Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: earl1937 on January 11, 2014, 10:45:51 AM
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:airplane: Really curious about what you guys would do in this situation! I am in a 51D, with about 40% fuel left, slight climbing attitude, about 200FPM, and I notice a 190D9 about 2 K behind me. I engage wep, look back and he is now still about 2k back. After about 3 or 4 mins in this config, he is now down to 1.75K and is becoming more apparent that I am going to have to engage this guy, or set there and let him kill me. I only have about 260 rounds of ammo left, so what ever I do, its got be good.
Now the question: What should I do to prevail over this guy?
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"A bandit on your six is better than no bandit at all" :old: :aok
Kill him! :D
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What altitude are you at?
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make good use of your flaps and try to get into a turn contest with him. Warning tho he has more excess power than you do.
Preferably if he's on my 6 I would like to start merging with him before 3K distance so I don't feel the penality for turning into him to much
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:airplane:
What altitude are you at?
:airplane: Sorry, was in a hurry and left out a couple of important items! Passing through 6500AGL, and IAS of 270/decreasing and when I noticed the bad guy, went level, engaged wep and accelerated to about 300IAS, then noticed he had closed to 1.75K distance.
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I would turn towards him while pushing my nose down for speed in prep for the first merge. If he has the lead turn then shoot past him with full throttle to reset your position something the mustang is about the best.
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While he was farther out I may have done a low G pull up and zoom up, reverse at the top and head back at him. Merge would prolly be me nose down and him nose up.
Or I may turn around going nose low, low G and either merge with him or set it up to try for an overshoot.
Or you could let him slowly crawl up your butt and then go for an overshoot.
Tally Ho!!!!
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I would turn towards him while pushing my nose down for speed in prep for the first merge. If he has the lead turn then shoot past him with full throttle to reset your position something the mustang is about the best.
:airplane: Gosh, been through this setup so many times in this game! I have turned into the guy, with nose down for speed, then he just split "S" on me as quick as a cat on a June bug, as I pass under him. I have tried going vertical, with a hammer head turn at top, hoping to get a "ho" on the way down, he turns off and I over shoot trying follow him.
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You're in a bad way then; at 6500 ft the Dora holds all the cards. You've also spent most of your WEP while he still has 5+ minutes. When your WEP runs out you'll be at an almost insurmountable disadvantage. Most people expect a Pony to run, (and you tried to do just that). By studying the performance charts on the HTC site you should have known you can't outrun a Dora below 10k ft. Unless you have friends nearby that you could run to for help you should have turned into him immediately after you spotted him and merged. Being aggressive even from a disadvantage can rattle the enemy and throw him off his game. However in that situation, if the Dora pilot is a good stick, your chances aren't great without outside intervention.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=44&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=44&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
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I fly 190s almost exclusively, and it is rare that a PonyD worries me. In fact, I relish a good 1v1 against a PonyD. The reason is not because the 190 is better than the PonyD in an overall 1v1 fight, it is because I know how to fight the 190 and most sticks have no clue how to fight the PonyD.
I would keep my speed high, pull a soft-G turn towards him, he'll close rapidly and then when he gets to 600m pull hard and drop two notches of flaps. No way he can turn with you and 99% chance he won't get a good snap shot. The moment he passes through, pull your flaps, flatten out and retain as much E as possible. You've got him to overshoot, now see what he does.
- If he goes verticle, watch where he goes and work for a couple more overshoots like I described. A few of those and you will end up on the deck, neutral speed and ready for a good 1v1 stall fight, which you should win.
- If he blows through, go into a good steady climb, work for altitude and head back to where you need to go. He'll run and you can't catch him.
- He may blow through, go out 4k and reset for another pass. This is why you grab for more alt. If he comes through again you may even have an alt advantage.
- If per chance he tries to slow down and turn with you on the first pass, you may have run into Pervert (in which case your SOL) or a noob who doesn't know any better. You are in danger until you get him to overshoot. Tight turns with two notches of flaps and he'll fall out pretty quickly. You can't roll/reverse with a 190 though use rudder to improve roll rate. The 190 will outroll you though in a rolling scissors you'll out turn the 190. Within two or three turns you'll be neutral and pushing the advantage.
A trick I've found with the PonyD is the speed climb. Set your speed climb to 260knts. At that speed you will climb at 2k/min and by 10k you'll be doing 300kts actual. That is plenty of speed to manuever and, if I am not mistaken, not on a Dora/K4/Tempest, etc can speed climb 260kts with a PonyD. They can go that fast, just not climb 2k/min while doing it. I love that feature of the PonyD.
My two overrated cents.
boo
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Unfortunately for the Pony, below 10k the Dora will out climb the Pony at any speed. Also between 13k and 21k.
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Scholz, we should test that. I've done the same thing in a Dora and it does not climb at 2k/min, around 1.5k/min.
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It should be physically impossible. At those altitude bands the Dora has spare power to climb even at the Pony's max level speed. It also handily out climbs the Pony at low speed. At no point in the speed curve below max level speed for the Pony and best climb speed for the Dora should the Pony climb better. If it does, it's magic! :)
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Hit the brakes, he'll fly right by.
ack-ack
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Scholz, you may need to test it out. I'm speaking of a set climb rate of 260mph, not at optimum climb speed. I'll test it again though the Dora has never out climbed the PonyD under that speed condition.
boo
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I realize that Mthrockmor, but the physics doesn't work like that. I'll test it when I reinstall AH sometime in the future (prolly when the gfx update is up).
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I suspect it has something to do with the dihedral wing design of the PonyD, which is designed for maximum speed.
If there was a chart that showed climb rate at various speeds I am presuming the ideal speed is in the 159knt range, though may change with altitude. 2k/min is not the maximum climb rate though the PonyD will do that (at least in the game) at 260knts, the Dora doesn't. I'll test them both again and post the results on the boards.
boo
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turn and engage as soon as he is spotted....a nose hi turn is better in my mind......
flaps are awesome in the 51 get them ready.....merge with him to get as close to a HO shot as possible without giving him a gun solution....if his left wing is high merge to his right and vice verse.....
when you get guns, take your shot, if you time it right you will kill the pilot and fight is over..if by chance he is still alive and stays fast climb into his direction......if he turns back into you..... he wants to fight....
now is the time to pop flaps and drop throttle.....fly to where he is gonna be and let him fly into your rounds. :aok
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I suspect it has something to do with the dihedral wing design of the PonyD, which is designed for maximum speed.
If there was a chart that showed climb rate at various speeds I am presuming the ideal speed is in the 159knt range, though may change with altitude. 2k/min is not the maximum climb rate though the PonyD will do that (at least in the game) at 260knts, the Dora doesn't. I'll test them both again and post the results on the boards.
boo
Make sure to do it at an altitude where the Dora is faster. Try .speed 260 autoclimb from the deck on WEP and measure the climb rate as both planes pass 4k ft; the Dora should out climb the Pony at any speed.
Btw. speeds in AH are in MPH not knots.
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I'll post tomorrow with WEP and without WEP from deck to 20k and attempt to track rate of climb at each 1k interval.
boo
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Without WEP the Dora will be inferior to the Pony at all altitudes.
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I feel like the P51D dominates the D9 in an maneuvering combat, leaving the D9 only with the run option....my 2c
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Not in my experience. Pony turns better, Dora climbs better (and thus regains E faster) and is faster at most combat alts in the MA.
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I would do a hard flat turn and try to get him to follow me (working to avoid the forward-quarter shot at the start of the engagement). If he sticks on you as you turn, I would keep the hard turn, and as he gets closer (400-600 yards depending on how his gun solution on me looks), drop one notch of flaps then perhaps one more if needed to keep out of his line of fire. The 190D can't deploy flaps until it gets very slow, so you can outturn him for a while. A good 190D pilot won't get trapped by that, but in his work not to get trapped by it, it can help equalize the engagement for you.
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Even if he gets trapped by following the Pony in a flat turn fight, it's not really a trap; if the Dora pilot smartens up he can easily escape the situation by spiral-climbing. The Dora will then be above the Pony and has regained the initiative.
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:airplane: Really curious about what you guys would do in this situation! I am in a 51D, with about 40% fuel left, slight climbing attitude, about 200FPM, and I notice a 190D9 about 2 K behind me. I engage wep, look back and he is now still about 2k back. After about 3 or 4 mins in this config, he is now down to 1.75K and is becoming more apparent that I am going to have to engage this guy, or set there and let him kill me. I only have about 260 rounds of ammo left, so what ever I do, its got be good.
Now the question: What should I do to prevail over this guy?
Force an overshoot, snapshot, and put a new zipper down the middle of his canopy. :salute
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Force an overshoot, snapshot, and put a new zipper down the middle of his canopy. :salute
:airplane: Wouldn't you know it, I had that very setup last night. What I did was roll into a 90 degree left bank, pushed forward on stick, started an outside turn back to right, then snapped left roll to vertical right bank, pulled hard on stick and there he was 600 out, trying to finished up the left turn he thought I was going to make with my first move. Didn't kill him, but smoked his engine and then one of this buddies drew my attention away, so don't know if I killed him or not, because his buddie, (GHI), had me dead to rights and down I went!
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:airplane: Gosh, been through this setup so many times in this game! I have turned into the guy, with nose down for speed, then he just split "S" on me as quick as a cat on a June bug, as I pass under him. I have tried going vertical, with a hammer head turn at top, hoping to get a "ho" on the way down, he turns off and I over shoot trying follow him.
"nose down" doesn't mean dive as fast as you can. As you turn back into him drop the nose a few degrees. This will build speed and give you a bit of vertical separation from the bad guy. You don't want to dive so much that he has the option for a split S. Your not going to be building a ton of speed quick but you WILL be adding to it.
2K is pretty close as well, but turning into him right away would work better than a chase were it really becomes too late to turn into him. Also, when you turn into him for the merge yo get to see what "he" wants to do, fight, bnz, be aggressive, be a wuss :devil If he is a wuss and stays on his perch and gives up E wearily the merge may give you bigger separation and and an escape opportunity if that is your choice (being low ammo).
Just running eats up your options, merging opens up doors.
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If he is 2K out that is enough separation to just turn around and kill it.
Then continue flying home while reading a book.
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My point is to win the first merge or recognize early you have lost the merge. If at the merge you are nose up and he is nose down you got him or at least you have the first shot. If he wins the first merge then you use the mustang speed to reset. Don't try to save a lost merge. Invest your E into a better position for the second merge.
Recognizing a lost merge is to me, a difficult decision if it is close call. I want to be aggressive but trying to beat a lost lead turn will get you shot down every time.
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My point is to win the first merge or recognize early you have lost the merge. If at the merge you are nose up and he is nose down you got him or at least you have the first shot. If he wins the first merge then you use the mustang speed to reset. Don't try to save a lost merge. Invest your E into a better position for the second merge.
Recognizing a lost merge is to me, a difficult decision if it is close call. I want to be aggressive but trying to beat a lost lead turn will get you shot down every time.
you seem to have the dora-P51 matchup backwards
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I did it, and the results are mixed.
I took off, 100% fuel, no drops, did auto climb to 200ft, leveled off and set rate of climb to 260. As soon as speed on the E6B hit 255 I hit autoclimb and let it go to work.
Without WEP the PonyD wins. With WEP the Dora wins.
In thinking about my perception prior to running this test I missed the most obvious factor of all. I never leave the field in a 190 without a drop tank. All the times I've flown the Dora and put it into speed climb I was dragging around that extra barrel of gas, causing weight and drag issues. Yes, I can be that observant. And because of the internal fuel load of the PonyD I rarely add drop tanks.
Good to know all the way around.
boo
PS In the 190 I always burn the 'fwd' tank first, down to 50% (if I'm traveling far) or 25% (if its based defense) then shift to drop tank. With the 'fwd' tank closer to empty the 190 is a better turn plane.
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Yeah, would really have been weird if the Pony out climbed the Dora. If you fancy another go, try the Pony at 25% fuel and the Dora at 50% or 75%. I think the Dora would still edge out the Pony, but you never know with the huge gas tank on the Pony...
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Yeah, would really have been weird if the Pony out climbed the Dora. If you fancy another go, try the Pony at 25% fuel and the Dora at 50% or 75%. I think the Dora would still edge out the Pony, but you never know with the huge gas tank on the Pony...
:airplane: Been an interesting thread about climb performance, but one thing that should be done to accurately reflect the climb rate is this: take off in the ponie, select aux tank, run it dry, land, then takeoff, establish a auto climb confg, then enter dot speed 152, then I think you will see the true climb performance of the 51D.
If you test the FW and the ponie with different ords load outs, the FW will probably out perform the 51 because of the different type of engine. The radial engines of that era were stronger, produced quicker torque, and handle weight a lot better than the in line engines. Grumman knew what they were doing when they produced all those great aircraft with radial engines instead of in lines.
The Allison and Packered inline engines were designed for one thing and one thing only, SPEED, which they did very well. I think I read somewhere, can't remember where, that Grumman tried a V-1650 in a F6F at one time, but can't remember results.
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By selecting 75% fuel load in the Pony you get empty aux tank, but full wing tanks. However, the Pony is usually flown with closer to 25% or 50% fuel in the MA due to its enormous endurance. Having 50% or even 75% in the Dora should make for a more realistic comparison of in-game performance.
The Fw 190D-9 "Dora" only looks like it has a radial engine because of the annual radiators mounted in front of the engine. Unlike the A-series which was powered by a BMW radial engine, the D-series had the Junkers Jumo 213 inverted V-12.
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Yeah, would really have been weird if the Pony out climbed the Dora. If you fancy another go, try the Pony at 25% fuel and the Dora at 50% or 75%. I think the Dora would still edge out the Pony, but you never know with the huge gas tank on the Pony...
The WEP on the Dora is a monster. It added roughly 750ft/min climb rate and lasted all the way to 15k. (Actually, I took all tests to 16k because at 15k the wind kicked in and caused fluctuations in climb rate. By 16k it had stabilized again.) The PonyD WEP stopped about 10,300 feet though cooled down and I kicked it in about 14,200 feet.
boo
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Yeah, the water-injected rides have a lot of WEP power.
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Yeah, the water-injected rides have a lot of WEP power.
:airplane: This is not about the thread, but just wanted to say thanks for your technical info, I find it to be right on, and useful! Thanks :salute
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Happy to :salute