Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: 33Vortex on August 11, 2013, 12:42:52 PM
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The action this last friday FSO was great, from our perspective. I am sure some will disagree, maybe they were shot down, maybe they discoed. As for getting shot down well, we've all been shot down in AH haven't we, and it can be a bummer but remember it's a game and as such the #1 reason we are all here is to have fun and it's only after that our priorities start to differ from player to player. In JG11, the squadron I'm priviliged to be a part of, we take great pleasure in flying as a squadron (staffel if you will), working as one single team toward the same end goal and not let our comrades down. That, is what brings me to the subject of this letter.
JG11 had orders to fly a staffel of 109s as escort for a strike package of mixed bombers, we had a rendezvous (did I spell that right??) point about halfway across the channel. It was there we were headed at the point Stampf discoed. We were all flying together in formation on 270 level flight in tight order as he disappeared, then reappeared a couple km behind us, our CO and flight lead had discoed. Someone stated the obvious on vox and I think we all thought the same, it's ok he'll be able to log back on and right back into his plane. Imagine then, the disappointment when it became known that he wasn't allowed back into the arena. The reason given was... that combat had been joined on mainland Britain several sectors away... some seconds ago! Ok, so I can buy the concept of not coming back into the arena... if the fields are closed. IF this is... as I have heard it to be, a denial to enter because combat was joined 100 miles away a minute before or so... it is my personal opinion that it is unacceptable behavior by a person administering the arena for the enjoyment of others. That is right, this is a game and there is one interest we all share and have common in this, air combat. In case you failed to see that point already, we log on friday night to have FUN. There are NO lives at stake. Personally FSOs start 5 am my time, and if this would have happened to me... you could just as well have pissed in my morning coffe after the 1½ hrs of sleep I got before the kids woke me up.
Now this didn't happen to me, it happened to Stampf. My CO who I know from some years back when we flew Der Grosse Schlag together, I and JG11 as a group look to him as a leader in flight and within the squad. Now, we did ok without him, had lots of fun flying together... I was fortunate to score some kills, some were less fortunate. It goes with the game we play.
What does not go with the game was what happened to Stampf. He was denied his fun that night. He could easily have been allowed back in and it would not have been noticed, it would not have affected the frame in any other way than that he would have been there having fun with us all (imaginary foes and all). I am asking WHY? I hear it was because Plissken did not accept him back into the arena. Well, who is Plissken? I do not know you, I have never met you, we've never spoken. At best I think I recall seing your name somewhere in text buffer as any other fellow AH player. Regardless of who you are, and you may be a respected and good person in your family and among friends, but I do not agree with nor do I like what you did friday night. It is not acceptable behavior for someone administering a event, to decide who gets to play and who doesn't, not without a reasonable cause.
So, what was it that caused you to lock a player out of the arena? If you can not come forward with a reasonable explanation to this, I must ask you to either be relieved of your duties, or heavily reprimanded. It is what would happen in real life, and this is real life. What happens in the game is not, but we are all people meeting in this game to have fun and when you deny a person that fun and deny some 16 people the fun of enjoying the game together something is out of order, if there was no clear cut rule break motivating the action.
I demand to get a explanation to this, for JG11 and I was denied this friday the fun we are all paying for and to function as intended as a unit. It affected our performance to some degree, although unknown, just as it also affected other squads we were co-operating with. What happened, if I've perceived this correctly, go beyond the game, it goes into a personal area as a insult. To Stampf primarily, as he was the person left out this friday night for no particular reason, but also for me and JG11. That is what is unacceptable, and I personally do not accept an apology but I'd accept a explanation so that it can become known exactly what happened and why.
To Plissken and the community I <S> you for all you've done for this friday and in the game overall. Without all of you, this game would not be what it is.
:salute
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I will address some of your comments...
Well, who is Plissken?
Plissken is a member of the CM team, and works the FSO as a setup/bouncer. This means sometimes he works for 30 minutes or so to help before the event to make sure the roster is clean and everyone is showing in a registered squad; sometimes he's the guy who logs in an hour or two before the event to set up the arena according to the design, and stays until the event is over and everyone has left. A Setup's job typically lasts 3-4 hours and they do not get to fly because they are busy hosting the event.
So, what was it that caused you to lock a player out of the arena?
It is not acceptable behavior for someone administering a event, to decide who gets to play and who doesn't, not without a reasonable cause.
The rules. It is stated that fields close 15 minutes after the event starts...except for discos OR COMBAT HAS BEEN JOINED. Flight is disabled, the arena is not locked and nobody is denied entry to the arena. Once the fighting starts, the only way back into the air is if the disco reconnect feature works; and it seems to depend on the nature of the disco, because I've heard reports that it works for some but not others. The rule about not letting people re-up after combat starts is because there will always be some people that will claim to be discoed when they were actually shot down, and we cannot tell when someone discos, so to be fair we don't allow people to re-up once the bullets start flying.
If you can not come forward with a reasonable explanation to this, I must ask you to either be relieved of your duties, or heavily reprimanded.
We debrief and discuss events in our CM discussion forum, and if there is ever an issue with a CM, believe me when I say we deal with it as a CM team and will not discuss matters in public. What happened to your squad was unfortunate timing, nothing more.
I demand to get a explanation to this, for JG11 and I was denied this friday the fun we are all paying for and to function as intended as a unit.
We will listen and respond to questions. We will take criticism and suggestions for possible changes or enhancements to events. Making demands is not the way to engage our team.
and I personally do not accept an apology but I'd accept a explanation so that it can become known exactly what happened and why.
You will not get an apology for what happened, as there was no wrong-doing. I have explained what happens during an event and why. I think we can move past this now and enjoy the game again.
:salute
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While I see the reasoning behind it, I also discoed right before combat started. Literally as I entered the arena, my CO said "sorry bud, combat just joined".
I was severely disappointed, since it was the first time I could fly FSO in almost 2 years.
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Perhaps I was not clear enough but any apology would have no effect, the damage is done and nothing short of time travel would get us back to friday night.
I appreciate that you do not prefer to discuss openly matters concerning the CM team however when someone is asking a question openly there should be no need for secrecy, unless there is something to hide. Did you look into this matter, a simple lack of desire to deal with a problem of this sort will not reflect positively on the team. My inquiry is warranted as the action taken deprived one player (and customer) of his friday squad operations experience. If that is your policy, as a CM team, to play god who gets to play and who doesn't outside of given rules well I need not say more. It is unclear even whether Stampf discoed before or after combat was joined, would you care to look into that matter even?
Why are we here? Why do we log on? What was the problem you had with Stamp friday night so that he was denied FSO? What exactly happened?
If you feel that you don't want to answer those questions, or don't have to. What are you doing as a FSO CM?
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There is a rule that states no reups after combat is joined. In a nutshell that's the reason the reup was denied at least from the info I have right at the moment. That being said I am looking into the disco reup rules we have in FSO and the incident in question. That's all I can say about it right now. We are never happy about a FSO player in good standing not being able to participate whatever the reason or circumstances might be.
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There is a rule that states no reups after combat is joined. In a nutshell that's the reason the reup was denied at least from the info I have right at the moment. That being said I am looking into the disco reup rules we have in FSO. That's all I can say about it right now. We are never happy about a FSO player in good standing not being able to participate whatever the reason or circumstances might be.
Thankyou, I appreciate that. Perhaps the rules might be re-written then (if possible) so that players a hundred miles from combat could be able to re-join flight? I know we are working with some technical restraints here, so it may not be possible. But if possible, I am of the opinion that it should be considered. It could happen to me next time, and I would not be happy about it considering that I have to exchange sleep for FSO.
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Had to explain myself in our squad forum. I do this on my own initiative, and want that to be clear to everyone involved. If this was done for unjust cause, something should be done. If that is a rewrite of the rules, change of staff or whatever I do not know. I just think that when people invest much in this (game) activity no other player should have the right to deny anyone their fun without just cause. That is all I am asking.
My post reveal that I'm of the opinion that Plissken did wrong, but I do not have all the facts and am not 100% sure. So, my post is all about openly inquiring into the matter to get to what really happened, and get it out in the open. If you read my post differently please let me know.
It was unfortunate what happened friday night, and I want to know what happened. I did this on my own initiative without talking to anyone beforehand, as I personally want the answers out in the open.
:salute
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Depending the volume of Players discoing, would it be practical to check their squad affiliation, and use the .wingman command to locate one of their squad mates?
If they're in combat, no reup. If not, let them fly.
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In every game the refs are the refs, and they gotta make the calls. Sometimes the calls are good, sometimes they aren't, but in every game, the refs are right even when they're wrong. The reason is simple, there has to be a line somewhere, and no matter where it is, there are always going to be cases where it's too close to call - but the refs have to call it anyway, because that's their job. It takes an incredible amount of work to put these events on, nobody gets paid for doing it, they do it 'cuz they love it. I don't know all the CM staff, but I have seen enough to have faith in their integrity. They aren't out to screw anyone, they want everyone to have fun too, and I guarantee no-one likes making unpopular calls. They still gotta make 'em though, because if they don't then it's a free-for-all. Yeah, it sucks when the call goes against you, but sportsmanship comes in rising above that and coming back stronger next time.
Paul
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Sportsmanship is not about being stupid. Sportsmanship in this context is about having the honor and courtesy to let the admins do their job. But what about if they aren't? How about they deny you the right to re-up even if you come back before combat is joined? Would you shut up because the fun police is in town?
Stampf
22:05:49 Departed from Field #116 in a Bf 109E-4
22:25:16 Vanished without a trace.
At what time exactly did combat commence? Also, does the log book the disco correctly at the time the player connection is lost, or is the time noted for when the AI controlled plane is gone?
Additionally, Plissken apparently participated in the event himself contrary to what is stated above.
plissken
22:05:54 Departed from Field #46 in a Hurricane Mk I
22:36:10 Shot down a Ju 87D-3 flown by RickyZ33.
22:36:52 Shot down a Ju 87D-3 flown by doc1aga.
22:53:03 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #37.
23:04:19 Shot down a He 111H flown by BLBird.
23:05:45 Awarded kill as Stang crashes.
23:10:14 Arrived Safely at Field #44
And that is according to the logs. So what is really going on is what I'm asking? Was Plissken partial in this? I personally would not think so, but one has to ask the question if the admin is actively taking part in the event.
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I think most of us that have played FSO long enough have been in Stampf's position, or worse yet, discoes just as combat has been joined and in the midst of giving orders (worst case). Yes it ticks us off, but we go with the rules, and help our squad how we can without actively flying (eg. ride along with your wingman and still give orders and check 6's, and be the official text buffer monitor and typer). I'm confident the CM's are discussing this event currently, and assure you this was nothing personal against Stampf or JG11. Trust me when I say Stampf and JG11 are held in highest requard in this game. This was simply a standing rule that caught Stampf at a bad spot, and the rule is probably currently under review.
:salute
BigRat
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The rules appear to read 15 min. or if combat has been joined, so it looks to have been the correct call per rule. Sucks but there it is! Maybe rule tweaking is in order, but demanding something --really? As was said ,it is after all just a game and mostly staffed by volunteers. I would be shocked if there were anything nefarious about this happening.
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Frankly I am questioning if the rules were followed even. ImADot participated also in the event thus I must question his post above. I don't want to ban CMs from having fun but if it impairs their impartial function as admins then what is there to do?
The earliest recorded loss I've found, yet not awarded to anyone so could be a crash???
oHUSKERo
22:07:09 Departed from Field #123 in a Ju 87D-3
22:10:24 Was shot down by (crashed).
Next to go down was.
tripleS
22:04:56 Departed from Field #101 in a Ju 87D-3
22:26:40 Was shot down by and captured.
The last LW upper was.
SIRB
22:09:18 Departed from Field #123 in a Ju 87D-3
The last RAF upper was from the same squad (~~~THE UNFORGIVEN~~~) as plissken, clearly after combat was joined if the above is correct.
RELIC
22:23:25 Departed from Field #46 in a Hurricane Mk I
ZZZ_NO_SQUAD
RandallJ
22:19:03 Departed from Field #35 in a Spitfire Mk I
162ndFG\"Purple*Hearts\"
WyteNyte
22:16:49 Departed from Field #64 in a Spitfire Mk I
So if the logs show correctly, it is OK for the RAF to up after combat is joined, but not for the LW. If this is correct someone did wrong and explanation is due. Or is this acceptable policy? :headscratch:
If the first loss is incorrect and and the first loss was at 22:26:40 the decision to deny Stampf to rejoin can be questioned. If the first loss is correct there are RAF players who SHOULD have been grounded. So something is not right here, CMs get to pick which one and what policy you are enforcing here. Or are the logs rubbish altogether?
:rolleyes:
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Your research does raise some questions. To be clear 33Vortex, My backside was one your group was covering. You guys did an outstanding job as we landed most of our bombers! :salute
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There is another possibility, that the above two first recorded Luftwaffe losses were from auto-ack and thus irrelevant. Which leaves us with a potentially even later time for combat joined. (???)
Your research does raise some questions. To be clear 33Vortex, My backside was one your group was covering. You guys did an outstanding job as we landed most of our bombers! :salute
Thankyou pops57, we did what we could do to keep you clear. Me and Zambelli chased two spits to your formation, and as you came into tag range a flight of hurris appeared above and then the world turned upside down for a while. I am grateful for not having taken friendly fire from the bomber gunners, that's very cool headed in that type of situation if you ask me. It was very close range fighting.
:salute
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Frankly I am questioning if the rules were followed even. ImADot participated also in the event thus I must question his post above. I don't want to ban CMs from having fun but if it impairs their impartial function as admins then what is there to do?
The earliest recorded loss I've found, yet not awarded to anyone so could be a crash???
oHUSKERo
22:07:09 Departed from Field #123 in a Ju 87D-3
22:10:24 Was shot down by (crashed).
Next to go down was.
tripleS
22:04:56 Departed from Field #101 in a Ju 87D-3
22:26:40 Was shot down by and captured.
The last LW upper was.
SIRB
22:09:18 Departed from Field #123 in a Ju 87D-3
The last RAF upper was from the same squad (~~~THE UNFORGIVEN~~~) as plissken, clearly after combat was joined if the above is correct.
RELIC
22:23:25 Departed from Field #46 in a Hurricane Mk I
ZZZ_NO_SQUAD
RandallJ
22:19:03 Departed from Field #35 in a Spitfire Mk I
162ndFG\"Purple*Hearts\"
WyteNyte
22:16:49 Departed from Field #64 in a Spitfire Mk I
So if the logs show correctly, it is OK for the RAF to up after combat is joined, but not for the LW. If this is correct someone did wrong and explanation is due. Or is this acceptable policy? :headscratch:
If the first loss is incorrect and and the first loss was at 22:26:40 the decision to deny Stampf to rejoin can be questioned. If the first loss is correct there are RAF players who SHOULD have been grounded. So something is not right here, CMs get to pick which one and what policy you are enforcing here. Or are the logs rubbish altogether?
:rolleyes:
there's a time difference between when you first see the enemy and until somebody dies. I got my kill about 5 minutes after I had started firing my first round. by then we had been in a combat situation for 15 minutes and that was just in our sector. there were reports of airplanes in other sectors at least 25 minutes before then.
semp
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First recorded kill on RAF side was;
shamus
22:04:38 Departed from Field #41 in a Hurricane Mk I
22:28:02 Shot down a Bf 109E-4 flown by cujo.
Closely followed by;
Stresser
22:04:35 Departed from Field #46 in a Hurricane Mk I
22:28:48 Shot down a Ju 87D-3 flown by InCrypt.
So my questions still stand. When exactly was combat joined and where? Was Stampf denied re-entry with just cause? The logs show that these questions are warranted.
Respectfully :salute
/Turner
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there's a time difference between when you first see the enemy and until somebody dies. I got my kill about 5 minutes after I had started firing my first round. by then we had been in a combat situation for 15 minutes and that was just in our sector. there were reports of airplanes in other sectors at least 25 minutes before then.
semp
I am fully aware of this uncertainty factor. The questions still stand.
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I'm not sure I'm understanding Vortex when he says Stampf wasn't allowed back into the arena, or he wasn't allowed to re-up. If he wasn't allowed back into the arena then that would be a legitimate complaint, but if he wasn't allowed to re-up then that would be as per rule. As ImADot states in his responce;
It is stated that fields close 15 minutes after the event starts...except for discos OR COMBAT HAS BEEN JOINED. Flight is disabled, the arena is not locked and nobody is denied entry to the arena. Once the fighting starts, the only way back into the air is if the disco reconnect feature works; and it seems to depend on the nature of the disco, because I've heard reports that it works for some but not others. The rule about not letting people re-up after combat starts is because there will always be some people that will claim to be discoed when they were actually shot down, and we cannot tell when someone discos, so to be fair we don't allow people to re-up once the bullets start flying.
:salute
If the disco reconnect didn't work for Stampf that sux, but it is the way it is, and he should have been free to join another's plane as an observer. If he wasn't allowed back into the arena then that would be a different issue and should be addressed by the CM staff. Personally I don't think the rule needs to be reviewed. It's straightforward as to what is and isn't allowed. With the addition of the disco reconnect feature there is even the opportunity to rejoin the fight, but it doesn't always work the way it's expected to. As BigRat stated Stampf and JG11 are held in high regard by just about everyone in AH, and I find it highly unlikely that anything was done maliciously to keep Stampf from flying in FSO.
Honestly Vortex I think you're out of line accusing the CM's of not following the rules. Your evidence is slipshod at best. The last RAF upper is a full two minutes before Stampf disco'd. The first LW plane to be shot down in your example was just three minutes after launching and most likely was a simple crash probably because of the clouds. It doesn't even fall within the fifteen minute rule. The first LW plane that actually appears to be shot down in your example is a minute and a half after Stampf's disco. You might want to discuss these accusations with your squad before bringing them here, and if they feel that something improper was done let the squad's leadership deal with it in an appropriate manor.
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Yeah that was quite a BB gun fest, like I said you guys really covered us well making it possible for most of our group to score good drops. :salute
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I thought I was clear enough about this, that this post was made by me without the support of JG11 and does not represent JG11 or JG11 command. I had to explain myself to the squad, as you can see above if you care to read it.
Is it too much to ask questions around here? Inconveniences not allowed, controversy frowned upon as ignorance?
What is this, a popularity contest?
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I thought I was clear enough about this, that this post was made by me without the support of JG11 and does not represent JG11 or JG11 command. I had to explain myself to the squad, as you can see above if you care to read it.
Is it too much to ask questions around here? Inconveniences not allowed, controversy frowned upon as ignorance?
What is this, a popularity contest?
You're not asking questions your making accusations. Try talking to Stampf he is your CO, and the one that wasn't able to fly in FSO. Does he feel like he was unfairly kept from FSO, and if so has he contacted the CM's? The only person the CM's owe an explanation too is Stampf. If he feels he was done wrong then the CM's should explain it to him. If he wants to tell you what they said that would be up to him.
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More than the reupping issue, I'm now concerned about the impartiality of the CM's.
I don't care if they're doing it knowingly, or if their participation compromises their ability to manage the event. But it needs to stop.
The fact that there is a sizable discrepancy between the last uppers is a HUGE issue for me. If the job is too big for one person, I will volunteer my time to deal with discos and reupping exclusively. But impartiality in an area that could deny someone their fun is 100% unacceptable.
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I am fully aware of this uncertainty factor. The questions still stand.
on my film at 15 minutes it was announced that fields were closed. at 21 minutes and 55 seconds the first report of vis on enemy con was announced. almost a minute after that it was announced that fields were closed. I am pretty sure the delay between vis and actually is because there isnt a button to just press and close the fields then automatically type that "fields are closed"
now according to my own record in fso I took off at 22:04:25 so add to that 21 minutes and 55 seconds, we come up with 22:26:30. so stamf discoed at 22:25:16 so he would have had to disco'd and relog send pm in about a minute and 15 seconds.
but you can always ask other members of your squad if they recorded their sorties and compare versions.
semp
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I had another squaddie disco before combat joined. He was confused when re came back, then approached a CM. Im not sure which one but that CM told him to go to ImaDot. Finally after 5 mins he still couldnt take off when I approached channel 202. Unclkurt said there is nothing he can do because combat was joined literally 90 seconds ago and Freytag never approached him until it was too late. Well, poor old Freytag came back way before combat was joined, even though combat was 225 miles away from my squad. But since a communication breakdown occurred among the CM's on duty, he was unable to fly. He discoed in the first place to the freaking clouds.
I, like Jager, understand the purpose of the rule. However, there needs to be a little reform. If combat is 200 miles away, let him take off and have fun.
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If combat is 200 miles away, let him take off and have fun.
Exactly.
And don't mind the accusations, for they have no substance without evidence. I am asking questions that are motivated by these uncertanties. If you take my "accusations" to heart and play that card, well... do I really have to expand on that?
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Exactly.
And don't mind the accusations, for they have no substance without evidence. I am asking questions that are motivated by these uncertanties. If you take my "accusations" to heart and play that card, well... do I really have to expand on that?
Accusations without substance taint the entire FSO. It encourages the malcontents to join the "mob" and to call out for the lynching of those involved. Again you are not just asking questions you are making accusations founded on poorly interpreted information. I find it peculiar that no other member of JG11 has come forth to support your claim of inappropriate behavior by the CM's. Who are all volunteers btw, and do this so that we can enjoy the game that we enjoy. Like I said previously Stampf and JG11 is held in high regard by the members of this community and I question why a member of such a squad is making such unsubstantiated accusations.
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Accusations without substance taint the entire FSO. It encourages the malcontents to join the "mob" and to call out for the lynching of those involved. Again you are not just asking questions you are making accusations founded on poorly interpreted information. I find it peculiar that no other member of JG11 has come forth to support your claim of inappropriate behavior by the CM's. Who are all volunteers btw, and do this so that we can enjoy the game that we enjoy. Like I said previously Stampf and JG11 is held in high regard by the members of this community and I question why a member of such a squad is making such unsubstantiated accusations.
Unsubstantiated? Look at the logs! Allied pilots upped after several German pilots were refused. If it's not inappropriate, then it's sure as hell negligent of you guys.
As a paying customer and FSO participant, I demand that action be taken to rectify this issue, should it occur again. It's not acceptable, end of story.
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Unsubstantiated? Look at the logs! Allied pilots upped after several German pilots were refused. If it's not inappropriate, then it's sure as hell negligent of you guys.
As a paying customer and FSO participant, I demand that action be taken to rectify this issue, should it occur again. It's not acceptable, end of story.
Where do you see that allied pilots were allowed to up after axis pilots were denied? The latest time for an allied pilot to up posted by Vortex was 22:23:25 more than a full minute before Stampf disco'd. I stand by my previous statement, and I'm not going to go through the logs to try and substantiate your witch hunt. By your own CO's admission your guy was confused and didn't ask permission to up within the proper time frame. I had another squaddie disco before combat joined. He was confused when re came back, then approached a CM. Im not sure which one but that CM told him to go to ImaDot. Finally after 5 mins he still couldnt take off when I approached channel 202. Unclkurt said there is nothing he can do because combat was joined literally 90 seconds ago and Freytag never approached him until it was too late. Well, poor old Freytag came back way before combat was joined, even though combat was 225 miles away from my squad. But since a communication breakdown occurred among the CM's on duty, he was unable to fly. He discoed in the first place to the freaking clouds.
I, like Jager, understand the purpose of the rule. However, there needs to be a little reform. If combat is 200 miles away, let him take off and have fun.
I don't think special rules should be made just because you weren't able to follow the rules that were in place. If combat has been joined you can not re-up. I don't care how far from the action you claim to be.
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It's most unfortunate what happened but it appears to merely be enforcing the rules as they are written. As to if the rule is well worded, I'll only tell that it has happened to me and it sucked. I had read the rules and well knew I was out for the night.
The rule as worded (Discos may re-up up to 30 minutes after the hour (if there is no enemy engagement).) does leave a grey area as to if it's allowable to let a pilot re-up after a disco if his squad was not engaged or if it encompass the whole theater. In my memories, it was always enforced as a whole theater, if any combat start on the map, it's game over. I can only make assumption as to the why's, probably related to the need to limit the amount of micro-management required. It's easier to lock things up as the first engagement reports comes in than to verify if each disco has seen combat. Of more interest would be the how the beginning of combat is assessed.
You make very grave accusations and I see no proof in what has been posted so far that the rules were broken by anyone. I have no reason to question the integrity of the CM team either. Your case lie on very shaky ground with only anecdotal proof. To "ask you to either be relieved of your duties, or heavily reprimanded" on those premises is questionable at best.
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Where do you see that allied pilots were allowed to up after axis pilots were denied? The latest time for an allied pilot to up posted by Vortex was 22:23:25 more than a full minute before Stampf disco'd. I stand by my previous statement, and I'm not going to go through the logs to try and substantiate your witch hunt. By your own CO's admission your guy was confused and didn't ask permission to up within the proper time frame.
My mistake, I was on my phone at the time of posting, and my phone doesn't like the events logs for some reason. I going on posts by Vortex. I see now that allied pilots were not allowed to up after German pilots were deined (so far as I have seen, still going through the logs).
However, depending on what you constitute as combat, they WERE allowed to up after combat was joined. Stampf discoed before the first recorded kill for the allies, and after the first death by the Germans. For the record, when was combat joined, for this particular event?
It also appears as though the disco is only recorded after your AI towers out, as I discoed twice. Lost connection, tried to log in again, got on the runway for about 10 seconds, lost connection again. Only after that was a disco recorded in the logs. Reconnected, see AI has bailed, "sorry bud, combat was joined".
I don't think special rules should be made just because you weren't able to follow the rules that were in place. If combat has been joined you can not re-up. I don't care how far from the action you claim to be.
We were at our home base! By the nature of the setup, we could not have been in combat. This is corroborated by our entire squadron rearming at our home field within minutes of each other around the time specified; there's no "claim" in it. And to imply we're asking for special treatment frankly pisses me off; we're asking for someone to take a look at the system, and see if it can be improved.
Now I get that you guys have to draw the line somewhere, and run the event; I deal with ornery customers on an almost daily basis. But especially as volunteers, you are there to run the event for our enjoyment. I'm not trying to insinuate anything here, but if our fun isn't a priority, then with all due respect, you probably shouldn't be a CM.
Now it sounds like your workload could be too high; as I've said before, I will gladly donate my time to do nothing but handle discoes and reups, even if it means I can't fly in the event. Say the word, and my Friday evenings are yours.
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For the record, when was combat joined, for this particular event?
I already posted this.
on my film at 15 minutes it was announced that fields were closed. at 21 minutes and 55 seconds the first report of vis on enemy con was announced. almost a minute after that it was announced that fields were closed. I am pretty sure the delay between vis and actually is because there isnt a button to just press and close the fields then automatically type that "fields are closed"
now according to my own record in fso I took off at 22:04:25 so add to that 21 minutes and 55 seconds, we come up with 22:26:30. so stamf discoed at 22:25:16 so he would have had to disco'd and relog send pm in about a minute and 15 seconds.
but you can always ask other members of your squad if they recorded their sorties and compare versions.
semp
semp
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Greetings all.
The logs have me doing the disco dance at 22:21:37. At the time I was formed up with the squad on route to some tea toting party Perd was going on about. After I relogged into AH and found my way back to the tower I was pleasantly surprised and yes, somewhat confused to see squadies flying by the tower.
I initially thought that a mass arena disco had occurred and everybody was reupping , it is not often that one discos in an fso event and finds the rest of the squad at the home field tower. How fortunate.
There was some further confusion on ch 202 concerning when I had discoed, why the squad was still on the runway, had they been assigned aircraft. KN went off to look for trouble and I had locked myself in the tower, I’m never going to live this one down. I did however, discover Devil’s bottle of schnapps and Ruah’s stash of chocolate truffles so it was not a total loss. :aok
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Frankly I am questioning if the rules were followed even. ImADot participated also in the event thus I must question his post above. I don't want to ban CMs from having fun but if it impairs their impartial function as admins then what is there to do?
The earliest recorded loss I've found, yet not awarded to anyone so could be a crash???
oHUSKERo
22:07:09 Departed from Field #123 in a Ju 87D-3
22:10:24 Was shot down by (crashed).
I can confirm husker crashed. Husker is a newlywed, and from what Nightmares understands Huskers bride gained control of his 'joystick' and thus he departed from controlled flight.
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I can confirm husker crashed. Husker is a newlywed, and from what Nightmares understands Huskers bride gained control of his 'joystick' and thus he departed from controlled flight.
This is so far the best info yet to transpire from this event. :rofl
Congratulations to the newlyweds. :salute
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Ok, here are some screenshots that will show what we saw from our perspective. Taken from the film viewer, these screen captures are timed exactly on the second to when each event happened from the perspective of my computer, according to description below.
StampfAI_01 (http://www.mediafire.com/view/z28yrplyljr8h87/StampfAI_01.jpg): The AI plane appears about 10 seconds from when Stampf disappear, and ~2k behind us. The 5 minute timer start ticking. We are still climbing with the coast of France just S of us.
StampfAI_02 (http://www.mediafire.com/view/bhqkw44r4mswvlv/StampfAI_02.jpg): This is the ingame clock (my plane) at exactly the same time the above screengrab is taken, when the 5 minute AI timer is started.
StampfAI_03 (http://www.mediafire.com/view/bloe4g2cf66it4f/StampfAI_03.jpg): The second before the AI plane disappear, this is the view from Stampfs plane, the coast of France is still visible and the bombers are just coming into view.
StampfAI_04 (http://www.mediafire.com/view/g803fn48ukhdnk1/StampfAI_04.jpg): The same view but from my plane.
StampfAI_05 (http://www.mediafire.com/view/bmr5o7cxa3l4l0p/StampfAI_05.jpg): Ingame clock at the same second the previous two screengrabs were taken.
The timeline above make me doubt if correct procedure was followed. I have no experience of reconnecting back to a AI plane, but if the player is not able to get back up into the AI plane must he then wait for the AI plane to disappear before upping from a field? If so, then that would have prevented Stampf in this case to even hava a chance to re-up. If he was back in the arena within 2 minutes but the re-connect to the plane failed he would have been forced to wait 3 more minutes and by that time combat was joined. I see no reason to ground him for that still, because he was in that example back before combat was joined but unable to up so it would be unfair to be grounded for that reason. At those times it's important to remember why we are here, and not be anal about the rules just because you think that's your job. In this example it would be a judgement call and I personally would not rob a person of his FSO because of unfortunate circumstances. I think that's stupid.
In light of this event, it is my opinion that there should be tools implemented to give CMs the ability to see all planes in the arena, to allow discos not in combat back into the arena. We were 100 miles or more from combat, still heading for RZ with the bombers and not yet even ready for combat. Stampf could have taken off from the airfield and catch up with us before any combat encounter would be likely, although not at the same altitude. It would have had no negative impact on the frame and gameplay overall, but to Stampf the evening was destroyed. Not ruined even, just gone as in taken away.
So to prevent this very negative experience to happen, to anyone, in the future. I recommend some better tools be implemented to be able to discern units in combat from those far from combat and that better routines be put in place. As well as the AI plane reconnect functionality be looked into for it doesn't seem to be working as intended.
I'm not here to hang anyone, and if you perceive the original post as accusations well, you either plain don't see the reasons behind that or don't want to admit that these are justified questions. I don't have all the data, I wish I did in this case and that's what I'm trying to obtain from those who have the missing pieces. That's what I'm asking for, and the end goal is a better experience for all involved not just for Stampf, me or JG11. So if you take a position against me you're not really helping yourself either.
Let's see things for what they are here in a constructive way and not let egos prevent something that could be a very positive outcome for all future FSOs.
:salute
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Lucky pup--that won't be happening much longer, once the honeymoon is over he'll be back to handling his joystick all by himself. All kidding aside--congrats to the newly weds! :cheers:
I can confirm husker crashed. Husker is a newlywed, and from what Nightmares understands Huskers bride gained control of his 'joystick' and thus he departed from controlled flight.
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The timeline above make me doubt if correct procedure was followed. I have no experience of reconnecting back to a AI plane, but if the player is not able to get back up into the AI plane must he then wait for the AI plane to disappear before upping from a field? If so, then that would have prevented Stampf in this case to even hava a chance to re-up. If he was back in the arena within 2 minutes but the re-connect to the plane failed he would have been forced to wait 3 more minutes and by that time combat was joined.
Do you have any basis for not being able to reup with AI's in the air? I've never seen it not allow a disco to reup when it didn't put them back in the AI unless fields were closed, which is the only time I've seen the disco code not work.
I see no reason to ground him for that still, because he was in that example back before combat was joined but unable to up so it would be unfair to be grounded for that reason. At those times it's important to remember why we are here, and not be anal about the rules just because you think that's your job. In this example it would be a judgement call and I personally would not rob a person of his FSO because of unfortunate circumstances. I think that's stupid.
Meant constructively, as soon as you add in judgement calls, you add in 'He was allowed in under these circumstances but I wasn't!' style conflict. There's something to be said for having a clear line that things fall either on one side or the other of. It sucks to disco right at the cutoff, I've had it happen to me too, but there has to be a clear delineation.
Otherwise you start entering into the realm of questions such as 'how far away is far enough from combat?' and a legion of others.
No disrespect intended, it just seems to me a rather large can of worms to open considering some of the relatively small things people will argue over in here.
Wiley.
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Considering that pilots upped after combat started, it's already an issue.
When do we call it? Do they have to up before combat starts? Do they simply have to ask before combat starts?
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Considering that pilots upped after combat started, it's already an issue.
What am I missing? The only time I've seen quoted for combat having been joined was semp's 22:26:30. I haven't seen any posts showing people upping after that time.
Wiley.
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-E_KSlkfJEvY/T9pxxdAvg2I/AAAAAAAADKI/ukA3IQIcsho/s320/345fbdd4_Stephen-Colbert-Popcorn.gif) Let's enjoy the show :rofl
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You're a little late for the show I believe this topic is dead.
The FSO CMs are silent and I have no interest in entertaining a flamefest, that is very distant from what I had intended. Without meaningful communication in this thread I'm done here. I hope there will be some feedback given eventually and I am patiently waiting for that. Whatever HTC had in mind with the FSO activities I do not believe booting players not breaking any rules was ever part of what they had in mind. For in the end it will make people leave the game and community. FSO is a very successful part of AH. Some people play AH solely because of FSO or historical scenarios and that's essentially what is keeping me here. If HTC want the FSO community to grow (it does draw a farily big regular crowd) they should support it by providing the tools for smooth scenario operations. This is not to put anyone down, it should be regarded as feedback from a customer. The other issue I aired is of lesser importance at least to me, because I don't pay much attention to the personalities or "social hierarchy" of the community, at all.
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This might be a newb question, but the time you up, is that from when you spawn, or when you start engine, when wheels move, or when you're airborne? (the time shown in the logs I mean)
This might explain why some of the Allies "upped" after fields close, they may have spawned and waited on runway, engines off.
I'm only guessing, and not on either side of the argument, anyone know?
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"Upping" means spawning. I believe the game will list any player in a vehicle, on ground or in air, as "in flight" irrespective of whether the player is actually flying or not.
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"Upping" means spawning. I believe the game will list any player in a vehicle, on ground or in air, as "in flight" irrespective of whether the player is actually flying or not.
your squadie missed the time by seconds or minutes, depending on how long it took for him to relog and asked to be let in. it's already been posted before and has been established that the rules were followed.
Instead of accusing, you could have been asking that in the future perhaps the time to rejoin due to disco's should be changed and propose a change. you could have generated more goodwill than just outright accusing people and demand that they be reprimanded..
semp
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your squadie missed the time by seconds or minutes, depending on how long it took for him to relog and asked to be let in. it's already been posted before and has been established that the rules were followed.
Instead of accusing, you could have been asking that in the future perhaps the time to rejoin due to disco's should be changed and propose a change. you could have generated more goodwill than just outright accusing people and demand that they be reprimanded..
semp
Maybe so, I did not have all the information, still don't. And I'm not a person to hold the hands of people who are easily offended.
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Maybe so, I did not have all the information, still don't. And I'm not a person to hold the hands of people who are easily offended.
That's an excuse for not having tact or deliberately trying to come across as abrasive. It was a situation that occurred (past tense) in a video game. You had the luxury of time to craft a message (public or private) that didn't come off as a hissy fit.
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Judging others do not define them, it defines you. I can not answer for how you choose to interpret what I write, for after all it can and will be interpreted differently than what I intend according to who is reading. Unless I had the time to write a book to eliminate mis-interpretation, I did not have that luxury.
Any person with negative / hostile intentions can and will read your post mis-interpreting it. Which is why being nice is that much more important on a bbs, to get along, or people will jump you much like you do. Maybe I am getting old but I did not have the patience to be nice nor do I care for people who are clueless.
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Judging others do not define them, it defines you. I can not answer for how you choose to interpret what I write, for after all it can and will be interpreted differently than what I intend according to who is reading. Unless I had the time to write a book to eliminate mis-interpretation, I did not have that luxury.
Any person with negative / hostile intentions can and will read your post mis-interpreting it. Which is why being nice is that much more important on a bbs, to get along, or people will jump you much like you do. Maybe I am getting old but I did not have the patience to be nice nor do I care for people who are clueless.
Why do you need to write a book to ask about the reconnection rules? Ooo... I know! You had already made up your mind that this was some sort of Killuminati conspiracy to keep your squad down. You wanted to rant and rave, so you did. The only thing your OP was missing was a youtube video of you marching circles of protest in your kitchen.
The only negative opinion I have of you is this thread. Before now, I had never even heard of you. You don't have to fake being nice to anyone here. All you have to do is not type like you're about to light yourself on fire. Please don't blame this on you being 'old', either. Plenty of old people know how to type concise questions without going off the deep end. Plenty of old people have the patience to type a paragraph describing an internet disconnection without demanding answers immediately.
The only one acting clueless about this is you.
P.S. - In the 5 minutes it took me to write this (thank God for patience), there were several things I almost typed out but omitted. If I can do it, you can too.
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Maybe so, I did not have all the information, still don't. And I'm not a person to hold the hands of people who are easily offended.
considering how easily you got upset over something that didn't happen to you.
semp
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I think a t+30 disco role should implemented. If a person dies before then, they are done. However, if they disco they should be allowed to take off.
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Well thanks for proving my point.
Most people listen not with the intent to understand, only to reply. For their own ends and purposes. Most are also too ignorant to know the difference.
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I think a t+30 disco role should implemented. If a person dies before then, they are done. However, if they disco they should be allowed to take off.
What I think would be best is if the disco reconnect in flight feature would work when fields are closed. As I understand it works now, once fields are closed, disco reconnects don't work. If they did, it wouldn't matter when it happened, you'd still have a chance to get back into your plane unless something bad happened to it. I think that's about as reasonable as it can get. No time limits, doesn't reward people for plug pulling, no downside I can see.
Wiley.
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They worked last FSO. But I didnt disco I had a CTD and was able to get back in.
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Triton28's last post, +1. :aok
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I think a t+30 disco role should implemented. If a person dies before then, they are done. However, if they disco they should be allowed to take off.
Before = after? Just attempting to clarify. :salute :cheers:
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Before = after? Just attempting to clarify. :salute :cheers:
"Dies" as in shot down or crashed before T+30 re-up cutoff, your one life is over. If you disco before T+30, fields are open for instant re-up. Pretty much the way it is now but fields aren't locked until T+30.
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Thank goodness airplanes never had mechanical failures when heading into combat resulting in a reduction of force put into the mission.
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Thank goodness airplanes never had mechanical failures when heading into combat resulting in a reduction of force put into the mission.
Golfer....how dare you come up with a responsible reply! :aok
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Thank goodness airplanes never had mechanical failures when heading into combat resulting in a reduction of force put into the mission.
This is the view I've always had on this issue and it makes perfect sense. However in the context of this environment we have here of real people playing this simulation in a virtual environment I don't think it's right either to prevent people from participating in the main activity that is fun for them and that keep them in the game paying their monthly fee.
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Having said that, I was fairly upset when posting this and of course that reflects in the post. While I am of the opinion that any mature person would try to erase the upset tone of the post to try to get to what I'm actually saying, the message of the post. It is also obvious that it will be very natural for some to jump on the controversy it creates and do their best to inflate it. That was not what I wanted, although obviously it is bound to happen because of my post so I apologize for that to the CM team. I think those of you able to recognize what my intention was with this already know it, while those who still don't probably never will. So I'll leave it there, no further explanation needed.
:salute
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I think the disco rule should be left intact the way it is. so far its seems to work. and as a matter of fact, it happened to me one night, and I could not reup because combat had been called. I just stayed in the tower and supported my guys as best I could. I joined up with them as a passenger and was the eyes for them. yes it sucked. but sometimes you get handed a lemon, I choose to make lemonade. <S>
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It's happened to me several times in the past, it sucks but it happens. Still, there are ways we can make events better managed. It would require some coding done but nothing extaordinary. However from reading this thread there seems to be no desire from the community to make things better. That attitude, I do not understand.
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"Dies" as in shot down or crashed before T+30 re-up cutoff, your one life is over.
If you disco before T+30, fields are open for instant re-up. Pretty much the way it
is now but fields aren't locked until T+30.
So it's a contest of the 'once combat is joined' part of the rule? IIRC, this has been
an understood and accepted part of whether a disconnected player can be given
permission to re-up and participate for some time now. If reconnection with your
plane airborne fails then the original rule comes into play. As such, occasionally chaos
will ensue.
I've seen the description of the specific events that came to pass and although I can
appreciate the frustration of the player denied I'm not seeing a sufficient case presented
to force a rule re-write of this nature.
What, specifically, causes the need to eliminate that part of the rule? In a way, it
represents a pilot disappearing prior to combat engagement only to re-up a 'new'
plane during or after that engagement (no matter how accidentally) and becoming
a reserve asset (even with the original plane loss in a non-combat situation) that
wouldn't have otherwise existed. That player/pilot usually becomes a 'rogue' in such
a situation, anyhow. He would get to play ... but would no longer be part of the
cohesive unit. While this may also be an eventual result later in the frame for the
other pilots who didn't disco , being such from the outset changes the chemistry
too soon (and may even be done intentionally, which is probably the nature of the
rule being written the way it is). Requesting coding is even more of an unnecessary
'fix.' It wouldn't 'make things better' and is a waste of time and resource.
The 'may not re-up after combat is engaged' part of the rule is at least a compromise
over 'discos represent that random mechanical situation that would have cost a plane,
period' with further BOTD that though it may cost a plane due to a situation that didn't
involve engagement with the enemy, that pilot wasn't captured and made it back behind
his own lines.' That would represent a change in the other direction that would be more
reasonable than what is being suggested, IMO. It would not allow for any possibility
of intentional disconnection to split one or more planes from the main body to
change the scope of battle (even if such a plan has inherent flaws).
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to be the one left out of the frame due to a
combination of technical difficulty and seconds to reslove (especially if I was prepared,
on time and excited) either.
:salute