Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: SlidingHorn on November 22, 2013, 12:43:36 PM
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I've read a lot on here and elsewhere talking about how "outclassed" the A6Ms are compared to most of the mid-late war planes. I get that most of what they're talking about is power and durability. However, as someone who's barely outside their 2-week period, I've been flying it a lot lately, and have been more successful in it than any of the so-called "starter planes" I've tried.
So long as one remembers the limitations of the plane and doesn't try to chase anyone out of a turn fight, it's a very dangerous bird w/ the right pilot, IMHO.
So far, I've been frustrated with those that know to not knife fight and to consistently extend (which, surprisingly, isn't that many people...) and try to get me to chase. Don't get me wrong, it's the smart move on their part, but it does make a man feel lonely watching people flee from him (do I smell funny? :lol).
What are some "trade (not-quite) secrets" you use to bait an enemy who might otherwise run into sticking around and duking it out with you?
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You are exactly right. You take the plane's best attributes and play those cards close to the vest. If a A6M has bested me I best use my planes stellar attributes and try to reset the fight back to my advantage. If you like the A6M, you might find the Ki more durable.
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A6Ms are fun. My only sortie to rack up more than 8 kills was a 12 kill sortie in an A6M5b.
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To get someone to turn back for you just make a slow turn as if you're breaking off of them. Wait 1 or 2 seconds and then turn back towards them. Most of the time you'll find your opponent turning around you for and you can maybe get in a crossing shot on them. Some people even fall for this trick more than once in one fight! :devil
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Slow play them.
Don't immediately jump on their 6 in 2 turns. Make them think you're stupid and they're getting the angle to get them to fully commit. Once they've committed, their arse is yours. The trouble with this of course, is knowing how much leg to show before taking it back. Show too much leg and you'll get it shot off. :)
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If you like the A6M, you might find the Ki more durable.
Interesting. I'll have to dig up some comparisons on Dr Gonzo's generator, etc. and see how they match up...
A6Ms are fun. My only sortie to rack up more than 8 kills was a 12 kill sortie in an A6M5b.
I've been sticking mostly to the 32 - I like the turns better than the 5, and the payload better than the 2
To get someone to turn back for you just make a slow turn as if you're breaking off of them. Wait 1 or 2 seconds and then turn back towards them. Most of the time you'll find your opponent turning around you for and you can maybe get in a crossing shot on them. Some people even fall for this trick more than once in one fight! :devil
That's not far off from what I've been doing: Act like I'm giving chase to give them a sense of "OMG He's gonna bite," regain some alt if I lost any in the 1st pass, and very slowly turn away. Some come back, others think better of it & keep going ;)
Don't immediately jump on their 6 in 2 turns. Make them think you're stupid and they're getting the angle to get them to fully commit. Once they've committed, their arse is yours. The trouble with this of course, is knowing how much leg to show before taking it back. Show too much leg and you'll get it shot off.
This sounds like a hell of an idea - sounds like it'd take quite a bit of practice to make it convincing without getting one's self into trouble, but practice is something I'm not one to shy away from...
:salute Gentlemen!
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Triton's really go the key to it. You need to show them a fat, tempting target (Zeros are slow and burst into flames if you look at them funny, so you're halfway there just by being a Zero). Anyone who knows how to fight a Zero will make small corrections on their attack pass, but will break off to reset before the point of overcommitting. You need to turn JUST enough that they can't get the shot, but not so much that they recognize it, so they commit a little bit more, and a little bit more, until you've got them completely suckered in. It may take a couple passes, but if you do it right your opponent will completely blow his E and you've got him.
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One thing I have noticed is that a lot of folks seem to underestimate the Zero's zoom climb. Don't know how many times someone would try to rope me, only to make themselves such a nice, fat, sitting duck. All in all, I just love how the A6M3 handles. Not the fastest, but oh so graceful in maneuverability. :aok
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The A6M3 is my favorite.
Let said uber ride start out diving on you six, start a 30 degree flat turn to your left and increase your turn rate as the bandit pass the D-1000 mark, when they start to shoot pull nose up and roll back into them. Repeat until you get your shot. Takes some practice, but once you get it down it can frustrate them till they slow down or run. Either way, you control the airspace.....Zeke win :cheers:
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I too like the A6M3, it does everything the '5 does in a knife fight with exception to having a superior roll rate.
The trick with either the '3 or '5 is to keep the speeds UNDER 350 TAS, once you get above that you're pushing the limits of the plane and the controls are out of their realm. But, keep it between 200 and 300 and either model should make short work of any other fighter. Thing is though, many players will recognize the fact that their butt is about to be handed to them and they will "extend" out, which is a very valid response. You, as a zeke player, can't let that happen. Grab a hold and hang on!
Seriously though, I suggest trying the A6M3 but use the roll to your advantage, and then try the Ki-84 "Frank". While it cant turn as well it is faster, has a better climb rate, rolls very well, and can handle more damage than any of the zekes.
Good luck and have fun! :aok
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When I run into a Zeke at alt, I say, "gosh, I hope this guy doesn't know what he's doing!" Zeke is a fine bird when flown for its strengths.
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I filmed this fight a while back, I think the film will still work in the film viewer but there may be some bugs.
I ran into Flatiron in the MW arena a while back, and we had a 38G vs A6M5 duel. He did a very good job of denying me the perch which was what I needed to be able to control the fight, there are some good lessons in watching how he handles the merges. I think the goal of a A6M driver vs a faster opponent would be to open with Energy oriented tactics to deny the other player the high ground and maybe even get him to bleed energy trying to gain position. Once you're opponent is slow you should be able to control the fight unless there is enough altitude for him to dive out and extend. This is actually what happens here, I think Flatiron did a great job but in the end the better speed of the 38 let me control when to engage and disengage, eventually I was able to get him to follow me in a downward spiral where the speed increased till we got to a point where I had a temporary advantage in maneuverability and I was lucky to make the shot.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/n0w2ldzv6htus3b/goodfightvsa6m_1222.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/n0w2ldzv6htus3b/goodfightvsa6m_1222.ahf)
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The great thing about the Zekes is that they're used in a lot of scenarios yet rarely flown outside of them. So when you get good, you'll be able to get a lot of high profile kills in special events, which is always fun.
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I mostly ignore Zekes, F4Fs, Brews... Really, in a furball they just a white noise. Unless it on my 6 at 300 yards and shooting you can just ignore him.
And if it is on your 6, just a little dive or just flying straight and they aren't threat any more...
Just a white noise.
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get in the Ki84.....zeros are torches that need a sneeze to start....
yup great turner....but it takes a lot more then "turning" in the MA to be effective.
or if you really like the turning, get into a Hurri2C, turns almost as well....is much tougher, and has an amazing gun platform.....after you get sick of everyone running away....jump into the Ki84 :D
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One thing I have noticed is that a lot of folks seem to underestimate the Zero's zoom climb. Don't know how many times someone would try to rope me, only to make themselves such a nice, fat, sitting duck. All in all, I just love how the A6M3 handles. Not the fastest, but oh so graceful in maneuverability. :aok
Below 2K the A6m3 has a very good climb rate...I used to enjoy killing those who like to rope a bit too much.
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The Zeke isn't much of a diver - too light. So, I dive. The 5 zeke can actually dive to higher speeds than most realize. Come in fast from above and you'll really confuse your opponent. He'll be used to Zekes low and slow and turning. If you dive on him, he probably won't have the speed to out-run you. He'll probably panic and start to turn hard. That's when you chop your throttle and become a turny zeke again. You'll win. If he dives away from you, then he knows what he's doing. In that event, you're probably best breaking off and re-gaining your perch.
One thing I've learned not to do in a zeke is press on alone towards an enemy base. I've found the zeke to be at its best high over a friendly base that is under attack. That's when you'll be able to "boom and turn" with support from your mates.
When choosing your variety of zeke remember that the -2 is the most maneuverable, the -3 can roll like a 190, and the -5 replaces one of the .30 caliber guns in the nose with a .50 caliber. That makes a great deal of difference in a close turning fight when the only guns you can get on target are in the nose. The -5 dives better and is a bit faster than the other two but is slightly less maneuverable.
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The Zeke isn't much of a diver - too light. So, I dive. The 5 zeke can actually dive to higher speeds than most realize. Come in fast from above and you'll really confuse your opponent. He'll be used to Zekes low and slow and turning. If you dive on him, he probably won't have the speed to out-run you. He'll probably panic and start to turn hard. That's when you chop your throttle and become a turny zeke again. You'll win. If he dives away from you, then he knows what he's doing. In that event, you're probably best breaking off and re-gaining your perch.
One thing I've learned not to do in a zeke is press on alone towards an enemy base. I've found the zeke to be at its best high over a friendly base that is under attack. That's when you'll be able to "boom and turn" with support from your mates.
When choosing your variety of zeke remember that the -2 is the most maneuverable, the -3 can roll like a 190, and the -5 replaces one of the .30 caliber guns in the nose with a .50 caliber. That makes a great deal of difference in a close turning fight when the only guns you can get on target are in the nose. The -5 dives better and is a bit faster than the other two but is slightly less maneuverable.
except anybody worth his salt will recognize a hi speed zero ....and most any plane that is slower will actually turn tighter while the zeke is a pig turning at high speed......while a 51 is awesome turning at high speed.....
a zero is one of the easiest planes to kill simply by the fact it burns so easy, if you want to be competitive in the MA the zero is not the plane to fly.....although there is always just flying in a gang of green guys and relying on others to get them distracted.....but then that don't teach you how to actually fight.....
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The Zeke 5 also has the Type2 20mm cannons that offer a bigger punch than the Zeke2 or Zeke3 cannons.
The Zeke3 still rocks though :rock
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except anybody worth his salt will recognize a hi speed zero ....and most any plane that is slower will actually turn tighter while the zeke is a pig turning at high speed......while a 51 is awesome turning at high speed.....
a zero is one of the easiest planes to kill simply by the fact it burns so easy, if you want to be competitive in the MA the zero is not the plane to fly.....although there is always just flying in a gang of green guys and relying on others to get them distracted.....but then that don't teach you how to actually fight.....
Could've sworn there was a pilot or two that made the Zero competitive. :headscratch:
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They don't burn as readily as some are suggesting. Depends on where you get hit, but assuming that any hit will ignite one is sloppy and can lead one to take poor odds shots and blowing position, then dying to the A6M that has a couple of bullet holes and no other damage.
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They don't burn as readily as some are suggesting. Depends on where you get hit, but assuming that any hit will ignite one is sloppy and can lead one to take poor odds shots and blowing position, then dying to the A6M that has a couple of bullet holes and no other damage.
one good burst and the thing lights up.....it is extremely easy to put it on fire, as you well know.
Could've sworn there was a pilot or two that made the Zero competitive. :headscratch:
in the MA its not competitive at all, I don't care who is flying it......
the ones that gets lots of kills in one...I guarantee they are flying with a bunch of green guys and kill those who are engaged...slow from being engaged.....or upping.
it is what it is, the zero is more often then not just a target.....a zero with lots of ALT is more dangerous and even more so with a guy who knows how to fight at the helm.....(but that goes for just about any plane)
if you like turn and burn fighting.....there is no better plane then the Hurri2C.....the problem with that is the speed is so bad just about everything can just nose down and get away......
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the ones that gets lots of kills in one...I guarantee they are flying with a bunch of green guys and kill those who are engaged...slow from being engaged.....or upping.
Twelve kills landed. No vultches or kills of uppers within 5 minutes of them upping. Outnumbered, me vs the enemy for most of the fight. A6M5b.
The A6M5 is faster than your Hurricane Mk IIc and is more agile, has better visibility and much better acceleration/climb. The Hurri has better high speed handling, firepower and durability.
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the zero is much like the spitfire a true mans plane. Sakai's book is one of the favourites in my collection.
You can't run, you can't hide, you just have to fly for your life. The ki-84 is a bit like the 109k4 in this context it can just use it's powerful engine and just out-climb everything, a boring way to win a fight IMO.
:salute
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Twelve kills landed. No vultches or kills of uppers within 5 minutes of them upping. Outnumbered, me vs the enemy for most of the fight. A6M5b.
The A6M5 is faster than your Hurricane Mk IIc and is more agile, has better visibility and much better acceleration/climb. The Hurri has better high speed handling, firepower and durability.
every squirrel gets a nut once in awhile :D
any plane in the right hands is going to be dangerous.....
but come one guys lets face it....zero is anything but a deadly plane.
I flew it for awhile exclusively....been called a cheater in it a few times.....its downfall of being so fragile ruins it....
the fire power and durability of the Hurri far out weighs the aspects of the zero, that are better.... because of the problem it has getting put on fire....
the zero is much like the spitfire a true mans plane. Sakai's book is one of the favourites in my collection.
You can't run, you can't hide, you just have to fly for your life. The ki-84 is a bit like the 109k4 in this context it can just use it's powerful engine and just out-climb everything, a boring way to win a fight IMO.
:salute
the fact that you think the spit is not anything but the easiest plane to fly is laughable...so anything you have to say on the subject is just that...laughable. :aok
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Sorry Ink. I personally think the zeke is a blast...primarily because you can't run, a single ping can potentially turn the plane into a bunsen burner, etc i.e. it's challenging to fly, get kills, not die and land said kills.
It's not deadly in the strict sense like a ki84, K4 or Spit can be....but it sure can make you pay if you play it's game. :D
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Sorry Ink. I personally think the zeke is a blast...primarily because you can't run, a single ping can potentially turn the plane into a bunsen burner, etc i.e. it's challenging to fly, get kills, not die and land said kills.
It's not deadly in the strict sense like a ki84, K4 or Spit can be....but it sure can make you pay if you play it's game. :D
I didn't say it couldn't be fun.... :aok
I said its not competitive/effective by itself in the typical MA environment
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I didn't say it couldn't be fun.... :aok
I said its not competitive/effective by itself in the typical MA environment
By itself, no...but it is a blast. Also feels like a accomplishment when you land kills in one.
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if you like turn and burn fighting.....there is no better plane then the Hurri2C.....
IIC is a pig.
The Hurri I. Now there's a turn & burn plane.
- oldman
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IIC is a pig.
The Hurri I. Now there's a turn & burn plane.
- oldman
it is different since the update for sure
By itself, no...but it is a blast. Also feels like a accomplishment when you land kills in one.
I remember fighting like 15 cons in one :rofl friggen hilarious.....they couldn't get me at all...went for what seemed like an hour, finely got me, of course someone had to call cheat...another guy said, all he saw was hard rudder use :rofl :rofl :rofl
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I remember fighting like 15 cons in one :rofl friggen hilarious.....they couldn't get me at all...went for what seemed like an hour, finely got me, of course someone had to call cheat...another guy said, all he saw was hard rudder use :rofl :rofl :rofl
The slow turny planes are more survivable in a gang bang than the speedy planes. Speed will not help you if they got you slow enough to force you to maneuver. In the high wingloaded planes, if you are defeated - you are defeated. In a low wingloaded plane you can still go nuts and spoil the shot for the one behind you, but you will never get away from him unless you kill him or he runs out of ammo.
On the opposing force, the art of gang does require a tiny bit of skill. It drives me nuts as I circle above and see 5 greenies fly around a red plane for minutes unable to kill it. So I dive down and put it out of its misery, provided I do not collide with him...
This is how it works:
Usually, the whole gang race each other for the kill, all get in behind the zeke and all get denied by a single break turn. Rinse & repeat. A smarter pilot watches and time his attack from a different direction - He should come at the zeke with lots of speed from the front quarter and time it to reach the zeke after the gang has made their attack. Timing is done by placing the zeke at an angle off the nose to delay the attack by a few seconds if needed, then a quick roll & jink to place him in the gunsight. The break turn will expose the zeke's belly and he is completely blind to the attacker, especially since he is busy laughing and watching those behind fall outside his turn. If he continues the turn (all likelihood), the attacker will get a belly shot, a dead 6 shot and then a top plane shot. Usually at least 2 out of the 3 depending on his timing. The turny planes are usually not fast enough in the roll to confuse such an attacker even if they could see him through the belly or extrapolate his course from the last time they saw him.
Some turny planes like to make a 90 degree break turn and then go up and roll after their previous attackers. This will still give the attacker described above enough time to figure out the move, pull a vertical lead and blast the zeke. If the timing was right, the attacker will catch the zeke during the roll in the vertical, when the zeke exposes its full plane to be shot.
Be smart and beat the gang to their prey :t
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I find the most difficult planes to fight against when they are defensive are the Brewsters. They seem to have a very fast roll rate (is that accurate historically?) and take a lot of punishment. I had several times in which I flew through, covering them with hit sprites (20 mm) only to come out the other side and find them flying after me with all important pieces still attached. I thought ours were supposed to be the Finn Brewsters with no armor. How they survive a point-blanc mosquito quad 20mm volley is beyond me. Once would be a glitch, but I consistently find them more durable than most planes. Must be made from the same no-armor material as the Yak-3s.
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The slow turny planes are more survivable in a gang bang than the speedy planes. Speed will not help you if they got you slow enough to force you to maneuver. In the high wingloaded planes, if you are defeated - you are defeated. In a low wingloaded plane you can still go nuts and spoil the shot for the one behind you, but you will never get away from him unless you kill him or he runs out of ammo.
On the opposing force, the art of gang does require a tiny bit of skill. It drives me nuts as I circle above and see 5 greenies fly around a red plane for minutes unable to kill it. So I dive down and put it out of its misery, provided I do not collide with him...
This is how it works:
Usually, the whole gang race each other for the kill, all get in behind the zeke and all get denied by a single break turn. Rinse & repeat. A smarter pilot watches and time his attack from a different direction - He should come at the zeke with lots of speed from the front quarter and time it to reach the zeke after the gang has made their attack. Timing is done by placing the zeke at an angle off the nose to delay the attack by a few seconds if needed, then a quick roll & jink to place him in the gunsight. The break turn will expose the zeke's belly and he is completely blind to the attacker, especially since he is busy laughing and watching those behind fall outside his turn. If he continues the turn (all likelihood), the attacker will get a belly shot, a dead 6 shot and then a top plane shot. Usually at least 2 out of the 3 depending on his timing. The turny planes are usually not fast enough in the roll to confuse such an attacker even if they could see him through the belly or extrapolate his course from the last time they saw him.
Some turny planes like to make a 90 degree break turn and then go up and roll after their previous attackers. This will still give the attacker described above enough time to figure out the move, pull a vertical lead and blast the zeke. If the timing was right, the attacker will catch the zeke during the roll in the vertical, when the zeke exposes its full plane to be shot.
Be smart and beat the gang to their prey :t
sorry bud you lost me at..."The slow turny planes are more survivable in a gang bang than the speedy planes"
which is completely incorrect.
if that were the case, then they would have been making even more "turnier" planes as the war progressed....but no thats not the case....speed=life....simple as that, to think otherwise is silly.
and I try very hard NOT to fly with the gang. :aok
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No, they made the planes faster in order to avoid the gang altogether. However, if you do get caught and can't dive away, a Zeke has a better chance than a p51 in one vs many.
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Slidinghorn is just outside of being a 2-weeker?! Awesome newby discussion!! (Need more "newbs" like this.)
One of my all-time heros is Capt David McCampbell. In his famous book "McCampbell's heros" where he discusses the story of Fabled 15 off of the USS Essex, where he got his kills to include 9 in one sortie, he describes the most amazing encounter.
On one occassion, somewhere in 1944 after the Turkey Shoot (if I remember correctly) a division of Hellcats (he was not among them) came across a single, early version Zero. The 4-F6Fs pounced and after a long dance, not a single bullet hole in the zero. They run out of gas and time and the zero flys home. They note that it must have been flown by one of the remaining true old school vets left in the Japanese war machine.
Clearly the Zero handled properly is a major threat to mid- and late-war birds. Just has to be flown right.
boo
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No, they made the planes faster in order to avoid the gang altogether. However, if you do get caught and can't dive away, a Zeke has a better chance than a p51 in one vs many.
Yup, a low and slow P-51 is a dead plane flying if enemies are close to it whereas a low and slow A6M3 is still fighting back.
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I see what you are saying..... I guess.................. :confused:
except "getting caught low and slow" by the gang in anything you are dead..... :rolleyes:.......
fighting a true gang 5 or more vs 1...(how many of you guys actually do this...regular like... ;)....
no one will ever be able to convince me a turny bird has a better chance.....unless we are talking the latewar spitfire
I have fought the gang consistently for 7 years...I NEVER Bomb....I NEVER GV......its pretty much all I have done...
the faster plane always has a better chance of survival IMO
check out the K/D tallies I would bet my bottom dollar all the highest are the speed demons. Typhy...P51..262....190....
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Ink/jetsum I think we are talking about different things.
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Getting caught/surprised by a slow, more maneuverable plane in a much faster fighter is already massive, massive fail by the pilot. Oh dear the injustice if that situation leads to getting shot down...
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Zeeks are very much one-dimensional: force the opponent into a turnfight, if he cant run, he loses, you can be any poor, he can be any good, no matter what, he loses in 20 seconds to a very simple flat turn. All about SA because this aircraft does all the ACMs as quickly, the others dont have a chance to recover.
Same with the spits - but even more, they are fast too...
The Ki-84 at least requires some brain-usage to make it work well.
Felt much better in the 190, even though many were "trying" to run their pu$$tangs from this one too. lol. Winning a turnfight was actually a challenge, some more fun. Couldnt do anything and still win against anything.
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check out the K/D tallies I would bet my bottom dollar all the highest are the speed demons. Typhy...P51..262....190....
Absolutely. Checking this years a2a K/Ds, the top 20 is almost exclusively made up with planes that are much better at "flying straight" and keeping their E than wild turning (the only 'true' TnB plane in that list being the Ki-84 at #16 currently).
And the constantly lamented "overmodeled" Brewster is actually one of the biggest victims in the MA ;)
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The challenge in the A6M is SA.
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The challenge in the A6M is SA.
Figured. Never been interested in that. Maybe thats why i have never liked flying theese planes. Sorry for the off.
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Figured.
WTG!
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The slow turny planes are more survivable in a gang bang than the speedy planes. Speed will not help you if they got you slow enough to force you to maneuver. In the high wingloaded planes, if you are defeated - you are defeated. In a lo.w wingloaded plane you can still go nuts and spoil the shot for the one behind you, but you will never get away from him unless you kill him or he runs out of ammo.
SA and thinking about stuff definately helps. :)
Thinking and observing can be challenging...
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WTG!
Danke schön, ginkuie, mercy, spassiva, köszönöm, thank you very fricken much!
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I'm happy that I only need one....thx to Finnish veterans for that... :)
No spassiva here! :)