Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: hlbly on October 20, 2013, 10:44:53 PM

Title: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 20, 2013, 10:44:53 PM
 Would love to see the stall modeled a bit better .Here is a link to a pony in a 1g stall. Notice buffet.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 20, 2013, 11:40:20 PM
We used to have haptic feedback for the stall. I don't have a link but I saw a Steve Hinton video where he describes the P-51 stall being preceded by a vibration you could feel in the stick. We used to have that in Aces High. A player named hlbly convinced Pyro we shouldn't have it and it was removed from the FFB.

Good luck with your wish.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: 715 on October 21, 2013, 01:18:14 AM
I'm confused.  AH still has stall buffet FFB.  My stick vibrates on stalling.  What am I missing?
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 21, 2013, 01:23:51 AM
There used to be a mild vibration concurrent with the stall horn. You could turn the horn down and still feel it in the stick.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: nrshida on October 21, 2013, 02:45:39 AM
I am also grateful to hlbly because the vibration was in the wrong place before and now it's in the right place.

I remember him campaigning for this for a long time, presenting evidence and meeting consistent criticism and resistance from one opinionated trainer who was wrong, was shown to be wrong, and who I have observed to be wrong since at least one third of the time. Still, that combination of arrogance and ignorance is a doozy.

+1 for richer haptics in AH.


Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 21, 2013, 07:46:35 AM
FLS will you just let it go. The stick vibrating to the stall horn made it harder to feel the edge of the envelope. Buffet is when you should feel the stick buffet. Stall should produce a lessening of return to center . Watch the video . See the slight tremble at the onset of buffet ? See it increase in frequency and duration as video progresses. A major bug was fixed. A design error was corrected . It is better but with some work it could be vastly improved.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 21, 2013, 07:49:06 AM
I'm confused.  AH still has stall buffet FFB.  My stick vibrates on stalling.  What am I missing?
715 it could be vastly better if they would have it be subtle at it's onset . Becoming more violent as the buffet increases. Would make for more immersed play. The way it is now it is either on or off. No shades of gray.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 21, 2013, 10:10:27 AM
FLS will you just let it go. The stick vibrating to the stall horn made it harder to feel the edge of the envelope. Buffet is when you should feel the stick buffet. Stall should produce a lessening of return to center . Watch the video . See the slight tremble at the onset of buffet ? See it increase in frequency and duration as video progresses. A major bug was fixed. A design error was corrected . It is better but with some work it could be vastly improved.

It wasn't a bug. It was a useful feature. According to Steve Hinton it was exactly what happens in a P-51.

I'll watch the video when you post the link.  :lol



Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: nrshida on October 22, 2013, 01:14:53 AM
It wasn't a bug. It was a useful feature.

Still butt-hurt after a year or more. You just liked it where it was because you like to ride the stall horn and not the buffet and now you can't. But by all means lets have the whole feature revolve around the way YOU like it, even if it was incorrect.

If you weren't so intent on trying to assert your 'superiority' over hlbly then you might get with the programme to wish for richer feedback from HTC and then players could tailor it to their own preferences.

Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: JunkyII on October 22, 2013, 03:03:58 AM
+1 :bolt:
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 24, 2013, 03:24:00 PM
It was wrong and counter productive. When you need the most finite amount of control the stick was bucking in your hand. When stall was on and buffet off you had buffet. when stall was off and buffet on nothing. By definition a bug end of story. Why don't you quit fighting with me and work together. You do not know what you are missing.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 24, 2013, 04:03:48 PM
It was wrong and counter productive. When you need the most finite amount of control the stick was bucking in your hand. When stall was on and buffet off you had buffet. when stall was off and buffet on nothing. By definition a bug end of story. Why don't you quit fighting with me and work together. You do not know what you are missing.

You are confused. The vibration was before the buffet. Your claim at the time was that the vibration was unrealistic.

Still waiting for the link to the video you mentioned.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 24, 2013, 05:39:10 PM
  If I was suspicious I would say you removed it . I can't find it. Here is one where the pilot is talking about slight vibration then airframe buffet. Perfect explanation of what I and others would like to see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK0AGh37rpg


Here is a better one showing the difference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoUF2MfDSiI Start at 5:00 minutes . Watch ,listen ,learn. Then if you persist, argue with your own senses. Really FLS do you think you hurt or help ffb in game with your attitude? It reminds me of three year olds playing and no one wants to play one kids game.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 24, 2013, 06:00:16 PM
 If I was suspicious I would say you removed it . I can't find it. Here is one where the pilot is talking about slight vibration then airframe buffet. Perfect explanation of what I and others would like to see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK0AGh37rpg


Here is a better one showing the difference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoUF2MfDSiI Start at 5:00 minutes . Watch ,listen ,learn. Then if you persist, argue with your own senses. Really FLS do you think you hurt or help ffb in game with your attitude? It reminds me of three year olds playing and no one wants to play one kids game.

I think I was pretty helpful a couple of weeks ago when I explained to you that we do have accelerated stalls in AH and also explained what an accelerated stall is.

The slight vibration prior to the buffet is what we had. You are asking for the feature that you convinced Pyro to remove to be returned. You are arguing that I'm against the feature that I wanted to keep. I don't see how you could possibly be more wrong than you are.

I'm not surprised that you would think that I could potentially remove a video when I don't know what it's called or where it's posted.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 25, 2013, 11:36:08 AM
You did not watch...the whole plane buffeted. I did not convince anyone. Can't remember the name of the guy that did convince them . It was not me.  Anyway this is last response I will make to you. I was right when i first posted about it. I am right now. FFB model could be improved and it would most likely not take much to do it. It just has to quit being looked on as a gimmick. It is all about the advantages we spend our money on. some guys go for big monitors to see easy others the fast PC so they don't have frame rate drops. I chose ffb. i would like to get my bang for my buck. what I am proposing will better the game not harm it. I would love to see them model trim to. that one I am not sure how they would be able to do it.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 25, 2013, 03:15:34 PM
Trim force is already modeled.  That's why there is a setting for it in the game. Some sims model the trimmed stick position but don't model the trim force. AH models it so you can feel the stick resistance ease as you trim the forces off the stick, just like a real aircraft. If you can't feel that then it's likely that you are using a Logitech G940 with their last firmware update. The update not only porked the trim forces in AH they seem to have made it harder to feel the subtle beginning of the stall buffet. This is because Logitech tightened the feel of the stick near the center position as a pseudo fix for the reversal bug. The reversal bug is a design flaw and it can only be eliminated by putting the X and Y axis on a separate circuit board. If you have a G940 with the original firmware and the X and Y axis connected to a separate circuit board then you have an awesome stick that will showcase the AH FFB, minus the pre-stall vibration. There is nothing HTC can do to make up for the design flaws in the G940. Everything you're asking for is already modeled, except the bit you convinced them to remove.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Puma44 on October 26, 2013, 11:45:08 AM
We used to have haptic feedback for the stall. I don't have a link but I saw a Steve Hinton video where he describes the P-51 stall being preceded by a vibration you could feel in the stick. We used to have that in Aces High. A player named hlbly convinced Pyro we shouldn't have it and it was removed from the FFB.

Good luck with your wish.
You are correct.  There is a vibration felt in the stick of the Mustang prior to the stall.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 26, 2013, 12:07:04 PM
You are correct.  There is a vibration felt in the stick of the Mustang prior to the stall.

What bugs me about that is that Hitech has flown mock dogfights in a P-51 and they still removed it. It may not be accurate for all our aircraft but like the stall horn itself, it helps make up for sitting on the ground as we fly.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: nrshida on October 26, 2013, 12:50:27 PM
It may not be accurate for all our aircraft

It isn't, hence hillbilly's campaigning for richer haptics, so people can configure it how it suits them (including you). Yet you take this as another opportunity to attack the man because you disagree and preferred it as it was before hillbilly's information. Well that and the fact he made you look like a horses' arse about a year ago.

Congratulations, another arrogantly motivated, meaningless and unnecessary argument and derailment of a Wishlist thread which does nothing to further the cause for everyone.


Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 26, 2013, 02:18:10 PM
FLS what I will never understand about you is this. You have never experienced it the way it should work. I can guarantee you this. If it was done right you would be able to fly the edge better than you ever have. I can almost promise that you would be more immersed than you ever have been as well. I can imagine your next post going on about how I can't possibly prove those statements . I can prove it to you. Just as I said I can prove there is a bug. Problem is you never even tried my test. Just insisted I did not know what I was talking about. Your entire position boils down to . I liked it better broken because it was good for me. You are the lone ranger in that position . Ever notice that ? No one ever agrees with you. Not one time since HTC decided to fix it has one person supported your viewpoint. All of the support for your position vanished as soon HTC changed their position on the subject. While I still have few people that support my position on it. You are now the lone voice in favor of it being wrong. My friend from a long time ago and someone that knows how it is supposed to work as well as I do sent me a PM once. It stated " I gave up on FFB in here a long time ago" trying to tell me I was in for a lot of frustration. He was right. I am almost as stubborn as you are though. Only difference is I need to be right to stick to my guns like you do.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 26, 2013, 03:48:54 PM
Don't be a silly hlbly.  If anyone reading this thinks you ignore everything I write and just make stuff up refer them to me.  :aok
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Puma44 on October 27, 2013, 11:08:49 AM
What bugs me about that is that Hitech has flown mock dogfights in a P-51 and they still removed it. It may not be accurate for all our aircraft but like the stall horn itself, it helps make up for sitting on the ground as we fly.
If anything, the in game Mustang seems a bit more sensitive and eager to do the "funky chicken" than the real thing.
In an accelerated stall there is also a unique low "buzz" sound accompanying the vibration that comes from the air flow around the wing root area.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 27, 2013, 11:58:37 AM
If anything, the in game Mustang seems a bit more sensitive and eager to do the "funky chicken" than the real thing.
In an accelerated stall there is also a unique low "buzz" sound accompanying the vibration that comes from the air flow around the wing root area.

I think our P-51 is more forgiving of pitch trim and snap rolls from what I've read. I'm not clear on what you mean by "funky chicken".
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Puma44 on October 27, 2013, 12:12:28 PM
The "funky chicken" is a common term used in military flying.  It is used to describe the uncontrolled maneuver that one can get into after an unintentional stall or other ham fisted maneuver typically occurring in a dog fight.  The result is a combination of wild, sometimes unrecognizable gyrations.  It can look somewhat like the "Lomcevak" maneuver seen in aerobatic demonstrations.   In game, some refer to it as a "flopping fish".  

The "funky chicken" is also used to describe the guns junk maneuver used when pulling off a bombing run or when an adversary is closing for guns in a dog fight.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Puma44 on October 27, 2013, 12:13:52 PM
I think our P-51 is more forgiving of pitch trim and snap rolls from what I've read. I'm not clear on what you mean by "funky chicken".
What do you mean by "more forgiving of pitch trim and snap rolls"?
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 27, 2013, 12:54:42 PM
What do you mean by "more forgiving of pitch trim and snap rolls"?

The real P-51 is sensitive to pitch and needs constant attention to pitch trim. The P-51 manual forbids snap rolls but in AH they are easy. You need to push into a negative G snap roll to get in any trouble.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Puma44 on October 27, 2013, 12:59:46 PM
The P-51 is sensitive to pitch and needs constant attention to pitch trim. The P-51 manual forbids snap rolls but in AH they are easy. You need to push into a negative G snap roll to get in any trouble.
Real world, the Mustang requires constant trim adjustment with every power, flight control, and configuration change.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: 715 on October 27, 2013, 02:03:31 PM
If real world airplanes require as much constant trimming as AH planes, then I'm glad I'm not rich and therefore cannot afford to fly real planes, because I would find that exceedingly annoying.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 27, 2013, 02:44:46 PM
Real world, the Mustang requires constant trim adjustment with every power, flight control, and configuration change.

Exactly my point.  :aok
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Puma44 on October 27, 2013, 10:23:58 PM
If real world airplanes require as much constant trimming as AH planes, then I'm glad I'm not rich and therefore cannot afford to fly real planes, because I would find that exceedingly annoying.
There's a vast difference between the fighters of WWII that required manual trimming and today's modern fighters that auto trim to match the pilot's input.  Trimming the Mustang real world is a minor issue compared to the fun and excitement of flying a piece of history. 
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 27, 2013, 11:26:19 PM
If real world airplanes require as much constant trimming as AH planes, then I'm glad I'm not rich and therefore cannot afford to fly real planes, because I would find that exceedingly annoying.

Trimming becomes automatic. That's modeled in AH with combat trim and the auto trim modes while retaining the option to manually trim if we wish.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: earl1937 on October 28, 2013, 05:35:16 PM
There's a vast difference between the fighters of WWII that required manual trimming and today's modern fighters that auto trim to match the pilot's input.  Trimming the Mustang real world is a minor issue compared to the fun and excitement of flying a piece of history. 
:airplane: Ever hear the expression, "Thumb the Ponie"? On cross country flights of 1 to 3 hours, after climbing out in the P-51K, I would set up cruise power, just a tad of nose up trim, place my right forearm on my right leg, place my right hand thumb on the back of the stick, with just a little bit of pressure, that way you don't drive your self crazy trimming all the time. Now that is in smooth air, not bumps from heat thermals or thunder storms around or wind shear. The ones I flew had a lot of air time and the engines were getting a high time inspection every 25 hours, as it was not unusual to fly one with the prop gov surging 10 to 25 RPM, then you had to constantly work at trimming the aircraft. To get the ponie on "step", you had to do the opposite, a slight nose down trim and holding a little tad of back pressure with your fingers to maintain the negative attitude that you wanted when on "step". On landing, in the 3 point stance, I could feel a slight buffet on the rudder pedals just prior to touch down. The flaps caused the buffet, because it wouldn't do it with a no flap landing. While the ponie is not a difficult aircraft to fly, you must remember that it is a high performance aircraft and should be treated as such. While practicing approach to landing stalls with gear down and full flaps, with, say, 8,000 feet as your runway height, then 10 foot prior to settling into the 8K mark, pretend a deer runs out on the runway and you have to go around! If you "jam" the throttle wide open, first thing that happens is your do a 1/2 snap to the left, and having to get the nose down to gain speed, even though you have raised the gear, you look at the altimeter and it says 7,200 feet, then you realize, you don't do anything rapidly in the ponie near the ground!
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Puma44 on October 28, 2013, 11:43:18 PM
Good stuff Earl!  :aok I've not heard about "thumb the pony" but, what you describe makes perfect sense.  The go around stall to torque roll to snap is oh so accurate from my experience also.  Lots O Pony's ended up in fields on their backs with their legs sticking up in the air from that scenario.

(http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/puma44/00bf6f4d7d245d1d193e69f6faed9b4c_zps8796b669.jpg)
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 29, 2013, 03:11:13 AM
Don't be a silly hlbly.  If anyone reading this thinks you ignore everything I write and just make stuff up refer them to me.  :aok
Got no idea what you are trying to say here. As I clearly stated you ignored my test to reproduce bug on FFB . Also to address one of your other statements . You are once again wrong. Entirely wrong. Trim is not modeled in here. When stall was removed so was trim since it did nothing. Man why participate in discussion when you do not keep current ? Puma I have a couple of questions for you I hope you will answer sir . As a pony goes slower does the stick become easier or more difficult to move ? What causes the initial subtle shaking of the stick ? Does the airframe vibrate ? Is it just vibration from one or more of the control surfaces ? Maybe Earl will answer ?
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Puma44 on October 29, 2013, 07:14:10 AM
Hlbly,  I've  got  answers  for  you  and  will  answer  later  today.   I'm  getting  ready  to board  and  fly  home  and  thus  fat  fingering  on  my  phone.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 29, 2013, 09:05:29 AM
Thanks Puma if you could I would really love an explanation of what trim feels like on the stick. I appreciate your time sir thank you.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Puma44 on October 29, 2013, 10:21:02 AM
Got no idea what you are trying to say here. As I clearly stated you ignored my test to reproduce bug on FFB . Also to address one of your other statements . You are once again wrong. Entirely wrong. Trim is not modeled in here. When stall was removed so was trim since it did nothing. Man why participate in discussion when you do not keep current ? Puma I have a couple of questions for you I hope you will answer sir . As a pony goes slower does the stick become easier or more difficult to move ? What causes the initial subtle shaking of the stick ? Does the airframe vibrate ? Is it just vibration from one or more of the control surfaces ? Maybe Earl will answer ?
1) As with most airplanes, the faster the airspeed, smaller control movement is required, and so as airspeed gets slower more control movement is required.  So, it can be looked as more stick movement vs difficult to move.

2) Your next three questions I'm assuming you are referring to a stall?  If so, without getting into complex aerodynamics, consider the example we were taught in USAF Pilot Training.  The approach to a stall was described as pebbles, rocks, and boulders to explain the progressively increasing separation and turbulence as the air flow across the top of the wing stopped producing lift.  As the approaching stall develops, there is a gentle vibration felt in the stick and rudder peddles from the airframe vibration an thus pebbles, rocks, and boulders as the stall is fully developed. I found the Mustang to be very solid and predictable after doing the usual array of stalls; clean, fully configured, and accelerated.  As the stall would develop, the Mustang would recover quickly when the angle of attack was reduced. Especially in accelerated stalls, it would recover immediately upon breaking the AOA.  My instructor also had me do cross controlled accelerated stalls.  In a hard right turn, with too much left rudder, the Mustang immediately snapped to the left and would gone into a fully developed "Mr Toad's Wild Ride" if the AOA wasn't immediately reduced. Once this was done, the Mustang was immediately flying and in full control.  Another interesting thing my instructor pointed out during the accelerated stalls and high G turns, is a very unique buzzing sound which he said was believed to be the airflow over the wing roots during these maneuvers.  Also during high airspeed, high G maneuvering at the burble (pre pebble), the burble would remain after reducing G load.  My instructor said that the burble or slightly disturbed airflow would remain on the wing until we "bunted" over to smooth the airflow out, and he was right.

So, is this what you were asking about or did I miss the intent of your question?  Ask away if I did.  :salute

Trim on the stick and the feel is akin to fine tuning your radio on a stereo channel, I.e. make it smooth. Trim is intended to reduce control forces to make the pilot's job easier.  For example, flying along at cruise power with the controls properly trimmed results in the pilot having a light grip on the controls.  When it's time to slow down and configure to land, the nose will get heavy because the aircraft is no longer trimmed for the flight condition. So, the pilot will have to apply nose up trim to reduce the control loading that results.  An adjustment in rudder trim to the left will also be required when power is reduced.  The Mustang requires constant trim adjustments as flight conditions and power setting are changed.  But, one of the many great design features of the Mustang are the large trim wheels just to rear and below the power quadrant.  I found it very convenient and easy to trim as I gained proficiency.

Earl, please jump in here if you've got anything to add or explain in a different way.   :salute
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 29, 2013, 11:21:09 AM
Okay puma let me see if I have this right. As a Pony approaches stall it requires more stick movement rather than the stick requiring less force to move . Is that correct ? As it goes faster it requires less movement but force required remains the same ? Like driving a car with power steering ? The faster you are going the less you need to move the steering wheel to do what you want . The effort to move the steering wheel remains the same ? Next if you could give me an analogy for trim that uses a tactile reference. Please explain what you mean by heavy . Last let me see if I have the pebbles rocks boulders analogy correct.  As the aircraft approaches stall and the airframe begins to buffet. First you feel the pebbles small vibrations . As you get closer you feel the rocks moderate vibration . Just before stall you get the boulders . Severe vibration . Does the frequency of the vibration change as well ? Say the pebbles have a lower frequency and the boulders a higher frequency of vibration ? Puma I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this in layman terms. Please let me know if I have missed anything.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Puma44 on October 29, 2013, 11:54:57 AM
You've pretty much got it Hlbly.  The pebbles (tap,tap,tap) are kind of a gentle rumble if you will and a bit more rapid because airflow is still moving somewhat efficiently across the wing, as it progresses the rocks (thump,thump, thump) are an indication of more airflow disturbance, and the boulders(bang, bang, bang) are the last warning before the stall is fully developed and lift is lost.  As far as frequency goes, probably more in the beginning and less at the end game.

The stick movement and force or load are dependant on the configuration.  High speed, accelerated stall, responsive stick input, honk the stick back, she digs in and pebbles,rocks, boulders progress rapidly (frequency?).   A fully configure landing stall with flaps 50, this stick is somewhat sloppier than above and the pebbles, rocks, and boulders develop more slowly (frequency?).  Again, the Mustang is very honest and predictable.  But, like ANY airplane, a pilot can get himself in a square corner and have areal bad outcome.

Earl mentioned the deer on the runway scenario and what he experienced.  I was taught to perform a go around with partial increase in power, flaps to 30 (less drag and more lift), trim, and then flaps 20, trim, flaps 10, trim, flaps up, trim, landing gear up, trim.  See the constant need for trim with configuration change?  My instructor said that most Mustang go around accidents result in a balked landing or bounce while trying to save the landing.  In the process, airspeed drops off, the safety margin between flying speed and stall speed closes, panic reaction occurs, a yank on the stick occurs creating a stall and immediate application of full power results in what Earl described below; the stall occurs and the high power setting creates a torque roll, and over she goes onto her back with no altitude to recover.  Earl needed 800 feet to get back under control in that situation.  At only a few feet above the runway, it's all history from there.

Your power steering is another good analogy to describe use of trim.  In trim...power steering, out of trim.....power steering has failed.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hitech on October 29, 2013, 12:34:00 PM
The only use of Funky Chicken I have ever heard, is how a pilot looks when recovering from G lock.

Also I had a very difficult time feeling the edge in the Mustang for accelerated stalls as compared to other aircraft I a have flown.  But a quick forward stick and rudder stomp always hooked me right back up after about a 1/4 to 1/2 snap. These were done at around 200 mph.

HiTech
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 29, 2013, 12:59:03 PM
Got no idea what you are trying to say here. As I clearly stated you ignored my test to reproduce bug on FFB . Also to address one of your other statements . You are once again wrong. Entirely wrong. Trim is not modeled in here. When stall was removed so was trim since it did nothing. Man why participate in discussion when you do not keep current ? Puma I have a couple of questions for you I hope you will answer sir . As a pony goes slower does the stick become easier or more difficult to move ? What causes the initial subtle shaking of the stick ? Does the airframe vibrate ? Is it just vibration from one or more of the control surfaces ? Maybe Earl will answer ?

Stall was removed? Trim was removed? Really? The only thing removed was the vibration you complained about.

The only bug you went on about in my old FFB thread was the reversal bug which I already addressed in this thread. I also explained in this thread why you don't feel the trim forces with a G-940.  That's why I pointed out that you're ignoring everything I write here.

The G-940 becomes harder to move with speed, as it should, unless it has the latest firmware, as I already mentioned. I explained this 3 years ago and again in this thread. That's a hardware problem that HTC cannot fix. You can't expect them to waste their time just because you don't get that.

The only thing missing from Aces High FFB is the pre-stall vibration that you convinced them to remove. Before you complain again that I don't know what I'm talking about or I'm standing in the way of progress try rereading what I wrote. Slowly.

You've been wrong, rude, and insulting for 3 years now, all because I asked you once not to go off topic in my FFB thread with the unrelated reversal bug.

Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Puma44 on October 29, 2013, 02:15:29 PM
The only use of Funky Chicken I have ever heard, is how a pilot looks when recovering from G lock.

Also I had a very difficult time feeling the edge in the Mustang for accelerated stalls as compared to other aircraft I a have flown.  But a quick forward stick and rudder stomp always hooked me right back up after about a 1/4 to 1/2 snap. These were done at around 200 mph.

HiTech
It kinda got used for all sorts of "Hey watch this" type maneuvers, HiTech.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: gyrene81 on October 29, 2013, 02:29:48 PM
It kinda got used for all sorts of "Hey watch this" type maneuvers, HiTech.
those are not good words in the air, on the water or on the ground...
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: earl1937 on October 29, 2013, 02:53:19 PM
Okay puma let me see if I have this right. As a Pony approaches stall it requires more stick movement rather than the stick requiring less force to move . Is that correct ? As it goes faster it requires less movement but force required remains the same ? Like driving a car with power steering ? The faster you are going the less you need to move the steering wheel to do what you want . The effort to move the steering wheel remains the same ? Next if you could give me an analogy for trim that uses a tactile reference. Please explain what you mean by heavy . Last let me see if I have the pebbles rocks boulders analogy correct.  As the aircraft approaches stall and the airframe begins to buffet. First you feel the pebbles small vibrations . As you get closer you feel the rocks moderate vibration . Just before stall you get the boulders . Severe vibration . Does the frequency of the vibration change as well ? Say the pebbles have a lower frequency and the boulders a higher frequency of vibration ? Puma I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this in layman terms. Please let me know if I have missed anything.
:airplane: In the "Ponie", there is a wide range of control movement required to do certain procedures and or maneuvers! Think of it like this, and you will find it true with about any aircraft, (can't speak of jet aircraft, with auto-trim), The faster you are going, the more sensitive the controls, which require less movement to obtain the attitude that you want the aircraft in. The slower the speed, of course, now the controls are not as effective and require much more stick and rudder and elevator movement to maintain the attitude and airspeed which you want. As far as "flutter" or viberation of control surface's, you won't notice much in the ponie, except when you have ords racks hanging under the wing. Then you have a whole new set of aerodynamics which affect the aircraft at slow speeds, such as landings or stall practice.
The ponie has always had a bad rep about snapping to the left in stalls, but what I have found out is, most people have heard this and guarding against the dreaded snap, they ride a little right rudder and the cross control situation does in fact produce a snap to the left.
The elevator and rudder are affected by the down flaps at slow speeds for landing, but with attention to trim, its no problem as I remember. There is no danger of the Ponie going into a "Deep" stall, as at any fuel load, the nose is to nose heavy in the slow speed realm of flight and the nose will come down if you run out of airspeed, with no power.
Now some of the fighters, like the ponie, had a low frequencies antenna running from behind the cockpit back to the vertical stabilizer and that could be causing some of the viberations which you hear people talk of. Below is a link to a good picture, showing the low frequencies antenna.

http://www.354thpmfg.com/Fighters/P-51/P-51DMustang.pdf

You won't see the LF antenna on all the privately owned Ponies running around the country, because LF is no longer used like it was during the war years of the 40's and 50's. Maybe that is where AH got the viberation deal on the Ponie! Not sure of that though.

Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Puma44 on October 29, 2013, 02:53:48 PM
those are not good words in the air, on the water or on the ground...
Oh, so true!
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 29, 2013, 03:21:27 PM
Stall was removed? Trim was removed? Really? The only thing removed was the vibration you complained about.

The only bug you went on about in my old FFB thread was the reversal bug which I already addressed in this thread. I also explained in this thread why you don't feel the trim forces with a G-940.  That's why I pointed out that you're ignoring everything I write here.

The G-940 becomes harder to move with speed, as it should, unless it has the latest firmware, as I already mentioned. I explained this 3 years ago and again in this thread. That's a hardware problem that HTC cannot fix. You can't expect them to waste their time just because you don't get that.

The only thing missing from Aces High FFB is the pre-stall vibration that you convinced them to remove. Before you complain again that I don't know what I'm talking about or I'm standing in the way of progress try rereading what I wrote. Slowly.

You've been wrong, rude, and insulting for 3 years now, all because I asked you once not to go off topic in my FFB thread with the unrelated reversal bug.


Yes stall slider was removed in clipboard/options/controls/force feedback. It is gone replaced by stall buffet and high speed buffet.Stop with the bs FLS . Read pumas reply to me about buffet. You wanted a vibration when there is no vibration in the airframe. You want it to vibrate when the stall horn sounds before the airframe vibrates.That is how it used to work and it felt like rocks as per the analogy. Problem is you are still on asphalt and you feel rocks. Plenty of other problems with that I don't want to rehash. Every FFB stick I have used has been exactly the same in FFB effects. Sidewinder effects Same as G940 same as Wingman Force . If you read PUMA's reply to me. I want exactly what he describes. I want pebbles , rocks , boulders. What we have is rocks. All we ever had is rocks where I set my FFB settings. I could turn buffet down and have pebbles I guess . It wont start until the plane hits rocks. Same with boulders, it will start as soon as we hit rocks. I want pebbles when I hit pebbles . I want rocks when I hit rocks. I want boulders when I hit boulders. FLS you are self centered. You want it wrong because you liked it wrong. If they could have stall and buffet separate. I would not care . Be wrong and enjoy . I will disable stall and no harm done. Maybe you can go somewhere and ask for that. Put stall back in simple. Everyone but you can disable stall . Quit asking me to want it wrong. I just want my pebbles rocks and boulders. Puma did the best job of explaining what I want that I ever heard. FLS you remember the guys name that was the voice that got it changed. It was never me. I tried for years. He did it in weeks. No problem there he is a pilot . I am not. I wish you would give me that name so when I am telling this story I can use the handles of the two guys that have been involved in this discussion . That are real pilots that helped me. Puma for his very clear explanations and analogies. The other guy for the sheer joy when he so politely told you . I was right all those and by extension these years and you have been the proud champion of I could not be more wrong if I tried. I was mistaken about trim I just never use it. Might be because I am learning what it is supposed to feel like. All I have ever talked about is buffet that I wanted. Quit trying to say I convinced them. I did not and you know it. You are so anal about what you want you dis rail every conversation there ever is about it. Let me ask you a question. Do you think I have paid my debt to the community for being ignorant about BBS etiquette and going off topic in your thread ? I know someone with such stellar manors like you has never been new to anything and made an error. If you look closely at the same time I was resurrecting dead threads to. Pardon me for failing to be perfect like you are. I will try to avoid petulant and contrary and childish as well. Did YOU read that slow enough to see sarcasm at any point. I had to delete 7 sentences FLS because I do not want this thread locked. I am not one of the cool kids in here. I really enjoy guys like Puma and NrShida. With them it is a discussion to learn. All you want to do is win. The problem is you want to blame me because something was fixed. One last thing here is a quote from you "The G-940 becomes harder to move with speed, as it should, unless it has the latest firmware, as I already mentioned. I explained this 3 years ago and again in this thread. That's a hardware problem that HTC cannot fix. You can't expect them to waste their time just because you don't get that. " Are you sure about that ? Are you sure that G940 does not become harder to move as you accelerate with new firmware ? Might want to try that out with some different settings in game and OUT just as I have tried to tell you before. It works as you describe for more than me. Just not very well. Guess what FLS . That to is the same no matter what FFB stick used.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 29, 2013, 03:26:17 PM
No sliders were removed or added. High speed buffet was never part of the stall. If you knew anything about stalls you wouldn't have posted this 3 weeks ago.

We dop not have accelerated stalls in here correct ? What causes them ? How do you recover from one ?

When you stall at more than 1G it's an accelerated stall. They're caused by pulling too much pitch. You recover by pulling less.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 29, 2013, 03:46:46 PM
No sliders were removed or added. High speed buffet was never part of the stall. If you knew anything about stalls you wouldn't have posted this 3 weeks ago.

Really so it is your position that the FFB in game control sliders are exactly the same as when you liked the FFB model ? That there was never a slider labeled "Stall" just the word stall ? That there never was a slider labeled just "Buffet". Is that what you are saying ? If I show you a screen shot that clearly has those will you leave me alone forever ? Will you stay out of every FFB thread posted as long as I am a member of this board ? If the sliders are not there I will stay out of every FFB thread as long as you are a member . Nor will I ever start one again.  Want to wager 6 months of AH2 while we are at it ? My position is that there was a slider labeled buffet and only buffet. There was a slider labeled stall and only stall .How about it put your money where your mouth is ? Look I ain't greedy. I would just be absolutely tickled with just the first part of the wager.If either of us start a thread the loser stays out of it. Any thread that is about FFB the loser stays out of no matter who starts it. Loser does not get to start any FFB threads. :x :x :x :x :x
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 29, 2013, 03:55:03 PM
I'd say the sliders were renamed for clarity which is not the same as being removed and added.

I was mistaken about trim I just never use it.

Progress!   :D
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: nrshida on October 29, 2013, 04:02:39 PM
I'd say the sliders were renamed for clarity which is not the same as being removed and added.

Well you would wouldn't you. I mean if you were seen to be wrong your head might explode or something.

This thread is now a tragedy. Did it jump or was it pushed I'm wondering.


Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 29, 2013, 08:20:44 PM
I got one of my G940s out of storage and hooked it up. It seems to work just like I said it did.  :lol

If the stall buffet interferes with riding the edge just turn it down.  :aok

Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 29, 2013, 11:44:08 PM
I'd say the sliders were renamed for clarity which is not the same as being removed and added.

Progress!   :D
Removed to avoid lock
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 29, 2013, 11:46:34 PM
I got one of my G940s out of storage and hooked it up. It seems to work just like I said it did.  :lol

If the stall buffet interferes with riding the edge just turn it down.  :aok


Okay FLS once again you try to obscure or deflect. Ignore what you do not like. Read Puma post . Problem is you are wrong. I have my G940 set up it does work just as I said. Not as you state. Once again you could not be more wrong.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 30, 2013, 12:06:12 AM
I'd say the sliders were renamed for clarity which is not the same as being removed and added.

Progress!   :D
Not fair you are debating someone who is honest FLS . I am not. Quit crayfishing . There used to be a slider labeled stall it was connected to the stall horn. It is gone. No other word works other than removed. There was never an effect labeled stall buffet. Nothing else works other than added. You said nothing added nothing removed. My God man have some strength of conviction.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 30, 2013, 12:16:02 AM
When you said there were no trim forces I assumed your stick couldn't produce them. I didn't know you just never turned them on. I haven't tried the porked firmware in 3 years but I recall the trim forces not being the noticeable. If yours works there's half your wish granted!  :aok

If you have a slider called "buffet" that adjusts high speed buffet, and a slider called "stall" that adjusts stall buffet, and you replace them with a slider called "high speed buffet" that adjusts high speed buffet , and a slider called "stall buffet" that adjusts stall buffet, then you really haven't removed and added sliders, you've just renamed the sliders you already had.

The vibration concurrent with the stall horn was part of the "stall" slider that also adjusted the stall buffet. It was removed at the time the sliders were renamed. This is a matter of record not opinion.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 30, 2013, 12:22:15 AM
I'd say the sliders were renamed for clarity which is not the same as being removed and added.

Progress!   :D
FLS if it is just a case of renamed for clarity why are we debating. Nothing is different just more clear. Whew debate over  :rock :rock :rock :rock :rock :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 30, 2013, 12:23:56 AM
When you said there were no trim forces I assumed your stick couldn't produce them. I didn't know you just never turned them on. I haven't tried the porked firmware in 3 years but I recall the trim forces not being the noticeable. If yours works there's half your wish granted!  :aok

If you have a slider called "buffet" that adjusts high speed buffet, and a slider called "stall" that adjusts stall buffet, and you replace them with a slider called "high speed buffet" that adjusts high speed buffet , and a slider called "stall buffet" that adjusts stall buffet, then you really haven't removed and added sliders, you've just renamed the sliders you already had.

The vibration concurrent with the stall horn was part of the "stall" slider that also adjusted the stall buffet. It was removed at the time the sliders were renamed. This is a matter of record not opinion.

It had nothing to do with buffet. Do you have any idea how FFB works ? It was related to stall horn . Nothing to do with buffet. Try again. "It was removed" pretty much says it all . your confusion must be due to the fact stall horn was still blaring when the buffet is going on. Right ?
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 30, 2013, 01:59:24 AM
(http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae68/Art_Lee/ahss1_zpsf535346d.png)][URL=http://s958.photobucket.com/user/Art_Lee/media/ahss1_zpsf535346d.png.html](http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae68/Art_Lee/ahss1_zpsf535346d.png) (http://[URL=http://s958.photobucket.com/user/Art_Lee/media/ahss1_zpsf535346d.png.html)[/url] Can't figure this out but here it is.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 30, 2013, 02:41:44 AM
Can't figure this out but here it is.

What part are you having trouble with? As you can see it's the same setup we have now with the bottom 2 sliders now having less ambiguous names. The vibration was on the stall slider with the stall buffet. It worked like Puma44 said it should work but it wasn't specific to the Mustang, it was generalized for all the aircraft which in reality all have different stall characteristics. The stall buffet is at CLmax and gives you that very useful information. The vibration that preceded it also was useful like the stall buzzer. The stall buzzer isn't modeled because every WW2 aircraft had one. The stall buzzer makes up for the lack of G loading when you sit in front of your PC and "fly". The vibration did the same thing with haptics. It makes the experience of flying on your PC better because it helps make up for the missing sensory feedback you get in a real aircraft.

Try setting the Logitech driver to 100%. Do not check spring centering.
Set AH trim to 100%
Set AH Damage, Weapons, and Guns to 10%
Set AH Stall Buffet and High Speed Buffet to 25%

That will give you the benefit of the effects without interfering with flying or shooting.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 30, 2013, 03:20:00 PM
Wow a complete lack of anything honest in all your posts. Let's make it simple. You will not stand by your words . Check. You do not want to bet. Check. Now we have that out of the way we can let it go. Let's talk about what the post is about . I want my pebbles , rocks , and boulders. In other words . I want it how it should be. Stay focused here FLS. Pebbles , rocks,boulders.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Triton28 on October 30, 2013, 03:26:52 PM
I'm gonna have to play with my FFB.  I haven't messed with the sliders since day one with the G940. 

I don't think the return to center works right in the game.  It's super sloppy sitting still and much tighter at speed.  That's always seemed not right to me.   
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: nrshida on October 30, 2013, 11:59:20 PM
Why isn't there a slider to turn the FLS down?

Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Puma44 on October 31, 2013, 12:32:52 AM
 :rofl
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 31, 2013, 04:10:16 AM
 :rofl OMG shida it deserves it's own wishlist thread.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 31, 2013, 04:16:47 AM
When you said there were no trim forces I assumed your stick couldn't produce them. I KNEW THAT FROM YOUR OFFER TO SHARE YOUR SETTINGS WITH ME> I haven't tried the porked firmware in 3 years but I INSIST ON BEING A DISTRACTION SINCE MY EGO WAS CRUSHED BY BEING SHOWN WRONG BY A HLBLY. IF I GO AWAY FOREVER there's half HLBLY'S wish granted!  :aok

If you have a slider called "buffet" that adjusts NOTHING, and a slider called "stall" that adjusts AN EFFECT LINKED TO A STALL HORN . YOU HAVE A BUG AND A MISTAKE .
The vibration concurrent with the stall horn was part of the BUG. This is a matter of record not opinion.

Fixed . Quit teasing me .
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 31, 2013, 11:48:01 AM
If you thought the buffet slider affected the stall buffet then it follows that you'd think it did nothing. The high speed buffet has nothing to do with the stall buffet. The sliders were relabeled to help you understand that. When you dive until the aircraft shakes you are seeing the high speed buffet. When you pull pitch until the aircraft shakes you are seeing the stall buffet.

You could easily confirm that for yourself, since you loaded an old version of Aces High to take a screenshot of the FFB sliders, now that you know what they're supposed to do.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 31, 2013, 05:41:09 PM
If you thought the buffet slider affected the stall buffet then it follows that you'd think it did nothing. The high speed buffet has nothing to do with the stall buffet. The sliders were relabeled to help you understand that. When you dive until the aircraft shakes you are seeing the high speed buffet. When you pull pitch until the aircraft shakes you are seeing the stall buffet.

You could easily confirm that for yourself, since you loaded an old version of Aces High to take a screenshot of the FFB sliders, now that you know what they're supposed to do.
Thank you so much for this post. Clearly you know you are being less than truthful. This thread the first post tells it all now doesn't it. Please everyone read the first post in thread I am linking. It also gives me the name FLS did not want to reveal. The other pilot that has flown these planes and knows.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,293214.0.html

Baumer is way smarter than me FLS he told you how it should be then ignored you. Another lie exposed can you go away now and quit with the childishness ?
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: mechanic on October 31, 2013, 06:12:31 PM
I'm gonna have to play with my FFB.  I haven't messed with the sliders since day one with the G940.  

I don't think the return to center works right in the game.  It's super sloppy sitting still and much tighter at speed.  That's always seemed not right to me.  


I thought that was quite a good feature, in some real planes I have had a go in the stick is slack when there is no airflow over the surfaces. I think that the old warbirds had truly analog control with no auto centering of the stick without airflow. I could be totally wrong though  :lol
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 31, 2013, 06:21:27 PM
Thank you so much for this post. Clearly you know you are being less than truthful. This thread the first post tells it all now doesn't it. Please everyone read the first post in thread I am linking. It also gives me the name FLS did not want to reveal. The other pilot that has flown these planes and knows.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,293214.0.html

Baumer is way smarter than me FLS he told you how it should be then ignored you. Another lie exposed can you go away now and quit with the childishness ?

What your link actually shows is the confusion caused by the old slider labels which is why they were renamed. That's why my last comment in that link is that I forgot about the high speed buffet.

You might also note that Baumer and I had a civil conversation.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 31, 2013, 07:43:17 PM

I thought that was quite a good feature, in some real planes I have had a go in the stick is slack when there is no airflow over the surfaces. I think that the old warbirds had truly analog control with no auto centering of the stick without airflow. I could be totally wrong though  :lol

You're not wrong. The actual position of the stick in flight is set by the trim.  :aok
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on October 31, 2013, 07:50:53 PM

I thought that was quite a good feature, in some real planes I have had a go in the stick is slack when there is no airflow over the surfaces. I think that the old warbirds had truly analog control with no auto centering of the stick without airflow. I could be totally wrong though  :lol
Batty AirWarrior had the buffet right. Pebbles rocks boulders.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: mechanic on October 31, 2013, 08:04:26 PM
I'm sure man, I wasn't talking about the buffet, just the FFB being slack when the plane is sat motionless on the runway.

I have no right to enter this debate on either side of the main talking point, I didn't even know what haptics was until this thread.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on October 31, 2013, 08:08:48 PM
The reference was to real warbirds not the game Warbirds.  ;)
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: mechanic on October 31, 2013, 08:11:25 PM
ahh that is where the confusion came in, sorry HB my phrases was ambiguous, I meant the old planes. I never played Warbirds, AH was the first game of any kind I played with others online
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: nrshida on November 01, 2013, 12:46:59 AM
What your link actually shows is the confusion caused by the old slider labels which is why they were renamed. That's why my last comment in that link is that I forgot about the high speed buffet.

A truly heroic piece of goalpost moving in this thread FLS. More winning than Charlie Sheen  :lol


You might also note that Baumer and I had a civil conversation.

Perhaps you didn't patronise him.

Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: USRanger on November 01, 2013, 01:32:47 AM
A truly heroic piece of goalpost moving in this thread FLS. More winning than Charlie Sheen  :lol


Perhaps you didn't patronise him.



Do you have anything useful to add to this thread, or are you just here to run your mouth & troll as usual?
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: nrshida on November 01, 2013, 01:37:53 AM
Do you have anything useful to add to this thread, or are you just here to run your mouth & troll as usual?

How is it possible to add anything useful. FLS has ensured this thread has been derailed from the start with a years old grudge over a misunderstanding on his part.

Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: nrshida on November 01, 2013, 01:38:58 AM
or are you just here to run your mouth & troll as usual?

Oh yeah, bite me while you're about it.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on November 01, 2013, 02:59:00 PM
What your link actually shows is the confusion caused by the old slider labels which is why they were renamed. That's why my last comment in that link is that I forgot about the high speed buffet.

You might also note that Baumer and I had a civil conversation.
The last post made by Baumer shows how hard it was to remain polite with you . Note the sarcasm engage.

From Baumer in reply to FLS    "I'm sorry I didn't mean to confuse anyone by using terms I thought were interchangeable. So I will work harder on being clear and concise going forward.

Here are the points that I am trying to make clear.

1.) Prior to the onset of the stall shake on screen in Aces High (with or without force feedback) there should be no vibration/shudder/rumble/buffet in the force feedback system. This is due to the fact that there is no separation of airflow prior to stall shake on screen.

2.) Once the stall shake occurs on screen in Aces High, the stall slider should control that force.

3.) The stall shake on screen in Aces High is different then the stall speed that you would find in a manual. This is due to the fact that in Aces High the stall shake on screen happens the moment any single point on the wing is stalled.

I hope that helps make my opinion more clear about making FFB work more accurately."
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on November 01, 2013, 03:25:27 PM
Do you have anything useful to add to this thread, or are you just here to run your mouth & troll as usual?
Ranger this thread has been derailed from the beginning. It was about making the stall buffet better in FFB. Years ago I found a bug in the system while trying to figure out how to say the stall buffet was wrong. At first I just knew it felt wrong compared to other sims I had flown. During my research while playing with settings I found the bug. Before posting I also found out how it should work. So now armed with a cogent well thought out argument I posted. Every thread I started every one about ffb I entered. I was soon assaulted by FLS and his cheerleaders. My only progress, HTC acknowledged the bug. Nothing was done to fix it or the incorrect stall buffet no matter what I tried thanks a great deal,I suspect, to FLS . Things remained the same for years until a guy named Baumer showed up . A retired Navy pilot and someone like Puma had flown some of the planes in the game. He basically said I was right and FLS and crew were wrong. Few days later FFB bug and stall error were fixed. Did this stop FLS from trolling ? Well look at this thread and you decide. What really cracks me up is when FLS tells NrShida he does not know what he is talking about. NrShida did a university paper on haptics. I believe while going to school for programming. FLS has a superiority complex when it comes to me. No doubt due to education. The line in my signature is a quote from a West Point graduate that was my platoon leader. He was talking to an ROTC graduate about listening to me when in the field. It is there in direct response to how I used to let FLS make me feel. Call it trolling if you will but if you read all the threads where FLS comes to derail them. You will note he just "moves the goal post" when he is wrong in a statement. A perfect example is his statement about how he and Baumer had a civilized  conversation. It went slightly sarcastic on Baumer's side. Went no further because Baumer refused to debate him any more.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on November 01, 2013, 03:33:41 PM
A truly heroic piece of goalpost moving in this thread FLS. More winning than Charlie Sheen  :lol


Perhaps you didn't patronise him.


Oh he did. You will note if you go back to the linked thread FLS was his usual charming self. Baumer got quite sarcastic with him. It is SOP for FLS and he is just moving the goalpost again.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on November 02, 2013, 03:44:28 PM
Hlbly when you loaded an old version of Aces High you just took a screenshot of the sliders. Nobody disagrees that the sliders were renamed. Why didn't you check their function? You argued that the buffet slider did nothing. Why not confirm that? Confirm that it doesn't control the high speed buffet. Why not confirm that the stall slider doesn't turn down the stall buffet?  So far your evidence has just illustrated my explanations. Take the next step. 
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on November 04, 2013, 02:31:53 PM
Wow Really why would I need to do that ? Doing that is how I discovered the bug that the buffet slider controlled nothing. What a tool you are . Does Harley Davidson know you are making their product the object of derision by claiming it ? Everyone knows a compensator like you can't ride a bike.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on November 04, 2013, 03:11:46 PM
I'm not getting the Harley reference. When I was racing it wasn't on a Harley.

What you would learn is that the buffet slider controls the high speed buffet.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Puma44 on November 04, 2013, 04:36:28 PM
Wow, you two are still going at each other?  How about taking a deep breath, relax, and let it go.  It appears you're never going to agree, so why not agree that the other guy is wrong and mosey on to something else.   :salute
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on November 04, 2013, 05:02:55 PM
Wow, you two are still going at each other?  How about taking a deep breath, relax, and let it go.  It appears you're never going to agree, so why not agree that the other guy is wrong and mosey on to something else.   :salute

Don't be impatient. Hlbly has already learned one thing. Two to go.  :D

I just hope the Harley reference wasn't about my avatar.  :lol
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Puma44 on November 04, 2013, 07:25:13 PM
Don't be impatient. Hlbly has already learned one thing. Two to go.  :D

I just hope the Harley reference wasn't about my avatar.  :lol
Good, at least you're smiling   :rofl
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on November 04, 2013, 09:27:05 PM
Don't be impatient. Hlbly has already learned one thing. Two to go.  :D

I just hope the Harley reference wasn't about my avatar.  :lol
The only thing I have learned is you do not learn. That and well some women should unhinge their jaw and swallow some children whole.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on November 04, 2013, 09:50:46 PM
The only thing I have learned is you do not learn...

What you learned so far, is that trim is already a part of the FFB. There are more lessons to come.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: nrshida on November 04, 2013, 11:04:51 PM
What you learned so far, is that trim is already a part of the FFB. There are more lessons to come.

Looks to me like you are learning as you go along too. Only you are being less honest about it and implying you already know everything.




Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on November 04, 2013, 11:20:22 PM
Hlbly you didn't explain the Harley remark. Did you really confuse an aircraft with a motorcycle?


Btw if you don't take the opportunity to prove me wrong people are likely to think that you did test the old version but for some inexplicable reason you don't want to post the results.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: nrshida on November 04, 2013, 11:38:13 PM
Hlbly you didn't explain the Harley remark. Did you really confuse an aircraft with a motorcycle?


Btw if you don't take the opportunity to prove me wrong people are likely to think that you did test the old version but for some inexplicable reason you don't want to post the results.


Dude, you must have some form of Asperger's.

The burden of proof is not on Hlbly since you are the one continually suggesting he is too stupid to understand (like in the highlighted part above), have consistently suggested the bug he found was a feature when Baumer, not to mention the HTC staff agreed with him and you continue to imply you know better without supplying any evidence or explanation. Yet you expect Hlbly to do your leg work for you.

Also, please do continue to ignore me. I'm sure you think you are 'winning' by doing this too, in actuality this is rather like a boxing match with my opponent's arms tied behind his back and I just found out he slept with my wife.



Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on November 05, 2013, 03:37:04 AM
Hlbly you didn't explain the Harley remark. Did you really confuse an aircraft with a motorcycle?


Btw if you don't take the opportunity to prove me wrong people are likely to think that you did test the old version but for some inexplicable reason you don't want to post the results.
The way you compensate really ? A big bike or a small jet. I think you are once again trying to cloud what the truth is.  :aok   Like you do not ignore people points or things. Time to reply to nrshida I would say. The thread was not about trim. Good thing for you because you know nothing about trim I would wager . ;)   Wrong again with your assumption about high speed buffet being controlled by buffet slider on this patch. Good guess but wrong patch for it to control high speed buffet. It is a pre Baumer's input patch. Guess again. Only one answer left .....stretch FLS you can do it.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on November 05, 2013, 04:10:35 AM
Wow, you two are still going at each other?  How about taking a deep breath, relax, and let it go.  It appears you're never going to agree, so why not agree that the other guy is wrong and mosey on to something else.   :salute
Sorry Puma . I have let it go many times. I am right and he is wrong and I just don't think quitting has helped anything in the past. I want him to stop derailing my threads. I want him to leave me alone. Backing down from a bully only leads to more abuse. It is always that way with cowards and bullies. I have sought him out not one time. I can not post a thread about anything that he can take a contrary stand on he does not interject himself. I have dealt with it for years. The smile was nothing friendly or even true on his part. It was simply another attempt to goad me. He does not need to goad me. I will not back down from him anymore. Several posts back I said it was my last reply to him. I went through everything we have butted heads on. Backing down always leads to more of the same.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Megalodon on November 05, 2013, 09:33:08 AM
Sorry Puma . I have let it go many times. I am right and he is wrong and I just don't think quitting has helped anything in the past. I want him to stop derailing my threads. I want him to leave me alone. Backing down from a bully only leads to more abuse. It is always that way with cowards and bullies. I have sought him out not one time. I can not post a thread about anything that he can take a contrary stand on he does not interject himself. I have dealt with it for years. The smile was nothing friendly or even true on his part. It was simply another attempt to goad me. He does not need to goad me. I will not back down from him anymore. Several posts back I said it was my last reply to him. I went through everything we have butted heads on. Backing down always leads to more of the same.

 Awww dang bullies

(http://meredith.images.worldnow.com/images/23872915_BG1.jpg)

Incogneto,
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: Triton28 on November 05, 2013, 10:21:12 AM
Awww dang bullies

(http://meredith.images.worldnow.com/images/23872915_BG1.jpg)

Incogneto,

Incognito.  Get it right. 
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on November 05, 2013, 12:44:55 PM
The way you compensate really ? A big bike or a small jet. I think you are once again trying to cloud what the truth is.  :aok   Like you do not ignore people points or things. Time to reply to nrshida I would say. The thread was not about trim. Good thing for you because you know nothing about trim I would wager . ;)   Wrong again with your assumption about high speed buffet being controlled by buffet slider on this patch. Good guess but wrong patch for it to control high speed buffet. It is a pre Baumer's input patch. Guess again. Only one answer left .....stretch FLS you can do it.

So you now finally admit that the buffet slider does control the high speed buffet on the older version. That's 2 down, one to go.
Your claim that the buffet slider was previously "fixed" is not believable. It was never broken.

Did you happen to also test the Stall slider to confirm it controls the stall buffet as well as the vibration that was removed?

Edit: I think I got the small jet reference. That's the previous avatar and the motorcycle is the current avatar?  The "small jet" is my dad landing his sailplane at Harris Hill. I took the photo, it was printed in Sport Aviation magazine, ironically there was no compensation. The "motorcycle" is his Tiger Moth biplane.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on November 05, 2013, 03:48:13 PM
So you now finally admit that the buffet slider does control the high speed buffet on the older version. That's 2 down, one to go.
Your claim that the buffet slider was previously "fixed" is not believable. It was never broken.

Did you happen to also test the Stall slider to confirm it controls the stall buffet as well as the vibration that was removed?

Edit: I think I got the small jet reference. That's the previous avatar and the motorcycle is the current avatar?  The "small jet" is my dad landing his sailplane at Harris Hill. I took the photo, it was printed in Sport Aviation magazine, ironically there was no compensation. The "motorcycle" is his Tiger Moth biplane.
Hey gashole....can you read? Do you know how to click a link ?  Last post in this thread from sudz.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,247921.msg3042019.html#msg3042019

Sudz not good enough ? How about Skuzzy ?

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,241749.msg2941721.html#msg2941721

Do you want to see the PM's from.... Nah I don't want you to see those....might hurt your feelings. Sorry Sudz and Skuzzy will have to do. To bad because I think a lot of people would get as big a chuckle out of it as I do.


Here let me do it for you we know how lazy you are. I post....."Buffet doesn't work in FF .Turn off stall in force feedback . Then try it ."


Sudz reply......"We are aware of this and one other FF bug.  Unfortunately, an in-house hardware hiccup caused a delay in addressing either issue. We were, however, able to confirm both as bugs and are on the list to be fixed." Note the word bug not feature . I do not know how to make it more simple .

In thread where skuzzy acknowledges bug ... I post this in reply to someone that insists it is my stick...."actually it is the game . tried 3 different sticks myself before i started asking . no ones stick has buffet . the stall effect starts to jar the stick when u get real close to a stall .but uncheck stall  nothing . for anyone ."
Simply put if stall is unchecked there is no buffet at all period for anyone do you understand that? Is it clear to you ? No I doubt it. So here it is just for you.

From Skuzzy .........."The 'buffet' feature in the force feedback is not working at the moment."  I even gave you links . Wish I could share the PM's with you but they are a bit harsh about someone taking part in this thread. No I really do wish I could ! :rofl :rofl

Still no answer to Nrshida....my my my .....the saying bullies are really cowards is true I guess.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on November 05, 2013, 04:07:41 PM
As you yourself just proved in your own test. The buffet slider controlled the high speed buffet. The names were confusing everybody so they renamed them. Anyone with an old version and FFB stick can confirm that, but you already did it for them.  :aok
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on November 05, 2013, 04:13:14 PM
As you yourself just proved in your own test. The buffet slider controlled the high speed buffet. The names were confusing everybody so they renamed them. Anyone with an old version and FFB stick can confirm that, but you already did it for them.  :aok
Are the words too big ? Did skuzzy confuse you with "buffet" not working ? Was the use of the word "bug" by sudz  too much ? Are you really that dense? Bet you were potty trained with a shotgun!
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on November 05, 2013, 06:37:53 PM
nrshida, puma, Triton28,earl,bustr....I am going to ask you guys to look at the threads I linked. If even one of you says that I have misinterpreted what Skuzzy and Sudz wrote. I will apologize to FLS and I will close my bbs account and never log in here again. If all of you think I understood them correctly I will just ignore FLS. You four seem reasonable. I tire of what I see as circular arguments and contrary statements. I will accept the ruling of one or all five. I imagine some do not want to be involved in this. If it wasn't such a continuously occurring thing I would have dropped it long before now.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: bustr on November 05, 2013, 11:33:49 PM
I've learned to not argue with Skuzzy when he has the source code.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: hlbly on November 06, 2013, 12:18:39 AM
I've learned to not argue with Skuzzy when he has the source code.
Thats one.
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: nrshida on November 06, 2013, 12:54:21 AM
I will just ignore FLS.

I suggest this would be the best course of action. Let him think he's 'winning'. FLS has illustrated what he's all about in this thread. One would assume an official AH trainer would be all about forthright explanations and helping people rather than to use the position as a platform from which to talk down to 'ordinary' players from their pedestal of arrogance and self-importance. But alas no.

It's a shame we were unable to discuss haptics a bit more thanks to people who cannot stand to be shown to be wrong.


[/thread]
Title: Re: Better haptics
Post by: FLS on November 06, 2013, 09:50:26 AM
I've learned to not argue with Skuzzy when he has the source code.

Nobody is arguing with Skuzzy. As I explained already, the buffet slider worked before the update. Hlbly just proved that. The notion that it didn't work came from thinking that it controlled the stall buffet instead of the high speed buffet. I noted that 3 years ago as shown in the link hlbly provided. Hlbly only knows better now because I just told him how to test it.

Now if hlbly will admit that the "stall" slider controlled both the vibration, i.e. "pebbles", as well the the stall buffet, "rocks", then he'll be 3 for 3. Anyone with an old version and FFB stick can confirm that.