Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Nefarious on March 24, 2014, 09:36:55 PM
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Am I cornfused? I thought by the discussion on the BBS that the Yak 3 is "better" than than the -9.
Which aircraft is more feared by it's historical competition? meaning Fw190 A and D and Bf 109G and K.
Yak 9 seems faster, Yak 3 has better climb... Any help? Opinions?
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I'm no expert though what I've read is the Germans were OK with the 9s speed, it was the turning ability mixed with solid speed that caused concern with the 3. One posted noted German high command told pilots to avoid the 3.
Just what I've read...
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You will need to create a list of differences to how all of the aircraft in question were flown in ww2 versus how we fly them here in Aces High.
I will start it.
Yak3
-------------Real World ----------- Aces High
Deaths--------- 1 ----------------- Unlimited
Physics---- unforgiving ------------- Fixed, predictable
With unlimited deaths and a predictable physical environment to wax on and wax off over and over and over. You will eventually learn to dance your heart out all night long in ACMy bliss. The most unpredictable aspect of the game is the Internet. I believe more ww2 pilots were killed visa accidents of all kinds versus killed by enemy activity.
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Yes Yak 3 is better and later Yak variant.
The major difference between Yak-3 and Yak-9 is its weight and size, having the same engine Yak-3 is lighter and smaller - it is one of the smallest WW2 fighters.
Looking at pure AH statistics
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Yak-3 - 1.08
Yak-9U - 0.88
To be honest... I like all the Yaks in the game when they fight against the planes of same period.
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Our Yak 9U has a VK-107 1,500 hp, while our Yak 3 has a VK-105 1,300 hp.
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Physics in the real world unpredictable? Great!, maybe there is hope for FTL travel after all :devil
You will need to create a list of differences to how all of the aircraft in question were flown in ww2 versus how we fly them here in Aces High.
I will start it.
Yak3
-------------Real World ----------- Aces High
Deaths--------- 1 ----------------- Unlimited
Physics---- unforgiving ------------- Fixed, predictable
With unlimited deaths and a predictable physical environment to wax on and wax off over and over and over. You will eventually learn to dance your heart out all night long in ACMy bliss. The most unpredictable aspect of the game is the Internet. I believe more ww2 pilots were killed visa accidents of all kinds versus killed by enemy activity.
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Yes Yak 3 is better and later Yak variant.
Actually Yak-9U became operational later than Yak-3...
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Am I cornfused? I thought by the discussion on the BBS that the Yak 3 is "better" than than the -9.
Which aircraft is more feared by it's historical competition? meaning Fw190 A and D and Bf 109G and K.
Yak 9 seems faster, Yak 3 has better climb... Any help? Opinions?
"Better" depends on what. In a knife fight, the -3 is better, period. The main advantage of the -9U is speed and performance at altitude. The difference is not big enough to compensate for the better handling and insane helicopter properties of the -3, so it is considered overall "better" by most players.
I think that in real life the -9U also had some armor, while the -3 had practically none. In the game however, I find the Yak-3 to be one of the most difficult fighters to bring down in terms of the number of hits required. Probably the result of its small size and the way AH damage model assigns the damage to different components.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=131&p2=24&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
Physics in the real world unpredictable? Great!, maybe there is hope for FTL travel after all :devil
He said "unforgiving" not "unpredictable".
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Actually Yak-9U became operational later than Yak-3...
Huh? Citation pls
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Yak3's E retention is out of this world. :old:
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I keep thinking the yaks and Las would be much more prone to pilot wounds since the lack of armor. Or maybe I just keep wishing.
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I keep thinking the yaks and Las would be much more prone to pilot wounds since the lack of armor. Or maybe I just keep wishing.
The Yaks are.
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They are very much like the debate regarding the 109F-4 vs 109G-2. Ultimately, one has more speed and the other has more maneuverability.
All things considered, I prefer the -9U, it has more range and is faster. Range being the bigger factor. They handle very similar with a slight edge going to the -3 in the in close knife fights.
Which Yak model is "better" for a said task should be the discussion, not "which plane is best".
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AH Yak3 soak up more damage than any other single engine plane in the game, the old yak-9 used to be the damage champ before yak-3 entered the late war arena.
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AH Yak3 soak up more damage than any other single engine plane in the game, the old yak-9 used to be the damage champ before yak-3 entered the late war arena.
This has been my observation as well, but it needs to be tested by some means before complaints about it will be taken seriously.
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I think I find 109G14 an equal match to Yak 3.
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Huh? Citation pls
Yak-9U first got operational with the 42nd GIAP in August '44 while Yak-3 was being delivered in early spring/summer '44 and was flying in combat in June '44.
Source: Yakovlev's Piston Engined Fighters by Gordon & Khazanov
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I think I find 109G14 an equal match to Yak 3.
Hmm.... In certain areas maybe, such as climb on mil power maybe. Otherwise the -3 is noticeably better in speed, turn, roll, and very noticeably better in forgiveness. Th G-14 wins in versatility for sure (jabo, bomber hunter/killer, AND a fighter). Not to mention a raw firepower advantage (30mm, triple 20mm, an more ammo in the single 20mm).
I think those two planes are worlds apart, actually.
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I think I find 109G14 an equal match to Yak 3.
The Yak-3 is superior to a 109G-14. Will fly circles around it. You need a 109G-2 or F-4 to have a chance. That said, I have no trouble with either, if E states start equal.
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AH Yak3 soak up more damage than any other single engine plane in the game, the old yak-9 used to be the damage champ before yak-3 entered the late war arena.
This has been my observation as well, but it needs to be tested by some means before complaints about it will be taken seriously.
Both the yak3 and the Brewster are very durable fighters in the game - surprisingly so given their low weight and lack of armor. In case of the yak-3 I've seem some incredible cases of soaking many hits from multiple opponents with minor damage only. So much so, that I saved the films and had to watch it offline to believe it. Network glitches cannot be ruled out, but it seems common with the yak3. I don't meet enough yak9u to tell which yak is more durable, though in theory the 9u should be.
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Yak-7b is the best!
That is all! :old:
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Both the yak3 and the Brewster are very durable fighters in the game - surprisingly so given their low weight and lack of armor. In case of the yak-3 I've seem some incredible cases of soaking many hits from multiple opponents with minor damage only. So much so, that I saved the films and had to watch it offline to believe it. Network glitches cannot be ruled out, but it seems common with the yak3. I don't meet enough yak9u to tell which yak is more durable, though in theory the 9u should be.
Right right, but there are going to have to be multiple films of controlled tests before anything is done about it I'd wager. I'd suggest a test involving single 20mm hits to the wing root to determine the number it takes to remove it, and doing the same thing to a Jug for comparison.
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AH Yak3 soak up more damage than any other single engine plane in the game
Thats just perception. Its a very small target and a lot of rounds (sprayed in the usual manner by planes with more guns and a lot more ammo) miss. I would say it takes damage averagely and certainly no better than say a Spit does. Listen on CH200 and every plane and GV in the game gets that accusation thrown at it at some point..."I hit him with this and that and this and that happened"...
The Yak-3 is the better fighter below 14k. The only thing the Yak-9U has on it is speed at alt which in AH type combat does not last long as most fights tend to go low very fast. Yak-3 is as fast and outclimbs the Yak-9U and turns better as well. Endurance is similar in both. Guns the same. Not a lot of reasons to pick a Yak-9U over a Yak-3.
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Thats just perception. Its a very small target and a lot of rounds (sprayed in the usual manner by planes with more guns and a lot more ammo) miss.
Actually I think this is partially a function of the very real limitations of the damage model. You shoot a burst at a very large plane-every single round counts towards damaging "wing root" and the wing falls off. You shoot a similar burst at a very small plane-some of these rounds end up on counting towards damage not only on "wing root" but possibly also on "outboard wing" and/or flap, aileron, fuselage, etc. I believe this can lead to a Yak being harder to fatally damage than a P-47 or other large tough craft, when in actuality if anything the smaller craft is more likely to suffer badly from a burst of fire than a larger one, all other factors being equal. This is all assuming that the Yaks aren't unusually tough, which proposition I would still like to see tested. I know I have landed 190 20MM sprites on a Yak walking from spinner to tail tip with no smoke, no damage, and no overt sign the pilot was wounded. Something similar happened the last time I fought a Yak3 with Yak3, albeit there were fewer cannons in operation that time.
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Yak-7b is the best!
That is all! :old:
I was fooled into thinking this was a zack post!
This is an outrage! :old:
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The Yak-3 is superior to a 109G-14. Will fly circles around it. You need a 109G-2 or F-4 to have a chance. That said, I have no trouble with either, if E states start equal.
In-game I seem to keep up with them in left-biased turning fights + flaps dropped + throttle mgmt and auto-trim off.
The moment the yaks initiates right bias I break off then wep to regain speed or alt quick.
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I think those two planes are worlds apart, actually.
I was thinking of how they were both used in the east front.
In the east the G14 was pure fighter and no gondolas
In the west G14 was tasked as pure fighter and a bomber killer.
If there was a german fighter in the east front that can keep up with later yaks it would be the G14.
I don't think yak3 (irl) ever saw the superior 109K and 190D because they're kept as western front exclusive bomber interceptors or covers for 262's when taking off or landing.
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Actually I think this is partially a function of the very real limitations of the damage model. You shoot a burst at a very large plane-every single round counts towards damaging "wing root" and the wing falls off. You shoot a similar burst at a very small plane-some of these rounds end up on counting towards damage not only on "wing root" but possibly also on "outboard wing" and/or flap, aileron, fuselage, etc. I believe this can lead to a Yak being harder to fatally damage than a P-47 or other large tough craft, when in actuality if anything the smaller craft is more likely to suffer badly from a burst of fire than a larger one, all other factors being equal. This is all assuming that the Yaks aren't unusually tough, which proposition I would still like to see tested. I know I have landed 190 20MM sprites on a Yak walking from spinner to tail tip with no smoke, no damage, and no overt sign the pilot was wounded. Something similar happened the last time I fought a Yak3 with Yak3, albeit there were fewer cannons in operation that time.
This is my take on the damage model making small planes tougher as well.
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I was fooled into thinking this was a zack post!
This is an outrage! :old:
I am Zack!! :old:
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I was thinking of how they were both used in the east front.
In the east the G14 was pure fighter and no gondolas
In the west G14 was tasked as pure fighter and a bomber killer.
If there was a german fighter in the east front that can keep up with later yaks it would be the G14.
I don't think yak3 (irl) ever saw the superior 109K and 190D because they're kept as western front exclusive bomber interceptors or covers for 262's when taking off or landing.
Ah, I see your position now. In WWII on the Ost Front, comparing any of the Soviet aircraft and German aircraft MUST include the training of the pilots, tactics used, and ROI/SOP in terms of combat is far different that what we do in the Aces High realm. THEY are worlds apart indeed. In actuality, on the Ost Front I don't think the two planes were as apart as they are in AH for the reasons mentioned above.
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Huh? Citation pls
:O chevrolet don't make those anymore.
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Ah, I see your position now. In WWII on the Ost Front, comparing any of the Soviet aircraft and German aircraft MUST include the training of the pilots, tactics used, and ROI/SOP in terms of combat is far different that what we do in the Aces High realm. THEY are worlds apart indeed. In actuality, on the Ost Front I don't think the two planes were as apart as they are in AH for the reasons mentioned above.
Forgot to add when I said "pure fighter" it meant cowl guns and nose cannon only for G14.
To me the level of difficulty of trying to kill another fighter while flying yak3 and 109g14 is the same. While the yak is indeed easier to fly, you still need to get real close and make 110% sure to land those rounds right because of high ROF ShVAKs and is notoriously short clipped. Only gunnery skills is what seperates good yak pilot to mediocre. 109 in comparison takes too much work in comparison but it's still possible to take it near the edge against yaks and you get the "luxury" of spraying its cowl guns (2x mg 131) and nose cannons (mg 151).
I know it's not saying much good about later 109s but the in-game G14 (pure fighter config.) to me is as maneuverable as g6 with better stability (taller tail?) and feel more confident taking it near the (slow) edge of envelope than the K4.
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Forgot to add when I said "pure fighter" it meant cowl guns and nose cannon only for G14.
To me the level of difficulty of trying to kill another fighter while flying yak3 and 109g14 is the same. While the yak is indeed easier to fly, you still need to get real close and make 110% sure to land those rounds right because of high ROF ShVAKs and is notoriously short clipped. Only gunnery skills is what seperates good yak pilot to mediocre. 109 in comparison takes too much work in comparison but it's still possible to take it near the edge against yaks and you get the "luxury" of spraying its cowl guns (2x mg 131) and nose cannons (mg 151).
I know it's not saying much good about later 109s but the in-game G14 (pure fighter config.) to me is as maneuverable as g6 with better stability (taller tail?) and feel more confident taking it near the (slow) edge of envelope than the K4.
Actually, I suggest you do more testing between the G-6 and G-14. The G-6 is probably the most stable of the 109's and lags behind the G-14 in every category save for sustained turn rate, iirc. On mil power the G-14 has a lot going for it, with the 10 minute+ WEP it turns from Bruce Banner to Hulk.
The G-6 is not nearly as torquey, and it doesn't dip that left wing so easily. The G-6 just seems to me smooooth, for a 109. ;)
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My nickname for the G6 is "The Bus"
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Russian airplane in general take a lot more ammo to kill. I am saying this from flying the ki43 and shooting airplanes in the same place (wing root). Spits, wings come off very easy. Jugs, mustangs... easy. German airplanes... easy. Russian airplanes, most of the ammo load.
I have no doubt in my mind that the damage model HTC uses for the airplanes is accurate, I understand Russian airplane to have been built a little more ruggedly then other nations.
So when flying against Russian airplanes, I just aim for the cockpit. The yak3 reminds me of fighting a spiteen.
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Russian airplane in general take a lot more ammo to kill. I am saying this from flying the ki43 and shooting airplanes in the same place (wing root). Spits, wings come off very easy. Jugs, mustangs... easy. German airplanes... easy. Russian airplanes, most of the ammo load.
I have no doubt in my mind that the damage model HTC uses for the airplanes is accurate, I understand Russian airplane to have been built a little more ruggedly then other nations.
So when flying against Russian airplanes, I just aim for the cockpit. The yak3 reminds me of fighting a spiteen.
There is no way in hell a Yak was in reality more resistant to damage than the Jug. Artifact of the damage model.
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Yak3 was not well armoured IRL, and it should not be in AH.
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Yak3 was not well armoured IRL, and it should not be in AH.
It isn't. Its durability is an artifact of its small size causing hits to be spread over multiple damage areas.
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It isn't. Its durability is an artifact of its small size causing hits to be spread over multiple damage areas.
I agree with this. Its far more at risk of pilot wounds then many would think. Not only is it small but it seems to blend in with most backgrounds. Its just not a big airplane and its responsive making it difficult to pin down in a long burst. I would not even rate it near the "toughest". As for the spiteen? If you lose to a Yak in one either that Yak stick was much better then you or you did something wrong.
The spiteen has a lot of advantage in turn, climb,guns, and most of all acceleration. I'd bet its roll and dive is close enough as well. Not to say the better guy in the Yak 3 wont win but the spiteen has advantage in almost every category. The exception might be, might be, if the fight is managed in the 200 to 250 mph bubble.
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It isn't. Its durability is an artifact of its small size causing hits to be spread over multiple damage areas.
QFT. The toughness of such small planes should be scaled on down to compensate, IMO.
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The one without the oil cooler.
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The one without the oil cooler.
It has an oil cooler, it's just not under the nose (wing root inlet).