Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: lengro on August 18, 2013, 09:46:25 AM
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A local airshow an hour ago, pilot should be okay:
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee35/lengro/Ubehandlet_webpix_960504m1.jpg) (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/lengro/media/Ubehandlet_webpix_960504m1.jpg.html)
(not my photo)
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Wow that is not good :airplane: :furious
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Wow that is not good :airplane: :furious
On the scale of "109 down" outcomes that looks about as good as it gets. The pilot is ok and the Bf109 looks like it is pretty ok as well considering.
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"Red 7" again. That'll be the third time for this bird. It must be cursed. Looks like a wheels-up landing. Last time the landing gear wouldn't extend; looks like it might be the same issue this time.
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Here she is after the first crash. Pilot error. Landed with one wing and one wheel hitting the ground. Ripped the gear off.
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/71/bf109g4crash003jm5.jpg)
The second: Gear wouldn't extend. Looks pretty nice for a belly landing.
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aviation/61308d1299781055t-bf-109-red-7-down-again-11982837aa2.jpg)
But when she works she is beautiful!
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/red7.jpg)
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First eye witness reports indicates engine failure.
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glad the pilot's ok. that said, seeing that 109 like that makes me :cry :cry :cry
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At first, I wasn't willing to trust the first picture, it looked fake.
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Video from the site:
http://localeyes.dk/66848-2816-messerschmidt-fra-anden-verdenskrig-matte-nodlande-under-flyshow/
(starts with an ad - sigh!)
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Lucky for them there is another 109 for sale right now. Only $4,500,000 US
http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MESSERSCHMITT-ME-109/MESSERSCHMITT-ME-109/1286839.htm
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Wow Len, did you walk out to see her?
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Looks like a bug. HT fix please :old:
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Looks like a bug. HT fix please :old:
Third crash so obviously a programming bias ;)
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Wow Len, did you walk out to see her?
No, not very accessible area, and roads congested due to the airshow - so we have to estimate the auger score based on others photos :D
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee35/lengro/109-2.jpg) (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/lengro/media/109-2.jpg.html)
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:rofl
not much more than a 4/10 by the look of it
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Have to give the pilot props for a well executed emergency landing in an airplane that has ZERO forgiveness in it for mistakes and surprises during these types of events.
You know, every time I see or think of this particular 109, I think about how many were lost in accidents and crashes during its service life, and how tricky it was to operate. It's just one of those things in life that is quirky I guess. I'm happy it looks very repairable, as there is so few of them left.
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Truly a shame but as mentioned, it could have been much much worse.
video: http://youtu.be/sTs7G9teJ-M (http://youtu.be/sTs7G9teJ-M)
As can be seen there isn't much time to figure out where to put it when power is lost at low altitude as the speed wasn't that high either. Very impressive bit of flying!
Yeh, Red 7 has had more than its share of mishaps for sure...
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Were there any Spitfires at the airshow? Looks awfully suspicious to me.
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Have to give the pilot props for a well executed emergency landing in an airplane that has ZERO forgiveness in it for mistakes and surprises during these types of events.
You know, every time I see or think of this particular 109, I think about how many were lost in accidents and crashes during its service life, and how tricky it was to operate.
The 30% loss to landing accidents is a persistent myth that refuses to die. The 109 was easy to operate and very forgiving in the air. It was on the ground it was tricky because of the landing gear, but not more so than other aircraft with narrow landing gear. The Germans lost about 5% in landing accidents which is the same percentage as for the Fw190. In this case the landing gear wasn't even a factor.
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I recall reading that the Germans found the Spitfire more forgiving on the ground than the Bf109.
As far as landing goes, yeah, that makes sense. 30% is unsustainable.
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Truly a shame but as mentioned, it could have been much much worse.
video: http://youtu.be/sTs7G9teJ-M (http://youtu.be/sTs7G9teJ-M)
As can be seen there isn't much time to figure out where to put it when power is lost at low altitude as the speed wasn't that high either. Very impressive bit of flying!
Yeh, Red 7 has had more than its share of mishaps for sure...
Sounds like a Merlin from a Hispano Aviación HA-1112
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I've never believed that 30 percent nonsense either, no air force could even have an air force with that rate of accidents just regarding landing quirkyness.
Still, they did lose a fair number, and it was known to be a trickier than average plane with the narrow undercarriage set up. I'll never argue how well it performed in the air, and how it was scalable right to the end of the war, and was never absolutely outclassed. I remember when Galland spoke in Canada at an RCAF thing, and he said that he would take the 109 still even if he could choose any prop aircraft he wanted during the war, mainly due to the acceleration and other factors.
Great video, yes that pilot didn't have much altitude in order to find some place safe. Luckily there were a lot of fields around for him to pick from.
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Good that the pilot survived. Bad that the plane did too.
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Bad that the plane did too.
That's just messed up. You must be some a silly young punk that doesn't realize that something like that 109 is a piece of living history. Now go choke your chicken and stfu.
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That's just messed up. You must be some a silly young punk that doesn't realize that something like that 109 is a piece of living history. Now go joke your chicken and stfu.
Sounds like your undies are in a twist.
With that 109 being a flying death trap and having 3 previous crashes, it'd be safer for it to be stuck in the dirt than in the sky.
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Sounds like your undies are in a twist.
With that 109 being a flying death trap and having 3 previous crashes, it'd be safer for it to be stuck in the dirt than in the sky.
An expert has given an opinion. Case closed, scrap her!
Plane looks like it will back in the air in no time. Pilot ok, plane made a nice ditch, good ending to bad situation.
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It all depends on the damage to the single most important part on that plane: The original DB 605 engine. Parts for that motor are very rare and difficult to make due to the tight tolerances. When the RAF museum guys took the engine of "Black 6" to Rolls Royce to get refurbished, the RR guys sad "and for Christ's sake don't damage the crankshaft. We couldn't make a new one..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=y8TOi0GUz1o&t=1157
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It all depends on the damage to the single most important part on that plane: The original DB 605 engine.
Yep, that's why they use wooden props on many warbirds today (Black 6 had one too) so that in the case of a prop strike there would be as little strain to the engine as possible. Also the prop hitting soft ground instead of tarmac should help too. There's no info yet on what caused the engine to lose power, the engine could be very badly damaged even without any prop strike damage...
I'm quite confident that they have the means to put the plane back to the air but would totally understand if they decide to ground it.
Another pic:
(http://multimedia.ekstrabladet.dk/archive/00960/Ubehandlet_webpix_960509m.jpg)
http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/article2069885.ece (http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/article2069885.ece)
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From that picture it almost looks like they only need to jack it up to get the gear out and give it a fresh coat of paint on the underside. Ground looks very soft.
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Here she is on one of her better days. Also in formation with two of her adversaries:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCRnQTsAPw4
Love that all blue-gray paint job.
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No, not very accessible area, and roads congested due to the airshow - so we have to estimate the auger score based on others photos :D
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee35/lengro/109-2.jpg) (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/lengro/media/109-2.jpg.html)
:O awesome pic
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No, not very accessible area, and roads congested due to the airshow - so we have to estimate the auger score based on others photos :D
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee35/lengro/109-2.jpg) (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/lengro/media/109-2.jpg.html)
pilot had 3 kills, too, and only got a ditch because he just missed the pavement.
:noid
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Good that the pilot survived. Bad that the plane did too.
With that 109 being a flying death trap and having 3 previous crashes, it'd be safer for it to be stuck in the dirt than in the sky.
We understand you're an idiot, you don't need to remind us with each of your posts.
ack-ack
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We understand you're an idiot, you don't need to remind us with each of your posts.
ack-ack
That was a pretty bad excuse for an insult.
3/10.
Try harder next time.
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Don't mind the trolls.
Petty on such a beauty, even more sad that there are NO FW190D models flying. Yellow 10 which is airworthy but not flying because of the above mentioned maintenance and manufacturing issues, and the associated risk with taking the only airworthy Dora up.
Awesome piloting getting that 109 down in one piece.
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There is a Fw190F-8 that should be flying in the not so distant future. This is the White One a/c which has been recently sold to the Collings Foundation.
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We understand you're an idiot, you don't need to remind us with each of your posts.
ack-ack
+1
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Nice video Gsholz. That motorcanon barrel sure is large when you look at it head on. I wonder how many Soviet pilots looked back or in their mirror, and the last thing they saw was it belching fire and smoke.
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We understand you're an idiot, you don't need to remind us with each of your posts.
ack-ack
Gonna have to agree with ack-ack here.... kid is really bringing the stupid lately. He needs to stop, really, before he makes himself look even dumber....... oh wait..... nevermind.
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As mentioned, this was the plane's third bigger mishap during its life as Rote 7. It has had crashes before that in its previous life as well:
The Messerschmitt Stiftung's "Rote Sieben" (Red Seven) was built as a Hispano (CASA) license built Bf-109, the Hispano HA-1112 M-1L Buchón in 1950 with c/n 139. After delivery she first served with the Ejercito del Aire with serial C.4K-75.
After being stuck of charge she was stored on Tablada before being sold to the United Kingdom in 1968, registered as G-AWHH. She starred as a Bf-109E "yellow 11" and "red 14" in the famous movie "The Battle of Britain". For another role in a movie she was reconverted into a P-51 "Mustang". Therefore a fake belly-cooler was attached. But she unfortunately crashed during a take-off and was severely damaged.
After her accident she was sold to the USA being registered as N3109G and restored to flying condtion. She was flown for the first and last time from Casper, Wyoming in 1986 as she crashed on take-off. After she was "repaired" to represent an Bf-109E-4 in static condition and in open storage. She was in a terrible state when she arrived in Augsburg, Germany in the 1990s where a couple of enthusiasts had the ambitious plan to restore her to Bf-109G-4 "Gustav" specifications, including the Daimler-Benz DB605 engine. Her first owner gave up on the plan fairly soon an in 1998 she was moved to the Messerschmitt Air Company (MAC) at Albstadt-Degerfeld. There she would undergo an expensive and time consuming restoration, that took over 30.000 hours. The work was completed in 2004 and on October 8 of that year she was presented to the public; the Rote Sieben had come to life!
On July 15, 2005 disaster struck as she was involved in a crash landing. While she touched down at her home, Albstadt-Degerfeld, the main gear collapsed resulting in a violent ground spin. The engine broke of the fuselage and the fighter was heavily damaged. At that point it wasn't clear if she would ever take the skies again. While being repaired the MAC was having difficulties to raise the funds to finalize the needed work and in December 2007 she was adopted by the Manching based Messerschmitt Stiftung. On April 2, 2008 she made, with Walter Eichhorn as her pilot, her first 15 minute test flight.
But then on April 15, 2008, just two weeks after her first flight, disaster struck again. While on approach to Manching, the pilot, Walter Eichhorn, found out that the right main gear of the 109 wasn't locked. After several attempts he found himself forced to make a wheels-up landing. The "Rote Sieben" was damaged, but thanks to the superb landing of Eichhorn the damage was kept to a minimum. After the previous accident in 2005, this mend that yet another round of repairs where necessary. After the repairs were made the "Rote Sieben" made her first flight on February 19, 2009 with Walter Eichhorn as pilot.
(Source: http://www.touchdown-aviation.com/flying-legends/plane/messerschmitt-stiftung/messerschmitt-bf-109g-4-d-fwme.php (http://www.touchdown-aviation.com/flying-legends/plane/messerschmitt-stiftung/messerschmitt-bf-109g-4-d-fwme.php))
(http://video4news.tv/media/WMS/ledk3/412114-158.jpg)
Pics and video of the recovery from the field: http://localeyes.dk/66849-2816-forulykkede-messerschmitt-fly-bliver-fjernet/ (http://localeyes.dk/66849-2816-forulykkede-messerschmitt-fly-bliver-fjernet/)
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Nice video Gsholz. That motorcanon barrel sure is large when you look at it head on. I wonder how many Soviet pilots looked back or in their mirror, and the last thing they saw was it belching fire and smoke.
A lot. The Luftwaffe claimed about 40,000 soviet aircraft destroyed in air combat. Bud Anderson had such a "moment" too, but survived.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k85-HYbvfNE
Ignore the silly narrator and animation, just listen to Anderson.
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humm wood prop. Might be a game idea in that picture
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Wartime 109G had metal prop.
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"I recall reading that the Germans found the Spitfire more forgiving on the ground than the Bf109."
That is probably because the landing gear has softer suspension in Spitty due to being designed on rougher grass airfields. Spit is also prone for pirouetting upon landing due to narrow gear but it is not fatal as in 109 as Spitty is not likely to turn over when it happens.
Finnish 109 pilots said that in their opinion German pilots generally landed with much greater speeds than necessary and that especially when landing on concrete airstrips where the 109 was dangerous if the landing speed was too high. If the plane started veering and bouncing on concrete it meant a disaster a second away.
As the landing gear leg attachment point is rather weak the suspension is made relatively stiff probably not to allow sideways loading and thus the aircraft likes to rise on the other landing gear if it starts veering, only making things worse. If the suspension was looser it would more likely cause the attachment to break off earlier but it would also prevent the aircraft from turning over and more possibly killing or injuring the pilot.
-C+
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Spitfire was also prone to ground-looping, and it often killed its pilots in such incidents. The early 109s up to and including the E model would almost certainly kill the pilot in a ground-loop, that's why they designed a stronger canopy for the F/G series onward that helped somewhat. It's the reason for the often lamented heavy framing of later 109 canopies.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/spitfire_crash1.jpg)
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That is probably because the landing gear has softer suspension in Spitty due to being designed on rougher grass airfields. Spit is also prone for pirouetting upon landing due to narrow gear but it is not fatal as in 109 as Spitty is not likely to turn over when it happens.
"Taxiing is the Messerchmitt’s opportunity to get you alone and to whisper a warning in your ear."
My favorite write-up on flying the 109. According to this guy the Spit has its own problems, but not like the 109's ("The Spitfire’s undercarriage is just as narrow, and it doesn’t have any of the Bf-109’s quirks. It has its own quirks – but that’s another story").
AAR here:
http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/124/language/en-CA/Bouncing-Clouds--Flying-the-Messerschmitt-Bf-109.aspx
- oldman
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The track of the Spitfire was narrower by 6".
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http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/124/language/en-CA/Bouncing-Clouds--Flying-the-Messerschmitt-Bf-109.aspx- oldman
why do they always say the Emil had an engine mounted MgFF
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So you live ten minutes from the scene. Did you get a prox kill???
Joking aside, sad to see it in the dirt although it is rather reminiscent of wartime photos. I did note the wooden propellor. Is it true that they only used metal props? Spitfires were often fitted with wooden propellors in fact a composite using wood. They were lighter and as pointed out saved the engine in an accident. Aircraft modellers often miss this fact and only recently I saw a magazine build of a Spit IX where the modeller went to a lot of trouble to add metallic wear and tear to the propeller little realising it was in fact made of wood. Not only that he had all the chips on the front of the prop where as in fact most wear to a propeller is at the back of the blade and near the tip. :D
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why do they always say the Emil had an engine mounted MgFF
Maybe because they thought the E-2 was a production variant and didn't know the trials with the 20mm firing through the spinner was unsuccessful and canceled.
ack-ack
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So you live ten minutes from the scene. Did you get a prox kill???
Joking aside, sad to see it in the dirt although it is rather reminiscent of wartime photos. I did note the wooden propellor. Is it true that they only used metal props?
Yes, all production 109s used metal propellers from VDM. Bf 109E used VDM 9-11081A ohne Automatik, and later VDM 9-11081E mit Automatik. F-1 and F-2 used VDM 9-11207. F-4 used VDM 9-12010. G used VDM 9-12159A (DB 605A(M)) or VDM 9-12087A (DB 605AS(M)). K Used VDM 9-12159A.
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Lucky for them there is another 109 for sale right now. Only $4,500,000 US
http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MESSERSCHMITT-ME-109/MESSERSCHMITT-ME-109/1286839.htm
Condition -Used
:lol
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20 minutes with my buffer and some windex, I can have her looking brandnew.
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Maybe because they thought the E-2 was a production variant and didn't know the trials with the 20mm firing through the spinner was unsuccessful and canceled.
ack-ack
i even have a '76 doco that shows Bader and Tuck saying the Emil had a engine 20mm.
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This video is showing the forced landing from another angle: http://youtu.be/Dx8U3nDRPUs (http://youtu.be/Dx8U3nDRPUs)
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I was thinkin he tried to skid the landing to hurry up and land his kills... :rofl
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This video is showing the forced landing from another angle: http://youtu.be/Dx8U3nDRPUs (http://youtu.be/Dx8U3nDRPUs)
He was inverted a long time wonder if he starved engine for oil?
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brave man to save the plane
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latrobes fault, and I don't have to pay the insurance... YES!
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LATROOOOOBBBBBBEEEEEEEE! :mad: :cry
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He was inverted a long time wonder if he starved engine for oil?
well the engine is upside down to begin with...
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I've angered way better than that
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brave man to save the plane
Like any good pilot he was saving himself, a byproduct of which is usually best for the aircraft as well.
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This video is showing the forced landing from another angle: http://youtu.be/Dx8U3nDRPUs (http://youtu.be/Dx8U3nDRPUs)
Great skills to keep that plane from wing stalling and flopping.
Soil and the vegetation definitely was a key to that plane remaining repairable.
And thank goodness for no fire.
:cheers: Oz.
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well the engine is upside down to begin with...
More importantly the DB605 had a dry sump oil system, but still only a few seconds of negative G flight could be made without starving the engine of oil.
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well the engine is upside down to begin with...
duh big red truck!
More importantly the DB605 had a dry sump oil system, but still only a few seconds of negative G flight could be made without starving the engine of oil.
Yes, thats what i was saying.. in the video he was inverted around 8 secs.
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...and it's been back in the air for a while now! :aok
http://www.flugmuseum-messerschmitt.com/Feature-Area/Me109_IS_BACK/index.html (http://www.flugmuseum-messerschmitt.com/Feature-Area/Me109_IS_BACK/index.html)
Very cool, certainly nice to see that ADS is serious about keeping these aircraft in the air.
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Damn that's a sexy beast
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It must have 9 lives..... 6 more left. :bolt:
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It will be rebuilt. Good job on the ditching... He won't get his name in lights though. Ha.
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:aok :aok :aok :aok :banana: :banana: