F4U-4 vs. other low ENY

[titanic3]

Also, F4U can hang on to its prop a lot longer than other comparable fighters can. K4, La7, Tempest, all start flopping and falling shortly after 100mph. F4U4 will hang on for a while longer thanks to the flaps and rudder. Spit16 and Yak3 might be able to hang on as well but they lose out in the other aspects of a dogfight, namely turn radius.

[Lusche]

  All a Tempest can do is run or die when facing an F4U-4.

Interestingly the Tempest has killed consistently more F4U-4s over the years than the other way around.

Surely the F4U4 is the better dogfighter (in a classic 'honorable' duel my money would be all on the F4U-4), but one in need of a more experienced hand than the Tempest to utilize it's strengths. In the context of MA combat, the Tempest is simply the better killer (feel free to replace that with 'picker' if you like). And that's why the Temp is competing with the 262 for the top of the MA food chain all those years, and never the F4U-4.

[RotBaron]

Did you read our responses?  It seems not based on this reply.  Also, your speed on the deck number was off, you put the F4U-4 in 3rd place when it would be in second, beating both the P-51D and Bf109K-4.

The problem is you are isolating performance characteristics and ranking them without consideration of how important they are, how closely matched they are or how the whole of them meshes together to work in combat.

The F4U-4 is superior, by a significant margin, to every other piston engined fighter in the game.  This has been demonstrated repeatedly through the years.  All a Tempest can do is run or die when facing an F4U-4.

Yes, uhhhh how could I be responding to the responses to my post if I didn't read them  

Wrong according the charts I used: 1st = La7 359mph, 2nd = P51 355mph,  3rd = F4U-4 351mph, and K-4 339  that is the speed on the deck = 500' according to Gonzoville charts. HT's charts don't give me an exact # but based off of visual perception it looks like Gonzoville is still correct.

Do you fly in the LWMA? If so you'd know that whatever the -4 can do above ~15k is relevant to only a few, as I stated, ~75% of the fight is taking place below that. You take out the ftr vs. bomber above 10k I wonder how much kills above ~12k would amount to % wise.

[RotBaron]

deleted = repost

[Karnak]

Interestingly the Tempest has killed consistently more F4U-4s over the years than the other way around.

Surely the F4U4 is the better dogfighter (in a classic 'honorable' duel my money would be all on the F4U-4), but one in need of a more experienced hand than the Tempest to utilize it's strengths. In the context of MA combat, the Tempest is simply the better killer (feel free to replace that with 'picker' if you like). And that's why the Temp is competing with the 262 for the top of the MA food chain all those years, and never the F4U-4.

Tempest is a better MA plane, and its numbers and perk price reflect that.

Yes, uhhhh how could I be responding to the responses to my post if I didn't read them 

You didn't seem to take anything we said into consideration.

Wrong according the charts I used: 1st = La7 359mph, 2nd = P51 355mph,  3rd = F4U-4 351mph, and K-4 339  that is the speed on the deck = 500' according to Gonzoville charts. HT's charts don't give me an exact # but based off of visual perception it looks like Gonzoville is still correct.

MIL speeds are not really the speeds that matter in combat terms.  Look at WEP speeds for AH combat comparisons.

Do you fly in the LWMA? If so you'd know that whatever the -4 can do above ~15k is relevant to only a few, as I stated, ~75% of the fight is taking place below that. You take out the ftr vs. bomber above 10k I wonder how much kills above ~12k would amount to % wise.

Yes.  I have not been considering its performance at alt relevant, just as I never considered the Spit XIV's performance at alt relevant.

[RotBaron]

Also, earlier there was some mention of it being late development and few in comparison.

While that is true in comparison with the roughly other 11,000+ Corsairs produced, it actually saw service earlier than the La-7 if what I read was correct. It said Nov '44 on the -4 and  Dec/Jan on the La-7 actually being flown in combat. The -4 was built and ready way before it saw combat.

Another interesting note, of all the some odd 12,000 Corsairs flown by the US (100's of variants given/lend to other countries) less than 1/4 of combat sorties ever took off from a carrier. And by far far and away, the Corsair was flown by the Marines and their land based air fields.

Honestly if we're going for the has to be realistic, therefore...well then only a few Corsairs should really be taking off a carrier, somewhere around 15 for every 100.

[Lusche]

Honestly if we're going for the has to be realistic, therefore..

But we aren't at least, not as the RL service numbers vs AH 'usage' are related. No plane or GV had ever been limited in any way in AH for this reason. Else the Ostwind would have to be perked to the sky

[RotBaron]

Tempest is a better MA plane, and its numbers and perk price reflect that.

You didn't seem to take anything we said into consideration.
MIL speeds are not really the speeds that matter in combat terms.  Look at WEP speeds for AH combat comparisons.
Yes.  I have not been considering its performance at alt relevant, just as I never considered the Spit XIV's performance at alt relevant.

With WEP 8mph slower than La, and 5 faster than K-4 at 500', K-4 becomes faster at 3k.  Overall up to ~10k, it is still 3rd in terms of speed.

As far as taking into consideration...and "we/our."  I'm not sure who the "we" is, but I did say "some of you writing these responses," so I'll be more direct too. It seems like there's a crowd here that resists change. In the relatively short stay here, I've noticed it frequently, it's prevalent and outspoken. Karnak you had 10 sorties for 6 kills in a ftr in the last tour, I'm not going to look up every tour, but if you aren't spending a lot of time in here, are you sure have a fresh memory of the makeup?

At this point all I can say is again it seems a lot, certainly not all, jump all over the suggestion of change. I came upon this subject because higher alt fighters than my -4 were making life difficult and I thought why would anyone pay perks for this plane where if a P-51 happens to be above you he has every advantage. If it had cannon then maybe I could see that being inline with the Tempest. Then I thought ok, well surely there must be one place where the -4 dominates and justifies its' perk price vs. non-perks. I can't find it; Pony beats it up high (turn radius is even closer,) La and Spits beat it down low, and the K-4 beats it in the middle range.

Beings that refuse to accept change often are overtaken by change and disappear throughout history. There isn't any area where that doesn't apply, ergo AH.

[Karnak]

Honestly if we're going for the has to be realistic, therefore...well then only a few Corsairs should really be taking off a carrier, somewhere around 15 for every 100.

AH does a binary, yes/no, consideration for carriers.  Just as 25% of Spitfire sorties aren't required to be Spitfire Mk Vs, despite about 25% of Spitfires built being Spitfire Mk Vs.  For the most part it is a sandbox game where we do what we want with the tools made available by the developer.

With WEP 8mph slower than La, and 5 faster than K-4 at 500', K-4 becomes faster at 3k.  Overall up to ~10k, it is still 3rd in terms of speed.

Now factor in the agility and ballistics that so greatly favor the F4U-4 over the Bf109K-4.  The K-4's slight edge in speed at 10k and its better climb/acceleration isn't enough to make it the better fighter.

[Saxman]

RotBaron:

No, you're NOT listening. No one's arguing that Plane A has an advantage in Stat 3 according to Chart W. What we ARE saying is that the F4U-4 is what it is because of the sum of its parts. Even at the low-altitudes that dominate Main Arena play, the F4U-4 WILL destroy the La-7, P-51D and 109K-4. This has been demonstrated, REPEATEDLY, over the however many years the -4 has existed.

But if you're so interested in charts and stats...

Top speed is, frankly, not really that important. It matters only if you're in an extended tail chase where you have plenty of time to get up to speed, or happen to already be flying at top speed. What REALLY matters is acceleration. In which case:

1) The F4U-4 has a 1.5s advantage over the P-51D from 150-200. At the full range from 150 to 300 that advantage increases to almost FOUR SECONDS. From an equal start, if the P-51D tries to escape, the Corsair is going to run it down LONG before the Pony's advantage in top speed comes into play.

2) The 109K-4 has the biggest acceleration advantage. It's about .9 seconds at the bottom end, and 1.2 over the full range to 300. If he tries to drag to get away, he really better hope that Hog is a lousy shot or has a big lead to begin with, because he's not going to open very fast.

3) The La-7 also has an advantage, of about HALF A SECOND over both the low-end and full range.

And if we're talking about a drag race to top speed, The F4U-4 is superior to all three in top end acceleration (300-350mph). In fact the F4U-4 has a full 2 seconds on the 109K-4, which will essentially NEGATE the 109's acceleration advantage to 300.

(Comparisons can be found here http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php though this site is pretty old and I can't say how any FM changes affect this).

Similarly, sustained rate of climb becomes much less important compared to the Zoom. That I don't have figures on, but the F4U-4 can REALLY hold its E due to its mass, engine power, and those four giant paddles up the front dragging it through the air.

[RotBaron]

RotBaron:

No, you're NOT listening.

(Comparisons can be found here http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php though this site is pretty old and I can't say how any FM changes affect this).

As I've stated, that's the website I've derived the majority of this information from. I've done a visual check with HT's data because it's linear and not a precise point on a chart I've eyedballed to make sure Gonzoville isn't out of line with an update or something.

[Saxman]

I came upon this subject because higher alt fighters than my -4 were making life difficult and I thought why would anyone pay perks for this plane where if a P-51 happens to be above you he has every advantage.

You can honestly say that even an A6M2 with an alt advantage over your F4U-4 has every advantage in the fight, so what's your point? Learn how to deal with high cons.

As I've stated, that's the website I've cherry-picked the majority of this information from.

Fixed.

[ink]

Did you read our responses?  It seems not based on this reply.  Also, your speed on the deck number was off, you put the F4U-4 in 3rd place when it would be in second, beating both the P-51D and Bf109K-4.

The problem is you are isolating performance characteristics and ranking them without consideration of how important they are, how closely matched they are or how the whole of them meshes together to work in combat.

The F4U-4 is superior, by a significant margin, to every other piston engined fighter in the game.  This has been demonstrated repeatedly through the years.  All a Tempest can do is run or die when facing an F4U-4.

.......I disagree.....

I have seen it said....but never proven......I took one of the guys who has been in game a very long time...who is an Avid Hog driver....that is just about all he drives.....who is well versed in ACM and holding E.....

he took every Hog we have in the hanger....

and in about 12 fights not once did he come close to killing me in the Ki84...the U4 just took me a bit longer.

Ki84 is the best fighter in game....all things considered when it comes to being a fighter.

(spits come very close but for their frailty I say Ki is better)

[RotBaron]

The final consideration I have time for today is:

When is the last time you saw a -4 take off from a CV on a base take? I don't ever recall. As a matter of fact, I'm lucky to run across a -4 once a week. There's only a few things I can conclude:  the perk price is too high, a lot ppl don't seem to like it/corsairs, or the one's who might are already in the C-hog, or a combination of the above. Lusche: maybe you have the data on the -4 usage? I'd bet it is a hangar queen and therefore have to ask why is that? ~24perks is why??? hmmm not so sure there.


Honestly, when base taking from a CV, Corsairs are like a dump truck to get to an E state that will allow you to make a few passes on town and survive the uppers. If there were another CV plane that carried rockets then I wouldn't be flying Corsairs from the CV to deack town.

I've had my eye out for them for the past tour+ because I've wanted to watch and learn. It's rare I see one...

   be back tonight

[Lusche]

That reminds me of the guys predicting havoc in the MA if the Spit 14 ever was to be unperked "It's a monster and will totally dominate!" . Selectively chosing the (impressive) paper performance of top speed, climb rate and turning radius while refusing to look at the whole package and ignoring things like the huge handling issues.

Rot, you are doing the same thing here, just in the other direction.