can't say how any FM changes affect this).
As I've stated, that's the website I've derived the majority of this information from. I've done a visual check with HT's data because it's linear and not a precise point on a chart I've eyedballed to make sure Gonzoville isn't out of line with an update or something.
-
I came upon this subject because higher alt fighters than my -4 were making life difficult and I thought why would anyone pay perks for this plane where if a P-51 happens to be above you he has every advantage.
You can honestly say that even an A6M2 with an alt advantage over your F4U-4 has every advantage in the fight, so what's your point? Learn how to deal with high cons.
As I've stated, that's the website I've cherry-picked the majority of this information from.
Fixed.
-
Did you read our responses? It seems not based on this reply. Also, your speed on the deck number was off, you put the F4U-4 in 3rd place when it would be in second, beating both the P-51D and Bf109K-4.
The problem is you are isolating performance characteristics and ranking them without consideration of how important they are, how closely matched they are or how the whole of them meshes together to work in combat.
The F4U-4 is superior, by a significant margin, to every other piston engined fighter in the game. This has been demonstrated repeatedly through the years. All a Tempest can do is run or die when facing an F4U-4.
.......I disagree..... ;)
I have seen it said....but never proven......I took one of the guys who has been in game a very long time...who is an Avid Hog driver....that is just about all he drives.....who is well versed in ACM and holding E.....
he took every Hog we have in the hanger....
and in about 12 fights not once did he come close to killing me in the Ki84...the U4 just took me a bit longer.
Ki84 is the best fighter in game....all things considered when it comes to being a fighter.
(spits come very close but for their frailty I say Ki is better)
-
The final consideration I have time for today is:
When is the last time you saw a -4 take off from a CV on a base take? I don't ever recall. As a matter of fact, I'm lucky to run across a -4 once a week. There's only a few things I can conclude: the perk price is too high, a lot ppl don't seem to like it/corsairs, or the one's who might are already in the C-hog, or a combination of the above. Lusche: maybe you have the data on the -4 usage? I'd bet it is a hangar queen and therefore have to ask why is that? ~24perks is why??? hmmm not so sure there.
Honestly, when base taking from a CV, Corsairs are like a dump truck to get to an E state that will allow you to make a few passes on town and survive the uppers. If there were another CV plane that carried rockets then I wouldn't be flying Corsairs from the CV to deack town.
I've had my eye out for them for the past tour+ because I've wanted to watch and learn. It's rare I see one...
:salute be back tonight
-
That reminds me of the guys predicting havoc in the MA if the Spit 14 ever was to be unperked "It's a monster and will totally dominate!" . Selectively chosing the (impressive) paper performance of top speed, climb rate and turning radius while refusing to look at the whole package and ignoring things like the huge handling issues.
Rot, you are doing the same thing here, just in the other direction.
-
You can honestly say that even an A6M2 with an alt advantage over your F4U-4 has every advantage in the fight, so what's your point? Learn how to deal with high cons.
Fixed.
Uhhh, I used every category Gonzo offered, I explained it in detail in my OP. I didn't try to doctor anything. How is that cherry-picking???
-
Lusche: maybe you have the data on the -4 usage? I'd bet it is a hangar queen and therefore have to ask why is that? ~24perks is why??? hmmm not so sure there.
To answer that, I would have to know what would you consider to be a hangar queen?
Yes, Usage is relatively low because it's perked. But same goes for the Tempest and the 262 as well. The Tempest has about the same number of kills as the -4 has so you could argue it's a hangar queen too.
And as the Tempest isn't that good as a turner and 'only' fast... maybe it's time to unperk it as well? I mean, at MA alts the LA-7 is so much better... ;)
-
Ki84 is the best fighter in game....all things considered when it comes to being a fighter.
I agree with this.
- oldman
-
Uhhh, I used every category Gonzo offered, I explained it in detail in my OP. I didn't try to doctor anything. How is that cherry-picking???
Because you're focusing on precisely TWO PERFORMANCE CATEGORIES and saying "This plane is clearly inferior" while ignoring that there's other factors involved just as, if not MORE, important.
-
One must also consider low speed handling :old:
-
In no particular order, ALL of these factor into the capabilities of a fighter:
Low speed handling
High speed handling
Low-altitude Performance
High-altitude Performance
Durability
Firepower
Ballistics
Gun Platform
Acceleration
Top Speed
Rate of Climb
Zoom Capability/E Retention
Visibility
Range
Ordinance Load
That's at LEAST fifteen points, allowing for anything I've forgotten. Sustained climb and max speed are TWO of them.
-
In no particular order, ALL of these factor into the capabilities of a fighter:
Low speed handling
High speed handling
Low-altitude Performance
High-altitude Performance
Durability
Firepower
Ballistics
Gun Platform
Acceleration
Top Speed
Rate of Climb
Zoom Capability/E Retention
Visibility
Range
Ordinance Load
That's at LEAST fifteen points, allowing for anything I've forgotten. Sustained climb and max speed are TWO of them.
True, but some can be compensated with experience, see the 109's tater cannon's ballistics.
The 4-hog is the jack of all trades fighter. It might not be the best in everything, but speaking about the overall performance, its the best WW2 fighter, by far. Really has no weak points and can play every other plane's own game. The only thing that comes close is tha La7, but only in fighter mode and only under 9K.
-
In no particular order, ALL of these factor into the capabilities of a fighter:
Low speed handling
High speed handling
Low-altitude Performance
High-altitude Performance
Durability
Firepower
Ballistics
Gun Platform
Acceleration
Top Speed
Rate of Climb
Zoom Capability/E Retention
Visibility
Range
Ordinance Load
That's at LEAST fifteen points, allowing for anything I've forgotten. Sustained climb and max speed are TWO of them.
You've told me I'm not listening...but:
I've included many, actually almost all except for zoom in my OP and my basis for saying what I have. If you could point me toward something that could quantify zoom in some objective way, I'd be happy to consider it.
Also, visibility is somewhat subjective. It depends on the players monitor's resolution. I get drastically different views from cockpit using different resolutions, so much so that when I flew the Ki-84 all the time I wouldn't run my lcd in native.
I get it, I get that it's a great all around and overall fighter. I just disagree that it should be perked, at least at ~22-24 when something like the La-7 isn't at all. I'm not sure what situation anyone could argue it beats the La-7, at what game, a full flaps out low speed fight? Why would an La fight that fight? One objective is to force the guy to fight your fight, what can the -4 force the La7 to do co-alt co-E?
-
To answer that, I would have to know what would you consider to be a hangar queen?
Yes, Usage is relatively low because it's perked. But same goes for the Tempest and the 262 as well. The Tempest has about the same number of kills as the -4 has so you could argue it's a hangar queen too.
And as the Tempest isn't that good as a turner and 'only' fast... maybe it's time to unperk it as well? I mean, at MA alts the LA-7 is so much better... ;)
I would say a hangar queen would be one that sits in the hangar as a choice ~9/10. Of course it's a LW ftr so the data has to accord, but if it's getting used off of CVs at less than ~10% I'd say it fits the description. For me it doesn't have to have dust on it. I see more 410's than I do -4's, and I hear the 410 called hangar queen regularly.
I don't know much about the Tempest, flew for about 2nd or 3rd time ever just yesterday, can't speak about that. Whjat I can comment on is, I see the 1C used much more frequently.
-
I agree with this.
- oldman
The quote was from Ink that Ki-84 is best fighter in the game.
While I really can't comment about that, what I will say is this is what I'm referring to; being a fighter plane. Although this is the about the third time I've said it, ppl keep using ord as a basis. I can't think of any reason I'd jabo from a perk plane.
-
Because you're focusing on precisely TWO PERFORMANCE CATEGORIES and saying "This plane is clearly inferior" while ignoring that there's other factors involved just as, if not MORE, important.
I looked at all four aircraft through their envelope provided by HT and Gonzoville's charts.
Actually I looked at more than four, but felt keeping it simpler made better sense.
-
I'm going to go fly it for awhile, a lot this tour. I'll revisit with my results after a couple of weeks.
But my suspicion is, I'm going to find it's a great mid to high alt fighter and that is where it dictates the fight, conversely down low I imagine I'm going to be egressing for alt a fair amount after a few slashes or turns. We shall see.
However, it occurred to me that maybe the perk cost is a good thing, I find Knights rarely have the greater #'s when I'm on for whatever reason, and that I can often get in the -4 for 14-18 perks, so IDK, maybe I'm defeating a situational benefit to myself.
What truly has me baffled is if it is as awesome as most have purported and contended here, why do I rarely see one?
I'll follow the thread, but I'm done arguing about it one way or the other until I can say with confidence is it as awesome as many of you say or otherwise.
:salute
-
Included:
Climb Rate (military)
Climb Rate (WEP)
Speed (military)
Speed (WEP)
Did not include:
Acceleration
Control Surface Effectivness
Engine HP
Engine Torque
Guns Ballistics
Guns Hitting Power
Guns ROF
Drag Coefficient
Roll Rate
Turn Rate (no flaps)
Turn Rate (flaps)
Turn Radius (no flaps)
Turn Radius (flaps)
And you can make a clear analysis? You sir are an aeronotic genius!
-
I get it, I get that it's a great all around and overall fighter. I just disagree that it should be perked, at least at ~22-24 when something like the La-7 isn't at all. I'm not sure what situation anyone could argue it beats the La-7, at what game, a full flaps out low speed fight? Why would an La fight that fight? One objective is to force the guy to fight your fight, what can the -4 force the La7 to do co-alt co-E?
If you remove the perk cost from the F4U-4, that is all you'll see in the MA, except for the occasional F4U-1C. Why fly a -1D? The -4 offers the same ordnance load-out with best in game balanced performance.
I'll tell you from 12 years of Aces High, as a player and Trainer, with many, many duels in the F4U-4 against everything.... Equal pilots:The F4U-4 beats the La-7. Down low and especially above 10k. Below 8k, the La-7 can run. But, Co-E, Co-Alt, the F4U-4 has more advantages than disadvantages.
-
What truly has me baffled is if it is as awesome as most have purported and contended here, why do I rarely see one?
BECAUSE it is perked!
meaning - objective achieved, perks population control work.
People hoard thousands of perks and are afraid to use them for some reason. It is not about the perk cost at all - if it was perked 20 or 40 points makes little difference, people just have a mental block about spending their perks. At the same time people really like to kill perked planes to rob their owner from a few measly perks...
Ki84 is the best fighter in game....all things considered when it comes to being a fighter.
In a duel maybe. In the MA a high F4U (especially a -4) worries me a lot more than a high Ki84, and I am in a friggin' mosquito. I will never get to engage a -4 on my terms or even terms, unless it is already locked in engagement with someone else. The KI84 will have to dump most of its E advantage to engage me and I do not find them any more difficult in a fight than a Spit16. I will be a lot more aggressive against a plane I can disengage from, and there is absolutely no way I will get any breathing space against the -4.
Duels have a very different flow and usually favor the better turning plane and the better floating plane that pushes the AH FM to "uncomfortable" zones.
-
Included:
Climb Rate (military)
Climb Rate (WEP)
Speed (military)
Speed (WEP)
Did not include:
Acceleration
Control Surface Effectivness
Engine HP
Engine Torque
Guns Ballistics
Guns Hitting Power
Guns ROF
Drag Coefficient
Roll Rate
Turn Rate (no flaps)
Turn Rate (flaps)
Turn Radius (no flaps)
Turn Radius (flaps)
And you can make a clear analysis? You sir are an aeronotic genius!
The aspects I stated objectively at the beginning of the post used the ones you mentioned, yes, correct. ALSO, I included in a subjective comparative analysis in a few statements pertaining to all of those you list that you say I did not include. However, I did include statements about flaps, which you say I did not (but here's some you must of missed.) I did include statement about lethality, but you say I did not. And, I did include acceleration, which you say I did not. Maybe you should read all of my OP before hurling insults.
Did I ever claim to be a genius, or even claim that I have extensive knowledge about aeronautics? Reading comprehension is a skill.
-
If you remove the perk cost from the F4U-4, that is all you'll see in the MA, except for the occasional F4U-1C. Why fly a -1D? The -4 offers the same ordnance load-out with best in game balanced performance.
I'll tell you from 12 years of Aces High, as a player and Trainer, with many, many duels in the F4U-4 against everything.... Equal pilots:The F4U-4 beats the La-7. Down low and especially above 10k. Below 8k, the La-7 can run. But, Co-E, Co-Alt, the F4U-4 has more advantages than disadvantages.
Thank you for an even keeled answer void of mockery. As someone I know who is respected by many I appreciate the analysis of the -4 vs. the La-7. I'll keep that in mind when I encounter one next. :salute
-
Thank you for an even keeled answer void of mockery.
Mockery is there so that we can know who the idiots are in the crowd. Often times they are a majority, in AH too.
-
The aspects I stated objectively at the beginning of the post used the ones you mentioned, yes, correct. ALSO, I included in a subjective comparative analysis in a few statements pertaining to all of those you list that you say I did not include. However, I did include statements about flaps, which you say I did not (but here's some you must of missed.) I did include statement about lethality, but you say I did not. And, I did include acceleration, which you say I did not. Maybe you should read all of my OP before hurling insults.
Did I ever claim to be a genius, or even claim that I have extensive knowledge about aeronautics? Reading comprehension is a skill.
Look, I don't mean to be an bellybutton but you've heard from some of the best pilots and some of the best historians in the game why you're wrong (you are wrong) and yet you try to keep arguing you're right.
You're like the ostrich with his head in the sand... no one knows I'm here because I can't see them. :rolleyes:
Whatever... unperk the F4U-4 and see what happens. It will be my new permanent ride and I HATE most American planes (except Grumman)
-
Mockery is there so that we can know who the idiots are in the crowd. Often times they are a majority, in AH too.
Now that's constructive. :rolleyes:
-
Look, I don't mean to be an bellybutton but you've heard from some of the best pilots and some of the best historians in the game why you're wrong (you are wrong) and yet you try to keep arguing you're right.
You're like the ostrich with his head in the sand... no one knows I'm here because I can't see them. :rolleyes:
Whatever... unperk the F4U-4 and see what happens. It will be my new permanent ride and I HATE most American planes (except Grumman)
The heart of my analysis, however as unqualified as I may be, was if these other 5 ENY planes aren't perked then why is it? The point has already been made by Lusche that the Spit 14 would supposedly take over after it were unperked and it did not. I have not found it to be even the most common Spit since then, from what I see that still sits with the 16. Like Widewing said, the La-7 is inferior, and I thanked him for the analysis.
Since that is the case, leave it perked, lower its perks. Hell even raise its perks, worse could happen. That wasn't my most pertinent point, what was, is the comparison between similar ENY aircraft and their non-perked status. Additionally, that wasn't my only point, but mentioning the perk sure did raise a lot of britches up ppls cracks, some of you could use to pull them back out. Kinda as if this post threatened some existence of what I don't know. But, I looked a lot of you up, and it begs the question for some of you who don't play anymore, why do you care? Would seem to me if you don't play anymore, but you're telling people how a game they play should be conducted you should seek employment in the gaming industry.
I get it, it sits in the hangar where you think it belongs. :aok
Continue to flame on, doesn't bother me.
Ostrich out.
-
Now that's constructive. :rolleyes:
Just pointing out that those who resort to mockery lack arguments and aren't really the smartest people either. That is not constructive, besides it is that kind of behavior that keep dragging humanity into the gutter.
-
Can I side track from the "perk point" thingy and ask everyone about the F4U-4 acceleration compared to other allied planes in here. It always seems to me that it is slower in acceleration then it should be:
"In level flight acceleration the F4U-4 gained speed at about 2.4 mph/sec, the P-51D accelerated at about 2.2 mph/sec. The F4U-1 could not keep up with either, accelerating at only 1.5 mph/sec. The real drag racer of American WWII fighters was the P-38L. It gained speed at 2.8 mph/sec. All acceleration data was compiled at 10-15,000 ft at Mil. power settings."
-
RotBaron,
Look at how the Spit XIV did in the past as a perk plane. It was hardly used, a fraction of the use of the F4U-4, despite a much lower perk price and its K/D ratio was always exceeded by a number of free planes and utterly obliterated by every other perk plane, including the F4U-1C. The F4U-4 is in no way in the same boat as the Spitfire Mk XIV was.
On paper the Spit XIV is a dominate fighter, in game you are fighting it almost as much as the enemy whereas on paper the F4U-4 is merely very good but in game it dominates any other piston fighter in a one on one and is an excellent fighter in many on many.
-
Free -4's, I will never fly anything else again in the MA.
-
Both the Spit14 and the Yak3 pushed the MA into an faster plane arena , releasing F4u4 and / or Tempest perk free makes the arena a faster one.
Ive changed my flying style to stand a chance, sometimes flying other plane than my old favourite without a wingman around, when outnumbered.
So flying a much better plane with small eny difference that where produced in far less numbers
is apparently better :headscratch:
Maybe ENY system should be affected by # of squadmembers online, since this affects the survival chance more than what the plane does.
Example: me and 2 others took off in 262s to hunt down a particular 262, what chance did that guy have ?
-
Both the Spit14 and the Yak3 pushed the MA into an faster plane arena
That doesn't make any sense. Neither are particularly fast compared to the speed leaders. What does a Spitfire Mk XIV do to you than a Bf109K-4 didn't already do to you? Yak-3 is slower than a Yak-9U.
I get the sense that the Spitfire Mk XIV's biggest crime is to be a Spitfire.
-
That doesn't make any sense. Neither are particularly fast compared to the speed leaders. What does a Spitfire Mk XIV do to you than a Bf109K-4 didn't already do to you? Yak-3 is slower than a Yak-9U.
I may add that the use of both planes has already dropped by a considerable amount.
-
The -4 would dominate the arena if not perked, IMHO.
Let me butcher a statement from the best -4 driver I've seen several years back.
"The -4 is the BEST prop driven plane in the game"
BluKitty
That's good enough for me!
JUGgler
-
You dont follow, it just adds up - faster machines catches all slower marks of same brand,
109k, spit14 190dora yak3, to be chewed up by others when forced to turn back into the furball.
Karnak:
You have no idea what planes i like and not.
I flew Spits alnost exclusive until I became a trainer and later euro-headtrainer in a game
created by hitech and pyro, long time ago.
I have flown spits in here,
but only one Spit16 mission, landing 4 kills with half ammo.
I seek challenge in flying some machines, but
lately , flying birds in a furball that previous you had small chance in, is now close to suicide.
the G6 is a good example, because the new good planes adds up.
That doesn't make any sense. Neither are particularly fast compared to the speed leaders. What does a Spitfire Mk XIV do to you than a Bf109K-4 didn't already do to you? Yak-3 is slower than a Yak-9U.
I get the sense that the Spitfire Mk XIV's biggest crime is to be a Spitfire.
-
The -4 would dominate the are if not perked, IMHO.
Let me butcher a statement from the best -4 driver I've seen several years back.
"The -4 is the BEST prop driven plane in the game"
BluKitty
That's good enough for me!
JUGgler
TBH, I'd still even rate it above the 262. The 262 only really has speed and climb going for it. Poor acceleration, doesn't turn well at ANY speed, and the 30mm have too poor of a rate of fire, muzzle velocity, and ballistics properties to be particularly useful against fighters unless you REALLY know how to aim them. I rarely ever found them to be more than a nuisance since so long as you're aware of them, as it takes very little effort to evade an attack.
-
I've lost a few dogfights to a few 262 jocks.
262's are actually quite manueverable at 400mph
-
Can I side track from the "perk point" thingy and ask everyone about the F4U-4 acceleration compared to other allied planes in here. It always seems to me that it is slower in acceleration then it should be:
"In level flight acceleration the F4U-4 gained speed at about 2.4 mph/sec, the P-51D accelerated at about 2.2 mph/sec. The F4U-1 could not keep up with either, accelerating at only 1.5 mph/sec. The real drag racer of American WWII fighters was the P-38L. It gained speed at 2.8 mph/sec. All acceleration data was compiled at 10-15,000 ft at Mil. power settings."
See the chart:
http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php
It appears in the 150-200mph range the 38-L is a close second in acceleration. Through the rest of the envelope it distances itself from the other US iron you mentioned. I'm sure there are other factors, but one aspect of drag is weight, thus while its better than the other corsairs, it's still a 12klb aircraft. However, part of the problem with this chart is the 500' baseline for comparison.
One of things that got my attention once was being hunted in the -4 down by a F4U-1 (I knew who was after me and knew the result if I tried to fight.) The overall topspeed was not enough to distance myself from him to get to land; he vulched me. I tried my best to get away but I was out of fuel. The increased horsepower drains the fuel tanks quicker. Also, I think I read somewhere that the main tank is smaller to begin with, but can't say that for sure.
-
In my opinion, - 4 Hogs are the most dangerous opponents in the game. I get fairly into the game, and it's the only icon that elicits a fight or flight response from me.
There is nothing it doesn't do well, which means if it has the initiative, you have to beat the pilot, instead of beating the plane.
-
It's always the pilot you to defeat.
I once killed a 4hog wih a dash 1a with little E. I used overshoots and baited him to loose his alt and e advantage. Eventually turned into a turn fight and my flaps popped out first :banana:
Very rarely does one run into such pilots in this plane tho.
-
You dont follow, it just adds up - faster machines catches all slower marks of same brand,
109k, spit14 190dora yak3, to be chewed up by others when forced to turn back into the furball.
Karnak:
You have no idea what planes i like and not.
I flew Spits alnost exclusive until I became a trainer and later euro-headtrainer in a game
created by hitech and pyro, long time ago.
I have flown spits in here,
but only one Spit16 mission, landing 4 kills with half ammo.
I seek challenge in flying some machines, but
lately , flying birds in a furball that previous you had small chance in, is now close to suicide.
the G6 is a good example, because the new good planes adds up.
I've yet to have a Spit XIV or Yak3 change what i do in the MA. In fact I love the sight of a Spit XIV over any other spit, and pretty much the same for the Yak3
-
It's always the pilot you to defeat.
I once killed a 4hog wih a dash 1a with little E. I used overshoots and baited him to loose his alt and e advantage. Eventually turned into a turn fight and my flaps popped out first :banana:
Very rarely does one run into such
Drop the best pilot in a -4, and the situation is entirely different. While the K4 can out-climb the -4, it needs a fair bit of a head start. Unl pilots in this plane tho.
Don't be obtuse; you're confusing the point.
-
Point is dash 4 is a dominating aircraft, with that I totally agree.
-
Point is the plane that can force you to stay and fight is not the plane that normally kills you, its the ki84 and spit16 that just wait for you in the tonga-line behind, will.
The only thing that can bail you out, is your wingman diving in to clear you.
To be called a #%&€% picker helping your wingman, i can live with.
Without wingman in slower bird, you are a just another kill.
I've yet to have a Spit XIV or Yak3 change what i do in the MA. In fact I love the sight of a Spit XIV over any other spit, and pretty much the same for the Yak3
-
Really meant drag + weight, I'm sure someone here could put the equation with the Corsair's variables.
How do you guys manage the throttle with the balance of kinetic retention, but slower (than some) acceleration?
When ENY is high I've been trying to fly the other Corsairs while paying attention to the aforementioned (so as to help improve my -4 flying,) but I find myself looking at a higher con thinking oh crap. Whether I won or had to disengage I'm watching them descend on me with little understanding how to combat. I know I need more time in the TA, but how do you handle this? The barrel roll defense is something I've tried with limited success (I'm sure it's my execution.)
-
save,
Were you not the guy objecting to how the Spit XIV made life hard for your Fw190A-8? If not, my apologies.
To me, being a Mossie VI fan, I just don't see the Spit XIV any different than the Bf109K-4, both of which require me to outfly the enemy because his fighter is simply superior to mine. Bf109K-4s are actually worse because you rarely encounter only one as Luft fans seem to be a lot more into the themed squadron thing.
-
Whether I won or had to disengage I'm watching them descend on me with little understanding how to combat. I know I need more time in the TA, but how do you handle this? The barrel roll defense is something I've tried with limited success (I'm sure it's my execution.)
Ultimately you want to neutralize his altitude advantage, and even with aircraft that can outclimb you that's not impossible. If I'm alone and dealing with a high con I want to maintain a bit of horizontal separation. It's a LOT easier to neutralize his advantage if he's not able to stay right on top of you, so what I'll do is:
1) Once I ID him, I'll turn away and show him my tail and start a shallow climb, maintaining as much E as I can. This buys me a little time to neutralize some of his alt advantage since he has to close the gap horizontally. I keep an eye on him and watch. If he continues on his way I may go into Auto Climb (Alt-X) to grab as much altitude as I can before resuming course. If he turns in and starts to follow I watch his range...
2) ...and once I see him close to within about 2000 yards I'll go shallow nose down to pick up a bit of maneuvering speed. My eyes are still on the bandit.
3) At around 1500 yards I'll enter a slight nose-low turn into him. This will start to eat up the distance between us as he goes to cut the corner, but he'll also have to commit more to keep guns on me. This sets up...
4) ...my move at about 600-800 yards, extreme gun range. I break hard into and back underneath him in a Low Yo-Yo. If my positioning and timing at the break are right he won't be able to follow.
5) I pull through the bottom and go into a zoom to grab back as much altitude as I can while I IMMEDIATELY pick up where the bandit went. If I see he recovered and is grabbing altitude again I'll keep repeating this until either we've neutralized E states, he loses interest, help comes, I can get away, etc.
What happens a LOT however, (especially against P-51s) is that the bandit over-committed and is now well below me, blowing a ton of E trying to pull out. In which case I cackle gleefully, kick the rudder over and drop on him. :devil
The real key to this is horizontal separation, since that gives you the room you need to recover your own E between each pass and sucker him into over-committing on his attacks.
-
I do not like spit14s less than yak3 la7 109k, they all adds up to the speedrace. Very good firepower does not make it any worse.
would it be better If all veterans started to use their perkpoints ?
My squad flew a full squad online about 10 guys in 262s once, the country we flew against did not up again on our side of the front,because if you cant beat them, join them, or log.
Im worried a G2-G6 190a yak7, earlier spits, mossie do not have a place in MA in the future.
I admit i started to fly Doras instead of 190a även odds are against us, next i probably switch the G6 for a G14.
save,
Were you not the guy objecting to how the Spit XIV made life hard for your Fw190A-8? If not, my apologies.
To me, being a Mossie VI fan, I just don't see the Spit XIV any different than the Bf109K-4, both of which require me to outfly the enemy because his fighter is simply superior to mine. Bf109K-4s are actually worse because you rarely encounter only one as Luft fans seem to be a lot more into the themed squadron thing.
-
Really wish our g6 had the mk-108 :(
-
I do not like spit14s less than yak3 la7 109k, they all adds up to the speedrace. Very good firepower does not make it any worse.
would it be better If all veterans started to use their perkpoints ?
My squad flew a full squad online about 10 guys in 262s once, the country we flew against did not up again on our side of the front,because if you cant beat them, join them, or log.
Im worried a G2-G6 190a yak7, earlier spits, mossie do not have a place in MA in the future.
I admit i started to fly Doras instead of 190a även odds are against us, next i probably switch the G6 for a G14.
Nonsense. The Spit XIV is only comparatively fast above 23K. At typical MA alts it's no faster than the VIII or XVI and handles worse. The K-4 is superior in almost every way and it's been in the MA for years, as has the La-7.
My primary rides are the Spit IX, 190A-8, F6F-5 and 109K-4 none of which are particularily fast outside of the K-4.
If you haven't been forced to change planes yet based on a single performance charachteristic it's not likely you'll have to worry about it in the future. On the other hand if you're one dimensional (i.e. fly fast, pick and run) then maybe it's time to learn to fly. Not saying that's how you fly but your post suggests it is.
-
A spit14 diving from typical ma altitude with a A8 is all the difference from the Spit16. They catch you .period.
Do not try to tell me you successfully dogifight a comparable Spit14/16 pilot in an A8 without lots of speed.
IF you do that without wingman Im all ear listening how you do that.
:cheers:
With a wingman, like we do in my squad, (and get frowned upon doing that) you can stretch it quite far though.
-
Nonsense. The Spit XIV is only comparatively fast above 23K. At typical MA alts it's no faster than the VIII or XVI and handles worse.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=64&p2=86&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
-
save,
Were you not the guy objecting to how the Spit XIV made life hard for your Fw190A-8? If not, my apologies.
To me, being a Mossie VI fan, I just don't see the Spit XIV any different than the Bf109K-4, both of which require me to outfly the enemy because his fighter is simply superior to mine. Bf109K-4s are actually worse because you rarely encounter only one as Luft fans seem to be a lot more into the themed squadron thing.
I was one of those worried about the Spit 14 being made free. First, I am happy to see that its population has dwindled down, as well as that of the Yak3s. Those two planes are a menace in the hands of a pilot who knows more than roll his lift vector and pull the stick. I overestimated the typical skill level of the AH player and it appears that the vast majority simply have no idea what these planes can do, or how to do it. So in terms of MA population they are tolerable - by themselves.
The real worry is the creeping increase of the typical plane performance level in the MA. Since Yak3 and Spit14 are not massively used, this has increased incrementally instead of spiking. It is the direction that worries me. Unperking the F4U-4 or the tempest will keep this trend up and in their case may even create a big spike.
I find the Spit14 more dangerous to my Mossie or P47Ds than 109K4s. The latter have to get real close in order to hit and it is easier to force a high deflection shot that they are likely to miss, or not take at all. The spits just nail me from 600-700 yards. Again, by themselves they are not a problem, but it is one more plane that can completely lock me into combat with no option to run away, dive away, or climb away. Then some slow turny-burny bird can show up and finish me off. I target Spit14s as top priority together with the LA7s.
It is fortunate that LA7s and Yak3s are Russian planes. Had they been American the arena would have been overrun by them.
F4U-4 is American.
-
. It is the direction that worries me. Unperking the F4U-4 or the tempest will keep this trend up and in their case may even create a big spike.
But they will not get unperked, so no reason to get worried about that ;)
-
I would not have objected at all if HTC had gone the other direction. If instead of unperking the Spitfire Mk XIV they had lightly perked the Bf109K-4, Fw190D-9, La-7, N1K2-J, P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI, Typhoon Mk Ib, Ta152H-1 and Yak-3. However, the P-51D has to be on that list or it can't be done and the P-51D can't be perked for other reasons, thus the only solution for the Mk XIV was to unperk it.
-
D. Acceleration at military: it's 3rd throughout the envelope to 300mph.
Forget acceleration at mil power - kick the WEP on and you feel every cubic inch of that 2,450 HP engine. The -4 is a BEAST.
-
Forget acceleration at mil power - kick the WEP on and you feel every cubic inch of that 2,450 HP engine. The -4 is a BEAST.
Actually according to the charts from HTC, the -4 is LAST among the 4 I mentioned using WEP between ~2k and ~10k, of course everyone should know (now) the La-7 performance drops off at 10k. So, at 10k, the F4U-4 takes its 3rd place position back (like military power) until 14k where it becomes parallel with the P-51D. When I say parallel, I mean fairly parallel, the biggest margin in mph between the P-51D and the F4U-4 once the -4 catches the -D is 20mph at the alt of 20k. I'm repeating myself now, but, the -4 does not take over in acceleration or almost any category between these four planes until 25k. At 25K the K-4 is now tied with it for acceleration with WEP. The odd thing here, and one of my reasons for this thread to begin, was the P-51D being faster than the -4 for the majority of the envelope. I originally thought that the P-51D was a heavier bird than it is, it's ~2-3klb's lighter and even with the -4's engine I guess it can't make up for it until the air gets thin.
Summary: At first, for up to ~2k the -4 is the quickest in acceleration of the four mentioned (by a very small margin, all 4 are close together.) After 2k the La-7 and K-4 rapidly seperate themselves from the -4 and the P-51D. At 10k alt the La-7's acceleration falls off and it's now between the the remaining two, by ever decreasing margins up to 25k alt, where the -4 takes over through the rest of the ceiling.
The above is not to be construed as an argument for anything anymore, just the facts.
:salute
-
Erm, the P-51D doesn't out accelerate the F4U-4 at any altitude. I think you're looking at speed and calling it acceleration.
-
See the chart:
http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php
It appears in the 150-200mph range the 38-L is a close second in acceleration. Through the rest of the envelope it distances itself from the other US iron you mentioned. I'm sure there are other factors, but one aspect of drag is weight, thus while its better than the other corsairs, it's still a 12klb aircraft. However, part of the problem with this chart is the 500' baseline for comparison.
One of things that got my attention once was being hunted in the -4 down by a F4U-1 (I knew who was after me and knew the result if I tried to fight.) The overall topspeed was not enough to distance myself from him to get to land; he vulched me. I tried my best to get away but I was out of fuel. The increased horsepower drains the fuel tanks quicker. Also, I think I read somewhere that the main tank is smaller to begin with, but can't say that for sure.
If you're in a -4 being hunted by a birdcage the main thing is to first equalize E states. Once equal the -4 will out climb and out accelerate the -1 handily. Once the -4 gets the advantage there isn't a whole lot the birdcage can do against the -4. If you find yourself dying to birdcage corsairs in -4's I would recommend that you stay out of -4's and fly -1A's, birdcages, or even -1D's until you really understand how to fight in a corsair. Trying to learn in a -4 will only teach you bad habits that will get you killed when you come up against someone that knows what they are doing.
-
Erm, the P-51D doesn't out accelerate the F4U-4 at any altitude. I think you're looking at speed and calling it acceleration.
Uhh, sorry, yes you are correct. I had acceleration in mind and was looking at the gonzoville charts, but then looked at speed from HTC, and confused the two.
My apologies, I just looked, yes at 1.5sec 150-200mph, 2.3secs 200-250mph, and 3.7secs longer respectively for the P-51D to accelerate to these speeds as a -4. "Top end," it gets even worse for the P-51.
Thank you for the correction.
-
If you're in a -4 being hunted by a birdcage the main thing is to first equalize E states. Once equal the -4 will out climb and out accelerate the -1 handily. Once the -4 gets the advantage there isn't a whole lot the birdcage can do against the -4. If you find yourself dying to birdcage corsairs in -4's I would recommend that you stay out of -4's and fly -1A's, birdcages, or even -1D's until you really understand how to fight in a corsair. Trying to learn in a -4 will only teach you bad habits that will get you killed when you come up against someone that knows what they are doing.
I was on my last minute of fuel. It was Joker chasing me, end result would be the same as he is leagues above me.
-
I was on my last minute of fuel. It was Joker chasing me, end result would be the same as he is leagues above me.
When I'm flying a -4 I'll usually take a single DT with me as well as the 100% internal. The beauty of the -4 is that due to its improved engine power over the early marks you don't always need to cut the tank loose until you're going to be REALLY heavily engaged. If you're in a position where you can use BnZ/E-fighting tactics (which in the -4 is not hard to set up) you can hold the tank as long as possible.
I just wish we could get the centerline hardpoint for the 1D/C and 4 so it's not flying unbalanced....
-
Curiosity question...with the P51D is WEP simulation of high blower or low blower? I'm looking at some numbers and was wondering AH numbers to RL numbers.
-
I would not have objected at all if HTC had gone the other direction. If instead of unperking the Spitfire Mk XIV they had lightly perked the Bf109K-4, Fw190D-9, La-7, N1K2-J, P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI, Typhoon Mk Ib, Ta152H-1 and Yak-3. However, the P-51D has to be on that list or it can't be done and the P-51D can't be perked for other reasons, thus the only solution for the Mk XIV was to unperk it.
I personally have long thought that the arena would overall be more interesting if this was done. Not for a while though. It would most likely be very very bad for the game, especially as the arena numbers are going down as they are. It is the new players that usually have hard time earning perks. It would just increase the gap between experienced and new players.
-
Instead of perking P51D/TA152 maybe force them fly with 100% fuel, and perk the rest of them :aok
P51D with 100 fuel is still fast but handles like a fat pig compared.
I know few Pony/152 pilots in MA that use 100% fuel.
I would not have objected at all if HTC had gone the other direction. If instead of unperking the Spitfire Mk XIV they had lightly perked the Bf109K-4, Fw190D-9, La-7, N1K2-J, P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI, Typhoon Mk Ib, Ta152H-1 and Yak-3. However, the P-51D has to be on that list or it can't be done and the P-51D can't be perked for other reasons, thus the only solution for the Mk XIV was to unperk it.
-
I know few Pony/152 pilots in MA that use 100% fuel.
I do quite often, particularly with the Ta 152. But then I'm actually using it at the altitude it was made for... ;)
-
Du you find any prey up there?
-
Du you find any prey up there?
Yes, that's the reason I do fly it there. The majority of my kills in the Ta 152 are at 25K+
-
Awesome!
-
Yes, that's the reason I do fly it there. The majority of my kills in the Ta 152 are at 25K+
know how to get out of it's nasty stall?
-
I run 75% with the Ta 152 a fair bit. Although the only time I take full is on escort runs, and the DT is reserved exclusively for round trip strat escorting.
And Lusche, if you've figured out how to reliably escape that damnable flat spin, would you mind spending an a bit teaching me, next time I see you on?
-
if you've figured out how to reliably escape that damnable flat spin
I haven't. :)
But as I generally don't dogfight in it anmyore, it's not much of an issue to me.
-
Engine off (not idle... Off!), gear down, opposite rudder and push nose down.
-
Engine off (not idle... Off!), gear down, opposite rudder and push nose down.
That's it right there. You do need a bit of alt to have enough time to recover. Again, engine must be off. I am also engine off for all landings in the TA152 as the tail has a strong tendency to slide left and snap the gear and then the wing(s).
-
I haven't. :)
But as I generally don't dogfight in it anmyore, it's not much of an issue to me.
Hehehehe.... So that's why you're always flying so high :neener:.
And thank you, Scholz.
-
That's it right there. You do need a bit of alt to have enough time to recover. Again, engine must be off. I am also engine off for all landings in the TA152 as the tail has a strong tendency to slide left and snap the gear and then the wing(s).
I have literally never had that happen to me :confused:. Are you doing quick landings, where you're coming in at an off angle from a spiral dive?
-
I have literally never had that happen to me :confused:. Are you doing quick landings, where you're coming in at an off angle from a spiral dive?
No Jager. I'm taking my time, lined up early, flaps out, gear down. A careful approach to say the least. Once that tail starts to slide left no amount of rudder makes it stop. I am on the brakes which are either full on or full off, maybe that's part of the problem. Even taxi'ing the dang thing is a handful for me.
-
If done right away, you can recover but ............if it happens at super high altitude the conditions don't exist for a swift recovery and it progresses into a tail first drop that is not recoverable.
Believe me, when you fall from 41,000 feet tail first, you have plenty of time to try every single permutation of controls and power settings.
-
Use individual wheel brakes to help steer, Zoney.
-
I never use the brakes until I'm just rolling at walking speed. Three-point it and roll it out. Never had an issue landing the Tank or the 109.
-
If done right away, you can recover but ............if it happens at super high altitude the conditions don't exist for a swift recovery and it progresses into a tail first drop that is not recoverable.
Believe me, when you fall from 41,000 feet tail first, you have plenty of time to try every single permutation of controls and power settings.
Did you turn the engine off and extend the landing gear?
-
Btw. three-point means landing on all three wheels. Flair it a few feet over the runway. Keep it gliding level with power off, and keep pulling the stick back as she slows down. When she stalls and drops down on the runway keep the stick all the way back; that engages the tail-wheel lock. With the tail-wheel locked she will roll pretty straight with only minor corrections needed with rudder. When she slows down to pedestrian speeds engage the wheel brakes; if she lifts her tail up you're still rolling too fast for brakes.
Same for taxiing: Pull the stick back all the way to lock the tail-wheel. Release only when making sharp turns.
-
Engine off (not idle... Off!), gear down, opposite rudder and push nose down.
Thanks.
The stall is the only reason I don't fly her in furballs.
Although if I'm stalling it I'm doing it wrong :rofl
-
Does the above 152 recovery procedure have any bearing on RL ?
I think not.
-
Did you turn the engine off and extend the landing gear?
You do understand what "every single permutation of controls and power settings" means?
-
You do understand what "every single permutation of controls and power settings" means?
English isn't my first language so help me out here: Do you consider the landing gear to be part of the controls or a power setting? Please help me understand.
-
Does the above 152 recovery procedure have any bearing on RL ?
I think not.
I shall endeavor to remember that the next time I am flying it in RL.
-
English isn't my first language so help me out here: Do you consider the landing gear to be part of the controls or a power setting? Please help me understand.
Yes.....every single control.
This includes the landing gear you mentioned, firing guns, every trim control from one end to the other, all of the auto modes, engine off, engine on, engine full, engine partial, + and - signs used full and in between.
Yes....all controls.
You have a very long time to try "everything" when you entered the tail straight down fall from 41,000 feet.
The conditions are a little different up there which allows you to get into the state in which you fall tail first straight down.
It's not a spin because you are not spinning.