Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Plawranc on November 20, 2013, 05:15:48 AM
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Ok, I have seen a lot of talk recently and in fact all throughout the game's history. That DA is the ultimate settlement of chest thumping disputes. Everyone continuously goes on about how they would smack you in DA and slap you with the glove every time they get killed in MA by someone other than the guy they were shooting at.
Just going to raise a little argument, and a little hell along with it.
I used to hold the view that the DA determined the superior pilot. This may be true, however the peerless duelists good they may be at slow speeds and tend to be superior handlers of their aircraft. But I find that I have more enjoyable and tactically challenging engagements in multi-con engagements in MA.
These days it appears to me that MA has so many varying combat situations that the adaptability and overall skill of the pilot is far more vital here than in the 1v1 grudge match of the DA.
Wondering what the competitive players and duelists think about this.
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I've never been one for the DA. I'll go there with friends for a few sorties of screwing around, but the MA is where the real pilots are made. DA is only ever 1v1, co-alt, co-E, same plane matchup. How many times do you get something like that in the MA? Maybe less than 1% of the time.
Dogfights are never set in stone. I have never, in my 7+ years of playing this game, been in 2 fights that were the same. That's what I love about the MA! The unknown, you never know what you're going to get yourself into. You can kind of guess what might be going on based on Dar Bars (when they're working correctly), but what planes are the dots on radar? What altitude are they? How fast are they? What skill level is their piloting skills? Will I be engaged with one of them? Two of them? Maybe I'll have a 3v1 on my hands. You never know any of this until you get into visual range and figure it all out. You have to make split second decisions based on how the fight unfolds. THAT is dogfighting!
DA is where you go to see which of two pilots knows how to handle a certain plane better. MA is where you find out who the really skilled pilots are. :aok
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Dueling arena is the best arena for training in clean environment
Back in old days of my squadron, we used to train there, 1vs1 2vs2 4vs4, mixed combinations, like 109s vs yaks+il2 etc.
It allows you to train ACM and battle skills without MA restrictions and yet with realistic damage.
Now, no matter how good you are as a pilot. In MA you may get into 1vs4 fight in disadvantage and your chances of survival would be close to 0.
So DA allows you to ran various setups in very easy way and unlike TE, it has read damage
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The DA is the best place to go toe to toe with someone in the same plane with the same E, loser picks next plane etc.
The MA is a test of not just flying skill but of SA and friendlies willing to help and communicate.
The best pilots can do all of the above, arena doesn't mean squat.
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In my best yosimite Sam voice "their honoh has been violated."
A few years back when I finally figured the game out I got ticked off about being picked so I called a guy out to go to the da. We went he kicked my butt I swallowed my pride and that pretty much was the last time I went to the da for that reason. Yesterday however, I was starting to get a bit peeved because every bish I ran into at Tt hoed on the merges. I just logged. Htc saying that he likes people being dicks in the game has been seen as justification on 200 many times.
My 2 cents and iraqvet will yet again remind me that people will play the way they want to play and don't care what others think....
If you get picked in a 1 v 1 in TT get over it. If you get nailed taking off by a guy hovering over your base. Get over it don't up from a capped field. The da threat is a waste of 200 time and energy.
In terms of not being able to kill a guy in a tank and getting bombs, or only ho merging, frankly it ruins gameplay. The bulk of the players in the game play because it requires an element of finesse to shoot another down or to gv well. I used to see multi hundred players on line and now numbers dwindle. I attribute this largely to the console gamer attitude of many of the players. Quick fast ugly kill name on lights.
If you are reading this and want to learn to gv or acm, just pm me. Lets work together to make the game and the community both more enjoyable and challenging.
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200 is a waste of resources, first of all. The DA is a good place to go listen to the same crap spewed on 200 in the MA, except you hear it all over. Duels are just that, duels. They aren't representative of an overall war, nor do they truly represent all the skills needed to be successful in the MA. I don't bother challenging a rook or a bish, they, for the most part, aren't worth the time, other than to kill and get score off of. The DA doesn't count, I never even bother landing kills in there any more. In all the arenas, most players don't care about honor, skill or courtesy, they obviously weren't raised with those concepts....
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In all the arenas, most players don't care about honor, skill or courtesy....
While sad, this statement resonates with profound truth.
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I've never been one for the DA. I'll go there with friends for a few sorties of screwing around, but the MA is where the real pilots are made. DA is only ever 1v1, co-alt, co-E, same plane matchup. How many times do you get something like that in the MA? Maybe less than 1% of the time.
Dogfights are never set in stone. I have never, in my 7+ years of playing this game, been in 2 fights that were the same. That's what I love about the MA! The unknown, you never know what you're going to get yourself into. You can kind of guess what might be going on based on Dar Bars (when they're working correctly), but what planes are the dots on radar? What altitude are they? How fast are they? What skill level is their piloting skills? Will I be engaged with one of them? Two of them? Maybe I'll have a 3v1 on my hands. You never know any of this until you get into visual range and figure it all out. You have to make split second decisions based on how the fight unfolds. THAT is dogfighting!
I agree with every word.
Generally I'd suggest to players to grow a thicker skin. However, if a player keep chest thumping and calling you to fight him in the DA to the point it annoys you - especially if he uses PMs, tell him that you agree and for him to meet you in the DA. Then let him dry up there while you go along about your normal MA business. Not nice? well, he was the annoying one first and this bought you a few minutes of quiet and a good laugh when he comes back furious.
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My problem with the DA is F-3 mode that many people in that arena use to make fantastic deflection shots they could never make in the MA. Not everyone does it and most of the players that are regulars in the DA are great guys. However the ones that do use F-3 makes me not want to go the the DA much.
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I've been in the MA, DA, FSO, Scenarios and Snapshots for a very long time. Its not about chest thumping in any cases - those who do are probably newbies anyhow or asssholes.
Main Arena is where you learn to fly different aircraft in different situations, flying with a squad helps although its not entirely needed - you learn to build SA here. Dualing Arena is where you learn to dogfight, I've lost more fights then I've won - I don't recall the last time someone was an amazinhunk about it and this goes back 4-5 years. I've had some blow outs where I lost 5 in a row, but I don't give up - I've won some 5-0. The whole point is to learn from the experience. Flying with TopGun I had to really balance out MA, DA, and Scenarios.
Learn at your own pace, don't settle for just one arena - people are going to be amazinhunks in every arena just enjoy the game and learn from mistakes.
To me I put all my MA and DA skills into FSO, Scenarios and Snapshots - these are what counts to me. If you are winning 5-0 in the DA try an FSO and see if you can land 5 kills.
Thus being said if someone is an amazinhunk in the DA, just ignore and find someone worthy to fly against and to learn from. For everyone 1 Ahole there are 9 to help.
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The MA requires good SA and accuracy.... The DA requires a decent knowledge of ACM....The best pilots have the mix of both.
To me the MA is quite easy to score high in, which is why I'm always looking for 1v1s in there but ones that are different the the DA setup...different planes different alts, those are the best fights in the game.
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I've never been one for the DA. I'll go there with friends for a few sorties of screwing around, but the MA is where the real pilots are made. DA is only ever 1v1, co-alt, co-E, same plane matchup. How many times do you get something like that in the MA? Maybe less than 1% of the time.
Dogfights are never set in stone. I have never, in my 7+ years of playing this game, been in 2 fights that were the same. That's what I love about the MA! The unknown, you never know what you're going to get yourself into. You can kind of guess what might be going on based on Dar Bars (when they're working correctly), but what planes are the dots on radar? What altitude are they? How fast are they? What skill level is their piloting skills? Will I be engaged with one of them? Two of them? Maybe I'll have a 3v1 on my hands. You never know any of this until you get into visual range and figure it all out. You have to make split second decisions based on how the fight unfolds. THAT is dogfighting!
DA is where you go to see which of two pilots knows how to handle a certain plane better. MA is where you find out who the really skilled pilots are. :aok
Well said, Mr. Latrobe, Sir. Very well said indeed. :aok
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Okay here is my $10 worth not 2 cents :D
I've played for over 8 years and now I pretty much only fly Fighter sorties in the MA. I use to do bombing and tanks, but blahh boring to me now... was 2nd rank years ago in fighter rank and overall rank (not bragging) in the MA so I know how score and different types of fighting styles work in the MA and DA.
Main arena Tactics
Generally, they key to a good Main Arena Fighter pilot is the ability to get as many kills in one sortie as quickly as you can while being a precise/accurate shooter and then landing your kills every time you take off. (fighter rank score summed up in one sentence). Now... you may think that guy who is #15th fighter rank is pretty good (not actual 15th guy, just example) but how does this guy get most of his kills? does he hide 15k in a p51 and swoop and cherry pick kills - BnZ method. Does he fly dead on into a furball in a 109g14 out fly the crowd pick some kills and dodge BnZers - furballer method? He probably does both. His situtational awareness ables him to get kills while out maneuvering enemies that engage him. Now, does a BnZ pilot who lands and gets a lot kills picking and running make him a good fighter pilot? In WW2 hell yes! In AH, that is partial. Can the guy fight 1 v 1 in a situation where an enemy is chasing and catching him. How well can he reverse an enemy? The problem with the MA is that you tend to get 2, 3, or even 4 enemies on you at once. If your plane isn't fast enough, can you reverse them and possibly get 1 or 2 kills before you die? So lets not look at score, because for example, my fighter rank is 27th, but I die 66% of my sorties. Does that mean I am a bad MA pilot? No, I still have a 2.6 K/D. I just typically do not like constantly flying and running away (my style is furball/thrash/reverse-kill) But I use all of the styles. Granite I don't try for rank anymore. A good MA fighter pilot has the ability to get kills in almost every plane. A good MA pilot has the ability to use different fighting styles given the situation. A good MA fighter pilot can reverse, use ACM, and turn fighting skills to beat enemies who have the advantage. EVERYONE who flies in the MA has to cherry pick to get kills. The MA is unforgivable when it comes to who has the advantage in a fight. So how well can you reverse enemies, how well can you pick kills, how well can you fight 1 v 1, how well can you fight 2/3 v 1, when do you use some maneuvers compared to others in certain situations, how well your is your SA given the fighting style (like if your in a N1K2 surrounded by mostly p51s and 190Ds), how well do you use E management, and , and how many kills can you get before you land or die. These are what makes good MAers.
DA tactics.
The point of the DA is to have a fair 1 v 1 fight. Same alt, same plane, same gas, same ammo load out. The reason why so many people call out pilots in the MA to fight in the DA is because IMO the actual skill of fighting, acm knowledge, and plane knowledge is accurately depicted in a 1 v 1 fight. The general amount of pilots in the MA can BnZ and pick easy kills and run away all day long. But do these players have what it takes to actually win fights 1 v 1 when the conditions are the same. The general amount of new players believe that the DA is a ground and pound, slowest wins, who can our turn the other guy. However, the DA is perfect for learning all of the styles. You do not have to turn n burn every fight, if you know how to use E correctly in the same planes you can eventually BnZ them (ask EACE). the DA helps you learn how the planes actually fly. It helps you learn how to aim, it helps you learn how to manage E, and stalls, It helps you learn how to use the plane to its full potential, it helps you learn how to use reverse tactics, and helps you learn how to use your views correctly. The only thing you cannot do in the DA is run/HO. So this is why a lot of players challenge others to the DA, they want to see if they player actually knows more skills other than running away or HOing every chance when they lose advantage. I love going to the DA because believe it or not, it will make you 10X a better MA pilot. I have flown and fought against many of the best sticks in AH in the DA, believe me, i had my fair share of getting PWNed. But I learned from them through flying in the DA and learning real ACM, and throttle control. Now in the MA I know how to handle most situations given my E and their E, how to out maneuver them and how to gain the advantage, all from fighting top sticks in the DA 1 v 1. I think most of the MA sticks who do not fight in the DA, do not have half as much ACM skill or ability to win fights without an advantage. If your only style is BnZ and you do not ever learn ACM or reverse tactics. You are kidding yourself if you think you are a top AH stick.
Hope this isn't too long but there is a lot to know ;)
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I have a lot of experience and like to think I can hold my own at the very least compared to the top sticks in the game. But it has been a long time since I have sat in the DA for 2 hours practicing and fighting the very top sticks in the game. I've just noticed that even though I am rusty as hell in the 1v1 competing scene. When I fly in MA, I generally steamroll through most people.
I just seem to find combats against other types of aircraft in varying conditions at varying altitudes far more challenging and stimulating than a 1v1 Co-E deck merging fight in the DA.
I do miss the old days of the Top Gun dueling crew with TnDep and DrBone though
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Well said, Mr. Latrobe, Sir. Very well said indeed. :aok
Until you consider that Latrobe flies at a level that most can only dream of, is courteous and honourable, and I imagine is rarely asked to prove himself in the DA.
You on the other hand choose not to go to the DA because you feel it would rob you of whatever advantage you may find in the MA, which in my limited experience and even more limited contact with you, usually means a phenomenal alt and speed advantage coupled with a last minute HO shot . :aok
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Until you consider that Latrobe flies at a level that most can only dream of, is courteous and honourable, and I imagine is rarely asked to prove himself in the DA.
You on the other hand choose not to go to the DA because you feel it would rob you of whatever advantage you may find in the MA, which in my limited experience and even more limited contact with you, usually means a phenomenal alt and speed advantage coupled with a last minute HO shot . :aok
Latrobe will tell you I pwn him and with substantial frequency. :old:
The reverse is also true. :old:
Does that make me dream level as well? :headscratch:
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As you add more to the situation in which combat takes place, things other than DA skill can become very important.
In scenarios, for example, the characteristics of fights can be very different, and things that don't play a role in DA can be very important: handling of a plane at very high speeds, aircraft top speed, ammo load, duration aloft, squadron-level tactics, for example. Some planes that would be at a large disadvantage in one-on-one DA fights (190A-5 vs. Spit IX, P-40 vs. A6M2, for example), have advantages in the same matchup in scenario environments. Scenario fighting can be a lot different than the MA, too. Situational awareness, knowing how to handle your plane at very high altitudes, knowing good group and many-on-many tactics, for example, is much more important in scenarios than in the DA and even the MA. If you are a leader of a squadron or group, having a knack for finding or anticipating positioning of enemy groups, and accomplishing goals instead of getting pulled into fights that don't further the goal can be very important.
That being said, folks who have the highest number of kills in scenarios are people who probably are or would be quite good in the DA as well -- they have great mastery of their aircraft overall, as well as the numerous additional skills useful in scenarios.
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Latrobe will tell you I pwn him and with substantial frequency. :old:
The reverse is also true. :old:
Does that make me dream level as well? :headscratch:
Having an alt advantage does not mean you own....flying a spit 8 against a 109 does not mean you pwn
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Having an alt advantage does not mean you own....flying a spit 8 against a 109 does not mean you pwn
Agreed on both counts. Also willing to bet the "pwning" doesn't take place all that often.
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Agreed on both counts. Also willing to bet the "pwning" doesn't take place all that often.
1 or 2 times is substantial frequency in his book
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1 or 2 times is substantial frequency in his book
:rolleyes:
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True Pwnage is upping from a field Midway is alone at in his spit 8 in a lesser version of the model.....reversing his altitude and speed advantage and shooting him down....True Pwnage....if I wanted to actually have to try I should have upped a ki61 or 109...end result still the same though.
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Latrobe will tell you I pwn him and with substantial frequency. :old:
The reverse is also true. :old:
Does that make me dream level as well? :headscratch:
I think I will for the first time, put someone on my ignore list....
Anyway... The DA to me only proves you can DA well. As has been said, the MA requires more than DA skills, it requires DA skills plus SA and knowledge of the strengths and weakness of other planes. MA = harder...
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I think I will for the first time, put someone on my ignore list....
Anyway... The DA to me only proves you can DA well. As has been said, the MA requires more than DA skills, it requires DA skills plus SA and knowledge of the strengths and weakness of other planes. MA = harder...
Agree 100%.
Man...I've agreed twice now with Papa AK. :noid
:D
P.S. Middy's been on my forum ignore list for some time now. Do yourself a favor and free your mind to work on more mature matters than his tomfoolery! :D
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Anyway... The DA to me only proves you can DA well. As has been said, the MA requires more than DA skills, it requires DA skills plus SA and knowledge of the strengths and weakness of other planes. MA = harder...
That's true especially the SA part. However, the DA does a very good job of figuring out the planes strengths and weaknesses too. For example, the Ki84 is a great Vert fighter, many wouldn't necessarily pick that up very easily in the MA and continue to try to "outurn" rather than out angle and use its climb ability Hammer stall in the rolling scissors (advanced type maneuvers) Eg, it's better at looping than flat turning.
I find that the general population has a tough time performing defense maneuvers when a con approaches their 6 at a higher speed. Again the DA can train well for this type of experience. It will also help you learn other airplanes that are not as fast and their abilities, (such as the N1K2), which is a fantastic plane and great for training, you don't see it flown much in the MA because it's rather slow (great diver though). People tend to stick to running away or simply staying high and fast all of the time in the MA because this seems to be the "best approach", instead of learning valuable defense tactics and understanding what a slower plane's fighting style is capable of (such as reverse tactics) in a MA full of BnZers 190Ds and p51Ds
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MA is not really harder, MA is more annoying if anything.
More than half the pilots in the MA will run at the first sight of losing a fight, in the DA it is understood that you won't run and you will use ACM (in most cases) to get out of your hole.
I don't care about MA or DA, I fly the same in both Arenas for the most part. Just in the DA you can shut people up (Midway) who doesn't know how to fly anything outside of one aircraft. Most who ONLY fly the MA aren't really that great in the DA, BUT there are exceptions for example: Latrobe is good regardless, he doesn't limit himself to any plane and he will fly any plane that he deems flyable. (Latrobe is the only person I know that flies into a furball upside down) BUT there are those people who won't fly anything besides ONE plane and if they die in a plane other than that plane they specialize in they have a barrage of excuses as to why they died and it is almost ALWAYS because they weren't in their favorite ride. My favorite ride is a Spit9, I don't fly it that often because if you learn to fly all the planes you will never be caught off guard. I often laugh at people like: YouDie, Jayro, Midway, DESO etc etc because they are limited almost completely to one aircraft, YouDie/Jayro/SFOX = Hog ;Midway = Spit8; DESO = Spit16 . YouDie being the worst of the group, will come up with EVERY excuse in the world as to why he died if he was not in a F4U.
Just my 2 cents, I don't care. :o
I fly what I want to fly, where I want to fly, when I want to fly. :airplane:
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That's true especially the SA part. However, the DA does a very good job of figuring out the planes strengths and weaknesses too. For example, the Ki84 is a great Vert fighter, many wouldn't necessarily pick that up very easily in the MA and continue to try to "outurn" rather than out angle and use its climb ability Hammer stall in the rolling scissors (advanced type maneuvers) Eg, it's better at looping than flat turning.
I find that the general population has a tough time performing defense maneuvers when a con approaches their 6 at a higher speed. Again the DA can train well for this type of experience. It will also help you learn other airplanes that are not as fast and their abilities, (such as the N1K2), which is a fantastic plane and great for training, you don't see it flown much in the MA because it's rather slow (great diver though). People tend to stick to running away or simply staying high and fast all of the time in the MA because this seems to be the "best approach", instead of learning valuable defense tactics and understanding what a slower plane's fighting style is capable of (such as reverse tactics) in a MA full of BnZers 190Ds and p51Ds
I agree, there are few I encounter that know how to spell "reverse", much less get one.
A couple of weeks ago I got into a 2 minute rolling scissors against a B-Pony in my 47M. I have to say I was sweating it out the entire time, it ended with both of us stalling and augering. THAT is why I play this game.
Agree 100%.
Man...I've agreed twice now with Papa AK. :noid
:D
Afterall, I am agree-a-Bill. Ya miss me don't ya?
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BUT there are those people who won't fly anything besides ONE plane
thats not always a bad thing.. :old:
:)
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thats not always a bad thing.. :old:
:)
Ruh row...Blu is back!
You are my boy, Blu! :D
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Ruh row...Blu is back!
You are my boy, Blu! :D
howdy fulcrum! :rock
:salute
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I tend to agree. The one size fits all deck merge is a contest of who is well practiced at deck merges. While it is the easiest way to create an equal start, it doesn't offer any depth to the conflict that would shake out all that a pilot has to offer. I've been severely trounced in the DA, over and over again, in deck merges, against pilots I have beaten in the MA, even when starting at a disadvantage there.
If you can picture a factorial matrix of starting position, e state, plane match-up, and the mystery factor of not really knowing who you are up against, the Ma offers endless possibilities. There are many different, yet "equal" starting points in that matrix, but the DA only uses the same one over and over and over, so those who practice it over and over can master that one scenario and seem invincible.
So it's a good measure, but a flawed one. :salute
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MA is not really harder, MA is more annoying if anything.
More than half the pilots in the MA will run at the first sight of losing a fight, in the DA it is understood that you won't run and you will use ACM (in most cases) to get out of your hole.
Agreed . The Da is one of best places to learn ACM.
You can learn about dive bombing and about squad tatics in the MA
But till you have a itimate knowledge of ACMs and of how your plane handles you will never really be excellent.
I have to go with bluberry and Midway on the point that learning one plane and flying it is the one of the best ways to sucess. You can not be a excellent pilot if you fly mutiple planes all the time. If Midway can kick you but in a Spit than that is your bad. Just because he is only good in one plane doesnt make him someone you can thumb your nose at. I will venture to say that you are one of the JACK OF ALL PLANE BUT MASTER OF NONE.
If he pawns you in if your uber ride in real life you be dead.
On the other hand it is good to be proficient in one or two more plane. But not in a half a dozen.
Going to the Da will help be become a Master of ACM and of SA if you fly in the Furball area.
:salute My thoughts on the Matter
LtCondor :salute :salute
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When I flew with Top Gun I used to DA with the guys all the time. Not to put too finer point on it, our squad name definitely suited our skill level, but that was due to the "no-life" amount of practice we put in.
DA made us better knife fighters that is for sure, however did it make us better combat pilots as a whole? Not really, our wing-man and "One man air-force" tactics are what got us the kills in the MA. That combined with the sheer amount of experience we had in both flying and fighting different aircraft.
Practice in the DA, like everyone says, is training... MA is where the true fighter pilots show themselves. And to be honest, I prefer fighting to the last round, last drop of fuel and to the last kill unless the odds are just suicidal.
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I tend to agree. The one size fits all deck merge is a contest of who is well practiced at deck merges. While it is the easiest way to create an equal start, it doesn't offer any depth to the conflict that would shake out all that a pilot has to offer. I've been severely trounced in the DA, over and over again, in deck merges, against pilots I have beaten in the MA, even when starting at a disadvantage there.
If you can picture a factorial matrix of starting position, e state, plane match-up, and the mystery factor of not really knowing who you are up against, the Ma offers endless possibilities. There are many different, yet "equal" starting points in that matrix, but the DA only uses the same one over and over and over, so those who practice it over and over can master that one scenario and seem invincible.
So it's a good measure, but a flawed one. :salute
6-8 people 2 fields , multiple plane types , rolling 1-1 on fights , multiple e -states, Many fights per hour., that's a useful learning experience , lot of fun too. Try it with some squaddies you might be pleasantly surprised
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Agreed . The Da is one of best places to learn ACM.
You can learn about dive bombing and about squad tatics in the MA
But till you have a itimate knowledge of ACMs and of how your plane handles you will never really be excellent.
I have to go with bluberry and Midway on the point that learning one plane and flying it is the one of the best ways to sucess. You can not be a excellent pilot if you fly mutiple planes all the time. If Midway can kick you but in a Spit than that is your bad. Just because he is only good in one plane doesnt make him someone you can thumb your nose at. I will venture to say that you are one of the JACK OF ALL PLANE BUT MASTER OF NONE.
If he pawns you in if your uber ride in real life you be dead.
On the other hand it is good to be proficient in one or two more plane. But not in a half a dozen.
Going to the Da will help be become a Master of ACM and of SA if you fly in the Furball area.
:salute My thoughts on the Matter
LtCondor :salute :salute
Let me make sure I have this right.
You saying you can only really be good 1v1 if you fly in one or two planes max? And it's best you only fly one, like Midway. Do I have that right?
How long have you been playing?
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When I flew with Top Gun I used to DA with the guys all the time. Not to put too finer point on it, our squad name definitely suited our skill level, but that was due to the "no-life" amount of practice we put in.
DA made us better knife fighters that is for sure, however did it make us better combat pilots as a whole? Not really, our wing-man and "One man air-force" tactics are what got us the kills in the MA. That combined with the sheer amount of experience we had in both flying and fighting different aircraft.
Practice in the DA, like everyone says, is training... MA is where the true fighter pilots show themselves. And to be honest, I prefer fighting to the last round, last drop of fuel and to the last kill unless the odds are just suicidal.
But, it's when the odds are suicidal that the most fun can be had! :x ;)
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But, it's when the odds are suicidal that the most fun can be had! :x ;)
That's only because you are insane, Latrobe. :D :aok
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Let me make sure I have this right.
You saying you can only really be good 1v1 if you fly in one or two planes max? And it's best you only fly one, like Midway. Do I have that right?
How long have you been playing?
Have you ever flown in the furball part.. 5 v1 , 4v1 are common when I am in there. Many more fights then in the MA. I mean committed fights. So many times in the MA I find that people will run if you get on there six. Da you are committed to the death. I fly 109k4 109f and P-51
On rare occasions I will get in a spit or other bird to get a achievemnt in the Ma
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Have you ever flown in the furball part.. 5 v1 , 4v1 are common when I am in there. Many more fights then in the MA. I mean committed fights. So many times in the MA I find that people will run if you get on there six. Da you are committed to the death. I fly 109k4 109f and P-51
I fly a plane that can't run....every mission's a suicide mission. I'm certain that's me and not the plane, however... :bhead
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Have you ever flown in the furball part.. 5 v1 , 4v1 are common when I am in there. Many more fights then in the MA. I mean committed fights. So many times in the MA I find that people will run if you get on there six. Da you are committed to the death. I fly 109k4 109f and P-51
On rare occasions I will get in a spit or other bird to get a achievemnt in the Ma
Yep, I have. So what does that have to do with only being "good" if you fly one plane?
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Let me make sure I have this right.
You saying you can only really be good 1v1 if you fly in one or two planes max? And it's best you only fly one, like Midway. Do I have that right?
How long have you been playing?
I don't think he is saying that you have to fly 1 plane to be good. I think his point is more that if you fly 1 plane exclusively for awhile it is a great way to learn fundamentals faster, compared to changing planes every sortie. We all learn differently though, so for some maybe changing planes often is more helpful. I tend to fly the same plane every single sortie because I am in love with it. To the OP's question, I think the MA is more challenging then the DA, but both are fun.
-BluBerry
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But how do you rate who is good in the MA?? I mean foreal, I guarantee the all of the sticks you mention are probably really damn good in the DA.
There are people like rocky and messiah who are great pickers in the MA but most likely will have a hard time in the DA especially in different planes.
Many of the great sticks of AH don't care for rank,,, don't care about running away from a 1 v 1, don't care about climbing to 45k to avoid being picked.
Take changeup and skyrock for example... both really awesome sticks and they will kill you 9/10 times in the MA, but they dont play for score or K/D, and they do not run from fights. they will also kill you in almost any plane in the DA 1 v 1.
and btw wpeters, planes come with experience, and preference of fighting styles.
I fly the 109 a lot because it is a tough plane to learn all around, can furball with the best of em, love the stall, turns average but gets people who aren't prepared, is decently fast, and it fits my type of play style. However, I've started flying the p47m a lot, the ki84 is great for defense, the F4u is just a fun bird to fly all around, spits are fun but too easy (no challenge) for me, La7 is a joy.
what I am saying is these planes can be used for different types of styles in different types of scenarios. If you are at a base that is being heavily attacked far from friendly bases, you wouldn't want to up a p38.... try upping a ki84 or la7... you will most likely get at least 2 or 3 kills.
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I don't think he is saying that you have to fly 1 plane to be good. I think his point is more that if you fly 1 plane exclusively for awhile it is a great way to learn fundamentals faster, compared to changing planes every sortie.
Now this I can agree with...but his statement didn't seem to be this so much as supporting Middrift's statement which, quite frankly, is nothing but a cover for his several failed attempts to fly something other than a Spit8.
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But how do you rate who is good in the MA??
People build a reputation in the MA, just like you mentioned changeup and skyrock. I can't remember the last time I fought them, but people know they are good sticks from them being part of the MA community and people encountering them. Skill level means nothing if your just a total dick. A big part of "who is good" in the MA for me, is attitude. Poor sports don't get good reputations. You can be an average stick, but if you are fun to fly with or chat with skill level really doesn't matter, your good in my book. :salute
-BluBerry
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howdy fulcrum! :rock
:salute
:salute sir.
Glad to see JG5 getting the band back together. :D
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:salute sir.
Glad to see JG5 getting the band back together. :D
Yeah me too. :cheers:
Fly with us sometime!
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Always preferred the spontaneity and improvisation of the MA
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Yeah me too. :cheers:
Fly with us sometime!
Sure! Always love flying the 152 or other German iron. I'm not on as much now but I'll ping ya if I see ya.
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6-8 people 2 fields , multiple plane types , rolling 1-1 on fights , multiple e -states, Many fights per hour., that's a useful learning experience , lot of fun too. Try it with some squaddies you might be pleasantly surprised
Totally agree :aok
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Both the MA and the DA will allow you to push to extreme limits but in different ways.
I've played for score and rank in the past and for the most part it's easy to do. A highly ranked MA player isn't nessesarily a great pilot. He simply uses the rules of score/rank to his greatest advantage. A great DA pilot is a great pilot period. He can't run or even extend except minimally to attempt a reset but he might suck in the MA depending on his gaming style. I've seen many many highly ranked MA pilots over the years who are literally afraid of a DA challenge because they know the truth.
In the MA SA is as important, if not more so, than pilot skill. I don't play for score or rank anymore and spend the vast majority of my flight time fighting where the Bish have the worst odds and I generally do that in early to mid war planes. My score sucks so am I that much worse than I used to be? No, because it's harder to fight and live against ten or fifteen guys than it is against two or three. Instead of being in the DA working on my ACM I'm instead in the MA working on my SA and my ACM secondarily. You'll never see a highly ranked player play that way.
I've called players out to the DA and been called out to the DA and rarely if ever lost. What started out as contentious disputes generally ended with us leaving the DA as new friends. If you pass up those opportunities you pass up the chance to meet good people and possibly make new friends.
Both have their place in the game and each allows you to push the limits if you care to. Each will well prepare you for other aspects of the game (scenarios, snapshots, etc.) but using all the tools available to you will prepare you the best. I've been in several scenarios in the past few years and have amazed myself at my ability to kill and not be killed against bad odds in disadvantaged aircraft and/or disadvantaged positions or both. I attribute that to what I've learned in the DA and what I've learned in the MA and don't think I'd be where I am without both, although I have a long way to go to be where I want to be.
I highly encourage anyone who doesn't regularily DA to enter the next dueling tournament. It's generally a friendly, adrenalin pumping good time and you'll quickly learn how well you adapt to and push the limits of various aircraft. No one's asking you to stop playing in the MA or to change your preferred fighting style but if you're truly interested in improving give it a try. The current plan is to start after the holidays and in a double elimination format again.
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When is the next dueling Tournement
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When is the next dueling Tournement
Probably start in mid-January with sign-ups starting right after the first but that's subject to change by a week or two either way.
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Looking forward to it. Maybe get slightly farther this year than last but we will see.
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DA tactics.
The point of the DA is to have a fair 1 v 1 fight. Same alt, same plane, same gas, same ammo load out. The reason why so many people call out pilots in the MA to fight in the DA is because IMO the actual skill of fighting, acm knowledge, and plane knowledge is accurately depicted in a 1 v 1 fight. The general amount of pilots in the MA can BnZ and pick easy kills and run away all day long. But do these players have what it takes to actually win fights 1 v 1 when the conditions are the same. The general amount of new players believe that the DA is a ground and pound, slowest wins, who can our turn the other guy. However, the DA is perfect for learning all of the styles. You do not have to turn n burn every fight, if you know how to use E correctly in the same planes you can eventually BnZ them (ask EACE). the DA helps you learn how the planes actually fly. It helps you learn how to aim, it helps you learn how to manage E, and stalls, It helps you learn how to use the plane to its full potential, it helps you learn how to use reverse tactics, and helps you learn how to use your views correctly. The only thing you cannot do in the DA is run/HO. So this is why a lot of players challenge others to the DA, they want to see if they player actually knows more skills other than running away or HOing every chance when they lose advantage. I love going to the DA because believe it or not, it will make you 10X a better MA pilot. I have flown and fought against many of the best sticks in AH in the DA, believe me, i had my fair share of getting PWNed. But I learned from them through flying in the DA and learning real ACM, and throttle control. Now in the MA I know how to handle most situations given my E and their E, how to out maneuver them and how to gain the advantage, all from fighting top sticks in the DA 1 v 1. I think most of the MA sticks who do not fight in the DA, do not have half as much ACM skill or ability to win fights without an advantage. If your only style is BnZ and you do not ever learn ACM or reverse tactics. You are kidding yourself if you think you are a top AH stick.
Well said :aok
Main reason i fly the DA is because of the time it takes to get a fight and i am looking for fights not kills and score. The more I fight and see the situation the better i get its like practice practice practice. Ask anyone that fly's DA, i fly all the planes and have 90% of them 90% down and work on new planes all the time. When i know how to fly a plane and i see you in that plane i also know all its tricks and capabilities and find them easier to kill. When i go to the MA i just isolate my targets (which is an SA also) and find that most are not that hard to beat if they fight and don't run. See in the MA you try and stay alive most of the time in the DA i fly till i die most of the time and get so much more stick time. If I flew the MA it would be for score and not to die which would take forever. SA is not just while your flying it is also picking where to fly before you even take off and if you have all around good SA you should really be landing 20 kills at a time and never re plane till you log off. main reson is it just takes to much time for me in the MA to be fun for me :D
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The DA lake is just a mini MA really. The dueling areas are different, especially in designed duels. The MA needs the skills of the duelist when SA fails and he becomes outnumbered. Alot of dueling style tactics, especially on the deck, getting the quick kill, so he can move on to the next guy or get out of Dodge. The DA needs the patience of the MA, if he seriously wants to rack up a better ranking, rather than killing a bunch and dying each run. I used to do quite well 1v1 dueling, but now do better MA style. I still bite off more than I can chew but I have gain a little more patience(sp) over the years.
The guy who is better is the one who can play both ways well. A guy who always wants alt and speed will likely live longer,but doesnt challenge himself much. You rarely see someone say nice pik! and mean it seriously. You do see a guy in a 3 on 1 and kill all the enemies in a knife fight and few would deny that guy a wtg!
2 worlds
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Having an alt advantage does not mean you own....flying a spit 8 against a 109 does not mean you pwn
Dont do it.
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flying a 109 and doing a 1 trick overshoot manoeuvre equally does not mean you own.
Then using it as an excuse when you stall and crash it into the ground.
ALL planes can perform excellent ACM whether it be spitfire or 109 or A20.
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flying a 109 and doing a 1 trick overshoot manoeuvre equally does not mean you own.
Then using it as an excuse when you stall and crash it into the ground.
ALL planes can perform excellent ACM whether it be spitfire or 109 or A20.
ACM does not = Altitude
And of course the Spitfire can perform excellent ACM, it's so insanely easy to fly in this game that even a two day old pilot can seem like he knows what he's doing.
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ACM does not = Altitude
And of course the Spitfire can perform excellent ACM, it's so insanely easy to fly in this game that even a two day old pilot can seem like he knows what he's doing.
The spit aint as easy :old:
When i was hopping into one, i wasnt feeling invincible :old:
I was like the untouchable god of turnfight :old: :lol I could do anything and won, even though im absolutely inexperienced in that easy mode training wheel ride.
Try turning in a 190 instead of vulching in it, then talk about being one-trick :aok
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There is nothing to stop anyone from having random alt/plane/numbers fights in the DA. If all you do in the DA is setup equal fights then you are to blame for the lack of variety, not the arena itself. The only differences between the MA and the DA is that in the DA you usually know who you are fighting and you know that they will fight to the death. Victory or death in the DA as compared to victory or run home in the MA. When there is no option to retreat people fight harder. The cornered animal syndrome. Both places are fun.
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flying a 109 and doing a 1 trick overshoot manoeuvre equally does not mean you own.
Then using it as an excuse when you stall and crash it into the ground.
ALL planes can perform excellent ACM whether it be spitfire or 109 or A20.
Yes but even you can't say the spit isn't easier to perform ACM in....
What 1 trick are you talking about and who's doing it? Always like learning different ACM
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I suppose that after 12 years, and a sizable portion of that as a trainer, I have a pretty good overview of the MA vs the DA argument.
First, I will state this. The better 1v1 pilots are often the better MA pilots. You run into a guy with top level plane handling and ACM skills, along with great SA and you will get owned. The best 1v1 pilots don't limit themselves to dueling in identical aircraft. It's far better to duel in dissimilar aircraft. This is the best way to learn how to fight anything while flying anything. The best place to do this type of dueling is not necessarily the DA. I believe that the TA is better, simply because you don't waste time re-planing. You just break off and re-merge for another go at it. Someone makes a mistake, and there's not 10 minutes wasted for the next fight (unless there's a auger).
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WW,
i think, the same plane duels are essential in that case if you and your friend both would like to master the given aircraft's stall characteristics to the cartoon physical limits. Different plane duels are only useful when both planes have an advantage over the other, like a spit16 vs a ki84. I have always liked that matchup since its great for learning to force your own fight on your opponent.
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I suppose that after 12 years, and a sizable portion of that as a trainer, I have a pretty good overview of the MA vs the DA argument.
First, I will state this. The better 1v1 pilots are often the better MA pilots. You run into a guy with top level plane handling and ACM skills, along with great SA and you will get owned. The best 1v1 pilots don't limit themselves to dueling in identical aircraft. It's far better to duel in dissimilar aircraft. This is the best way to learn how to fight anything while flying anything. The best place to do this type of dueling is not necessarily the DA. I believe that the TA is better, simply because you don't waste time re-planing. You just break off and re-merge for another go at it. Someone makes a mistake, and there's not 10 minutes wasted for the next fight (unless there's a auger).
I think we have a winner, well said :aok
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I suppose that after 12 years, and a sizable portion of that as a trainer, I have a pretty good overview of the MA vs the DA argument.
First, I will state this. The better 1v1 pilots are often the better MA pilots. You run into a guy with top level plane handling and ACM skills, along with great SA and you will get owned. The best 1v1 pilots don't limit themselves to dueling in identical aircraft. It's far better to duel in dissimilar aircraft. This is the best way to learn how to fight anything while flying anything. The best place to do this type of dueling is not necessarily the DA. I believe that the TA is better, simply because you don't waste time re-planing. You just break off and re-merge for another go at it. Someone makes a mistake, and there's not 10 minutes wasted for the next fight (unless there's a auger).
Quoted for truth and sensibility.
And your views on enabling F3 in the DA? Is it necessary? Does it assist in long term skill development in your opinion?
As for the ongoing Spit debate? They only complain when they’re dead. If “German Iron” is that much of a challenge, work harder and slaughter more.