Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: mthrockmor on January 01, 2014, 10:23:30 AM
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I recently joined a Facebook group that is based on pictures of German planes from World War Two. They have a picture and description of the Ta-152 that states the firepower included the 30mm through the spinner plus 4 wing mounted guns. they could have 2 additional 30mm and 2 20mm or 4 20mm.
Is this accurate? If so, should not the Ta-152 get these gun package options?
boo
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None of the C models saw service.
Ta 152 C-0
Small wing, pre-production aircraft, 1 prototype built powered with 2,100-hp (1566 kW) Daimler Benz DB603LA engine. The extra length of this engine required a compensating rear fuselage plug and enlarged tail surfaces, and wing span was increased to 36 ft 1 in (11 meters).
Ta 152 C-1
Small wing, armed with one engine-mounted Motorkanone 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 108 cannon and four 20 mm synchronized MG 151/20 cannons (two above the engine, two in the wing roots).
Ta 152 C-2
Small wing, equipped with an improved radio.
Ta 152 C-3
Small wing, armed with one engine-mounted Motorkanone 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 103 cannon and four 20 mm synchronized MG 151/20 cannons (two above the engine, two in the wing roots).
Ta 152 E-1
Photographic reconnaissance version of the Ta 152C, with standard wing.
Ta 152 E-2
High-altitude version, powered by a Junkers Jumo 213E engine and with the H-series wing. But only a single prototype was completed.
Ta 152 H-0
Long wing, 20 pre-production aircraft.
Ta 152 H-1
The only production version. Long wing, armed with one engine-mounted Motorkanone 30 mm (1.18 in) MK108 cannon and two 20 mm synchronized MG 151/20 cannons in the wing roots, additional fuel tanks located in the wings.
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In one of my games called BTR I started building the Ta-152C-1, its a boat load of fun to rip through bomber formations with this while doing 460mph. However this was a prototype to retain the MG151's in the wings like a Fw-190, however as a prototype, it was never put into production.
It jumped to the Ta-152H which removed those wing mounted 20mm's
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None of the C models saw service.
Could you help me out, how many were built from the C-models and the H-1?
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Could you help me out, how many were built from the C-models and the H-1?
To my knowledge no C model was made except for a few experimental aircraft.
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To my knowledge no C model was made except for a few experimental aircraft.
I have seen pix of JG300's 152's and if you look closely you will see 2,ya 2 152 C's in the background.
When HTC has every plane flown during WW2 ingame I wouldnt mind seeing the F7f,F8f and 152 C considered for inclusion.
:salute
We could really use some high blown 109G's first though...IMHO.
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I have seen pix of JG300's 152's and if you look closely you will see 2,ya 2 152 C's in the background.
There was a photo a while back of allied soldiers who took photos of the JG300 airfield, it was posted on one of the sim websites (can't remember) it seemed like a ton more then just 2, I think the total was around 10 or so.
I think Kurt Tank gave them to JG300 to be tested, however after reading comments from Major Günther Rall he made no reference to these Ta-152's, and I could never find the original photo again.
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JG26 also had two 190D-13. One still exists and is under restoration. The C models JG300 had must have been prototypes pressed into service because the 152C was never cleared for production.
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There was a photo a while back of allied soldiers who took photos of the JG300 airfield, it was posted on one of the sim websites (can't remember) it seemed like a ton more then just 2, I think the total was around 10 or so.
I think Kurt Tank gave them to JG300 to be tested, however after reading comments from Major Günther Rall he made no reference to these Ta-152's, and I could never find the original photo again.
Yes in the photo there are about a dozen 152's but only 2 of them are 152C's with the short wingspan.
I understand they were likely the 2 prototypes that were pressed into service and that no production series airframes were built,however I was only pointing out that the couple that were made did go to a JG and were very likely flown.
:salute
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Is this the photo? If so, it is of JG301 machines at Stendal.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fhZZ63PRjhQ/S9bVM-IIH_I/AAAAAAAAA0c/ZQdpRErdOoY/s1600/ta152yellow1.jpg)
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Is this the photo? If so, it is of JG301 machines at Stendal.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fhZZ63PRjhQ/S9bVM-IIH_I/AAAAAAAAA0c/ZQdpRErdOoY/s1600/ta152yellow1.jpg)
Thats not the photo I was talking about,you're correct though that it was JG301 at Stendal and not JG300.
When I find some time I'll have to look through my PDF's to find it,still cant post pix but I'll try to reference it.
:salute
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There was some very late war Doras that got the broad tail of the 152. This would make Ta152Cs and Doras look very similar.
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There was some very late war Doras that got the broad tail of the 152. This would make Ta152Cs and Doras look very similar.
Most Doras started getting Fw190 parts and some Fw190s were getting 152 parts. It wouldn't surprise me to see a few Ta-152C's even with the 4x 20mms- the problem is just how many were made. I don't think it was simply a prototype, rather it was continuously upgraded and Tank put out as many as he could.
Ta-152C were in production, however one of the factories building the Ta-152C's was destroyed, along with most of the air frames and prototype C-5 models. This would explain why there are some 152C's out there, they just didn't produce enough and put into combat before they were destroyed.
Most of the later versions of the 152C had basically weapon and radio equipment modifications while in production, after they fixed the fuel tank stability issue of the C-0 and C-1.
I just managed to open my books, ill have to read up on it a little more, so far this is the first time i've read 152C's were in production, and it makes sense - given the Ta-152C-1 had a stability issue that was corrected Feb 27th 1945, there was not even a month to produce airframes before the war ended - not only that, the engines needed to be made as well as aviation fuel which were in very short supply.
I believe it was in production, but at this stage in the war, it would be impossible to get proof that it was/wasn't in production because of the bombings.
Here's some technical data:
(http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab56/Misconduc/fw.jpg)
(http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab56/Misconduc/152.jpg)
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There was some very late war Doras that got the broad tail of the 152. This would make Ta152Cs and Doras look very similar.
Agreed Milo,but the 152C has the air intake on the left similar to a 109. I'm still looking for that pic,I thought I found it in a Rappo publication but it was just the pic you posted but from a different angle so you dont see the bike laying beside the 152H.
:salute
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1 or 2 of the C prototypes was/were put into action.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,351620.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,351620.0.html)
The best gun package was/would have been on the B model.
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/e9746cba-b841-429c-887f-2d97e3395d73_zps25d6add1.png)
:cheers:
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1 or 2 of the C prototypes was/were put into action.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,351620.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,351620.0.html)
The best gun package was/would have been on the B model.
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/e9746cba-b841-429c-887f-2d97e3395d73_zps25d6add1.png)
:cheers:
It would of been a hell of a gun package, except it wasn't even a prototype, but a concept on paper. I can't imagine something like this in production, especially in production - imagine it in aces high? LOL Perk bomber murder...
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So, in looking at that last picture the length of the barrel on the two different 30mms suggests a much different velocity and thus trajectory. Is that accurate?
boo
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MK108 had a 23 inch barrel. What you are looking at is the pass through tube through the engine. The drawing is incorrect for the barrel\collet adaptor for bolting into the rear of the engine pass through tube that you are mistaking for a barrel. About where the neck down to the tube happens is where the MK108 barrel ends.
The barrel was 23 inches to keep the recoil at a minimum and why it had such poor ballistics. Only 500m\sec. Part of the recoil strategy was that the round was ignited before full battery to allow pressure to escape down the barrel.
MK108
(http://www.luft46.com/armament/mk108-6.jpg)
MK108, Barrel adaptor, pass through tube still connected. The tube enters into the rear end of the DB605 or Jumo 213E. The square flang bolts to the rear of the engine.
(http://www.lonesentry.com/ordnance/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/30-mm-mk-108-a-3-aircraft-machine-gun.jpg)
Note the rear of the engine is a square flange attached to the beginning of the engine pass through for mounting auto canon. That is where the square flange on the MK108 bolts to.
(http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/aeroenginespistoncutaways/images/5677/daimler-benz-db601n-cutaway.jpg)
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So, in looking at that last picture the length of the barrel on the two different 30mms suggests a much different velocity and thus trajectory. Is that accurate?
boo
If you are refering to the pic the mega posted,yes the hub gun is the Mk103 and the wing 30 mm are the Mk108's. The hubgun is the same as used on the 410 except it doesnt have the muzzle brake.
:salute
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I think the Ta-152C-5 was suppose to be armed with five MG 151/20mm. It was later changed to a engine mounted MK 103 and one MK 108 in each wing instead of the 20mm.
What I don't understand, this was to be named the TA 152 B-5? I'm guessing this is a mistake as a the correct would be TA 152 C-5.
The last version drawn up was the Ta 152C-1/R14 which was to be a torpedo bomber. Interestingly the RLM asked for a torpedo bomber in December 12th 1944, what's interesting is the FW-190 was also chosen to carry the torpedo. Kurt Tank designed both aircraft, Tank was going to build both the FW 190 F16/R-14 and the TA 152 C-1/R14 at the same time so he could test both, one of the issues was the directional stability of the massive torpedo.
Unfortunately he was planning on doing the mockup and test in March 1945, to late to be made, one thing that hindered the build of the ta-152 is the production did not start on the Ta 152C yet, also the factories being bombed destroyed his only mockup. I have the photo of the TA152C with DB603 LA, so I know the aircraft was built, unfortunately it was to late in the war.
Would of been interesting to see how it flew, I always knew there was a FW190 prototype for carrying a Torpedo, I had no clue Tank wanted both built to test them both.
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They also tested it earlier. 190A-5/U14.
(http://www.focke-wulf190.com/images/a5u14.jpg)
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They also tested it earlier. 190A-5/U14.
(http://www.focke-wulf190.com/images/a5u14.jpg)
What is the major differences between the 190A-5/U14 and the 190F-16/U14? I know the 190A5 was an earlier design that could of been in production but for whatever reason they didn't. The RLM asked for an upgraded version of the 190F/Ta-152 to carry a torpedo as well.
I do know the RTS wanted 20 152C's for testing on a broad scale of different weapon configurations, but due to the war situation it never happened, i.e the torpedo Ta-152 was being modified to carry the torpedo when the prototype was destroyed, there is a photo of it carrying a mock torpedo, but I cant find it.
I'm curious what the other gun packages/bomb configurations were going to be, I think the idea was having the Ta-152C as a medium alt attack plane, where the Ta-152H was a high alt fighter.
Unfortunately so late in the war, none of the prototypes or designs were made due to the war.
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The 190F-8/U2 and U3 were torpedo bombers. Also had torpedo sighting system fitted. Don't think they ever dropped a torp in anger though that late in the war. Perhaps against the Soviets in the Baltic.
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The 190F-8/U2 and U3 were torpedo bombers. Also had torpedo sighting system fitted. Don't think they ever dropped a torp in anger though that late in the war. Perhaps against the Soviets in the Baltic.
I'm not sure either, I read about the 190 with the torpedo, but haven't done any real reading on the 190F/G model to see if they dropped any torps in anger, it would be interesting to find out, I wouldn't mind this for scenarios if they were built and used in combat.
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I'm not sure either, I read about the 190 with the torpedo, but haven't done any real reading on the 190F/G model to see if they dropped any torps in anger, it would be interesting to find out, I wouldn't mind this for scenarios if they were built and used in combat.
AFAIK the 190's never used the torp. There were simply too many problems with it,the torps had to be altered,clipped lower fin,the tail wheel needed to be extended for clearance and this was a major issue as the tail wheel tended to fail.
That Jappo publication has a pic of the mockup 152 with a torp but again I think it was more a publicity stunt than a real effort to get it working.
Butcher,you mentioned that the 152G was supposed to be armed with outter 20mm,well it could mount either,just like our A8. Also that is a "B" in Mega's pic,they were to be the ground support versions.
:salute
PS: the ultimate 152 would have been armed with 4x 20 mm and 4xMk 108;s in the wings with the Mk103 as the motorcannon..... WOW!!!! :O
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My apologies, your drawing was for a Mk103M version that was "anticipated" with a smaller barrel profile and adjusted round to reduce recoil to allow use in the K4 and Ta152 variations. The only use of the Mk103 as a HUB cannon was in the Do355 due to the weight of the aircraft being able to absorb the recoil and the frontal size allowing the mounting.
As we know ultimately the Ta152 that made it to combat used a MK103 as the HUB cannon.
Given a few more months the HUB cannon would have been the Mauser MK 213 30mm revolver cannon which was the post war design source for ADEN cannons.
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/album/watermark.php?file=20356)
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Ahaaa!!
I found the MK108 adaptor for fitting into the DB605 and Jumo engines.
(http://i13.tinypic.com/2por338.jpg)
(http://www.lonesentry.com/ordnance/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/30-mm-mk-108-a-3-aircraft-machine-gun.jpg)
(http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/aeroenginespistoncutaways/images/5677/daimler-benz-db601n-cutaway.jpg)
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according to luftwaffe records in the excellent ta-152 book that came out a couple of years ago. besides the experimental and prototype ta-152c aircraft..... TWO production models were accepted by the luftwaffe.......they never flew in combat,and may have been destroyed while dispersed awaiting deployment to a sqaudron
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according to luftwaffe records in the excellent ta-152 book that came out a couple of years ago.
which is mostly taken from the from the OLD book.
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta152cpro_zps47c77b82.png)
:cheers:
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Here's some technical data:
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab56/Misconduc/fw.jpg (http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab56/Misconduc/fw.jpg)
Not to be nit picky :D but the document you posted references 2x20mm and 2x15mm ....page 8.
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta152290doc_zpsd86978cb.png)
:cheers:
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this is funny...not only do the records exsist..but so do the photo's exsist,that the ta-152 c was in production....... at least 2 ta152c saw service...and there was another version....an armed recon version of the ta-152c....designated ta-152E.......the problem,is in the last few months of the war,many records were destroyed,some adhoc units didnt keep detailed records. and other records were lost due to bombings or fire.....and so we dont have a paper record. we do have photos ande we do have first person accounts. these aircraft were used at the very end of the conflict and NOT in squad strength and therefore should not be in game. if you want to see pics of them during the war,or recovered after the war from combat areas...not at the factory...get the ta-152 book by thomas hitchcock. it is the best new book on the subject. it shows development,prototypes,pre production aircraft and production aircraft,during and after the war. some pics are from collection points after the war of combat aircraft,some of scrap heaps of combat aircraft....and some pics from the factory. if you really read this book,you will notice some other very interesting things....like a picture of an advanced fw190A 8?9? on the combat field for jg-301. jg-301 was a combat squadron and its aircraft used in combat. that fw-190A 8 or 9 or even 10...has never been identified as to what it actually is. and yet here it is at a combat field in jg301 livery. and so the point is,we do not know everything. but we do have to have some guidelines as to what can be used in game.
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but we do have to have some guidelines as to what can be used in game.
There are enough photos to prove it seen combat, it can be added in Aces. It wasn't unarmed prototypes like the Do-335, it was actual armed 152C's. Whether it was 2 or 50 it seen combat - this is the criteria needed to be added.
The whole argument whether it should be added is not debatable, it meets the criteria, however its going to be at the very botom of the list since the Ta-152 we have now is updated to standards, so the chances of the 152C is going to be a very long wait.
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If I'm not mistaken HTC's criteria is that the aircraft must have seen combat and served in squadron strength during the war. Two 152C's won't cut it.
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Yeah - but there were no operational P-47N , or F4U-4 units that saw combat in the ETO, either..
On the other hand He 162s did see combat, & recorded victory & loss stats..